It's hard to see Australia as a totally corrupt nation. Where do you think we sit alongside other countries?
Obviously we're not a totally corrupt nation. By global standards, we're a governed liberal democracy with strong institutions. [The report] isn't about saying we're a corrupt nation. But it is about looking at how we're going. Australia's ranking and score on Transparency International's Corruption Perception Index has declined substantially since 2012. We went from 7th to 13th place in terms of lists of countries. But ranking of countries is really a conversation starter. The points score is more important: that we've gone from 85 to 79 [out of 100].