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Apr 23, 2013

What Nick Cater's book gets wrong about Australia (basically everything)

Australia is a culture of collectivism, not individualism, and no matter what Nick Cater says in his new book, we will never be American go-getters.

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The bombs of Oz journalist Nick Cater are dropping thick and fast everywhere, with an extract — free this time — of his book The Lucky Culture in yesterday’s Spiked. It is deliciously unironic — the employee of a family firm that controls 70% of the press and a fair slice of the screen prating on about the absence of privilege in the Lucky Country. Its purpose is purely ideological, but we’ll get to that in a bit. First the hilarious parts. Get this:

” … something particularly refreshing hangs in the egalitarian breeze as soon as you step off the plane [in Australia]. Customs and immigration officers command respect, not because they are wearing uniforms, but because they are earning an honest living, just like the taxi driver you sit next to, not behind.”

God, yes. Nothing to do with the fact they can arrest you, or slip on the latex glove. The country that is known to the world for its paranoia about boats, and for pioneering the fusion of border patrols and reality TV is not hung up on uniforms at all. Here’s something else in that vein:

“Paradoxically, egalitarianism is a force for financial inequality, since it offers an incentive to rise above the crowd, to achieve whatever your imagination desires. It is the motive force of personal and national progress, mining the inner resource Americans call ‘grit’, the British call ‘courage’ and Australians call ‘mongrel'”

Yes, a trend is emerging. Cater, Brit by birth, is doing a bit of home-grown antipodeanism, that great tradition whereby marginal elements of Oz culture are brought to the centre. The litmus test of this used to be “cobber”, a word last used unironically in about 1973, but which we were assured was something we produced at the drop of an Akubra. Now apparently, whether watching Breaking Bad, ordering new paperclips for the office or performing brain surgery, we all bark “mongrel” at each other.

This is fantasy-land Australia, a caricature for naked political purpose. It’s a retelling of the Bush Myth, the way in which a rapidly suburbanising nation that consolidated into a class society preserved an idea of rugged individualism for itself. In this new myth, Australians were American-style individualists from the start. Hence the argument that we used “egalitarianism of manners” to allow people to “rise above the crowd”.

“How could you have a country where each city could sustain an entire league of football teams without a fundamentally tribalist notion of culture and self?”

Seriously, is he f-cking kidding? This is a country that was created out of a series of collective strikes in the 1890s by shearers, sailors and others — strikes in which solidarity was enforced with whatever violence might be necessary. The capital-labour conflict produced a truce in 1907 with the “harvester” judgment, which gave the state the right to set wages. The banking system was dominated by state-owned banks and overseas concerns in equal measure. Utilities were publicly owned from the start. The entire agricultural system ran not as metaphorical but as actual socialism, in which the government practised monopsony (the only buyer in town) to maintain a rural sector that would not have survived through market forces.

For 80 years, the shape of Australian life was this: you went to a state school, or a small Catholic one, subsidised by the government. You graduated to a mid-range job whose terms and conditions were set by lawyers arguing behind closed doors, and applied to everyone from Broome to Bicheno. You bought your house with a state bank loan, and its value was as a house, not some floating shorted futures-debenture that happened to be in bricks and mortar form. Women earned 55% of men’s wages and were sacked when they married. You got your power from the SEC, your phone from the PNG and then Telecom. You watched four channels of TV, and if Frank Packer wanted one of them to run a horse-race six times because he kept missing it, you had to watch it too. The shops closed at noon on Saturday, and there was not a skerrick of commerce for the next 43 hours, until nine on Monday morning. Some 70% of workers were in unions, which won them, successively, the eight-hour day, the full weekend, sick leave, and then that unique institution, long-service leave, 13 weeks on the company dollar — an incentive towards immobility, to hang on where you were for that next sweet break. And on the day of your 65th birthday — which you had specified in the employment form you filled in when joining BHP or Myer or the public service when you joined at 16 — you retired without question and played bowls for a few years, until the high-fat diet laid you out.

Through all that time you worked for businesses owned by the relatively small Australian ruling class, or by Brits beyond them, or by Americans from the 50s onward, or by the state. The Oz ruling class, until the 1970s, resided in a self-contained Melbourne networks, who all began each conversation by asking which of 15 schools you went to. There were a series of interlaced families: the Clarks, the Wentworths, the Packers, the Murdochs … you may have heard of some of them.

Sure, occasionally someone jumped out sideways, started a milkbar, got a pub licence. Very occasionally, you knew someone who made it big. But it was quite possible for millions of Australians to go through life without knowing anyone who had done significantly better than them, whose life had been significantly different.

The Australian idea of life was collective. You could say from this vantage point that it was limited and repressive, and many people thought so too, and got out as soon as they could. But much of what we value, much of what makes us Australian, comes from that collective source. Our music, our TV, our best-loved movies emphasise not imagination and projection but acceptance. We’ve got Flame Trees, about returning to your home town and accepting loss, the US has got Don’t Stop Believin’. They’ve got Field of Dreams, we’ve got The Castle. Try as you might, you can’t turn Australia into America, unless you are fundamentally alien to its ways. A collective culture necessarily involves a limiting, a process of pulling people back from individual achievement. Overwhelmingly, this was expressed in sport. How could you have a country where each city could sustain an entire league of football teams without a fundamentally tribalist notion of culture and self?

The past 30 years have changed that substantially in Australia. But not as much as people like Nick Cater would think, or want us to think. Indeed, it’s that ignorance that may well have ushered in the Gillard/Rudd era — for News Limited encouraged, nay, baited, former PM John Howard, once he had got control of the Senate, in 2004, to introduce WorkChoices, exactly the sort of system that would reflect Cater’s idea of us. What did the Australian public do? They rejected it, the party that proposed it, and the PM that helmed it, out of hand. Without WorkChoices, Howard might still be prime minister, a new Robert Menzies. But Howard let himself be distanced from the people he represented, listened to the alien, Americophile Murdoch sycophants, and imposed something on Australians that a century of levelling-socialist-centralism had inured them against.

How do otherwise sensible people get themselves into such mindsets? By feeding themselves a mythology that becomes total in its purchase.Here’s Cater on our culture:

“Australians are not held back by the social rigidity that saps the British; they frown on the dispiriting nepotism that drains the energy from some developing economies; they would never succumb to the voodoo fatalism that disempowers the people of some cultures from changing their lives for better or worse; Australians (at least until recently) were not allowed to wallow in the mire of victimhood, which becomes a permanent excuse for failure.”

OK, let’s do this backwards. No culture of victimhood? Nick should have talked to my grandma, who started work in the Geelong mills in the 1920s and would, even in the 1980s, talk of “the money power”, the vaguely anti-Semitic portrayal of British finance capital as screwing the country up. “The money power” is forgotten these days, but it marshalled hundreds of thousands of voters away from the non-Labor parties in the ’20s and ’30s. Seriously, how can you celebrate Menzies’ invoking of the “forgotten people”, and in practically the same paragraph, say that we do not go in for “victimhood”?

It was all a piece with another victim myth, that of Gallipoli, in which our national identity was founded in opposition, not to the Turks — with whom we had no quarrel — but against the British, who had allegedly ordered us into that disastrous venture. That they had suffered greater casualties was of no matter. A sense of loss and victimhood, via military disaster, is the hole at the centre of our culture, something that makes it the opposite of the pseudo-American culture Cater would want it to be.

As to the rest of it. You want voodoo fatalism? Try the demarcation system, whereby the building industry — as one among a dozen — was governed by several thousand pages of case law as to who could pick up a piece of scaffolding or not. Social rigidity? Australian equality was, like it or not, an equality of outcome. Equality of outcome performed the function it always does in cultures — it relieved people from the worry that someone might suddenly do somewhat better than them, and make them feel like shit. That’s how collective cultures work, for better or worse — they create meaning by binding people’s fate up together.

Like most individualists, Cater would most like to posit the US as a positive example. But of course he can’t. Because it’s so obvious that the US is a smoking ruin, with a permanent working poor, that it has become indefensible. The only way for the Caters of the world to square that result is to pretend that the Australia was really the US all along.

A sense of loss and victimhood, via military disaster, is the hole at the centre of our culture, something that makes it the opposite of the pseudo-American culture Cater would want it to be.

That might of course, be simple ignorance. Here’s Cater on the founding of Australia:

“Australia, unlike America, was settled in the age of Enlightenment. When the Pilgrim Fathers sighted the Massachusetts coast in 1620, they gathered for a Bible reading; when the First Fleet arrived in Sydney Cove, the new arrivals knuckled down to work; it was eight days before the chaplain could organise a church service. It is not the hand of God or the hand of fate that built Australia but human ingenuity and human labour. There was no need to succumb to fatalism and just wait for something to turn up because something already had: its people.”

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Quite aside from the inconvenient fact that establishing Australia meant clearing away another people entirely, the “new arrival” at Sydney Cove was not the people, it was the state, pure and simple. It consisted of two categories only: state functionaries (i.e. soldiers) and state chattels (i.e. convicts). There wasn’t a free person among them. And if Cater thinks they “knuckled down to work”, then perhaps he should work his way through John Howard’s failed curriculum and read, well, any history book. Whether or not, as some have suggested, Australia began with a giant gang bang on the beach, numerous eyewitness accounts — most particularly that of Watkin Tench — show that although they were knuckled down to work, with the whip and the knout, the early colony collapsed into chaos and disorder quite early.

Still, maybe the stuff on how we hate nepotism is right. If you’d like to submit an article to The Australian about how anti-nepotistic we are, send it to Rebecca Weisser, recent op-ed editor, or to Nick Cater himself. Same difference. They are, after all, partners. If you’d like to make a TV show about it, contact Lachlan Murdoch at Channel Ten. If you’d like to make a theatre show about it, contact Michael Kantor, Rupert Murdoch’s nephew, ex-Malthouse head, who honed his craft for years on a trust fund coming from guess who. Welcome to Australian culture and power.

 

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50 thoughts on “What Nick Cater’s book gets wrong about Australia (basically everything)

  1. zut alors

    A great read, Mr Rundle – points well made to counter the blow in, Cater.

    However, allow me to clarify that our original family telephone was supplied by The Postmaster General (PMG) and was not sourced from Papua New Guinea (PNG).

  2. paddy

    Bravo!
    Definitely worth the price of admission today Guy.

  3. Andrew Norton

    “For 80 years, the shape of Australian life was this: you went to a state school, or a small Catholic one, subsidised by the government.”

    Small Catholic schools were not subsidised by the state during the period Guy is talking about. But consistent with the overall statist culture he is describing they wanted to get those subsidies, and eventually did.

  4. archibald

    Guy, just a query on the utilities bit: my understanding is that – in the case of Melbourne at least – the gas and electric utilities were initially in private hands. In the financial crash of the 1890s, many companies and banks went bust and these included the private utility companies. The state government stepped in and take over the running of the utilities out of necessity.

  5. Peter Murphy

    60s Australia sounds like a good place to grow up (if you were white and male). But damn it sounds boring. That’s why dad – emigrating from the UK – went to Canada in the 60s. They had The Band and Leonard Cohen as musical exports. Australia had Rolf Harris and John Farnham.

    It would be nice to get some more egalitarianism without the mediocrity described in “The Lucky Country”.

  6. Peter Walters

    Brilliant Guy – your best in a long while. May Cater’s influence be confined to the op-ed pages of The Australian, where it belongs.

  7. Bob the builder

    Good work on countering the re-writing of history that’s going on. Perhaps Australia was boring and racist (unlike our current refugee-welcoming society!), but there was much that was good that has been comprehensively attached and undermined.
    I remember when one of the last Gallipoli diggers died and Howard did his usual flag-waving bullshit, neglecting to mention the bloke had been a staunch and active unionist his whole life.

  8. Mike Smith

    Who was the Aussie comedian with the soporific style that used to do this? Killing myself trying to remember.

  9. drmick

    I was in one of those little convents in the 60`s and yes we eventually got money; the price though was unnatural and cruel. It involved having a picture of the bloody queen on the wall of the school. I couldn’t understand why she wasn’t on a cross? Still can’t.

  10. Patrick Howard

    Sitting beside the cab driver? Now there’s a custom more observed in the breach, at least here in Elizabeth Bay.

  11. Jay Dubbler

    Really good piece. Thanks. Enjoyed it a lot.

  12. Spica

    Bloody good cobber, you really nailed this galah.

  13. mikeb

    FWIW I still say cobber at times and in the 60’s was more into Billy Thorpe, Easybeats, Loved Ones, and Masters Apprentices than Rolf H. I’m afraid Leonard Cohen has never done it for me.

  14. Will

    Brilliant stuff. There are strands of rugged individualism certainly, but its a complete misreading of Australian history and culture to cast us as pinnacle of atomistic expression.

  15. rubiginosa

    Yesterday was the five month anniversary of Nick Cater’s “Ultimo Spring”, that brief period when Cater’s letter-writers were about to force reforms at the ABC before Steven Conroy’s tanks rolled in. Probably. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/media/opinion/our-cash...

  16. Harry1951

    As an immigrant Aussie I say this is a jolly good piece. Gongrats, old man!

  17. Malcolm Street

    IMHO one of the main reasons for Australia having less individualistic traditions than the US is the natural environment – in this land of droughts and flooding rains you could be easily be wiped out by force of nature, ie your fortune was always more a matter of luck than the US.

    Incidentally, re. more recent Australian history, I would have thought the Hawke government’s Accord, which saved us from the social disintegration of the US and UK, and the four pillars bank policy, which saved us from the GFC, are both examples of our more collectivist, dirigiste, culture.

  18. klewso

    “Elliot Goblet”?

  19. klewso

    What’s his next project – Howard’s biography “Sodom – My Part in His Downfall”?

  20. Peter Fuller

    Bob the Builder (9)
    It sounds like you’re thinking of Alec Campbell; in fact he was the longest-surviving Gallipoli veteran when he died in 2002, aged 103. His wiki entry confirms your recollection about his career and his resistance to the attempt by conservatives within politics and the veterans’ community to use him as a symbol of their version of history.

  21. dirt armature

    That period from Harvester1907 until the 1970s is dominated by what I call the social liberal labourist armature. The armature’s unwinding accelerated with the collapse of the Bretton Woods currency system, leading to the 1983 financial reforms recommended by the Campbell Review and implemented by Hawke-Keating Labor.
    In terms of earnings and assett wealth, Australian society has become more unequal since the demise of the armature. Australian political culture now endorses the fundamental concept of neoliberalism which is that we fail or flourish as individuals on the basis of how entrepreneurial we are willing to be with our personal human capital. Labor tries to repair and make social the damage caused by this deeply embedded concept without seeking to remove it. Indeed, we have 2 major parties of human capital whose differences are cast in terms of high drama by a media increasingly devoid of historical perspective.
    Cater’s book arrives into this moment of political and media amnesia. Guy nails it’s ideological purpose and only has to line up some facts, history and uncomfortable truths to blow its claims about national character and culture over. Based on the excerpts published so far this latest culture war missive has a flimsy structure. As the coming Abbott government becomes increasingly beholden to the Murdoch intelligentsia it is heartening to know the elite knowledge workers of News like Cater have little left in the tank. At some point new ideas and even a new armature might start to emerge.

  22. Bob the builder

    @Peter Fuller (21)
    Yes, that’s him. In microcosm, an example of the odious re-writing of history and the co-option of the predominant anti-authoritarian, anti-war ethos of the diggers.
    Lest we forget indeed!

  23. edumf

    Guy, your last paragraph has a particular resonance.

    It is useful to note that Rupert Murdoch, as a former Australian citizen retains a deep affection for this country and an aspiration that it develop in his own image. He is the most powerful non-elected politician in this country, and according to my recollection hasn’t last an election here in 50 years. No wonder Tony Abbott makes his frequent pilgrimages to the headquarters of the oh so aptly named News Limited offices in Sydney !

  24. Hunt Ian

    Guy Rundle could have pinned a good dose of racism and religious intolerance on early Australia too. Still we were not all like Rundle’s stereotype, even if he is absolutely right to knock Cater’s apology for those individual’s that “rise up” above the rest, and to knock the power (even nepotistic) wielded by those who have risen so much they are no longer Australian. Guy refers to some of our high points, which include the strikes from which the Labor party was born, even if Australia retained the English common law principle that strikes are unlawful, and as a result shunted disputes into arbitration. There were many other high points to recognise, even if we did cling to the tail of whichever power was dominant.

    Sure, Gallipoli was not our best moment but celebration of courage even in a lost cause is not craven or a loser’s attitude. The better point of our character is that not all of us get self-righteous and succumb to jingoism- only some do. Only some Australians overseas are cringe worthy and only some are racist and chauvinists still today. These are problems but, apart from being exploited by conservatives to smuggle themselves into power with just a few more votes, are not problems on the same scale as in former imperial centres like the UK, France, or the Netherlands, let alone the US.

    Australians can be proud that discrimination against jews and catholics has largely faded away since the sixties of last century, though we cannot be proud of our track record with aborigines. The greater majority of Australians recognise the repugnance of Nazism or fundamentalist Islam, or any other system of belief that invites followers to kill innocent outsiders, without any recognition that they are killing fellow human beings.

  25. Guy Rundle

    andrew norton –

    fair point. but the funding was in place from 63 onwards, so covered the last quarter of the high statist period – g

  26. 64magpies

    Brilliant as usual. I agree that Australia is more collective than the US culture. But disagree on the extent. My great, great grandmother mother, daughter of a convict and a single mother, was a publican in the outback. My grandmother was the nominated midwife in a rural area. She used drive herself out on horse and cart at night. She also made trips to Sydney to buy supplies which she then sold at homesteads on the way back. There is no way I could just go do equivalent things today as a woman of a lower class. I believe rural people were more independant and self-reliant, they had to be. As a descendant of such people I have had great trouble assimilating into more collective urban culture, and find the cultural roles for women both limited and diminishing.

  27. 64magpies

    Please ignore my comment above. On further reflection, they weren’t individualists, just people on their own trying to survive.

  28. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Guy, a mate from the union movement once told me that long service leave was not in fact an invention of Australian unions but the British Colonial Service. It was designed to allow a good public servant to return home for three months after ten years in the colonies. Perhaps our unions decided this was too good an idea to let go?

  29. Jools

    Hmm, I can only assume you are a member of the “un-Australian clique” of “latte-sippers” and “sneerers” and “wreckers” that wise Miranda Devine describes today. Her endorsement of the notion that it is morally reprehensible for the opinions of “educated” citizens to carry more weight than uneducated ones seemed very sound to me. We certainly shouldn’t give more weight to your opinion than mine, just because you’ve extensively studied and researched the topics you comment on, because I like the sound of my own voice too.

  30. Pusscat

    Thanks so much, Guy.
    I read your piece after listening to Philip Adams’ interview with the odious Cater on Late Night Live last night.
    After hearing it I really wanted to have another bath.
    Then I was saved from despair by your wonderful analysis.
    Please keep on telling the truth, even if it is a lost cause of Gallipolian proportions in these days when lies appear to have the upper hand.

  31. Mike Smith

    @Klewso: No, Eliot was much later. I mustered a few neurons and came up with the name – Clive James.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_James

  32. Jim KABLE

    I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s. As in many places – a microcosm of Australian society: Our (lower) side of the highway leading out of town – the technician-working class/NESB immigrant/solitary Indigenous family side! The other (upper) side: professional to middle class (retired farmers/Town Clerk/teacher/Town Planner/Owner of radio station/first TV station. My neighbours – their kids my playmates. Some went away to school. Some went away after school (me). People were polite and friendly and lives intermingled – but there was no doubting the class divide: If you could have Smokey Dawson & Jingles to your daughter’s birthday party – that clearly spoke of difference – even as one was invited to attend. Nevertheless – there was something about the dignity of work – no matter its importance on a hierarchical scale – and one heard comforting noises all the time that “Jack was as good as…” or that “we are all middle class”! (Though I found out that big lie when I first got to the UK over 40 years ago.) Class may be more disguised here but thank-you Guy RUNDLE for revealing how the present oligarchs are attempting to re-write our national sense of self to their own narrow paradigm!

  33. Jim KABLE

    And both Rolf HARRIS and John FARNHAM btw were born in the UK

  34. Bob the builder

    Interesting example of the Australian instinct today – the RSL (not the clubs) announcing care program for today’s returned soldiers. Civil society communal self-help – I’m sure there’s nothing similar in the US.

  35. Hominoid

    Thanks Guy, great read and I learnt who the f*ck Nick Cater is. If you’re reading this Nick, you’re also wrong about “Customs Officers ….. earning an honest living”. Don’t you read the family newsletter or watch its TV?

  36. heavylambs

    Excellent…please send Cater back to his internship at some Yank Thinktank!

  37. Mike Smith

    @HeavyLambs: Not a *think* tank… Think the rhyming slang for Yanks!

  38. Dogs breakfast

    Who is this Cater guy anyway?

    Easy work for an erudite fellow such as yourself Guy, so much stereotyping in Cater’s work.

    I’ll just comment on the ‘nepotism’ aspect, from someone who has been in Human Resources for 30 + years. Nepotism is alive and well in Oz, don’t doubt it, and in some industries more than others, particularly the media. Worse than this is the ‘old school tie’ which dominates much more than might meet the eye, and privilege begets privilege through these channels much more than many would realise.

    The dull children of the privileged are being legged up mightily through these means, and many people are so desperate to send their children to ridiculously expensive private schools specifically because they either consciously or unconsciously know this. The debate about ‘values’ education is a furphy, it’s all about rubbing up with the ‘right’ people.

    The old school tie is every bit as insidious as nepotism.

  39. Mr Denmore

    Does Murdoch have a mold somewhere turning out Brit hacks like Cater? They all seem to wash up at The Australian, singing from Rupert’s dog-eared songbook about ‘freedom’ and proclaiming Australia as the new USA. Good luck with the citizenship application, Nick.

  40. Kevin Herbert

    Nice work Guy.

  41. Kevin Herbert

    mikeb:

    Agree wholeheartedly particularly with regard to Leonard Cohen.

    One can’t help but notice that the crowds at Leonard Cohen’s concerts were dominated by the same persons who dominated the numbers at the Neil Diamond concert….

    Not surprisingly both performers owe their fame in large part to solid, long term support from the US MSM which is of course dominated by the same people who attended both their concerts.

  42. cck

    classic.

    I wonder if the most Australian of characteristics, ‘tall poppy syndrome’ gets a run in his book?

  43. David Shaw

    This is really well written Guy. The problem i have with Cater is that he distills this whole historical analysis down to a hatred of the Left . His appearance on Q&A was enlightening as to the vacuousness of his argument : that is the ”real” Australians are the cornerstone of our society and that ”inner city elites” are to be despised. Is he serious? As Guy has pointed out the Workchoices legislation showed the con job Howard had performed . Getting a large section of the workforce to believe he was on their side . Then he shafted them . Or tried to. That News Ltd sees the opportunity to exploit the fears of the very people , the “real” people is indicative of the manipulation which it employs almost every day. They have dumbed-down the whole political discussion to one of fear and loathing . It isn’t the inner city elites who look down their noses at “Howard battlers” but the hacks at News Ltd . Like Cater.

  44. Jim KABLE

    cck: In Japan it is the nail which sticks out which gets hammered down. “Tall poppies” is not a concept unique to Australia.

  45. james jenkin

    Guy, interesting nitpicking (Gerard Henderson-style), but you seem to have avoided addressing Cater’s main argument -that there’s a new educated, influential, inner-city elite.

    Any thoughts on that?

  46. Aussie Mangosteen

    James Jenkin is right. Guy you missed the thrust of Cater’s tnesis, people who claim to be educated and intelligent are really screwing the economy for their own benefit. I know this is true. The current government has demonstrated this.

    Furthermore, the myth about Australians being a socialist collective is evident in your article. Unions have played a large role in the organizing of labour in this country, but only where they could hold companies up to ransom. In the residential building market, which is larger than you might realize, individual effort was largely rewarded and still is. The commercial and industrial sites are unionized along with every government enterprise because they are easy to hold to ransom. Although productivity is not really something that government workers understand the same as those who work in the private sector.

    As for your readers who haven’t read the book “The Lucky Culture”, they are just the same as those who agree with everything Tim Blair writes, and obviously consider you to be erudite as those who consider the same of Tim Blair.

    If you are genuinely interested in doing something worthwhile for Australia, here is a question for you:

    If the government gets its money from taxing the very people it employs and subsidizes, how long will it need to find another source to make up for the shortfall?

    Since you’re so knowledgeable, according to some of your readers, you might be able to provide the answer to the above question for all the folk who follow you. You may even solve the budget deficit issues.

  47. Kevin Herbert

    Aussie Mangosteen:

    Your witless response illustrates your position as a classic front bar expert on anything……big on the grand statement, short on the supporting data.

    Your “I know this is true” shows just how little substance you provide.

    Also, would you please expand on your statement that:

    “If the government gets its money from taxing the very people it employs and subsidizes, how long will it need to find another source to make up for the shortfall?

    I just don’t follow.

    Finally, claims presented without supporting data, may be rejected without supporting data.

    End of story old son.

  48. Kevin Herbert

    James Jenkin:

    tell us…”where do the that new educated, influential, inner-city elite” live?

    And how did you identify them?

    You sound like a 2nd rate propogandist attempting to create a faux class enemy, which cannot defend itself, due to its non-existence.

    The old Goebells/CIA/Far righht Zionist charade no less.

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