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Apr 9, 2014

A hard case of harmful speech: should we ban anti-vaccination talk?

There are better examples of speech that causes harm than the ones we're debating in relation to the Racial Discrimination Act. What about the anti-vaxxers?

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While the government’s proposals to amend section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act have prompted considerable debate, it hasn’t been particularly useful debate — plenty of heat and not much light, as Tim Soutphommasane described it, and people taking more or less standard positions — the Left strongly opposed, middle-aged white men (like me) supportive.

One interesting feature is that Holocaust denialism has emerged as a totemic example of what is supposedly beyond the pale in public debate. Labor repeatedly challenged the government to explain whether Holocaust denialism would be allowed under the new laws, if enacted; this week, Fairfax asked us to be alarmed that the changes proposed by Attorney-General George Brandis would allow Holocaust denialism, according to advice to the New South Wales government.

Holocaust denialism is the vile ranting of anti-Semites, and no doubt profoundly wounding both to Holocaust survivors and their families. But Australia doesn’t have a problem of Holocaust denialism: whenever the issue has been raised, the same example is always cited. Europe has a problem with Holocaust denialism, yes — and it’s outlawed in Germany — but Australia doesn’t. We may have a problem with anti-Semitism, but it doesn’t take the form of Holocaust denialism.

Moreover, it is seem to be the kind of case that the government’s changes to 18C seem designed to address. It is offensive and deeply wounding, but it does not cause or urge direct and demonstrable harm in the way an anti-Semite urging violence against Jews would — the sort of speech that, by and large, everyone is in agreement should be prohibited. That may not be the case in Germany, where there are demonstrated links between Holocaust denialism and neo-Nazism, which may well lead to violence against Jews, but even in that instance we’re talking about an indirect harm.

As Soutphommasane has correctly explained, there’s rampant inconsistency in all this. The Abbott government isn’t racing to remove prohibitions on all language short of urgings to violence in Parliament, for example. It isn’t even racing to remove much more significant impediments to free speech, like defamation law.

But what sort of speech should be banned, if we agree that all speech short of that which leads to, or is intended to cause, actual harm, is permitted?

Let’s do a quick check of recent history. There was the Keating government’s assault on free speech, when it outlawed Albert Langer’s urging of voters to vote in a way that was formal but didn’t allocate preferences. Langer was later injuncted from campaigning about it, and was actually jailed for contempt of court. The prohibition was later removed and the loophole that Langer exploited was fixed, but not before Langer had spent three weeks in jail purely for advocating a particular method of voting.

And it was on the watch of then-attorney general Philip Ruddock that online discussion of euthanasia — or “counseling suicide” as it was described in legislation — was banned in 2005, primarily to stop the activities of Dr Philip Nitschke, who continues to be harried by authorities to this day because of it. Discussing euthanasia is plainly not the urging of harm on others, but informing people of options if they themselves wish to end their lives.

Ruddock also refused to remove the old crime of sedition from his overhauled anti-terror laws, despite a review he himself commissioned recommending he do so; indeed, Ruddock significantly expanded the offence of urging the overthrow of the government or urging violence within the community, removing conditions relating to intention and actual violence resulting from a statement. Labor dumped the offence entirely when Kevin Rudd became prime minister, and the Abbott government — so far — has not indicated a wish to restore sedition, however much it appears to want to return to the 18th century.

“… there’s a particular form of speech in Australia that does, demonstrably, cause harm: anti-vaccination propaganda.”

That brings us to the example of Islamic extremist Belal Khazaal, jailed for 12 years in 2012 for cutting and pasting together a sloppy e-book of material supporting jihad. Khazaal was jailed because of one of the Howard government’s draconian anti-terror laws, s.101.5 of the Criminal Code, which makes it an offence to collect or make a document that “is connected with preparation for, the engagement of a person in, or assistance in a terrorist act” — even if it’s not intentional.

To his considerable credit, Chris Berg is probably the only non-lawyer to sound the alarm about what happened to Khazaal. “Words are cheap,” Berg wrote in 2012. “The Anarchist Cookbook provides more technical detail than Khazaal offered, and is free to read across the internet. Belal Khazaal may be a bad guy. He may deserve to be in prison … But if he deserves to be in prison in Australia, he deserves to be there for a greater crime than making an e-book.”

Khazaal’s case admittedly gets us close to the boundary of speech that urges people to harm others, even if “cake throwing” and “hitting with a hammer” sounds more like a Warner Bros cartoon than jihad. It’s the lack of specificity that’s the problem with Khazaal’s literary effort, since he urged violence against, well, most of the Western world. And, as Berg notes, it’s hard to say what particular harm has come from Khazaal’s work, especially given the source material is still available online. If you’re an incipient jihadist, it’s unlikely Provision in the Rules of Jihad is the dangerous material radicalising you.

But there’s a particular form of speech in Australia that does, demonstrably, cause harm: anti-vaccination propaganda. Unlike other forms of denialism, vaccination denialism kills. It has a provable body count, in terms of the number of children who die from preventable diseases either because their own parents have refused to vaccinate them, or because, despite their own parents doing the right thing and vaccinating them, they were exposed to an unvaccinated child while only partially protected, or because they were babies too young for their shots and they have been exposed to unvaccinated children.

To the extent that the lies of anti-vaccination campaigners influence a small number of parents to not vaccinate their children, it leads to the deaths of children from preventable diseases and leads to the illnesses and hospitalisation of others. It is speech that causes harm — and death.

On that basis, should anti-vaccination speech be banned? It’s a hard case: one is loath to add to the conspiracy theories and sense of persecution of people who are either sublimely stupid or who in their inner-suburban affluence believe they’re too good for vaccination, and don’t want to be part of any herd whose immunity is critical. Moreover, in many cases anti-vaxxers genuinely believe the lies they spout about Big Pharma conspiracies, autism and chemicals. None of them mean to cause harm; they just wilfully refuse to see the harm they cause.

A better response might be to stop facilitating denialism first before starting to ban it. The denialist “Australian Vaccination Network” was forced to change its name and recently (finally) lost its charity status. Queensland Health Minister Lawrence Springborg has commendably raised the issue of making it significantly harder for parents to claim “conscientious objection” status. We should go further and ensure parents who, without medical approval (some kids can’t be vaccinated safely), refuse vaccination do not receive family tax benefits, as proposed by Kevin Rudd before last year’s election. The media — especially television networks — could stop pretending there’s a “debate” about vaccination. That might help stop the death toll inflicted by the anti-vaccination lobby better than banning what they say.

But it’s odd that we’re talking about other examples of harmful speech when there’s a much more pressing one right under our noses.

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134 comments

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134 thoughts on “A hard case of harmful speech: should we ban anti-vaccination talk?

  1. Limited News

    I don’t think it would be a good idea to ban discussion of the possible link between vaccines containing substances derived from peanut oil, and the recent rise of deadly nut allergies in children. If anyone knows of documents describing all the ingredients in children’s vaccines, so that parents can give informed consent, please post a link. Thanks.

  2. beachcomber

    Good logic. Being part of society involves accepting certain rules. We generally drive within the rules, behave towards each other appropriately, and reluctantly pay our share of taxes. Vaccination is a group responsibility, and is only effective with almost universal immunisation. Those that choose not to participate in a free service for community protection put everyone at risk.

    Climate Change Deniers and Sceptics are another group that peddles lies that threaten the safety of others. The storms and floods wreaking havoc about the globe are becoming more frequent and more severe as the oceans warm. More deaths will result with every year that we fail to act. Accepting the science, and failing to give these fruit loops the coverage that they don’t deserve, is long overdue.

  3. Sammy Harry

    Would we also ban the class actions against vaccines?

  4. David Hand

    Vaccination issues do not require any limitation on free speech.

    Though such opinion is demonstrably harmful, the countermeasures taken, forcing the name change of the lunatic fringe activist group along with its charity status, show that action is possible without the sledgehammer of limiting free speech.

    Getting schools and child care centres to enact policies requiring vaccination for attendees will stop the absurd fad in its tracks.

  5. Rourke

    I think somewhere a non sequitur appeared … ah, yes, the part where criminalising anti-vaccination speech would actually help anything. To be clear: I am a firm vaccination advocate. Would you ban these things … ?

    1. A grieving mother lashing out because her son’s vaccination caused debilitating illness (very rare, but it does happen)
    2. Discussion of the costs & benefits of something like the varicella vaccine, against an overwhelmingly mild disease (chickenpox) but with associated increase in a less mild disease (shingles)
    3. Reports of vaccine trials where the results were not great

    We’re a long way from terrorism here.

  6. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    A few months ago, maybe a year or so, ABC Media Watch showed a greatest hits collection of Alan Jones’ quotes from around the time of the Cronulla riots. On the face of it, some of these quotes from Jones’ radio show would have to come close to hate speech. Has anyone ever considered whether these statements would be acceptable under a revised 18C?

  7. Sharkie

    Much of the 18C debate takes the position that the consequences of racial and religious vilification can be summed up by the phrase “hurt feelings”. Brandis bandies about this nonsense on a regular basis.
    In this article BK ignores the fact that racial and religious vilification has consequences for minorities in terms of economic empowerment. Try getting a lease, loan or job interview if your name is Mohamed, Ali or Fatimah. I’m tipping people with names like George, Andrew, or Alan don’t even consider the economic impacts on minorities of their words or actions.

  8. Jeff McIlwain

    some would say it’s the not the speech but rather the action of not-vaccinationing which causes the harm. if i tell you to jump off a bridge and you do it whose fault is it?

  9. Jeff McIlwain

    as opposed to the 18c business, where it is the speech itself which causes harm

  10. Altakoi

    No-one draws a distinction between freedom of speech, which was originally the right to express a view freely, and freedom to publish, which would be the freedom to use technical means to amplify your speech in the public domain. Until the internet this didn’t matter as much as it does now, since publishing any view to massive numbers of people has virtually no cost. So you could ban dissemination of views via certain means – the internet – without impairing a persons freedom to hold them, or talk the leg of anyone who will listen per se.

  11. bushby jane

    I’m with Tim S. who really knows what he is talking about, as opposed to Tim W. who thinks ‘free speech’ is fine except if we be nasty to/about his male partner. There are lots of instances like anti-vaccination groups, such as anti-flouridation groups, who peddle untruths to support their stances that could be cited as Bernard has. Is he right? Don’t know, only that George Brandis contradicted himself by banning a book from somewhere in the past didn’t he? No credibility, all it’s about is supporting Andrew Bolt, who doesn’t even seem to realise what he was in trouble for.

  12. Jack07

    really?
    You’re suggesting that it should be made illegal to raise any questions or concerns regarding vaccinations?
    really?
    Perhaps that should be extended to psychotic drugs too, ’cause if people don’t take them they may end up causing harm to others.
    And what about gun advocates, they need to be silenced as well.
    Wow, even if the vaccine debate was a black and white issue (which it certainly ain’t contrary to the opinion expressed above)you really believe that the govt has the right to tell us what we cant discuss, really?

  13. David Brooks

    Naturally, had the writer been talking about “Freedom of the Press” the outlook would have been different. It is almost ingenious to lump freedom of speech with questions about vaccination: and not get either right!
    Clearly the two subject are deserving of separate articles. Let’s tackle the question begging.

    It is plain that some children react to vaccination, even to death. The postulations of the writer do not appear to protect them. They are, after all only a minority, and like all minorities, the aborigines, the jews, left handers etc., are disposable. And the State is renowned for taking care of those harmed by its actions, as are the companies promoted by the State! So the issue is settled. The herd mentality is promoted, but will it reign? The article below comes from, I believe, the most impeccable source. It is dated March 2014.

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422%2813%2970278-3/fulltext
    “The developing human brain is uniquely vulnerable to toxic chemical exposures, and major windows of developmental vulnerability occur in utero and during infancy and early childhood.8 During these sensitive life stages, chemicals can cause permanent brain injury at low levels of exposure that would have little or no adverse effect in an adult.”

    And, it seems, Mr. Keane would like to shut up any opposition to his opinion. Even The Lancet? Mr. Keene, this is one of the reasons government hates the internet! It is difficult to stop people talking; do you really believe that making such talk illegal will stop it? Such talk will simply go underground, and there it is much more dangerous than in the open

  14. Indiana Jones

    In a similar vein, RN was giving air time to homeopaths at about 845 this morning.

  15. Damian Thompson

    I think that if they decide to not vaccinate – then medical care from the following disease should be charged at incredibly high rates to ensure that they then don’t do it again.

    Or, deny them any public health coverage at all.

  16. Simon Mansfield

    Dispensing homeopathics to people under 18 should be illegal other than when prescribed by a psychiatrist as a fancy placebo.

    I still find it ironic that almost everyone in Bryon Shire who does not believe in vaccinating their kids (apx 30% of local parents) votes Green when they bother to vote – and worries deeply about climate change – before getting in their poorly serviced 4WD that smoke burnt oil to tool out to Bentley to oppose CSG.

  17. Jeff McIlwain

    if you want to ban antivax propoganda then you also have to ban the bible, and koran, and torah, and news corp, and fairfax, and tv, and advertisements, and video games and etc.

    and the internet. actually, just ban everything it’s easier.

  18. Nev7989

    I have news for Bernard Keane. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and very often full of shit! RE his opinion of some anti-vaxxers believing the lies they spout about big Pharma conspiracies, autism and chemicals well what qualifications or research does Bernard have to make this claim they are lies in the first place. I can tell Bernard categorically there is a mountain of evidence that there is conspiracies of big Pharma to make big money at the expense of public health, if you know where to look. These big Pharma have money to burn and can make sure that the truth is kept in a very dark place and if you are scientist or doctor who speaks out your career is over.

    Bernard also has the opinion that Holocaust denialism is the vile rantings of anti-Semite’s. Well I can say with some certainty that Bernard’s opinion is one not based on facts but rather consensus. If you look at facts the Holocaust is not what it is made out to be and the so-called Holocaust deniers are not denying it happened but are disputing the accepted, not proven and so-called facts and the many have attacked the few who have the guts to present other facts. Since when has telling the facts that certain people don’t like been anti anything.

    The other point is that since when do other people’s opinions like the anti-vaxxers whether right or wrong need to be regulated if it is not inciting hatred or harm. You argue it is causing harm but most likely know little about the complexities of this subject and people can make up their own minds and just like most opinions they are not conclusive so don’t imply they are.

  19. Chris Hartwell

    Simple Nev – the even more vast mountains of evidence suggesting the safety and efficacy of vaccinations. And the fact that the so-called evidence of a link between autism and vaccinations (specifically the Measles-Mumps-Rubella vaccine) has been demonstrated to be falsified by Wakefield when no other researchers were able to reproduce his results.

    In reality, it’s like the climate “debate” – there are cranks claiming that, basically, “SCEINCE HASS BIN WRONG BEFUR!” as though that somehow invalidates research conducted. It doesn’t. There is no debate – there is evidence.

  20. john2066

    Except as Bernard says, the anti-vax crowd has a measurable body count.

    I know I know, you’ve ‘looked at all the evidence’ and ‘worked it out for yourselves’ but you haven’t really, you’ve just decided you’re far too precious and self-important for science, facts, and so the rest of us just have to put up with it, and watch kids die from preventable diseases. Thanks!

  21. David Hand

    This is a discussion about freedom of speech, and the anti-vaccination crowd has the right to publish their opinions. Banning them opens the door to much more dangerous limitations on free speech.

    There are plenty of options available to limit the negative impact of their views.

  22. Marty Dubal

    We can all quote data and provide links for and against depending on our various convictions. But There is one single simple litmus test for the pros and cons of vaccinations.

    Research this Mr Keene: How many doctors allow their children to be vaccinated?

    Your article has been an irresponsible malicious expose against freedom of choice. I must say I never expected such hypocracy from a learned and respected journalist as your self. A huge disappointment.

  23. rhwombat

    Nev7989: I’m an Infectious Diseases physician in public hospital practice (which is why I use a pseudonym). I’ve seen the consequences of your “opinions” about vaccines played out in the victims of the preventable infectious diseases and their families – something that dwarfs the spiteful ego of a pseudonymous arsehole like you. That you defend Holocaust denialism in the same rant is to be expected of a true bigot – someone who is so insecure about the validity their own opinion that they hide in anonymity, to scurry like cockroaches when the light of attention falls on them. You have no news for anyone.

  24. Chris Hartwell

    @Marty – the correct form of your question is: “How many immunologists, or doctors otherwise extensively learned in the ways of the immune system, allow their children to be vaccinated?”

    I can cite an example of a neurosurgeon who refused her children being vaccinated. Being a neurosurgeon – an expert in one field – does not make her an expert in any other. What one might call an appeal to false authority.

  25. rhwombat

    Chris: In public hospitals, even idiot single organ specialists (of whom there are a disturbingly high number) have to be vaccinated, so I presume your example works in private. The cited neurosurgeon is going to have an interesting time when (if) her kids have to mingle with others.

  26. Don

    this article is by someone with no expertise in the area just runs the standard Big Pharma line with no evidence or science. just unsubstantiated statements and claims and blind assumptions.

    smacks of corruption, or stupidity (possibly someone who has had too many vaccinations 🙂

    the world-wide Big Pharma vaccination industry is a massive possibly trillion dollar industry (paid for by us by our Govts) – and a lobbying and disinformation effort and budget to fit that amount of money.

    yet the real vaccination science going back decades does not support its effectiveness, and also shows the long term damage to individuals’ health (and deaths)

    there are none so blind as those who will not see.

    vaccination is not about your health or the health of your children (if only!): it is solely about MONEY. And how much more they can gouge out of our Govts and our taxes.

    if vaccines actually worked as we are told (otherwise why get them?), why would anyone who had vaccine get the relevant disease?

    only those unvaccinated would, and you could say ‘serve them right’.

    and isn’t it funny that the people who get flu most are those that have been vaccinated?

    and isn’t it funny (not) that those who have been vaccinated against whooping cough now get a more dangerous and deadly form of it?
    billions and billions given to greedy and corrupt global corporations for something that not only doesn’t work, but makes things worse

    the links below substantiate various facts, such as that vaccines don’t work, actually cause more disease, and massive health side effects.

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web2.html

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html

    http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020132sinclair/vaccinaion.htm

    http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web3.html

    btw, have you noticed how much sicker and sicker and sicker our population is becoming? it seems these days the population spends half their time in a doctor’s surgery, not being made healthy, just being subscribed more and more drugs, incl vaccinations?

    so why are people and children getting sicker, getting diseases, so much more often, so constantly and frequently, than in the past?

  27. rhwombat

    Blood hell, BK. Shake the tree and the nuts fall out. Well done. Nev7989, Dubal & Don provide more fodder for Lewandowsky et al. than either the climate or holocaust deniers. For once I agree with Hand – it is as important to put these idiots in the virtual stocks and pelt them with science as it is to hold Bolt, Jones and the rest of the Rupertarians accountable for their delusions of significance.

  28. David Hand

    Hey Don,
    I’m impressed that Crikey receives interplanetary correspondence to its comments section because you clearly don’t occupy the same planet as me.

    Here on Earth, tens of millions of people are healthier, live longer and have better lives than they otherwise would have because of vaccination. Smallpox has been eliminated. Polio is not far behind.

    I’m sad that on your planet people are getting sicker and sicker and sicker. Here on Earth, life expectancy has never been higher and vaccination has been one of the great enablers.

    Back on the subject Bernard Keane raises here however, if you visit Earth, you will be allowed to express anti-vaccination views because we have freedom of speech in most countries.

  29. Chris Hartwell

    @rhwombat – sorry, I should have clarified that she is an overseas neuro (US, to be exact) – I was trying to make a point regarding so-called Health Freedom and fallacious appeals to authority.

    But I am aware of the need for vaccinations in public health – I work in public health myself, admittedly in a non-patient-facing role.

  30. Chris Hartwell

    David, we don’t agree on a number of subjects, but thank you for expressing more eloquently than I would a perfect response to Don.

  31. Marty Dubal

    Chris Hartwell.

    You cite one example. A neurosurgeon. I can cite hundreds and can possibly even stretch that to thousands of private practise GP’s let alone immunologists who will not vaccinate their children. Surely that tells you something.

    ” An appeal to a false authority ” That’s just plain ridiculous. These are people who deal with similar and related issues every day of their life and who are far more qualified to make informed decisions than you or I.

  32. rhwombat

    Marty Dubal: since my direct response to you was moderated out of existence ( with 2 more waiting the same fate) I will again attempt to express my outright contempt for your “hypocracy” @#22.

    I have been a specialist physician in Infectious Diseases in NSW public hospital and academic practice (including managing HIV, transplant and other immunocompromised – and those with polio, varicella encephalitis, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (the hideous consequence of measles) and pertussis patients) for more than 25 years. I did a PhD in host defence (that’s the immunology of infecion), and serve on the examining board and advisory committees for the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and Australasian Society for Infectious Diseases at state, national and international levels. So I am well qualified to say that what you are stating is complete, unadulterated, sociopathic bullshit.

    I and every single one of my colleagues vaccinate our kids because we know too well what happens to children (and some adults) when blithering idiots like you (and your co-conspirators Nev & Don) succeed in convincing a susceptible parent of your poisonous paranoid lies. I know of no qualified, practicing doctor (excluding the ones who talk through your fillings) who does not vaccinate themselves and their children in the absence of a valid reason not to (such as hypersensitivity to a vaccine component, lymphoma, SCID, hypogammaglobulinaemia etc). If you know of any, then perhaps they might not appreciate you citing their names, as all of their colleagues would refuse to work with them, and many would notify AHPRA.

    Well done BK, for shaking the tree.

  33. David Hand

    Hey Marty,
    You cannot name hundreds of private practice GPs who will not vaccinate their children.

    I challenge you to name 5.

  34. Draco Houston

    Bernard really is a master troll 🙂

  35. Drew Black

    @rhwombat

    Show us evidence of your credentials. You can’t because you are an imposter spruiking lies and rubbish to taint people who have researched this matter to the hilt and exposed the vaccination rorts between Big Pharma, MSM and all ancilliary associated vested interests.

    You are a collaborator.

  36. Drew Black

    David Hand.

    I don’t know about Marty Dubal, but I could present to you a list of links with a medical practitionners following of at least 500, but to publish their identities would be sacrilidge and something I would never even contemplate. Unlike you.

  37. Colour Guard

    Hi Draco, yeah, hahahaha, it looks like David Hand might have co-wrote this article with Mr Keene. Poor ol Beerhard, looks like he’s lost his way a bit. I take my eye off of him for just a second and look what happens…he succumbs to external influences just to curry favour. I feel sorry for him but I wonder what he really believes, hmmm.

    As for David Hand, well, I thought we got rid of him. Must have cut a deal with the Beach just to hang around. Something like that.

  38. rhwombat

    Drew Black: Thank you. I do indeed collaborate with my colleagues & patients, however I draw a line at engaging antivax cestodes – you do know how to Google if someone spells out the big words slowly and almost correctly don’t you? Never mind. Just go back to sucking your toes and trying to keep up with the other village idiots.

  39. Sean

    Pro-vaxxers, on scrutiny, are arguing from a position of religion and faith, not genuine scientific enquiry or examination of the evidence, especially over the last 30 years of heavy vaxxing — it’s almost identical to going along with the doctrines of the medieval Catholic church on inspection.

    The ‘anti-vaxxers’ most definitely do not have a ‘measurable body count’. Would you care to indicate what it is and how you arrived at a figure? Consider, for instance, that 92% of children who recently came down with pertussis in a wave in California were already supposedly vaccinated against the disease. That tends to screw your pseudo-scientific, unexamined, unconsidered, social consensus via brainwashing religious case right away, doesn’t it?

    There is a body count from vaccine adverse reactions, on the other hand. There has been a massive rise in a number of syndromes in infants and young children in the past 30 years, co-inciding with the introduction of the universal Hib vaccination, followed by the introduction of a number of multivalent jabs, more jabs, and at an ever younger age — because the ‘religion’ tells us that such invasive jabs are ‘perfectly safe’ — except when a child very obviously dies or is maimed by it. It seems that if you only maim or kill about 1-2% of the population you can continue to get away with it — which is equal to or greater than the problems caused by many of the wild diseases themselves, an exercise obviously conducted at great cost to the consumer and taxpayer.

    In particular, consider the following:
    – autism was only identified and described for the first time in the very early 1940s just after widespread diphtheria vaccinations commenced
    – we have a sudden uptick in SIDS from the 1980s, commencing with the HiB vax and the use of DTaP and DTP at very early ages — the SIDS spike occurs at exactly the time the DTaP is given in age, or within a month. It is suspected that vaxes regularly cause asthmatic and similar auto-immune respiratory problems in quite a few kids, causing suffocation in their sleep in the case of SIDS babies. The death rate from SIDS, a previous non-problem, is about 0.1% of all infants.
    – a few recent studies have shown that long term asthma rates in kids are halved by the age of 7 if you delay the DTaP vax events by even 1 month in infancy, suggesting 1) they cause harm, and 2) we really don’t know overall how much harm in that case
    – many parents report adverse reactions in their infants after the MMR jab, including the onset of regressive autism — now 2%
    – we have seen a spike in ADHD diagnoses, also arguably caused by brain inflammation and disorganisation in reaction to vaxes, as encephalitis is known to be caused by vaxes — now 8% of children
    – we have seen an uptick in serious allergies — now 11% of children. In particular to food proteins like peanuts and eggs — both these substances are used in vaxes — egg whites to produce deactivated pathogens, peanut oil as a convenient excipient. Injecting food proteins into people is known to sensitise them and cause allergies. In the 1930s there was a sudden rash of allergies to cottonseed oil — which just happened to be used at the time as an excipient in the diphtheria vax. As we know, these allergies can be life threatening.
    – we have seen an uptick in asthma — now 25% of Australian kids. A quarter of pigeonholes in preschools need an asthma puffer. The findings that asthma rates are halved by just delaying the schedule by a month have already been noted above.

    If any provaxxer genuinely makes a scientific enquiry into the epidemiology above, you would also hope they could use the ordinary scientific hypothetico-deductive method to guess at what the ‘environmental cause’ might be to explain all those syndromes, without casting about for unlikely excuses and reasons like ‘blaming the parents’ genes’ and ‘must be new pollutants’ when these things have never been a problem before in modernity.

    I suggest any pro-vaxxer who actually IS capable of scientific thought, if such a thing exists, to in particular study the role of aluminium used as an adjuvant in over-stimulating infants’ immune systems, crossing the blood-brain barrier and doing damage, etc — plus the longterm effects on Alzheimers. Remember aluminium is most definitely not a nutrient of any sort, it’s an out and out poison to the human body.

    You think injecting a bunch of immune stmulating substances into yourself is perfectly safe? And so safe you think it’s OK to subject infants to it? Regardless of how severe or trivial the wild disease actually is, or the real risks of even catching that disease in a society with good hygiene and sanitation, and the risks of having the worst possible outcomes from those diseases rather than taking a moderate course? Less than 0.1% of kids in the modern world contracting measles would ever die from it, and only when they have another concomitant serious illness or disability when you actually examine their records — something big pharma doesn’t want you to do.

    And then deny parents the right of choice and informed consent? You also want to violate the Nuremberg Doctrine and return to what you think of as a form of benevolent Nazism?

    I wasn’t in the wave of vaccinations in the 80s, I was a teen — but I remember the sudden announcement of SIDS cases in the community, something that had never been a problem before in our day. We also all caught measles, mumps and chickenpox, and I have never heard of a serious lifelong problem arising from having those diseases — short perhaps of the problem of shingles in old age. The only problem is, kids getting chickenpox jabs right now are also getting shingles right now, not in old age. The first measles jabs caused a nasty syndrome called ‘atypical measles’. Mumps jabs appear to be mostly ineffective, so you’re taking on all the risk for NO benefit whatsoever.

    You are being hoaxed by the doctors and big pharma on the risk profile of vaxes, and the balance of risks between a serious AR from being vaxed or the possibility of even catching the wild disease and then having long term problems from it.

  40. David Hand

    Isn’t is great that this thread has soundly answered Bernard Keane’s question so we have advocates of opposing views sharing their opinions for all to see.

    It is a failing of the left that it attempts to silence those with differing views. It’s a great irony that “human rights” is doublespeak code for “shut the other lot up”.

    Though I differ from the anti-vaccination lobby in my views, I recognise their right to hold an opinion. I fear for their children though.

    The other thing I want to say is that it would be nice if the conversation was a bit more civil. There is a lot of personal vilification on this site from anonymous commenters who seem to think that calling others a troll adds value to the discussion.

    It doesn’t add any value at all.

    Though it is an example of free speech.

  41. Minoah Cavente

    Thanks for that Sean, very informative, but I am not sure of why you include ” religion ” in the mix, unless you are infering a bent on either side.

    Religion, other than a biblical wholistic approach is an influence for both sides of the vax argument depending on the interpretation.

    ” If any among you are sick let the elders of the community cover you with olive oil and pray over you ”

    The problem with this is who are the elders of the community and who do you trust to pray over you.

  42. Drew White

    Huh!..Yeah, right Minoah. I wish somebody would pray for bernard keene (sp ).

  43. rhwombat

    Hand: Bit of a cleft stick you are in, isn’t it? Like climate change, vaccination denialism, as espoused by the passionate morons here (even the less illiterate, more pernicious ones like Sean) is self evidently a grossly anti-scientific cult view, used primarily to cement a sense of adolescent conspiritorial exceptionalism usually confined to the turgid pages of Ayn Rand and the US Wingnutosphere. That some of them can be labeled Left wing loonies creates a useful space for you to elide around the fundamental hypocrisy (please note the spelling Dubal – though undoubtably you will regard it as another example of the patriarchal oppression of the differently sentient) of the use of a similar lunatic science-decrying fringe sentiment (albeit much better resourced – thanks to the real corporate world rapers of the energy and extraction industries and their astroturfing) to attack the scientific consensus on climate change by screaming loudly and attacking scientists ’cause it helps get Toady Rabbott and his band of corporate lackeys elected. Denialism – of vaccines, climate change, the Shoah or the limits of community tolerance for deliberately divisive self-serving demagogues like Bolt, Jones and Brandis is not free speech unless it allows itself to be called out as self-serving bullshit in an open forum – like this one.

  44. Sean

    rhwombat, all you have are UNRESEARCHED OPINIONS and your pointless remarks are therefore of course INVALID.

    Further, there is no left-right distinction whatsoever to be made here, more totalitarian-libertarian — except that ‘the Right’ are more likely to be doctors or big pharma executives or hold shares in a pharmaceutical company and are therefore all for promoting widespread vaccination programs for profit. The irony is that one of the least vaxing areas in Sydney are the eastern suburbs and the north shore — it seems the elites (and possibly intellectuals and creatives) may have heard a few whispers on the grapevine amongst themselves on real safety profiles and risks — as Barbara Loe Fisher of the NVIC points out — people can network better than ever now via social media and swap stories and even photographs.

    Interestingly one of the Murdoch kiddies is on the board of a pharmaceutical company and coincidentally Murdoch has been running a ‘no jab, no play’ campaign in his papers — although this represents a fundamental violation of the Nuremberg Doctrine and the right of informed consent to an invasive medical procedure which inevitably and unavoidably carries risks up to severe disability and death which cannot be determined in advance for any single recipient — aka Russian Roulette. Murdoch is known to never do anything that will not somehow profit him or his family personally — witness the NBN freeze and one-eyed Abbott support and cheerleading.

    Hence, attacking the AVN is pretty well irrelevant, as a big pharma-funded attack on free speech, as there is a huge number of vaccine safety websites out there internationally publishing much the same findings and epidemiology and warnings. However all these site have documented that they have been coming under attack from a big pharma-inspired campaign in the last 12 months or so.

    I will bet you a king’s ransom rhwombat has never actually perused the AVN site for any reasonable period of time or considered the contents or worked out a refutation for the articles published there.

    But certainly put the link up there so others can check it and consider the points that are being made, thank you.

  45. Sammy Harry

    Editorial and big article in the Courier Mail. Oddly enough class actions about vaccines were not mentioned.

    https://www.facebook.com/ExposingTheTruth/posts/194594630616245

  46. Sean

    The thing about vaxing your kids, along with many other medical interventions requiring informed consent, is that once your kid is vaxed, they can’t be unvaxed, once the damage is done in the form of encephalitis, auto-immune reactions, autism, asthma, allergy, ADHD or SIDS, it cannot be undone. If you are lucky, they may very slowly heal and get better over many years, possibly approaching 100% if you are very very lucky. Hence we see some kids hit with regressive autism at 18 months (just a ‘coincidence’ that it hits with a month of getting their MMR jab that ppl here want to make mandatory for diseases that are not particularly serious most of the time for most people) who very gradually get better over many years of childhood, obviously missing important educational milestones as they go and causing a world of worry for their parents and some very steep caring bills.

    Those collections of toxic aluminium, foetal cells, egg white, peanut oil, and numerous other adjuvants and bizarre substances being injected straight into your system past your protective skin layer can never be removed. We know they seem, in some cases, to stimulate an IgG response and invoke a form of immunity to some strains of disease — but what of the adverse reaction and side effect profile? Doctors are trained to tell every concerned parent with a kid having an AR from a vax that ‘it’s not possible, it’s just a coincidence’. Never mind when ‘bad batches’ are released and consumed to devastating effect before they can be withdrawn, never mind the frequent recalls made by governments of vaxes that prove to unsafe from the start, when certain flu vaxes rushed out for profit to the community turn out to cause convulsions and even permanent brain damage and illness, when 2% or more of kids get encephalitis from the vax (MMR), when kids die of SIDS at peaks of 2 and 4-5 months from suffocation straight after getting their DTaP jab.

    The Hippocratic Oath says ‘first, do no harm’ — that thing went by the wayside from Day 1 when the first cowpox vax was invented — look at the AR rate from the original cowpox/smallpox vaxing programs back in the day — they were horrendous! How soon people forget.

    There is a reason vaccinating health ‘professionals’ are being attacked in Pakistan, a country which has a problem with public sanitation and hence some disease types — where even there, vaccination advocates are being attacked because parents are noticing severe and disabling adverse reactions in their newly vaccinate children. It’s not superstition, it’s that they are not as cowed by authority and bullshit discourses as we in the West.

  47. Sean

    TO be philosophical for a second, there are many definitions of religions from which we can select the meaning I intended.

    “A religion refers to a set of variously organized beliefs about the relationship between natural and supernatural aspects of reality, and about the role of humans in this relationship. While religion is difficult to define, one standard model of religion, used in religious studies courses, was proposed by Clifford Geertz, who simply called it a “cultural system” (Clifford Geertz, Religion as a Cultural System, 1973). A critique of Geertz’s model by Talal Asad categorized religion as “an anthropological category.” (Talal Asad, The Construction of Religion as an Anthropological Category, 1982).

    The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith, belief system or sometimes set of duties;[3] however, in the words of Émile Durkheim, religion differs from private belief in that it is “something eminently social”.[4]”

    Fundamentally I use the word to mean a belief system that is adhered to without factual evidence being required, and that retains adherents even in the face of contradictory facts. The overarching authority behind some religions benefits from maintaining such untestable belief systems or actively opposed their being tests — witness the Catholic church and universities’ treatment of Galileo and Copernicus.

    Further, anthropologically, the original primitive role of shaman (sometimes known as the ‘medicine man’) was often as a tribal healer in the absence of any better science, so the role of religion and medicine has long between intertwined.

  48. Marty Dubal

    rhwomBAT –

    I may not be able to spell too well
    and maybe not even a story can I tell
    but for you I will continue to toll that bell
    in a hope it prevents you from going to hell

    hahahahaha!!!Bwahahahaha!!!

  49. Minoah Cavente

    ” Further, anthropologically, the original primitive role of shaman (sometimes known as the ‘medicine man’) was often as a tribal healer in the absence of any better science, so the role of religion and medicine has long between intertwined.”

    That’s way cool, Sean. Thanks

  50. Minoah Cavente

    …another thing in context Sean.

    Often it was the women who were the healers. Their knowledge of herbal remedies and deeper spiritual connection with their environment gave then certain healing abilities.

    But with the growing strength and power of the church they were declared heretics and that was the end of that. The church hates competition. Thanks Sean.

  51. Nev7989

    I have had to modify this post presumably because the editors are afraid of the backlash from vested interest groups in debate over the facts surrounding the Holocaust. If this is the case well it is a pathetic reflection of freedom of speech in Australia! I will re-post and see what happens.
    Some advice for fhwombat at #23, has life become so shitty that you need to do some psychological displacement and take your anger out on bloggers. I suggest you get some anger management. If you didn’t crack up so easily and read what I said you would realize your response was not even relevant, it would appear the only way can deal with other people’s opinions is to be angry and abusive so I may as well be nasty to a conceited arrogant wanker like you!
    The only thing you are good at fhwombat is losing control of your emotions and making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. I never said vaccines are harmful or not useful and I am inclined to believe they are extremely useful and have saved many lives but that the Pharmaceutical companies are not completely honest with us on a number of things.
    I don’t care about people knowing who I am but only a dickhead like you would think people should give their real names on a blog site and criticize those who don’t.
    I would say that the ONLY knowledge you have about the holocaust is what you have read in mainstream history books and on mainstream media and are totally convinced that what you are hearing and reading is the truth. Wake up cretin but then you are a clone of the medical establishment. With all those qualifications why don’t you put them to some more good use and do some research into the history of the pharmaceutical industry then employ those critical thinking skills in the hidden recesses of your pea brain and you may realize that all is not what is seems.
    You claim I am ranting about the Holocaust but it is obvious from your halfwit reply that you were unable to understand what I said.
    I am not denying the Holocaust happened but I am disputing the official claims of what happened and the numbers that were murdered in a planned genocide by Hitler and the Third Reich for the simple reason I am NOT anti-Semitic but I have looked extensively at both sides of this debate and the official line is I believed flawed. The entire official story or World War II is mostly lies if you take the time to investigate the fact. Did you know that the term Holocaust did not exist until the 1950’s, I think I know the answer to that! Did you know that the most authoritative author on Hitler and the Third Reich David Irving has proven that the official line is flawed and he has had a reward on offer for the last twenty years for anyone to provide a photo of a German bulldozer or German soldiers disposing of mass corpses. The answer is there isn’t any and the photos we all had rammed down our throats were American and British bulldozers and soldiers that were disposing of corpses that died mainly from disease and starvation because the allies had bombed the shit out of the infrastructure and there was little food, clean water and medicine to assist the prisoners in the camps. There is a lot more factual evidence also to support these facts. (and yes I can hear the keyboards in Tel Aviv clunking already because they can’t let the facts out of the bag!) The second world war killed 60 million people and about 50% of them, 30 million people, were innocent civilian including millions of women and children. The allied bombing of Germany and Japan including the two nuclear blasts on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed tens of thousands of people in seconds, minutes and hours. The Holocaust victims seem to have all the sympathy (and monetary compensation), well what about all the others who were innocent victims, their voice and their suffering and loss is not allowed to be heard by the deceivers!
    So you see hrwombat you are a slimy maggot that goes around announcing your knowledge and authority which in reality is conceited arrogance to service your ego and insecurities and the reality is you are the quintessential bigot!

  52. Sean

    Apologies, reading back beyond the last 6 posts, rhwombat actually does have significant medical credentials. Even scarier. Given that he is making a big deal out of talking about treating the tiny minority of encephalitis cases caused by wild measles vs the 2% autism rate that has come about by encephalitis caused by the MMR and other vaxes. But, of course, the medical fraternity and big pharma deny that these diseases and illnesses and ARs that commence right after a vax event are caused by the vax, because it stuffs up their impressive-looking life-saving stats, their pay packets, and their claim to high priest status.

    The whole point is, there are quantifiable risks in every society of catching certain diseases which in some cases have severe sequelae. Societies that have better and better personal and domestic hygiene, better nutrition, better sewerage and water treatment, and so on and so forth, intrinsically have far fewer problems with serious infectious diseases — this was the reason for all the public health infrastructure and hygiene campaigns in the first place. They worked. However, doctors followed up with vaxes and attempted to take the credit for these large scale improvements through better hygiene and awareness. There are also (potentially) quantifiable risks from receiving a vaccine designed supposedly to prevent the wild disease. In the cleaner societies, those risks are now very close to each other, and in fact the serious vax AR risk may be higher than the serious disease sequelae risk. Profit-makers don’t want you to know that, so they suppress the link between vaxes and their ARs so that they only talk about the upside.

    Even in poorer countries where, say, measles fatalities in infancy are 30%, if you race through those countries vaccinating the kids, you are still going to have a death rate and an autism rate similar to what honest researchers have estimated in the West — 0.1% SIDS, 2% autism, asthma, allergies, and so on. However, it is an EXTREMELY POOR ARGUMENT to point to ‘successes’ in 3rd world countries where the death rate from measles is not due to lack of vaccination, but due to extremely poor nutrition (the children will continue to be malnourished and probably stunted growing up), poor water quality, poor sanitation, poor sewerage, etc etc, NONE OF WHICH THE WEST IS INTERESTED IN DOING ANYTHING TO RECTIFY. So we will give them a $2 vaccination for profit, but not fix all the extremely serious underlying profits, THEN use that argument for further propaganda value back in the West to continue profiting from vaxes there. Nowhere in this is the real AR rate being examined. Just like Ciprofloxacin and the Cox-2 inhibitors and numerous other drugs, the real side effect profile and adverse reaction rate is hidden in the doctored studies presented for drug registration, then hidden as ‘anecdotal instances’ once released upon the public.

  53. Sean

    Can somebody, including Bernard Keane, the original author, please indicate exactly what the ‘death toll’ is from that small percentage of parents who choose not to vaccinate their children against absolutely everything in the delicate time of infancy? Given that 92% of children who had pertussis in a recent wave of infections in California had received vaccinations, and 81% were FULLY vaccinated on the schedule — where, of course, vaccination clearly does not equal immunisation. I suggest to all the provaxing true believers out there that they go and look that one up — along with all the other anomalies and cover-ups they should be looking up before weighing forth with their unresearched opinions in public.

    Is is possible the wild diseases are already mutating away from the vax strains, making the vaxes useless? This is the standard model of disease resistance, of course, and vaxes are just as vulnerable as any other treatment in this area — so you get all the risk of an AR with none of the benefit of protection. Is it possible the vaxes never really worked much at all in the first place, and better public hygiene measures have been reducing infection rates? (The mumps vaccine and flu vax have been shown to not even work, by and large. Bet the author and the provaxing posters here didn’t know about that, because they’ve never bothered to do any balanced research on the matter before blathering off with their untested religious ‘opinions’.) Or is it possible that they only work a bit and serve to attenuate the severity of the disease if you’re lucky? Then there’s the cases where receiving certain vaxes seem to CAUSE the disease in recipients inside of a week, including fluvax. Or nasty cases of ‘atypical measles’ in the 1960s, another sequela that was suppressed by the authorities.

    THEN there was the death rate noted in aged care facilities in the US in the 1970s that seemed to be caused by the massive number of flu vaxes being given that year ‘just in case’ there was going to be a flue epidemic. The authorities took steps to hide that stat.

    So who is causing what death rate exactly? Where are the stats with these wild and actually quite defamatory and unsubstantiated and vile accusations? Where is the respect for parents’ freedom of choice in doing what they think is best for their child based on an informed opinion, on informed consent, even when the medical fraternity are doing their best to hide all the information? And what of the Nuremberg Doctrine? When did we all become eugenicist Nazis again?

    Which diseases are genuinely dangerous in our present day hygienic first world existence? Many parents choose to do selective immunisations for only the most dangerous diseases that might realistically still be prevalent or present in the environment their children are operating in, and often at a time later than the first 2 years of infancy given the apparent increased probability of a nasty AR at that sensitive age. That, therefore, is their best attempt at balancing the risk of serious disease and sequelae vs a risk of AR, and they are perfectly free, and indeed I would argue very wise, to make that call individually and in a considered way. That is their prerogative. This belief that all vaxes are completely safe at any age and any strength and with any ingredients and never mind the bollocks of loads of reports of SIDS and autism and ADHD and asthma and allergy that was never a problem before in previous generations and reports from parents and friends and strangers that their kid was never the same again after a vax event is just a form of insanity. We’re killing and maiming 2% of kids and giving life threatening asthma and allergies to another 25% to (supposedly) ‘save’ 1% from wild diseases, many of which are trivial. Now they’re arguing it just saves today’s stressed 2-income households from taking a week off work to look after a sick kid so they don’t get the sack — some convenience when the kid is maimed for life! Cui bono?

    Crikey! indeed. What happened to this newsletter? When did it become conventional, boring, pedestrian, mainstream and unable to look at the real discourses and cover-ups going on out there?

  54. Sean

    Thanks Minoah. I have 4 or 5 longer posts waiting in moderation that may or may not see the light of day, so no doubt the SWHTF if they appear. Not sure about the feminist claims to healers often or frequently being women in patriarchal societies — you would have to run the anthropological numbers over that one! I’m thinking of African and similar societies I’ve studied where it’s generally a male.

  55. rhwombat

    Yeech! This is medievalism.
    “Burn him, he’s a doctor!”
    “‘E turned me into a newt!”
    Sean: You seem to have a preadolescent capacity to believe that nothing beyond your personal experience and beliefs matter, that the experience of others is unreal, and that your will trumps physics and pathology. Let me know when you get beyond Galenic theory and leaches, and I’ll take you on a ward round of the victims of diseases that you dismiss in #40. Your sneering bullshit is actually evil – it has, and will lead to the death and disablement of children and adults, while you sit smug in your delusion – until biology catches up with you. Oh, and BTW, I’m a devout atheist, and believe that all religion is just political streetfighting.

  56. David Hand

    This thread proves Brandis spectacularly correct! Free speech protects the right of bigots to be bigots.

  57. David Hand

    This thread proves Brandis spectacularly correct! Free speech protects the right of bigo ts to be bigo ts.

  58. Sean

    perhaps we should take a tour of the parent with a 2% late onset regressive autism rate in the community, rhwombat, and add up all the grief, and carers’ costs, and lifelong disability from that. The rate was never that high until the vax schedules were changed and increasingly augemented with polyvalent jabs and increasing numbers.

    You see, in the hospitals, the concentration of the worst possible cases of the wild diseases. As I’ve repeatedly said, we also need to look at the AR profile of the vaxes in the general community, especially if we are promoting universal vaccination, or indeed forcing it on people in violation of the deeply thought through Nuremberg Doctrine.

    Your argument, once again, is not worthy of someone of your apparent or supposed intelligence, it’s an appeal to emotion, rather than epidemiological fact or science or even logic, given the arguments that have been put forward on vaccine harms, but we know we haven’t been getting a lot of honesty out of the medical fraternity on this for a long while, as they’re a vested interest in the matter.

    There were plenty of cases in the 80s and 90s of severely mentally disabled people institutionalised for life with a causal diagnosis written by a doctor of ‘vaccine injury’. I have friends who have seen the reports. That has all changed lately with the big cover-up.

  59. rhwombat

    Ah. So “Sean” is an AVNer. One of Wakefield’s spawn, Gish galloping bullshit only in pseudonymous safety. Possibly even a pseudonym for Dorey herself. Case closed.

    http://www.mamamia.com.au/health-wellbeing/australian-vaccination-network-bullying-tactics/
    http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/anti-vaccination-rhetoric-what-to-say/

    It really is quite important for public (and community) mental (as well as physical) health, to expose these deluded charlatans to public ridicule, even if it does mean having to trawl through Nev7989’s (? Töben or Irving) spittle flecked rant to get there.

  60. Minoah Cavente

    Sean – I was referring to medieval European, 13-17th century.
    Different time frame and different context.

  61. rhwombat

    If it quacks like a Dorey, and smells of Dorey poo, it’s probably a Dorey:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Vaccination-Skeptics_Network
    http://www.tgacrp.com.au/index.cfm?pageID=13&special=complaint_single&complaintID=2114

    Black salve, anyone?

    I wonder if the recent re-demolition of homeopathy by the NH&MRC has anything to do with the vehemence of “Sean”‘s bullshit?

  62. J Man

    ” Not sure about the feminist claims to healers often or frequently being women in patriarchal societies — you would have to run the anthropological numbers over that one! ”

    Well well well now,…it’s my buy!

  63. rhwombat

    Just to confirm “Sean”: what is your view of HIV denialism?

  64. Sean

    Well, I’m not an AVNer, although I respect their right to exist. I had a quick look at their site recently when big pharma mobilised through the Senate to try to shut them down, and noted they had reasonable looking articles posted, very similar to the very many international sites that draw attention to vaccine safety issues, epidemiology, apparent cover-ups, etc.

    ‘HIV denialism’? My view? My view is that HIV is a very dangerous transmissible virus. We’re talking about vaccine safety here though, science, politics, cover-ups, etc.

  65. Sean

    Here’s a webpage that references a recent study linking aluminium levels in vaccines to autism rates:

    http://vactruth.com/2014/01/28/toxic-levels-of-aluminum/

    The paper’s title is ‘Aluminum in the Central Nervous System: Toxicity in Humans and Animals, Vaccine Adjuvants, and Autoimmunity’

  66. Sean

    How about this one? Recipients of flu vax had just as many cases of flu as non-recipients, and 5.5 times more likely to get other respiratory illness after getting the vax.

    Study: Flu Vaccine Causes 5.5 Times More Respiratory Infections – A True Vaccinated vs. Unvaccinated Study

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/study-flu-vaccine-causes-5-5-times-more-respiratory-infections-a-true-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-study/

  67. Sean

    I’m going to post links to a few recent peer-reviewed published studies that demonstrate vaccine harms, moderation notwithstanding. Two are posted above already.

    I note the ‘provaxers’ are being true to religious form and failing to discuss the science, and are immediately resorting to name calling or stereotyping as an illegitimate form of argumentation — I suspect because there is no legitimate argument they can make.

  68. Sean

    Vaccine Bombshell: Leaked Confidential Document Exposes 36 Infants Dead After This Vaccine

    A confidential GlaxoSmithKline document recently leaked to the press exposed that within a two-year period, a total of 36 infants died after receiving the 6-in-1 vaccine, Infanrix Hexa. [1] According to the website Initiative Citoyenne [2] who reported the news, the 1271 page document revealed that GlaxoSmithKline received a total of 1,742 reports of adverse reactions between October 23, 2009, and October 22, 2011, including 503 serious adverse reactions and 36 deaths. Initiative Citoyenne stated:

    “It’s not that 14 deaths were recorded by GSK between October 2009 and end in October 2011 as we had originally calculated but 36 (14 from 2010 to 2011 and 22 from 2009 to 2010). In addition to these 36 deaths at least 37 other deaths (sudden death mainly), bringing the total to at least 73 deaths since the launch of the vaccine in 2000, and again, this concerns only the death by sudden death, no further recovery of under-reporting.”

    http://vactruth.com/2012/12/16/36-infants-dead-after-vaccine/

  69. Sean

    I would point out that in fact the AVN have always struck me as extremely reasoned people, the only spittle comes from their detractors — Meryl Dorey had to take out AVOs against 3 men recently which were awarded by the courts, which leaves them with a record. You know, blowhard type guys who are so sure they are right in the face of the evidence — they would make good Spanish Inquisitioners.

  70. Nev7989

    To think I was contemplating paying $19 a month to subscribe to Crickey!

    All you are is another spineless media outlet afraid of the Zionist Jews.

    You let rhwombat use expletives against me and mention so called Holocaust deniers Irving and Toben but oh, not me because you are shit scared of the shit you will get from the vested interests in the Holocaust deception.

    Ban me do you want, I don’t give a fuck about your edited garbage publication because at Crikey you are another bunch of gutless media wankers!

    Post that cocksuckers!

  71. rhwombat

    ‘Sean’: got you. “Recent peer-reviewed published studies…two of which have been posted already” – since the Grandjean & Landrigan review has no reference to vaccines or their components, you must be referring to noted (and long dead) anti-vaccination nutter Ian Sinclair’s crap. I’ve told you my credentials and experience – what are yours?

    The lady doth protest too much, methinks – you are a Dorey sockpuppet, citing the same old tendentious bullshit recycled from AVN, NVIC and other aggregators of pathetic, self-absorbed new age poseurs looking to displace their guilt and anguish onto anyone but themselves. The MMR-causes-autism lie that you continue to promulgate was dead and buried long before Wakefield’s crash and burn (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield), but you guys are still out there pushing this crap, in defiance of ALL the data, analyses, conclusions, recommendations and reviews of ALL of the worlds medical organisation. Someone’s out of step, so I guess it must be world medicine, not the anonymous illuminati of anti-vaccination, ’cause Gallileo (!) and the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (!), and mystic wisdom, and Big Pharma bought you all anyway.

    Oh, and the 3 AVOs:
    http://www.dilutedthinking.com/avn_avo.php
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/antivaccination-lobbyist-meryl-dorey-drops-avo-appeal/story-fni0cx12-1226724358684

    The ugly truth is that this is all a smug intellectual game for you vampires. You never have to tell a parent why their child is permanently disabled or dead. I have. You disgust me.

  72. Sean

    OK. Here’s something inboxed to me just now, apart from all the other stuff that is being inboxed every day.

    Not so smart are you now, ‘scientists’? Guess what — we don’t control nature completely and deterministically, and we don’t understand it particularly well either, especially in biology. All we can do is observe it and fiddle with it a bit. Hence authoritarian control freak demands to vaccinate everyone with a serious risk attached start to look a bit hollow…

    Whooping Cough Outbreaks being Triggered by Vaccinated Children

    It is a common myth perpetuated by both the entrenched system of monopolistic medicine and the mainstream media that unvaccinated children are the social scourge responsible for triggering outbreaks of rare diseases like pertussis (whooping cough), measles and shingles. But the scientific literature suggests otherwise, showing in many cases that vaccinated children are the ones largely responsible for triggering and spreading disease.

    A recent study published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences for instance, found that, despite more than 50 years of population-wide vaccination, cases of whooping cough are on the rise. The culprit? Antigens of Bordetella pertussis that not only are completely ineffective at preventing infection with Bordetella parapertussis, a whooping cough bacterium similar to B. pertussis, but actually promote it by interfering with the body’s natural infection clearance protocols.

    “[W]e show that aP [whooping cough] vaccination impedes host immunity against B. parapertussis-measured as reduced lung inflammatory and neutrophil responses,” wrote the authors. “[W]e conclude that aP vaccination interferes with the optimal clearance of B. parapertussis and enhances the performance of this pathogen. Our data raise the possibility that widespread aP vaccination can create hosts more susceptible to B. parapertussis infection.”

  73. Sean

    [article continues, once first half is out of moderation]

    Oddly enough, it is the unvaccinated children that remain largely healthy during these outbreaks, as their immune systems are not crippled by exposure to artificial vaccine antigens. This was definitely the case as far as naturalnews reported, where more than 600 confirmed cases of whooping cough, a 10-fold increase over previous years, was documented. As you may recall, most of those infected with the disease had already been vaccinated for it.

    More recently, a study funded by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) verified that the whooping cough vaccine, which is also contained in the combination DTaP injection, does not even prevent the spread of whooping cough as commonly claimed. On the contrary, the vaccine allowed the disease to fester inside the bodies of test baboons for up to five weeks, debunking a widely believed myth.

  74. Sean

    So not only are we seeing a failure of the pertussis vax, heightened risks being carried of SIDS and autism and other brain damage and auto-immune problems by giving the vax, but an INCREASED likelihood of catching a new strain of pertussis that is emerging if you have been vaxed.

    Similar to the ‘atypical measles’ caused by measles vaxes in the 60s, similar to the cases of shingles being reported in young children from receiving the chickenpox vax today.

    The emperor’s new clothes are slowly being exposed for the tobacco science that it is — apart from the very hardworking efforts of people like BK and rhwombat to shut down the debate, to shut down free speech, to shut down genuine scientific enquiry and scepticism, to question the claims of doctrinaire authoritarianism with money attached, who are consciously or unconsciously echoing the desires of medical vested interests like doctors, big pharma and big government.

  75. Sean

    rhwombat, you still haven’t said anything in your posts, it’s just vituperation. If you really are or were a doctor — and I hope you aren’t or weren’t for the sake of science — then you should have been struck off by now. Unless they reward you for keeping the money coming in.

  76. Sean

    so, rhwombat, would you care to talk to the leaked GlaxoSmithKline document that points to 36 deaths in infants over a few years from their polyvalent vaccine? I mean, we’re supposed to be saving lives here, aren’t we, not ending them?

    Also can you talk to the problems with the pertussis vaccine I’ve cited, which is also in the public domain, no ‘nutters’ promulgating the information.

    And can you, finally, explain, as the true scientist you are, what you think the cause of the minor epidemics since the 1980s in SIDS, ADHD, autism, asthma, allergy, encephalitis, and other strange auto-immune problems really is? What are your hypotheses for this commonly reported set of findings? It’s a ‘medical mystery’ as we are always being told, and you should of course be putting your collective medical minds to it as a matter of some urgency.

    Or do you only want to report the ‘upside’ of serologic IgG conversion which may not even confer genuine immunity, and ignore the downside of serious and considerable adverse reactions in infants and young children which may well exceed the damage caused by the various respective wild diseases you claim to be stopping in their tracks?

    The last time I heard empty bluster of the sort and calibre of rhwombat’s was when psychodynamic theory was discredited in the 50s and a lot of ‘highly trained’ Freudian psychoanalysts were put out of work.

  77. Sean

    The ugly truth is that this is all a smug intellectual game for you vampires. You never have to tell a parent why their child is permanently disabled or dead. I have. You disgust me.

    You don’t tell them when you’ve killed or maimed them with a vaccine though — SIDS and autism. Once again, what is the cause of the sudden epidemic of SIDS since the 1980s, which peaks at the time of the DTaP jabs? What is the cause of the late onset regressive autism epidemic, which happens to coincide most with MMR jabs given at 18 months? What is the cause of the huge uptick in asthma and allergies and ADHD in infants and children? Why are all of these phenomena coincidentally intimately related with the immune system? Why are kids suddenly apparently being born with terminator genes and problems with immunity? What are you pumping into them, and why is there only upside and benefits and no side effects or adverse reactions as with every single other drug known to medicine? What is the size and scale of these adverse reactions really? And what is the genuine risk involved for most people with any of the wild diseases in a modern hygienic first world country?

    I haven’t even gotten on to the vaccine-induced diabetes and non-Hodgkins lymphoma cancer epidemics in children since ‘universal vaccination’ programs with a record number of injected pathogens and adjuvants really got underway.

    All your personal anecdotes are very clearly and obviously to other readers simply a smokescreen and an attempt to maintain the façade of the ‘long suffering and benign priesthood’ to keep you in a job. You claim to have some sort of personal responsibility for every disease and outcome, except when you cause them. You ‘need to be needed’, i.e. you need the money, right?

    I would recommend to any readers hanging on so far that they look at the evidence published on the vaccine information website, whether the AVN or NVIC or age of autism or a bunch of others, start hooking into the network, educate yourselves, inform yourselves, and then you are in a position to consider the real risks and benefits of vaccinating or not vaccinating both yourselves and your kids for specific diseases that may or may not be dangerous, respectively. Because you are certainly not getting that information from doctors, from big pharma, or from govt programs.

    As I’ve said, once you’ve been injected, you can’t uninject yourself, once the substances are in your system, you can’t take them back out, and they will take their course in your body. If you have a massive immune over-reaction, or an auto-immune reaction with incorrect recognition of your own nerve cells as foreign with MS or other nervous system symptoms, or Guillain Barre syndrome, or encephalitis, or aluminium poisoning and Alzheimers symptoms, remember they never warned you of any of that.

    So still more empty vituperation and emotional haranguing from rhwombat to preserve the holy tabernacle of the high priests.

  78. David Hand

    Ah the joys of freedom of speech.
    Not only does it allow a platform for bigo ts, it also gives room to people with OCD.

    Is there a vaccine for that?

  79. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Sean, I finally understand why you don’t make sense. In an earlier posting you wrote:

    “Fundamentally I use the word [religion] to mean a belief system that is adhered to without factual evidence being required, and that retains adherents even in the face of contradictory facts”.

    If you hold a view ‘religiously’ (as you have demonstrated voluminously here in this discussion) then facts are unnecessary, not required and irrelevant. Get it? Facts irrelevant. You present no ‘facts’, you dispute without ‘facts’ and you don’t recognise anyone else’s ‘facts’. You urge others to obtain ‘facts’ by “….. hooking into the network, educate yourselves, inform yourselves, and then you are in a position to consider the real risks and benefits…”, yet still there are no facts. Might just as well listen to the holy roller at the fundamentalist church down the street tomorrow (Sunday). And what’s this “holy tabernacle of the high priests”? Are you feeling some religious competition, some unwelcome idol or something terribly earthy and secular? Holy smoke.

  80. rhwombat

    ‘Sean’: Now you are really showing your desperation: Long et al. Proc Biol Sci. Jul 7, 2010; 277(1690): 2017–2025 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2880100/) is about the dynamics of immunity in a mouse model, and concludes:

    “As always, it is important to be cautious about extrapolating from animal models to humans. The dynamics of B. pertussis and B. parapertussis infection in rodent hosts shares many similarities with human infection, but like all experimental models, differs from the human situation in a number of key ways (Elahi et al. 2007). However, the relative efficacies of pertussis vaccines in the rodent model correspond to those obtained in clinical trials (Mills et al. 1998; Guiso et al. 1999), and we note that epidemiological evidence in human whooping cough infections is consistent with an enhancement effect for B. parapertussis (Bergfors et al. 1999; Liese et al. 2003). Directly proving aP vaccination puts treated people at risk of acquiring B. parapertussis is very difficult, but we hope our study highlights the need for more thorough B. parapertussis epidemiological data and encourages further work in this neglected area. If our experiments are capturing the phenomenology of what is happening under aP vaccination in humans, it may be important to consider the introduction of vaccines that better protect against both bordetellae; for example, live attenuated B. pertussis nasal vaccines (Mielcarek et al. 2006), wP vaccines containing both B. pertussis and B. parapertussis (Burianova-Vysoka et al. 1970), or supplementation of aP vaccines with B. parapertussis protective antigens (Zhang et al. 2009a). An enhanced understanding of the evolutionary consequences of widespread aP vaccination is needed in order to optimize the next generation of vaccination strategies and fully reap the benefits of this powerful medical intervention.”

    Do you understand the concept of confirmation bias? If you spent your time combing the literature (and the wider media) you will find lies that you can twist to support your contrarianist propaganda. That doesn’t mean it’s correct or believable, it just means you are dishonest and are working with an agenda that has nothing to do with anybody else’s benefit.

    I’m particularly taken by the vituperative way you project arrogant, totalitarian, religious certainty onto those of us who actually work with real victims in the real world. None of us claim certainty or absolute knowledge, but your vehemence and monomania demonstrates a pathetic disconnection with consequence. For you, this is all about trying to convince yourself that you are not insignificant – and anyone can read the pique in your words. I don’t hate you, Dorey, but I do find you utterly contemptible.

  81. rhwombat

    ‘Sean’: ” Recent peer-reviewed published studies”? In Vactruth, by Christine England and Health Impact Daily News, by a couple of Philippines-based scammers, as creditable evidence of your ? That is Nev7989-level delusional crap.

    England is a another well known vaccination=autism english exile , whose main claim to fame is blaming child abuse on evil vaccines:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/04/here-we-go-again-the-vile-tactic-of-blaming-shaken-baby-syndrome-on-vaccines-part-2/
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-antivaccine-lie-that-just-wont-die-shaken-baby-syndrome-is-really-due-to-vaccine-injury/

    The “peer-reviewed” study (actually a review of published papers) cited by England (Immunol Res. 2013 Jul;56(2-3):304-16. doi: 10.1007/s12026-013-8403-1.) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23609067
    is from Shaw and Tomljenovich, two ‘controversial’ (read notorious) non-medical scientists from UBC who have been darlings of the US antivax (particularly anti HPV vaccine) scene for years. Note the number of citations in PubMed: 1. This means that no one believes the relevance of their overdrawn bow either. S&V have an hypothesis that they spruik, but they haven’t ever published any proof of causality – and no one who knows about this field thinks they will.

    As for Shilhavey’s regurgitated crap about Ben Cowling & Malik Peiris’ study (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/12/1778) – I know Ben & Malik personally (Malik identified SARS coronavirus), and know how embarrassed and angry they are about the way their study has been abused by the anti-science loons like you.

    The difference between useful medical science and your faith-based bleating is that we examine our errors and learn from them. You just sit in the dark and pretend.

  82. Sean

    You mean, rhwombat, you’ve read the studies and you can demonstrate how their methodologies, results or conclusions are invalid? Can you present that here, rather than just discrediting the authors with no substance?

    Are you saying that the peak period of the new epidemic of SIDS co-inciding exactly with DTaP vax schedules, and onset of autism co-inciding exactly with MMR jabs is just an unconnected coincidence? Although there is a clear line in theory of disruption to breathing in the case of the former and encephalitis in the latter?

    YOu seem to have skirted around all those questions. Again, what is your hypothesis for the connections in time between these new epidemics of illness in infants and the extra vaxes they are now receiving? Can you talk to the Canadian paper along with several other papers that have demonstrated a halving in the asthma rate in 7 year olds if their DTaP schedule is delayed by just one month?

    You also haven’t spoken about the real world risks of the wild diseases in modern 1st world societies either — I mean, I caught measles, mumps and chickenpox, got over them, got lifelong immunity, and I’m alright. This was before the epidemics of SIDS and autism started in the 1980s. Any explanations, ‘Dr’ Wombat?

  83. Sean

    Hugh, that was a completely useless post. Thank you for wasting everybody’s time. Given that this commenting forum is about the most limited thing on the planet, posts can’t be edited, linking is extremely limited, and anything over a certain length or with a URL in it is held up in moderation for up to a day, I can hardly engage in an exposition here. That’s why I give that advice to others. You seem to have an agenda to stop people looking at those sites?

  84. Sean

    ‘Dr’ Wombat, would you like to address the leaked report from GSK about the 36 known deaths from their polyvalent vax? Can you address that one please, ‘Dr’ Wombat? Thank you.

  85. Sean

    Ah, thank you for mentioning the so-called ‘Shaken Baby Syndrome’, ‘Dr’ Wombat. It appears after reading about several of those cases, and noting some instances where children have died from a vax after a couple of day with all the symptoms of SBS — blood around the eyes and so on — that in fact many or most alleged cases of SBS are indeed a vax adverse immune reaction causing death.

    There are a number of people in jail in America now who loved their children who have been arrested on suspicion of SBS simply because the child died a couple of days after a vax event, with all those symptoms, where the thing in common in the cases is that they have protested their complete innocence from beginning to end, and they have never shown anything but love and care for their children. It’s interesting that they are more likely to be prosecuted when they are from a low SES background. I can include some links on those cases also.

  86. Sean

    Here’s a link on a number of papers on SBS in many cases by practising physicians.

    Note that they reference deliberate cover-ups by the UK JCVI in some cases.

    No doubt ‘Dr’ Wombat will say all these doctors are also ‘discredited’ because – well – anyone who challenges the safety of vaccines is jumped on by the industry and the fraternity and are automatically ‘discredited’. Bit of a circular discrediting system going on with these characters to protect the income base.

    http://vactruth.com/2013/06/22/shaken-baby-syndrome/

  87. Sean

    Can you explain, please, ‘Dr’ Wombat, why the CDC refuses point blank to do any studies comparing health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated groups of subjects? It seems very convenient, doesn’t it? Beats falsifying the results later I suppose.

  88. rhwombat

    Still too long?
    Trying again:

    ‘Sean’: Now you are really showing your desperation: Long et al. Proc Biol Sci. Jul 7, 2010; 277(1690): 2017–2025 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2880100/) is about the dynamics of immunity in a mouse lung co-infection model, and concludes:

    “… An enhanced understanding of the evolutionary consequences of widespread aP vaccination is needed in order to optimize the next generation of vaccination strategies and fully reap the benefits of this powerful medical intervention.”

    Do you understand the concept of confirmation bias? If you spent your time combing the literature (and the wider media) you will find lies that you can twist to support your contrarianist propaganda. That doesn’t mean it’s correct or believable, it just means you are dishonest and are working with an agenda that has nothing to do with anybody else’s benefit.

    I’m particularly taken by the vituperative way you project arrogant, totalitarian, religious certainty onto those of us who actually work with real victims in the real world. None of us claim certainty or absolute knowledge, but your vehemence and monomania demonstrates a pathetic disconnection with consequence. For you, this is all about trying to convince yourself that you are not insignificant – and anyone can read the pique in your words. I don’t hate you, ‘Sean’, but I do find you utterly contemptible.

  89. J Man

    Sean – Your research and investigations into this is excellent and beyond reproach.

    Even despite my own collected data and research on the vaccination “industry”, at times I must have been living in a vacuum. I had lost sight of the connection between vaccinations and SIDS.

    I remember when SIDS first hit the headlines. Vested interests via the MSM convinced everyone the causes were smothering, shaking, neglect, etc etc.. all causes attributed to and blamed on the parents. Just like an airlines crash mystery when the real cause of the crash is hidden and the blame heaped on the pilots who can’t defend themselves. The pieces of the SIDS mystery certainly fit the vaccination puzzle.

    We all live in an artificially created reality. A Matrix of kind, but with all the characteristics of a Babylonian Corporatocracy existence where Govts/Corporations dictate every corpuscle of our perceived reality.

    ” Come out of her my people”….”For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.” I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.”

  90. David Hand

    Hey Sean,
    What you are up against here is hard, measurable evidence that does not need obscure jargon, deep knowledge of obscure research, an ability to throw around long words that only 1% of us understand.

    That evidence is that the government is about to raise eligibility for the pension to 70. One factor of course is budgetary constraints but another is the remarkable fact that those of us nearing retirement are as a group, healthier than any generation that has gone before. And we’ve all been vaccinated mate. All of us. We are the ones at the vanguard of vaccination in the 50s and 60s.

    Add to that the sad picture of parents queuing at clinics in Swansea to immunise their kids in the face of a measles epidemic because of a loss of herd immunity and your obsessive ranting just looks sillier and sillier.

  91. rhwombat

    ‘Sean’: still blustering on I see. Jennifer Raff provides a far more succinct and documented demolition of your bullshit that I can (and she’s an anthropologist, not one of us evil medicos).:
    http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/25/parents-you-are-being-lied-to/

  92. rhwombat

    J Man: Clap, clap clap. That has to be a Poe.

  93. Marty Dubal

    Hi J Man,

    You are not going to believe this, but as I was reading Sean’s comments I started thinking of the ” pharmakeia ” noted in the Book of Revelations and how Big Pharma fits the description like a hand fits a glove…busted!!!

    Well done Sean and J man…hurra hurra!!!

    “And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries [Greek = pharmakeia] were all nations deceived.”

  94. Sean

    Actually, David, no, I wasn’t vaccinated to the extent of the current generation, as I’ve pointed out several times.

    There is a dramatic uptick in infant mortality and morbidity since the vaccine schedules were ramped — more jabs, more pathogens, younger ages — as I’ve already listed several times here already.

    You are also completely failing to take into account other public health measures such as (relatively) clean drinking water (relatively) free of dangerous organisms, sewerage, better nutrition so the body can withstand or fight disease (as proven by comparison with 3rd world rates of measles deaths to 1st world), better personal and household hygiene, and finally better methods of treatment when someone actually does get sick. You have clearly not studied the history of these diseases through the 19th and early 20th centuries where transmission was based around poor sanitation, and are just glossing the whole thing. You more than anyone need to start reading up on this stuff.

    I caught measles as did everyone else in my cohort, and I never heard of a single problem myself — although there are cases of encephalitis of course — but as I have pointed out several times, encephalitis rates are higher from the vax program than from the wild disease.

  95. Sean

    Funny how ‘Dr’ Wombat has flipped the script and the discourse once again to claim he is being victimised and abused — after his litany of false discourses and appeals to emotion. There is no trick in the playback these people won’t try.

  96. Sean

    ‘playbook’. Crikey.

  97. J Man

    Marty Dubal – Down Turbo, down boy! Throw away that KJV Marty, you’ll feel better in the morning.

    Actually, some translations just have ” drugs ” in place of “pharmakeia” and churchianity always taught that this was the local street corner p-t dealer and was doomed to hell..hahahaha!..how ironic is it that it’s actually referring to Big Pharma? Oh, the irony.

  98. J Man

    ” That has to be a Poe”

    I give you points for a good memory, but that’s all.

  99. David Hand

    Ah…..
    We are now drifting into the fantastical visions of Revelation 18. This is great!

    And highly appropriate.

    And to think I was taught it was promiscuous s*x. Or the Catholic church. Or capitalism. Or television. Or alcohol.

    I suppose it depended on who was telling me about it.

  100. Sean

    rhwombat

    Posted Sunday, 13 April 2014 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    ‘Sean’: still blustering on I see. Jennifer Raff provides a far more succinct and documented demolition of your bullshit that I can (and she’s an anthropologist, not one of us evil medicos).:

    This just came out of moderation. It’s possible to do a lengthy point by point refutation of every single remark the supposed ‘anthropologist’ made. There has also been a false chain letter going around written by someone in the CDC claiming to be a writer in England — whose article is full of mistakes and Americanisms, and whose name just happens to match the first two names of a CDC worker.

    Everything that ‘anthropologist’ has written is eminently refutable, and I would be happy to refute them line by line in another forum which is not so laborious as this one. Once again, whenever the question is raised about why the new epidemics of autism, SIDS, asthma, allergies, ADHD, juvenile diabetes and non-Hodgkins lymphomas in infants and young children — all immune and auto-immune problems — just happens to coincide with changes in the vax schedules and with the introduction of many more new vaxes, we are always greeted with the same response from the provaxers — silence.

    (One troll says I’m blustering, another one says I should somehow publish on this crappy commenting board every last skerrick of proof and information, it’s hard to keep every troll happy at once. You can’t have it both ways guys.)

  101. Sean

    rhwombat

    Posted Sunday, 13 April 2014 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    Still too long?
    Trying again:

    ‘Sean’: Now you are really showing your desperation:

    Be sure to read all the related articles as well — many discussing problems in human populations. And remember 90% of the kids in Vermont and California who were so sick with pertussis or a similar, possibly mutated strain, that they had to present for treatment were immunised against pertussis — 80% ‘fully’ immunised. You still haven’t tackled this problem ‘Dr’ Wombat, you continue to skirt around the edges and ignore a panoply of very real problems with our assumptions about the efficacy and safety of vaccines.

    Related citations in PubMed

    Evolution of French Bordetella pertussis and Bordetella parapertussis isolates: increase of Bordetellae not expressing pertactin.
    [Clin Microbiol Infect. 2012]

    The O antigen enables Bordetella parapertussis to avoid Bordetella pertussis-induced immunity.
    [Infect Immun. 2007]

    Clinical and epidemiological picture of B pertussis and B parapertussis infections after introduction of acellular pertussis vaccines.
    [Arch Dis Child. 2003]

    Whooping cough due to Bordetella parapertussis: an unresolved problem.
    [Expert Rev Anti Infect Ther. 2004]

    Immunologic and epidemiologic experience of vaccination with a monocomponent pertussis toxoid vaccine.
    [Pediatrics. 2001]

    [see all…]

  102. Sean

    rhwombat

    Posted Thursday, 10 April 2014 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    I and every single one of my colleagues vaccinate our kids because we know too well what happens to children (and some adults) when blithering idiots like you (and your co-conspirators Nev & Don) succeed in convincing a susceptible parent of your poisonous paranoid lies. I know of no qualified, practicing doctor (excluding the ones who talk through your fillings) who does not vaccinate themselves and their children in the absence of a valid reason not to (such as hypersensitivity to a vaccine component, lymphoma, SCID, hypogammaglobulinaemia etc). If you know of any, then perhaps they might not appreciate you citing their names, as all of their colleagues would refuse to work with them, and many would notify AHPRA.

    Or other unknown genetic and probably untestable likely reactions to aluminium and other vaccine ingredients like squalene, yeast, eggs, peanuts, foreign DNA from animals, viruses and bacteria, causing asthma, allergy, and SIDS from asthma suffocation in infancy. Or the prospect of causing juvenile diabetes and non-Hodgkins lymphomas in any kid. Or paralysis. Or Hughes syndrome or antiphospholipid syndrome (APS). Or rheumatoid arthritis, macrophagic myofasciitis, multiple sclerosis, autism, and siliconosis. But then that just creates more work and money for the medical fraternity ‘fixing’ the problems they created and deny creating. The only smoking gun of course is the uptick in these cases as the number of vaccines and number of boosters goes up and the scheduled ages in infancy and childhood come back.

    And it’s funny, there’s a considerable list of GPs and specialist paediatricians overseas who are extremely leery of vaxes, and have become apostate.

    You only have to google ‘doctors who don’t vaccinate’ to find any number of them. It’s only the brainwashed Aussie technical barbarians who carry on like ‘Dr’ Wombat, blatantly violate the Nuremberg Doctrine on informed consent in medical interventions, bluff and bullshit the populace, take medical credit for simple public health hygiene measures set up decades ago, deny parents the right of choice and the right of informed choice, and so on. It’s a new form of fascism by stealth in the interests of making money.

    If childhood vaccines are safe, why are well over half a million vaccinated American children afflicted with autism, while non-vaccinated Amish and Mennonite children rarely suffer from the disorder? Why has the incidence of asthma, allergies, autoimmune disease, Type 1 diabetes and neurological conditions also dramatically increased in vaccinated children?

    Furthermore, why do obstetricians give pregnant women influenza vaccines that contain a toxic dose of mercury and why are new babies injected with the Hepatitis B vaccine within hours of birth when there is no medical justification for it?

  103. David Hand

    You’re obsessive, Sean. Most people pushing a point of view set it out and the reason they believe it and then leave it for others to reflect and make up their own minds.

    Your posts present you as an obsessive conspiracy theorist with a prophet like sense of calling. Frankly, it’s off putting and most likely leads people to question the substance of what you are saying because you are acting like a nut job in your representation of it.

    Don’t vaccinate your kids or grandkids if you like. You are boring now.

    But this is a thread about free speech and you’ve had plenty of that.

  104. Sean

    Thank you, David, that was the intent, vs your mostly completely useless and unhelpful posts throughout. As I said, some of the trolls want a complete case laid out here with studies, graphs, multimedia presentations, all of which the commenting software cannot do, and other trolls are like you.

    This article by BK was about the suppression of free speech, and he falls on the neo-fascist, big government, big business side. I’ve contributed my free speech, and presented enough information and food for thought for others to 1) contemplate whether the right to free speech should be curtailed according to the arguments made by BK, 2) whether ‘anti-vaxers’ really are talking through their hats or whether they have amassed their own substantial and convincing body of evidence, and 3) whether in fact there is some substance to questions over vaccine safety. You have been a complete charlie throughout, on the other hand, and nobody thanks you for your surly and useless contributions.

  105. Toni Reid

    The ability to debate the validity of theories and ideas facilitates scientific progress. Medical science, and hence the theory of vaccination, is constantly changing, discovering new facets and discarding the old. To assume that there is no discussion to be had on the topic, and that the science behind vaccination has been perfected would be the height of ignorance. A quick look at current medical literature will verify this. So how is censorship the answer? Why should we be unable to talk about the measles outbreak in New York where fully vaccinated people are spreading the disease, or about the pertussis vaccine that the FDA admits is spreading whooping cough? As Carl Sagan said “A central lesson of science is that to understand complex issues (or even simple ones), we must try to free our minds of dogma and to guarantee the freedom to publish, to contradict, and to experiment. Arguments from authority are unacceptable.“ Your proposal Mr Keane, would take us back to being flat-earthers.

  106. Sean

    Thank you for that concise and cogent summary, Toni. Just as Galileo (apocryphally?) invited the pope and cardinals to look at the moons of Jupiter through his new-fangled telescope, and they declined, so have many pro-vaxers turned universal vaccination into a categorical religion where they conveniently overlook adverse reactions and indeed variously seem to deny they exist at all or find ways to systematically under-report them depending on their mood, and turn on anyone doing the analysis in a feeding frenzy. They also distort reality by conflating 3rd world living conditions with 1st world conditions in their propaganda. Hence my observation that the vaccination belief system is like a religion, set up, perversely enough, to pander to big business profits and making doctors look important, to simultaneously maintain their high priest status and their high incomes. I believe the morbidity and mortality rate from the vax program in the 1st world is easily as high as the expected rates from the wild diseases themselves, and possibly higher. Either way, that is a lot of expense for a net zero result.

  107. Chris Hartwell

    Thank you Sean – you’ve effectively argued that further vaccinations are required.

  108. Sean

    um, how is that, Chris? Are you completely stupid? Or just a troll trying to get a rise?

  109. Sean

    This is a good summary that just came to me on FB. The link will be held up in moderation forever here, of course, so I might post it separately following. The article is long, and the quote below will also probably put this post in moderation. But the article is worth a read.

    Please stop telling people vaccine injuries are rare and brushing off individuals who have suffered vaccine injuries. Vaccines are associated with serious adverse reactions like: Blood and lymphatic system disorders, immune system disorders, myocarditis, nervous system disorders, convulsions, seizures, encephalitis (brain swelling), facial palsy, skin disorders, sudden infant death (SIDS), death, meningitis, paralysis, anaphylactic shock, skin and tissue disorders, eczema, lower respiratory infections, cerebrovascular accident, transverse myelitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, Bell’s palsy, aseptic meningitis, pneumonia, ringing in the ears, multiple sclerosis, myelitis including transverse myelitis, seizure, febrile seizure, peripheral neuropathy, herpes zoster, migraines, neurological syndromes, chronic arthritis, hearing loss, rheumatoid arthritis, vasculitis, neuropathy, and vaccine-strain versions of chicken pox, measles, mumps, polio, influenza, meningitis, yellow fever, and pertussis. For a list of other exciting (yet downplayed) reactions check out the package inserts here. To view the VAERS database where you will find more adverse reactions reported including deaths, click here.

    Everyone knows a vaccine-injured child. Conditions we consider “normal” like ear infections, food allergies, and eczema were unheard of in the days of our grandparents. Asthma, diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, autism, Crohn’s disease, epilepsy, brain encephalitis, developmental disorders, and neurological problems were also uncommon. So we traded in polio (which according to the CDC is asymptomatic in 95% of people who actually get it) for vaccine induced paralytic polio and cancer via contaminated Salk vaccines. We traded in chicken pox for shingles, anaphylaxis shock, and death; measles for brain encephalitis; and the minuscule chance an infant would get Hep b for rheumatoid arthritis and SIDS. If we’re going with the touted 1 in 1,000 mortality number for measles, wouldn’t it make sense to question the MMR vaccine which could cause Measles-Induced Neuroautistic Encephalophathy, seizures, coma, and death?

  110. David Hand

    Sean,
    My wife has multiple sclerosis. As a sufferer, she and I have widely read about the as yet unknown causes of this auto-immune disease. And here you are in Crikey, publishing an outlandish article which blames just about every communicable disease known to man, including MS, on vaccination. Do you really think the MS community would roll over just so big pharmaceutical companies can keep pushing vaccines that cause MS?

    You’ve really drunk the cool aid mate.

  111. Chris Hartwell

    Sean, the logic is simple: If (and that’s a big if, but for purpose of argument I’ll grant it) vaccinated populations are carrying and spreading mutated variants of illnesses previously vaccinated against, clearly further vaccinations are required to handle the mutated strains.

    LOGIC

  112. Sean

    1) ‘David Hand’ — yes, that is a known adverse reaction to vaccines, it has been demonstrated, why don’t you do some research of your own and report back to us when you’re done, and you also have to wonder if indeed your wife’s case and countless other cases of MS — a disease that often affects younger women — are triggered by vaccinations they’ve received over the lifespan. The epidemiology has been done on many other childhood diseases examining obvious correlations, although official channels try to suppress those findings.

    All the other syndromes that we KNOW can be triggered by vaccines are immune in nature, including auto-immune attacks on the nervous system. It is therefore definitely scientifically plausible to start with. Whenever ‘modern medicine’ professes a new epidemic to be a ‘mystery’ I start to get suspicious. After all, what has changed in ‘the environment’ in the past few decades? — for most people, it is simply the quantity and scheduled ages of vax events.

    Further, I or the quoted author has not said every case of MS is caused by a vaccine (although who knows whether some, most or all are), rather that MS can be an adverse reaction in some individuals from receiving a vaccine. Your logic is twisted and backwards and a classic common fallacy of argumentation we see from unskilled or deliberately sophistical debaters — I’m still not sure which one you are.

    2) Chris Hartwell, you clearly haven’t been reading about the harms caused by vaccines. If the rates of harm are as high as they appear to be, the last thing you would want to do is take even more vaccines which you conjure up, as you are increasing the risk of harm in susceptible individuals, and indeed magnifying the risk of harm for everyone. In other words, you insist it is ‘LOGICAL’ to keep playing Russian Roulette over and over and keep spinning the chamber, putting the gun to your head and pulling the trigger, and somehow the odds remain the same at 1 in 6 that the bullet is in place this time? You clearly 1) cannot think logically at all, 2) have no idea whatsoever about medical risks concerning vaccinations, the variety of vaxes, the adjuvants used, in how different ways vaxes are made all of which introduce different dangers in terms of ARs and allergic and auto-immune reactions, and so on. It’s akin to saying you will drink a cup out of every single container you find under the sink but the danger will remain the same. Your attempt at an argument, juvenile and witless though it is, only makes sense if it was the case that vaccines were perfectly safe, or several orders of magnitude safer than having the wild disease in the community at whatever level of infection and spread — after all, not everyone reacts the same way to all diseases, nor does everyone catch every disease in circulation, whereas universal vaccination requires 100% of the population to be vaxed and exposes the entire population to risks associated with ARs to the vax. (An early estimate of the real level needed to achieve so called ‘herd immunity’ is only 68% in fact, except herd immunity is obviously a fallacy. If you bothered to read the link I posted immediately above.) However, not only have you not bothered to read the article linked above and think about it, or any other link examining vaccine safety realistically, but you also fail to engage your brain utterly, presumably every day of your life. LOGIC – you don’t have any.

  113. Sean

    Let me amend the last syntax there a bit before I’m accused of some sort of probabilistic naivety:

    “somehow the odds remain the same at 1 in 6 that the bullet is in place this time?” should read more like “no matter how many trials somehow the total experimental odds remain the same at 1 in 6 that the bullet won’t get you?”

    More to do with the minimalistic crappy commenting interface here and the lack of ability to edit first drafts.

  114. Sean

    Here you go, David Hand, 5 seconds of googling. Assuming you are not just a shill, I was tempted to tell you that you are a complete moron, but luckily I resisted the urge. No link posted as it will be held up in moderation forever. Go and find it yourself you lazy git from the text fragments.

    All eyes are on Vaccine Court this week, as people await rulings in the autism “test cases” on MMR and thimerosal. But another omnibus proceeding involving Hepatitis B vaccine and autoimmune disorders in adults, including MS, has already been quietly ruling in favor of several petitioners. (HERE)

    The most recent case was announced about a week ago. In it, the Court ruled that the victim, an adult female, had contracted a form of demyelinating disease and MS, and eventually died, after receiving the Hepatitis B vaccine series. It was just the most recent case in a rash of rulings in the omnibus proceeding dealing with hepatitis B vaccine and “demyelinating diseases such as transverse myelitis (TM), Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS), chronic inflammatory demyelinating disease (CIDP), and multiple sclerosis (MS),” according to court papers.

  115. Sean

    Myelin is the fatty acid sheath that protects and insulates nerve cells and the brain. Some people with autoimmune disorders, including MS, present with damage to myelin in the brain.

    Myelin damage has long been suspected in autism, though the jury is still out on this question. One thing that does seem to be certain is that children with ASD appear to have unusually high levels of antibodies to myelin basic protein, or MBP. That would suggest they might have myelin damage as well. Some studies have also shown highly elevated levels (up to 90%) of MBP antibodies in ASD children who received the MMR vaccine. The development of MBP antibodies could possibly be caused by a reaction to the live measles virus in the vaccine, because the virus may mimic the molecular structure of MBP. (The finding of antibodies to MBP is also associated with MS, which is a demyelinating disorder).

    This vaccine-myelin association was also supported by a study in the October, 2008 issue of the journal Neurology. It reported that exposure to Hep B vaccine in children was associated with a 50% increased risk for CNS inflammatory demyelination of 50 percent (OR: 1.50; 0.93–2.43). This was especially true for children who got GlaxoSmithKline’s Engerix B vaccine, in which case the risk was elevated by 74% (1.74; 1.03–2.95). Among ASD children with confirmed multiple sclerosis, the risk increased by 177% (2.77; 1.23–6.24).

    “Hepatitis B vaccination does not generally increase the risk of CNS inflammatory demyelination in childhood,” the authors concluded. “However, the Engerix B vaccine appears to increase this risk, particularly for confirmed multiple sclerosis, in the longer term. Our results require confirmation in future studies.”

  116. Sean

    Equally intriguing, along these lines, is a new study published in the Journal of Child Neurology. That paper reported that “anti-myelin-associated glycoprotein positivity” was found in a stunning 62.5% of the autistic children studied. And, a family history of autoimmunity was five times more common in ASD children (50%) than controls (9.4%).

    “Anti-myelin-associated glycoprotein serum levels were significantly higher in autistic children than those without such history,” the authors wrote. “Autism could be, in part, one of the pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders. Further studies are warranted to shed light on the etiopathogenic role of anti-myelin-associated glycoprotein antibodies and the role of immunotherapy in autism.”

    This information is tantalizing, to say the least. And it could provide new avenues of research into the role of vaccines, demyelinating diseases, “autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders,” and autism.

    If the HepB series can destroy myelin in some kids and adults, and cause full-blown MS in adults, then is it really that “fringe” to investigate the plausibility of a biological mechanism whereby some vaccines (including MMR) in a subset of susceptible infants might produce symptoms that are characteristic of autism and/or other neuro-developmental disorders?

    For years, the US Government and the IOM have insisted that Hepatitis B vaccine does not and can not cause MS. But the Federal Vaccine Court has now, essentially, overturned that opinion. Will the Court now do the same for vaccines and autism? I don’t think so – not this week. But it just might keep that door slightly ajar for the future.

  117. David Hand

    Hey Sean,
    I went out an left my office keys on my desk. I guess my forgetfulness is a clear indication of the damage vaccination did to me.

    You are merely quoting from anti-vaccination activist websites. There are people making a living from such places. They do a lot of damage by undermining confidence in medical science.

    Your fundamentalist zeal is impressive but as with all conspiracy theories, completely divorced from the real world.

    NASA never got a man to the moon. 911 was an inside job. The Rockefellers and the Rothschilds have been running the world for the past 1000 years. Vaccination has caused the autism epidemic. JFK was shot by the CIA.

  118. Sean

    So, David Hand, the ruling of the US vaccine court on a number of occasions linking MS to Hep B vax events is just a fabrication of ‘anti-vaccination activist websites’? They’re just making up the US vaccine court rulings now? I mean, we can’t verify that ruling?

  119. Sean

    How do you make a living from telling ppl they SHOULDN’T get a particular medical treatment or intervention, as it may harm them, or the net result in the community is as bad or worse than the wild disease itself?

    I mean, the ppl making money in this are the doctors, the pharmos, and the pharmaceutical companies. There is little to no money to be made in recommending someone NOT receive a treatment, or delay it to a later age, or just select a limited number of vaccines to protect against the most dangerous wild diseases out there where there is actually some risk of contracting them still.

    Your logic is way off once again, David Hand. You seem to be very ‘good’ with all those other conspiracy theories you’ve listed also, you’re a bit seasoned as a self-appointed ‘debunker’, are you?

  120. David Hand

    Sean
    I’m merely improving my understanding of an issue that I haven’t paid much attention to so far by challenging statements you have made and then reading your responses.

    The influence of anti-vaccination activists within educated middle class sections of our community is a fascinating phenomenon. How is it that so many people can be influenced to take action to their own children’s risk by refusing vaccination is worthy of study.

    I’ve been studying you. Your deep knowledge of the anti vaccination movement and references to the sources they use has been very helpful.

    For example I now know what the vaccine court is and that knowledge will help me influence people to vaccinate their children should they express doubts to me.

  121. Sean

    um, right David. Strange logic again, and rather an odd bod. Who are these ‘people’ you are going to influence? I mean, it’s obvious you couldn’t have any friends.

  122. Chris Hartwell

    True Sean, my arguments so far are juvenile – unfortunately, that’s all you deserve. The link you claim exists between the MMR vaccine and autism has only ever been demonstrated in Wakefield’s research, and he has been disgraced by the fact that he falsified data to obtain that conclusion.

    Your claims of harm from wild strains being less than the harms caused by adverse reaction to vaccine is overblown and unsubstantiated, and a common technique used in what is essentially the vaccine equivalent of climate-change denialism. Protip: You’re the denialist in this context.

    At the risk of substantial moderation time, I present to you: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement

    As the unfortunate sheep who seek to harm children so often say, educate yourself. (oh snap, did I just intentionally use a common tactic of the anti-vaccine movement? I THINK I DID!)

  123. Jen Smith

    To the poster below asking about vaccine ingredients and wanting a link, this is a helpful link that contains the package inserts for each standard vaccine. It includes ingredients, known side effects, and some of the potential adverse reactions that have been reported. http://vactruth.com/vaccine-inserts/

  124. Sean

    hmm, greatly increased RR of juvenile diabetes in 12 yos from the Hep B vaccination program:

    “In 1991, the Italian government implemented a mandatory hepatitis B immunization program, requiring all children to receive the vaccine when they either reached three months or twelve years of age. No vaccinations were given at any other age to people in the study, and no catch-up vaccination program was implemented for children between those ages. In their study, the scientists measured the incidence of type-I diabetes in vaccinated and unvaccinated children from central Italy. They also measured the differences related to their ages at the times they were vaccinated. The overall relative risk of type I diabetes in vaccinated versus unvaccinated children was 1.34. This means that any children who received the hepatitis B vaccine would be 34% more likely to develop diabetes than unvaccinated children. While this overall risk of diabetes may not seem that great, the statistics took a dramatic increase in children who were vaccinated at age twelve. In that group, the relative risk was measured at 2.58. In other words, children who received the hepatitis B vaccine at age twelve were more than 2.5 times as likely to be diagnosed with type I diabetes as their unvaccinated peers. Based on their findings, the scientists concluded that children inoculated with the hepatitis B vaccine are at an increased risk of type I diabetes. They also suggested that “hepatitis B vaccine per se, or the timing of administration, must be reconsidered to reduce the risk associated with it” (4).

    Several large studies conducted in the 1990s have provided convincing evidence that vaccines may be associated with the development of type-1 diabetes. In New Zealand in 1996, researchers saw a 60% increase in childhood diabetes cases after the country had a mass hepatitis B vaccination campaign from 1988 to 1991 for infants six weeks and older. Finland has had a vaccination programs for decades, and J. Barthelow Claasen, M.D., a former researcher at the National Institute of Health, has been documenting a vaccine-diabetes connection. In Infectious Disease in Clinical Practice, he reported that the incidence of diabetes in Finland was stable in children younger than four years of age until the government modified its immunization schedule. In 1974 a total of 130,000 children aged three months to four years received HIB or meningitis vaccine. In 1976, the government added a second pertussis strain to its pertussis vaccine. Between 1977 and 1979, the incidence of type-1 diabetes increased by 64% compared to 1970 to 1976. Overall, childhood diabetes increased by 147% in children younger than three years after all the vaccine changes were made (5).

    Funny that the Aus govt never advises or warns anyone about these things going into their universal vaccination campaigns, choosing instead to demonise anyone who wants to exercise their right of informed consent and power of guardianship. Aided and abetted by BK, Rupert Murdoch (whose son is coincidentally on the board of a pharma co), and the vaccine industry.

    David Hand will continue to insist that all these findings are ‘fabrications’ only found on ‘antivaxing websites’ — i.e sites set up to try to inform the public fairly about vax risks. Another circular argument from DH — any site that contains adverse info about vaxes is an anti-vax site, and any anti-vax site is invalid.

    So the quality of arguments we’ve seen from the pseudo-scientists and pseudo-sceptics and medical vested interests so far have all been one of:

    – appeals to emotion ignoring the true stats
    – appeals to authority
    – circular reasoning and definitions

    pretty amazing stuff. and you wonder why I compare them to 16th century Catholic universities denying the size of the universe and clinging to the heliocentric model to retain power.

  125. Chris Hartwell

    I’m sure you mean the geocentric model Sean. Know your argument before you make it.

    Naturally, the increase in diabetes would have nothing to do with the increase in availability of over-sugared snacks? No, of course not. Do check that link I provided.

  126. Sean

    Chris Hartwell, the heliocentric model replaced the geocentric model — the Catholic church would have liked to have retained the geocentric model — that was my point. For you to even childishly raise a non-point like that as some form of illegitimate argumentation — and to get it reversed as well — confirms you are a juvenile idiot in case there was any doubt in any readers’ minds.

    There is no way parents are feeding their kids massive amounts of sugary drinks, nor that having that level of sugar would cause juvenile diabetes if they were. Most parents are responsible with their infants’ and young childrens’ sugar intake, and we see no reports of correlation between the two in any study — because doctors know it is not the real cause. We are talking about Type 1 — an auto-immune problem attacking the pancreas, not the acquired Type II disease potentially caused by excessive sugar consumption over many years by adults.

    “Type 1 diabetes, also known as insulin-dependent diabetes, is commonly thought to be caused by a combination of genetic predisposition and an environmental trigger, which causes the immune system to target and kill off its own insulin producing cells.

    What triggers the immune system to behave this way is not yet well understood.”

  127. Chris Hartwell

    Ah, so your wording was merely clumsy (please re-read what you wrote – you’ll understand why I wrote what I did then. Clarity is key in making a good argument after all.)

    Moving on. Apology accepted. Have you checked the link I provided yet? I note that you either don’t dispute – or are ignoring – the reason I reject your claim of a link between the MMR vaccination and autism, namely it hasn’t been replicated outside of – now-retracted as falsified – research conducted by the now-disgraced Andrew Wakefield, and have instead moved on to arguments around diabetes.

  128. Chris Hartwell

    Also, in regards to your issue with appeals to authority: The appeal to authority is indeed a logical fallacy. When the authority is a false one (see my comment about a neurologist refusing to vaccinate.) If the authority is legitimate, it’s not a fallacy. For context, if we were to consult an electrical engineer about bridge design, and the engineer concludes that given-bridge-design A couldn’t possibly work, yet a civil engineer concludes otherwise, portraying the electrical engineer as authoritative would be a fallacious appeal to authority. Doing the same for the civil engineer wouldn’t, despite both being engineers.

  129. Sean

    I’m not going into the whole Wakefield story on this lousy commenting board. I’m happy to go into it elsewhere, including multimedia links to current interviews with Andrew Wakefield, etc etc.

    Andrew Wakefield insists that 10 out of 12 authors were bullied into retracting their research contributions into his paper, 2 retain their position.

    Apparently other studies have been done confirming the presence of measles in the gut of autistic children who have been vaccinated with MMR vaccine — which was his original case study premise, nothing more. He never linked autism to the MMR vaccine in his paper per se, although he was being approached by a lot of parents. He maintains that his methodology was quite sound as it was a multi-case study, not some kind of large scale epidemiological survey or RCT.

    Your argument that ‘his findings have never been replicated’ is ridiculous, because you cannot ‘replicate’ a case study, you can confirm the findings in other patients, or run a much larger study. Apparently, in fact, the result has been found in other studies, I will leave it as an exercise for the gentle readers to go and google those studies for themselves. In fact, it has been established that vaccines can cause the infection of the actual disease itself in subjects, so it should come as no surprise that Wakefield detected measles virus in the gut of these autistic children who had received MMR vaxes.

    Your claim that Wakefield claimed an autism-MMR link or causation in his study is completely wrong, and juvenile again, Chris Hartwell, it’s another piece of incorrect folklore in the provaxing religion that shows you haven’t researched the topic for yourself, just like all the contributors who research nothing and live off third hand received wisdom from vested interest sources.

    If you google ‘Wakefield interview’ you will find any number of recent video interviews with Andrew Wakefield outlining both his own personal experiences and his ongoing concerns about vaccine safety, right up to the present day.

    You ‘accept’ my non-existent apology and accuse me of ‘ignoring’ your typically uninformed Wakefield barbs earlier — which I hadn’t actually seen or read, to be honest, as I know all the provaxers’ remarks broadly aren’t worth reading, and skim them superficially — especially all the usual folklore about Wakefield — but you still haven’t apologised for your completely uninformed and unknowledgeable conflation of Type I and Type II diabetes in children — another convenient conflation like the claims that unvaccinated kids are spreading pertussis and measles when it turns out it’s the supposedly ‘immunised’ kids who are spreading the wild disease. Another ‘inconvenient truth’ for the vested interests.

  130. David Hand

    Hey Sean,
    Now that you’re defending Wakefield, you’ve confirmed to me that you should stop commenting.

    I’m not trying to shut you up, as this thread is really about free speech. I’m just offering some friendly advice.

  131. Toni Reid

    As we saw with Andrew Wakefield, it’s pretty much professional suicide to speak up about the efficacy and/or safety of vaccines. I guess that is why most medical professionals choose not to enter the debate, whatever they may feel about it personally. However study after study confirms vaccine failure,but being unable to mention the lack of clothing on the Emperor will usually include at the end of the summary a placatory phrase such as ” extra doses of the vaccine may be required” or gobbledygook like “it has been hypothesised that high attack rates in vaccinees only occur under conditions of intense exposure”

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