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Federal

Oct 21, 2011

Doyle breaks up the Occupy Melbourne party in the city square

Victoria Police have acted on Lord Mayor Robert Doyle's demands to evict members of Occupy Melbourne from their indefinite camp in City Square, calling in the force's shield-wielding riot squad to disperse the tent city.

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Victoria Police have acted on Lord Mayor Robert Doyle’s demands to evict members of Occupy Melbourne from their indefinite camp in the City Square, calling in the force’s shield-wielding riot squad to disperse the tent city.

As Crikey‘s deadline approached a core group of about 100 supporters were continuing to resist the overwhelming police presence with the officers employing controversial “kettling” tactics to box the stalwarts in.

A tight ring of around 200 police were corralling those remaining with other loyalists occupying the corner of Swanston and Collins Streets. Police then descended, physically pulling protesters out of the intersection.

Click here to view Crikey’s Occupy Melbourne photo gallery

Much of the camp’s infrastructure — present on the site since last Saturday — had been removed and binned with around 100 protesters linking arms in a show of defiance. The kitchen and media tents were gone this morning with the remaining scaffolding piled into a council truck.

Yesterday, council offers presented occupiers with an eviction notice under the Council’s Activities Local Law 2009 which apparently prohibits camping and “hanging or placing objects” over the square. They were required to move by 9am today.

3AW host Neil Mitchell was quick to get his great mate Doyle on the air this morning to condemn the convergence. Then, on the program’s regular ‘Left & Right’ segment, former unionist Bill Shorten said the occupiers had “had a fair go” and it was “time to move on”.

Premier Ted Baillieu had also backed the eviction.

Police arrested at least two protesters this morning who were led away in handcuffs, despite earlier statements the dispute would be resolved peacefully.

Throughout the stand-off, members of the CFMEU joined in the chanting outside the square, which included the group’s trademark cry of “we are the 99%”, “we shall not be moved” and perennial favourite “the people united will never be defeated.”

Police had erected temporary fences around the perimeter of the protest site in a variation of the kettling tactics seen in the UK. Unfortunately for the Melbourne incarnation, the City Square seemed almost purpose built to hem the masses in, with attendant media perched on elevated vantage points on the square’s perimetre, which increasingly resembled a football field.

Victoria Police tactics are sure to be heavily scrutinised. At one ugly juncture a police horse trampled a protester when riot squad and mounted police charged on the Collins and Swanston intersection.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sKD8QmnxI8[/youtube]

Melbourne City Council is divided on Doyle’s decision to boot the dissenters, who are mobilising against corporate greed and inequality. Greens councillor Cathy Oke slammed the Lord Mayor’s decision to send in the cops, telling Crikey she was totally unaware of any looming action.

“I certainly didn’t endorse this action or decision to bring in riot police and fences to remove peaceful protesters,” she told Crikey. “The only discussion that I’ve ever about this was earlier on the week. It is incredibly unfortunate because I thought that Council was dealing with it with appropriate manner and then you see riot police in there. It’s sad, it’s really sad that Melbourne and the City Square looks as it does in the international media and on Twitter.”

At an impromptu doorstop this morning, Inspector Mick Beattie denied that police were preparing to arrest activists, citing a good spirit of cooperation across the six days of occupation.

“These people are going to have to leave. Our primary objective at this time is to avoid confrontation. We’re prepared to be very patient. We have enough resources to reclaim the land for the City of Melbourne,” Beattie said.

“We don’t really want to arrest people…We just want to patiently work through it and hopefully the wind will come out of their sails in due course.”

But other police disagreed. “It can only end in tears,” said an anointed police liaison officer, wearing a Jeep-branded hoodie.

(Undercover police were swarming over the square covertly filming the protesters in unconvincing “casual” attire — the main giveaway being loose-fit jeans that chafed with the skinny black strides favoured by actual activists).

Click here to view Crikey’s Occupy Melbourne photo gallery

One protester, Nicola Paris, said she had been arrested for taking pictures of police who — in an echo of the Melbourne S11 convergence — had apparently removed their name tags, a claim denied by Beattie.

Another protester David Schoeffe, said he was planning to stay put regardless. “Practically speaking it’s going to be awhile before I get hungry so I’ll be here until I get arrested,” he said.

“Amongst others, I don’t believe that just Robert Doyle could have orchestrated this.

While relations between the council and police and the protesters had so far generally been cordial and constructive, the rare alliance between Doyle and his bitter Liberal factional enemy appears to have born fruit.

Another semi-official spokesperson for the group, one-time Greens candidate Nick Carson, summed it up best as the riot squad bore down: “four million people around the world are doing this and it’s not going away.”

Above photographs taken by Sexenheimer.

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163 comments

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163 thoughts on “Doyle breaks up the Occupy Melbourne party in the city square

  1. Jimmy

    Liz45 – “At a recent evening out for indigenous people, perfectly fine, no hint of even a protest, the place was taken up with police.” I went ot a game of footy at the MCG not one hint of violence and there were police everywhere what a disgrace!!

    “It was the police who created the violence – and they did it deliberately!” It was the protestors who desptie saying otherwise refused to leave when asked- and they did it deliberately!

  2. Liz45

    Just one comment re the ‘difference’ between the peoples’ right to protest and the welcome to the President of Sri Lanka. That sums up the attitudes of our govts, corporate media and all who support the war mongering, wealth ‘making’ parasites allowed to do as they please in the world, while a couple of thousand peaceful protesters are turned into criminals.

    TTH and his ilk obviously have no issues with those type of people. The US goes around the world killing anybody and everybody they perceive to be a ‘threat’ while they mouth platitudes about democracy, the rule of law, freedom of speech blah blah! Sickening!

    If the police are going to just ‘move people on’ and/or arrest those who refuse, why do they spray capsicum spray into young peoples’ faces, and why remove their name tags and/or badges etc?

    The Victorian police have a reputation as just being one step ahead of the Queensland cops under Belke Petersen? NSW is catching up in the violent stakes?

    I went to a peaceful rally in Sydney last year to support aboriginal people in the NT re being paid like the non-aboriginal people standing next to them. There were many police with their vehicles, and even a riot vehicle – totally unnecessary and over the top? There were people representing Unions, The Greens etc who made speeches of support but no hint of any trouble.

    At a recent evening out for indigenous people, perfectly fine, no hint of even a protest, the place was taken up with police. These are not isolated incidences!

    I went to a rally last year, held at the Sydney Town Hall, which was packed out – standing room only. The rally was to support the Equal Pay case. After the rally we walked to the offices of the Employers First Offices, accompanied by police on horses – totally unnecessary – again.Most of the people protesting were women, as they make up the majority of workers severely underpaid by the injustice and inequality of wage policies? There were banners, whistles, people wearing T shirts, but not a hint of disharmony or ‘anarchy’? I was angry at the police presence! Unnecessary, over the top and deliberately intimidating! There was in excess of 3,000 people – not one hint of a problem!

    There were workers at the rally in Melbourne. There were senior representatives from several Unions. It was the police who created the violence – and they did it deliberately!

    I’ve read articles where those against the Rally in Melbourne canvassed/harassed business people hoping to get them to angrily oppose the protesters? Some business people said that their comments were misrepresented/misquoted? Fancy that?

    MSM aren’t going to support these protesters as they’re a glaringly obvious part of the 1%? They support the wars, the racism, the ageism, sexism and the injustices too many are suffering, because they benefit from the whole stinking set up?

  3. Jimmy

    “I didn’t say we were at the point America is at now, I said it was headed in that direction.” – By the time that every dollar is spent and every check is cashed, the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics estimates the cost of the Nov. 2 mid term elections will be more than $3.7 billion.

    That’s $3.7b every 2 years without allowing for the cost of the presidential pirmaries and subsequent election, we are a lon long way behind.

    The other major difference is once the President is elected he get’s to appoint his mates to jobs like Secretary of State, Secretary of Treasury etc.

  4. Jimmy

    Dr Smithy – “You mean the lack of support generated by propaganda from corporate-controlled media sources?” Again look at the cigarette packaging, same propaganda, different result. As I said the ability to inform yourself is there, the govt even ran ad’s to make it more easily assessable.

    “That doesn’t make it wrong.” Assuming the 99% you supposedly represent is ignorant and uninformed because they don’t actually support what you want them to is very dangerous.

    “The confrontational, divisive and shrill tone taken by politics in Australia over the last decade is absolutely moving towards the American model.” And what have the electorate done inAustralia in response to that tone, moved to the greens and independents. Australians have a third option, Americans do not.

    “I didn’t say we were at the point America is at now, I said it was headed in that direction. How did campaigning funding look 30-odd years ago?” Where is the evidence for this? The two examples I have given weren’t even for the equivalent of a federal seat. In the 2010 election both major parties got about $20m in taxpayer money for the campaign which reduces the need for massive donations plus the donations are to a party, in the US donations go to a person, and a person who isn’t bound to vote along party lines, very different situation.

    “Which works both ways. Why should the protesters be kicked out for someone else?” True and they were given 6 days, more than enough time to make their point. They got touse the public space (under the pre text that they would move one when asked), now it is someone else’s turn.

  5. drsmithy

    No I am not, I am pointing out that the cause of Rudd’s downfall was terrible poll’s, these polls weren’t caused by corporations (as you suggested) they were caused because a large proportion of the supposed 99% didn’t support him.

    You mean the lack of support generated by propaganda from corporate-controlled media sources ?

    So they are complaining that the 99% they supposedly represent aren’t informed! In other words, if the masses weren’t so ignorant they would support us which a condescending to say the least.

    That doesn’t make it wrong.

    Exactly, which is evidence that we are not moving towards an American system we in fact are moving the other way.

    The confrontational, divisive and shrill tone taken by politics in Australia over the last decade is absolutely moving towards the American model.

    Finally the big difference between the US and Australia is this , New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg spent $102 million of his own fortune in his last election campaign, Hilalry Clinton spent $212m to lose the chance to even run for President. The federal election here was just a fraction of these costs and largely funded by the taxpayer.

    I didn’t say we were at the point America is at now, I said it was headed in that direction. How did campaigning funding look 30-odd years ago ?

    But as I have asked SBH- when a public space should be availabel to all of the public why should one group be allowed to occupy it at the expense of others – shouldn’t we all have the same access?

    Which works both ways. Why should the protesters be kicked out for someone else ?

  6. Archer

    Reuben
    Posted Wednesday, 26 October 2011 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    @Archer

    “dreadlocked” – And just to help you along, this the only word in the whole of Reubens post which correlates to anything he accuses me of.

    Pardon?

    Don’t worry about Reuben, it wasn’t meant for you. It was poorly worded.

    Archer

  7. Archer

    Hello Reuben,

    Reuben Posted Monday, 24 October 2011 at 1:57 pm

    “For those who struggle to follow the intricate subtleties of TTH’s well-reasoned, articulate and erudite oratorial skills I thought I’d provide a brief summary:”

    Alexander Berkman Posted Tuesday, 25 October 2011 at 1:10 pm

    “@ Reuben- great summary that works well for TTH, Archer, Jimmy and co.”

    “Dreadlocked” is the only word I have used in any of my contributions which correlates to anything in your summary post.

    This was to correct Alexander, not yourself. I know it’s petty, but it has come to this, and this is where it ends.

    Thanks, Archer

  8. Reuben

    @Archer

    “dreadlocked” – And just to help you along, this the only word in the whole of Reubens post which correlates to anything he accuses me of.

    Pardon?

  9. LJG..............

    I’m just wondering if any of you guys and gals have jobs to go to now … you’ve been at this for days now…

  10. Jimmy

    “‘this means’ is a non-sequitir. Laws aren’t rights.” And you want to be portrayed other than recalcitrant!!

    I know laws aren’t rights, I didn’t say they were. I said that as everybody would have the same right to use the public space we need some mechanism to ensure that public spaces are used to ensure the maximum benefit for the maximum amount of the public. In other words laws relating to their use.

    If you find my statement to lack logic you could espouse your theory on how competing but equal “rights” should be accomodated as I have been asking.

    If you spent less time trying to be smug and superior this discussion could advance at amuch better rate.

  11. SBH

    ‘this means’ is a non-sequitir. Laws aren’t rights.

  12. Jimmy

    “So would you mind stop portraying me as recalcitrant or unable to make a sound case please?” When you start making a sound case I will start portaying you differently.

    I understand your point that we should have a right to use public spaces however we like becasue they are public BUT as I have stated this would mean EVERYBODY would have the same right, not just those who wish to protest about a certain point. This means that we need to have some constraints around how public spaces are used to ensure the maximum benefit for the maximum amount of the public, these constraints take the form of laws.

    This point is actually at the core of the argument you are trying to make rather than irrelevant to it.

  13. SBH

    Jimmy, you keep saying you’ve asked me a question, like I have some obligation to defend my position and my failure to answer your question indicates some deficiency in my argument.

    My comments don’t relate to the fairly puisne point you keep raising and I have no intention of engaging with you on a heirachy of rights argument nor dealing with the somewhat childish examples you keep advancing. You’ve failed to grasp (or if you’ve grasped it, failed to deal with) the issue I’ve raised and keep arguing a point that I don’t find relevant to the point I’m making. So would you mind stop portraying me as recalcitrant or unable to make a sound case please?

  14. Jimmy

    “If you can’t find an empty spot at the beach to put down your towel, is it time to call the police?” I might also call the police if a group started living on the beach preventing any other’s from using it indefinitely.

  15. Jimmy

    Dr Smithy – “We do all have the same access, but two people can’t be in the same place at the same time.” So the right to protest comes down to first in best dressed? And scheduled public events which have been organised months in advance have to take a back seat to a protest?

    “If you can’t find an empty spot at the beach to put down your towel, is it time to call the police?” No but if had arranged for an event to be held at a venue and others prevented me from holding that event I might.

  16. drsmithy

    But as I have asked SBH- when a public space should be availabel to all of the public why should one group be allowed to occupy it at the expense of others – shouldn’t we all have the same access?

    We do all have the same access, but two people can’t be in the same place at the same time.

    If you can’t find an empty spot at the beach to put down your towel, is it time to call the police ?

  17. Jimmy

    Dr Smithy – “In short, these people should have been allowed to continue occupying _public_ space – much like they have been in other locations – because that’s the point of _public_ space.”
    But as I have asked SBH- when a public space should be availabel to all of the public why should one group be allowed to occupy it at the expense of others – shouldn’t we all have the same access?

  18. Jimmy

    SBH – “All right Jimmy, here’s what I think, the right to protest outweighs the right to drink coffee. Happy now?” In a word No. My point goes further than drinking coffee, what if the tea party wanted to hold a rally at the square at the same time these protestors were “occupying it” which protestor rights are greater,or what if an awards ceremony was to be held for young people who had contributed greatly to the community (as was the case), why should that be less than their right to protest?

    Dr Smithy – “Polls aren’t elections. You are conflating them. Again.” No I am not, I am pointing out that the cause of Rudd’s downfall was terrible poll’s, these polls weren’t caused by corporations (as you suggested) they were caused because a large proportion of the supposed 99% didn’t support him.

    “Somehow I don’t think the people protesting are complaining because they think they’re not informed.” No they aren’t, you said they were “complaining about more than just what happens at the ballot box. The massive influence wielded on the mainstream media (and by extension most aspects of public opinion)” So they are complaining that the 99% they supposedly represent aren’t informed! In other words, if the masses weren’t so ignorant they would support us which a condescending to say the least.

    “The rise of the Greens is a recent phenomenon, and has been largely at the expense of the other major party” Exactly, which is evidence that we are not moving towards an American system we in fact are moving the other way.

    Finally the big difference between the US and Australia is this , New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg spent $102 million of his own fortune in his last election campaign, Hilalry Clinton spent $212m to lose the chance to even run for President. The federal election here was just a fraction of these costs and largely funded by the taxpayer.

  19. LisaCrago

    ps. there is a big difference bettween a BLOCKADE or OCCUPATION and a peacefull protest. In the past, I have been involved in all three.
    The first two are almost guarenteed to result in a conflict situation and criminal charges.
    The latter is only peacefull when both sides cooperate.

    To all of you moaning that you have no rights to protest you should have a look around the world at those people who REALLY have no right to free assembly or protest.
    Or if you grew up in QLD in the 1970’s-80’s you would remember when it was illegal for five or more people to walk down the street together.

    Right now we have plenty of freedom to peacefully protest in Australia.
    I know I have in the past and will again in the future. And I will not damage any cause by forcing conflict that will result in hurting others, or their horses or myself.

  20. LisaCrago

    I will gladly read a quality paper like The Australian with intelligent journos like Paul Kelly. It offers balance in news and opinions from highly educated people.

    While you all rant about the ‘evil’ of such a paper many of you gladly sell your personal information, for nothing, to be used by the very evil corps that you seek to distroy, simply by useing your face books.

    Hey New C ‘Threw it on the ground’ vid just totally cracked me up, but can’t see it in the comments now. Deleted?

  21. Alexander Berkman

    @ (jeffrey) Archer

    “Have you ever been put in an unfortunate position of having to respond?”

    to you and others of your ilk, sadly far too many times….

    “I didn’t write “kick a bit of arse”, I wrote “Some people need their arses kicked”.

    nice distinction there eh – I’ve seen enough people having “their arses kicked” by cops for crimes such as trying to stop the closure of a primary school (richmond primary), at a ‘fair’ for death merchants (Aidex ’91), etc etc -the list is huge and long and it seems your knowledge of the history of the police force as a tool for state repression and corporate protection is akin to an ostrich with it’s head in the sand..

    “We’ll know more about this in the next few weeks however, what part of “Move on” didn’t the protesters understand? I just watched quite a few of the youtubes available, it seems to me that the ones who moved on were untouched or ushered away. The ones who refused were manhandled and dragged.”

    Watching quite a few eh, I guess you must really get off on seeing those ‘lefty’ types getting “their arses kicked”….

    Yes, and I’d say your hands do go purple, but then I’ve never been in a position where I’ve been handcuffed. Nor am I dumb enough to cable tie myself to a human chain or cyclone fence.

    No I’d say you don’t really stand for much except the staus quo, and I ain’t talking about the band…

    “I am stuck with a carbon tax I didn’t vote for.”

    the cards are on the table jeffrey – anti anti anti anything that attempts to make this world a better place eh..

    how about you stick to the pages of the australian where you can drool over janet’s pieces or pump your fist in the air over at the herald sun whilst reading the bolter…

    au revoir mon petit chou-fleur

  22. drsmithy

    We’ll know more about this in the next few weeks however, what part of “Move on” didn’t the protesters understand? I just watched quite a few of the youtubes available, it seems to me that the ones who moved on were untouched or ushered away. The ones who refused were manhandled and dragged.

    Ah. So if they ask you to move on and you refuse, assault is justified ?

    “last time I looked, we the people had a right to protest”

    Yes you do, but I don’t believe you have the right to set camp in the CBD.

    Can you explain the distinction for us ?

  23. SBH

    All right Jimmy, here’s what I think, the right to protest outweighs the right to drink coffee. Happy now?

  24. Archer

    @Alexander Berkman

    Have you ever been put in an unfortunate position of having to respond?

    I’ve discussed many topics with contributors here, it may become heated but we keep it civil. You seem to be incapable of that, thus you do your cause no favours.

    I didn’t write “kick a bit of arse”, I wrote “Some people need their arses kicked”.

    Uniformed representatives of the corporations? I’ll leave that one for you.

    “Tough guy cops draggin out much smaller people by their hair and smashing their heads into the concrete.”

    We’ll know more about this in the next few weeks however, what part of “Move on” didn’t the protesters understand? I just watched quite a few of the youtubes available, it seems to me that the ones who moved on were untouched or ushered away. The ones who refused were manhandled and dragged.

    “Fyi, Cable ties are also used by cops to handcuff people and I can tell you they like to see your hands go purple.”

    Yes, and I’d say your hands do go purple, but then I’ve never been in a position where I’ve been handcuffed. Nor am I dumb enough to cable tie myself to a human chain or cyclone fence.

    “last time I looked, we the people had a right to protest”

    Yes you do, but I don’t believe you have the right to set camp in the CBD.

    “to demand change from our ‘elected officials’ and that is what the Occupy protests are about.”

    I am stuck with a carbon tax I didn’t vote for. You are probably happy we’ll have one. My demand for change is my vote, so is yours.

    “dreadlocked” – And just to help you along, this the only word in the whole of Reubens post which correlates to anything he accuses me of.

  25. drsmithy

    No they aren’t elections but do you think that Rudd would of been rolled if his Poll numbers didn’t tank? Do you think Rudd would of been rolled if the 99% had of been behind the RSPT? It wasn’t that the corporations made the call, the 99% did.

    And what happened when we did go to an election, the 99% got to have their say and democracy worked?

    Polls aren’t elections. You are conflating them. Again.

    It’s not hard to inform yourself, watch lateline or 7.30, read the herald sun during the week and the Age on Sunday, read a crikey article once in a while, think for yourself. If you make no effort to inform yourself you can’t complain when you are deceived.

    Somehow I don’t think the people protesting are complaining because they think they’re not informed.

    Where is the evidence of this? Our wealth distribution is going the other way to America? We have a parliament where we have a legitimate third party, not so in America. We have been able to implement a carbon tax, paid parental leave and we will have a MRRT. We are making moves towards disability insurance, we have the PBS and Medicare. None of these things would be remotely possible in the US but are in grained here.

    The rise of the Greens is a recent phenomenon, and has been largely at the expense of the other major party. What we have is a two-party system where both parties are coalitions.

    Medicare suffered mightily at the hands of previous Liberal Governments, as did many other publicly-funded organisations.

    Politics is becoming ever more partisan and content-free, driven largely from the Right, just as it did in America.

    Common media sources are becoming more opinionated and less informative, again mirroring the US experience.

  26. Jimmy

    SBH – At what point did you answer any of the questions I put to you? I realise you are clinging to the point that we should have a right to a public space but you have never answered how you weigh up which member of the publics right to that space wins? These protestors wanted to “occupy” the square why should they be given the right to inhabit that space at the expense of every other user who would have the similar right?

    “In a debate about whether we should continue to drive cars your contribution was ‘I like holdens’” Yours appears to have been “Do Cars actually exist?”

  27. Jimmy

    “Polls aren’t elections. Do not use them interchangeably.” No they aren’t elections but do you think that Rudd would of been rolled if his Poll numbers didn’t tank? Do you think Rudd would of been rolled if the 99% had of been behind the RSPT? It wasn’t that the corporations made the call, the 99% did.
    And what happened when we did go to an election, the 99% got to have their say and democracy worked?
    “You can call it stupidity if you want. Personally I draw distinctions between stupidity, ignorance and deception.” It’s not hard to inform yourself, watch lateline or 7.30, read the herald sun during the week and the Age on Sunday, read a crikey article once in a while, think for yourself. If you make no effort to inform yourself you can’t complain when you are deceived.

    “Fundamentally, there are a bunch of people who are concerned about the direction Australia is going (basically turning into a mini-America) and want to stop it.” Where is the evidence of this? Our wealth distribution is going the other way to America? We have a parliament where we have a legitimate third party, not so in America. We have been able to implement a carbon tax, paid parental leave and we will have a MRRT. We are making moves towards disability insurance, we have the PBS and Medicare. None of these things would be remotely possible in the US but are in grained here.

    And this “bunch of people” a few hundred in each of Melb and Sydney? I suppose that classifies as a bunch.

  28. SBH

    Jimmy, I gave you answers but you either didn’t like them or didn’t have the intellectual capacity to understand the debate.

    In a debate about whether we should continue to drive cars your contribution was ‘I like holdens’.

  29. drsmithy

    They deserted the idea of an RSPT and deserted kevin Rudd, the polls at the time reflected it. If they had of supported the idea like they did with the plain packaging of cigarette’s the lobbyist’s would of lost.

    Polls aren’t elections. Do not use them interchangeably.

    So the protest is because people are to stupid to think for themselves?

    One aspect of the protests is that the common sources of information used by the public are tightly controlled by a small number of people, who have a vested interest in obfuscation and balkanisation.

    You can call it stupidity if you want. Personally I draw distinctions between stupidity, ignorance and deception.

    Fundamentally, there are a bunch of people who are concerned about the direction Australia is going (basically turning into a mini-America) and want to stop it.

  30. Jimmy

    NO answers from you either Alexander?

  31. Jimmy

    “How do you figure “the 99%” had any influence over knocking off Rudd and gutting the RSPT ?” They deserted the idea of an RSPT and deserted kevin Rudd, the polls at the time reflected it. If they had of supported the idea like they did with the plain packaging of cigarette’s the lobbyist’s would of lost.

    “I think they’re complaining about more than just what happens at the ballot box. The massive influence wielded on the mainstream media (and by extension most aspects of public opinion) by a handful of power brokers, for example.” So the protest is because people are to stupid to think for themselves?

    What happened at the ballot box demonstrates that lobbyists and corporations can push as hard as they want but it is the 99% that have the power and it was the 99% who decided that we needed a third party to control the senate and it was the 99% who produced a hung parliament.

    “Once again, the fact Australia is not as bad as America, is not an argument that there are no problems here.” True but where is the argument that there is?

    And if the protestors protested in favour of the RSPT there voices may well have been heard, but you can’t complain that you weren’t heard when you didn’t speak up!

  32. Alexander Berkman

    @Archer -you truly are a twat. So, in your tiny mind it’s quite fine for the uniformed representatives of the state & corporations to “kick a bit of arse”, be it young students, the elderly pacifists or the dreadlocked punks. Tough guy cops draggin out much smaller people by their hair and smashing their heads into the concrete. Fyi, Cable ties are also used by cops to handcuff people and I can tell you they like to see your hands go purple. So save the holier than thou attitude, last time I looked, we the people had a right to protest , to demand change from our ‘elected officials’ and that is what the Occupy protests are about.

  33. drsmithy

    I am not saying it isn’t, what I am saying is that THIS protest which is claiming the 99% don’t have a voice is incorrect, it was the 99% that did for Rudd and the RSPT not the lobbyists, it was the 99% who took their opportunity at the ballot box and gave the greens and independents more power.

    How do you figure “the 99%” had any influence over knocking off Rudd and gutting the RSPT ?

    The “Occupy” protestors claim there is no democracy, the facts don’t back that up.

    I think they’re complaining about more than just what happens at the ballot box. The massive influence wielded on the mainstream media (and by extension most aspects of public opinion) by a handful of power brokers, for example.

    True but corporations don’t vote and unlike America don’t have the influence over every candidate due to massive and largely hidden donations to multi million dollar campaign funds, the 99% votes and the results from the last election show how influential they are.

    Once again, the fact Australia is not as bad as America, is not an argument that there are no problems here.

  34. Jimmy

    “Protest is part of the democratic process. It’s the closest thing normal people can get to lobbying and media saturation.” True but corporations don’t vote and unlike America don’t have the influence over every candidate due to massive and largely hidden donations to multi million dollar campaign funds, the 99% votes and the results from the last election show how influential they are.

  35. Jimmy

    “Protest is part of the democratic process. It’s the closest thing normal people can get to lobbying and media saturation.” I am not saying it isn’t, what I am saying is that THIS protest which is claiming the 99% don’t have a voice is incorrect, it was the 99% that did for Rudd and the RSPT not the lobbyists, it was the 99% who took their opportunity at the ballot box and gave the greens and independents more power.

    The “Occupy” protestors claim there is no democracy, the facts don’t back that up.

  36. Archer

    @Alexander Berkman

    If that’s your true name, your parents have a great sense of humor.

    If you chose the moniker, please, spare me.

    And to answer your question I’ve experienced more brutality in a short training session at the dojo.

    What is it that lawyers say? Don’t insult people on a blog and ask questions about their life unless you know the answers.

    Now, I really can’t be bothered with this subject any more, it’s going around in circles and it’s getting ugly.

  37. drsmithy

    Corporate Australia couldn’t have done any of this without the “99%”, Rudd wouldn’t have gone and the Mining tax wouldn’t have been gutted if everyday Australians hadn’t of believed them and Abbott.

    And…?

    And if you look at the response to these actions at the ballot box, more power to the greens, more power to independents which basically prevents a similar thing happening in this term. No need for a protest, the democratic prosess shone through.

    Protest is part of the democratic process. It’s the closest thing normal people can get to lobbying and media saturation.

    With the MRRT and the first crack at the carbon tax (which lead to Rudd’s downfall) it wasn’t the lobbying it was the 99% who were stupid enough to support the lobbyists.

    And…?

  38. Jimmy

    “Of the top of my head, corporate influences on Government in Australia have managed to fell a Prime Minister, gut a resources tax, and kept a real estate bubble inflated for a decade.”

    Further to that point let’s look at cigarette packaging, the tabacco companies have been lobbying hard, advertising hard and even taking legal action but the govt still passed the legislation not because the industry didn’t lobby hard enough but because the “99%” didn’t fall for it. With the MRRT and the first crack at the carbon tax (which lead to Rudd’s downfall) it wasn’t the lobbying it was the 99% who were stupid enough to support the lobbyists.

  39. Jimmy

    Dr Smithy -Good to see you are back, no mention of the figures I provided again on your request?

    “Of the top of my head, corporate influences on Government in Australia have managed to fell a Prime Minister, gut a resources tax, and kept a real estate bubble inflated for a decade.”

    Corporate Australia couldn’t have done any of this without the “99%”, Rudd wouldn’t have gone and the Mining tax wouldn’t have been gutted if everyday Australians hadn’t of believed them and Abbott. And if you look at the response to these actions at the ballot box, more power to the greens, more power to independents which basically prevents a similar thing happening in this term. No need for a protest, the democratic prosess shone through.

  40. New Cassandra

    This song suits the Occupy protesters perfectly…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYL5H46QnQ

  41. drsmithy

    Alexander – If I am such a numbskull maybe you could answer the questions I have been posing to SBH, or maybe you could advise what the point of this protest actually is given the distribution of wealth and lack of democracy arguments that have been put up don’t actually stand up to fact and reasoning in Australia.

    Of the top of my head, corporate influences on Government in Australia have managed to fell a Prime Minister, gut a resources tax, and kept a real estate bubble inflated for a decade.

    I’d say there’s plenty of work to be done here. That’s it’s not as bad as America is irrelevant. That the same sort of tactics are being used by the monied interests *is*.

  42. Jimmy

    Alexander – If I am such a numbskull maybe you could answer the questions I have been posing to SBH, or maybe you could advise what the point of this protest actually is given the distribution of wealth and lack of democracy arguments that have been put up don’t actually stand up to fact and reasoning in Australia.

  43. Jimmy

    SBH- I know what your point is and I assume you are a supporter of a bill of rights. YOu want the right to protest, you want the right for the public to be able to use public space for whatevere means they want but even if these rights existed my point would still stand, how do you weigh up one groups right against another?

    I have tried repeatedly to put some real world practice around your ideals, ie how long should the protest have been allowed to impinge others “rights”, which laws are bendable in the name of protest and which aren’t and you are unwilling or unable to answer. Maybe you could answer this –

    I heard someone on theradio over the weekend complaining that his 15 year old daughter had been arrested unfairly by the police when all she was doing was writing on a police car, is this a legitimate form of protest or damaging public property?

    Also if this was a peaceful protest why were their 8 police cars damaged?

  44. Alexander Berkman

    @ Reuben- great summary that works well for TTH, Archer, Jimmy and co. I wonder what sort of work these numbskulls do given their propensity for bulk, time consuming reactionary comments. As for Archer – Jeffrey I presume – brutality? ever been on the receiving end? Sorry I forgot these things, the only brutality you ever experience is when you need to unclog your colon after all those hours sitting on your ahrse. foadyfdh

  45. drsmithy

    If I was to burn down your house in a protest about capital greed should I be allowed because I am exercising my right to protest?

    There is a vast gulf of difference between destruction of property and occupying public space.

    In short, these people should have been allowed to continue occupying _public_ space – much like they have been in other locations – because that’s the point of _public_ space.

    If they were occupying _private_ space, then the owners/leaseholders of said _private_ space are well within their rights to call the police.

    This is an appropriate reminder of how potentially serious the consequences of attitudes like yours can be.

  46. Archer

    Good afternoon SBH

    What’s your point Archer, I oppose the use of violence, especially by the state to silence dissent. What’s Chris Tallis’ comment got to do with that?

    Brutality? don’t think so.
    Brutal: adjective…..savagely violent : a brutal murder.

    It seems Chris has some experience, marbles, acetone etc. Just saying.
    Reminds me of the G20 riots when the protestors cried police brutality.

  47. SBH

    and in the process entirely missing the point – nuff said move on

  48. Jimmy

    SBH – No I am trying to get you to define where the line is, where one person’s “right” is greater than another’s, which law is allowed to be broken and which isn’t.

  49. SBH

    Jimmy, you’re being deliberately obtuse. To compare an act of criminal arson’ the consequenses of which include the entire destruction of my major asset and almost everything I own, injury and death, with a peaceful protest is a facile extrapolation worthy of Truthie.

    just by the by, you don’t have a right to earn a living or enjoy a community space either.

    and it’s ‘affected’

  50. Jimmy

    SBH – But where does the right to protest stop and the right to earn a living or enjoy a community space start, why does their right to protest outweigh the rights of other people?

    If I was to burn down your house in a protest about capital greed should I be allowed because I am exercising my right to protest?

    All sorts of community groups and organisations hold protests every day about a variety of things unimpeded, the difference here is that this protest took away other peoples rights and from what I can discern from the confused reasoning for the protest, the people who’s reights were being effected were the exact people this protest was supposed to be representing.

  51. SBH

    Jimmy, I’ve patiently explained several times my concern is about rights. You’ve hit the nail on the head when you say ‘breached the law’. Firstly can I congratulate you on your elevation to the bench as the decision that a law has been breached is a judicial function and as far as I can tell, yet to be exercised in this case, secondly that’s my whole point. There is no right to protest. Protests are allowed by the relevant government.

    Dissent should be a basic and fundamental ability of free citizens in a free country. Take the cause dearest to your heart, the most grievous wrong that you can think of, something that cries out for redress. You decide to protest about it only to find that because of whatever reason the government decides, you’re not allowed to protest – they pack you up and move you on. They don’t even need to tell you why you’ve been moved on. Australia has some of the most oppresive move on laws in the western world and that worries me and should worry you.

    When a government can shut down dissent at whim the you (that’s you personally Jimmy) don’t have the right to protest.

  52. Jimmy

    SBH – So despite the fact these protestors were allowed to breach the law for 6 days in order to make a point which doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation you still find their right to protest has been denied?
    And their right to protest is greater than the right of the small business people to earn a living or the right of the everyday citizen to use the city square?

    As I said these people were able to protest after they were evicted, and they will protest again in the near future.

    No matter how long this protest went it was always going to end the same way

  53. SBH

    Jimmy, I thought I had answered but if not let me clarify. It’s not the rightness of the cause or the length of time, its the issue of the general lack of rights in Australia and the ability of authorities to stop any protest about anything at anytime they choose. My objection to Archer and others was the exhortation to violence. If you read my posts you’ll see my veiw of the ‘brutality’. I didn’t reply earlier because I was busy.

    What’s your point Archer, I oppose the use of violence, especially by the state to silence dissent. What’s Chris Tallis’ comment got to do with that?

  54. LisaCrago

    Well GEOMAC the real way to protest against CEO $ is to join the board and fight it as I don’t think they will pay too much attention to you while you are screaming in the streets.

    or

    …maybe you should go lead a protest against bushfires then.

    The problem of arguing with idiots is that they bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

    I see this comments section has desended into nasty rants and it is a good advert for moderating comments on this rag.

  55. Archer

    SBH

    Action:- (Chris Tallis Friday, 21 October 2011 at 3:15 pm)

    Acetone works a treat on perspex and horses don’t like to tread on marbles.
    Just sayin.

    Reaction:- I let you decide.

    @Chris Tallis
    “And I read about a protester being trampled by a police horse.
    People are animals of a sort Jimmy and from your point of view you could easily be accused of condoning animal violence.”

    Who’s the evolved one Chris? Who do you think would have the good sense and in this case free will to get out of the way of a threat. A horse being given instructions by a rider or a person with the ability to walk away.

  56. Jimmy

    SBH- Still no word from you or others on exactly how long you believe these people should of been allowed to stay.

    Also there has been very little if any comment on the fact that what these people were actually protesting has little relevance to Australian society.

    They claim a lack of wealth distribution, a real problem in the US but figures show it is not as much of a pronlem here and it is getting less so.

    They claim a lack of democracy, again a problem in the US where campaigns cost millions and politicians at every level are indebted to the corporations who fund them but again less so here. Plus the composition of the current federal parliament clearly demonstrates the minority has a significant voice.

  57. SBH

    Archer, you aligned yourself with the violence exhorted by TTH, good for you. Thanks for the compendium Reuben.

  58. Reuben

    For those who struggle to follow the intricate subtleties of TTH’s well-reasoned, articulate and erudite oratorial skills I thought I’d provide a brief summary:

    Crack some skulls. Dole bludging louts. Sucking the public tit. Scum, the lot of them. Dole bludging anarchists. Hard working taxpaying Australians. Socialist dictatorship. Sit on the f’ing dole all day. These bludgers. Land Rights for Gay Whales. Dole bludging socialists. These scumbags. Scumbags getting in the way. These socialists. Lefties. ENTIRELY the socialists fault. Communal drinking fountain AND toilet. Lefties don’t follow laws, rules or orders. These bludgers haven’t worked a hard day in their life and are mostly dole bludgers living off the hard work of others. The other 99% have jobs, lives and don’t like these socialist scumbags choking up the city with their stink. Loud mouth, smelly, dreadlocked, dole bludging rabble. I work hard for a living. Minority rabble trying to wreck other peoples lives. These socialists. Dole raise. A hard days work. It’ll be a socialist wonderland of goodness. The socialists. The socialists. The socialists. Lefties. Lefties. These socialists. The socialists. These socialists. Prefessional protestors. Leftie rallys. The left. The left are a joke.

    I hope this helps.

  59. Archer

    SBH

    I didn’t say crack heads, I said kick arses. It’s simple, it seems the organizer had discussions with police and council to move after 6 days. They didn’t.

    Cable ties: cable ties are used by electricians to fasten electrical cable to structural members.

    Cable ties hurt. If you are stupid enough to cable tie yourselves together you have only yourselves to blame for the injuries sustained. Those injuries would not have occurred had those cable ties not been used.

  60. Jimmy

    SBH – “a protest was broken up because you, Archer, and I, have no right to protest about anything. ” That clearly isn’t true, they protested for 6 days, they protested again over the weekend in a different form, I dare say they will protest again in other ways in the coming weeks and days. What they don’t have is a right to permanently live and take over the city square, denying other citizens their right of use and impacting small business people who are also part of the 99%.

    You still haven’t, nor has anybody else told me exactly how long these people should of been allowed to stay?

    “crack heads, kick arses, deserve the injury. So that’s the way you’d like dissent dealt with in this democracy Archer?” Apparently 1 protestor went to hospital and 19 others reported “minor injury” (I would suggest very minor) 2 police were injured and 8 police cars damaged, hardly evidence of “police brutality” or completely innocent protestors.

  61. SBH

    crack heads, kick arses, deserve the injury. So that’s the way you’d like dissent dealt with in this democracy Archer?

    Jimmy – you didn’t say that I agree, but my point of 23 October 2011 at 1:22 pm remains.

  62. Archer

    botswana bob

    Some people need their arses kicked, they should grow up and realize for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. They were asked to leave. If you are stupid enough to cable tie yourselves together you deserve the injury that comes when a scuffle breaks out.

    I would like to see the businesses assemble a class action against the organizers of the event for loss of earnings and damages. Target student unions and political parties such as The Socialists Alternative.

    Fortunately, it seems the Christine Nixon days are over.

  63. Jimmy

    Dr Smithy – I seem to have satisfied your curiousity!

  64. Jimmy

    Dr Smithy – The figures I have already provided in earlier posts!

    “Further to my point this is much more of an issue in the US:

    According to the CIA World Fact Book, the U.S. is ranked as the 42nd most unequal country in the world, with a Gini Coefficient of 45.

    In contrast:
    – Tunisia is ranked the 62nd most unequal country, with a Gini Coefficient of 40.
    – Yemen is ranked 76th most unequal, with a Gini Coefficient of 37.7.
    – And Egypt is ranked as the 90th most unequal country, with a Gini Coefficient of around 34.4.

    Australia’s Gini index was 35.2 (1994) and 30.5 (2006)

    This link also has a map which shows the issue pretty clearly
    theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/map-us-ranks-near-bottom-on-income-inequality/245315/”

  65. drsmithy

    While wealth could always be more equally spread until you arrive at a communistic utopia the figures actually show wealth is reasonably well distributed in Australia and the wealth distribution is actually improving.

    Which figures ? I’m curious to see.

  66. Jimmy

    SBH – “So Jimmy, bankers will no longer make obscene profit because of six little days?” I didn’t say that, I asked, given that this issue will not be resolved to the protestors satisfaction any time soon if at all how long should they be allowed to “occupy” a space thousands of other people wish to use.

    Nici – “I think the unequal distribution of wealth in this country is worth protesting about” While wealth could always be more equally spread until you arrive at a communistic utopia the figures actually show wealth is reasonably well distributed in Australia and the wealth distribution is actually improving.

    Finally I saw quotes over the weekend saying we don’t have true democracy and yet we have a hung parilament with a greens member and 4 independents holding the balance of power in the lower house and a record number of greens senators holding the balance of power in the upper house. Hardly a refelction of a lack of voice for the “99%”

    To me this is yet another example of why this is a legitimate protest for America which doesn’t translate to Australia.

  67. geomac

    ” Poor people protesting against the rich is just so passé. ”
    My view is different in that the protest is about the big firms/banks and their overpaid staff not being accountable for the damage to various economies. The CEO who gets a handsome bonus for a job not well done. The companies too big in government opinion to let their mistakes feel the economic affects that would befall anyone else. Rio Tinto etc raking it in yet squealing like stuck pigs at the thought of raking in slightly less.
    Is that CEO providing better value than someone in the armed forces, the fire brigade or a police force ? In those lesser paid professions there are repercussions if there is a dereliction of duty or at least the means to address breaking rules or being reckless. Those same CEOs seem to spruik more regulation for average workers while demanding less regulation and tax for their companies. Witness the types who have recently called for an increase in the GST are also the ones who want company tax breaks.
    GEOMAC, I will be sure and ask the next group of australians on rotation to enjoy their “policing action “.
    While your at it ask CFA members to enjoy the approaching summer. Policing action , war or fighting fires , the term means little if death occurs. Unlike the CEOs those in various services take the consequences when events go wrong even if not at the forefront when signing up. I myself wouldn,t ask service people to enjoy a stressful situation but wish them well. I remember looking at the sky on black saturday and thinking as the afternoon sun was blotted out , how will they cope ?
    They meaning not only the CFA but anyone in the fires path.

  68. SBH

    And yes LisaCrago is perfectly correct, we are at war. We just don’t get told about it by the leaders of our liberal, egalitarian paradise.

  69. SBH

    Archer, as to the first bit, I don’t see you disagreeing with me. As to the second bit, I made the differentiation but debate in this country is so atrophied that if you draw one parallel you are taken to say the two sets of events are exactly the same.

    My point remains, in Melbourne, the center of art, culture and intellectualism in Australia, a country that sees itself as a modern, liberal, western democracy, a protest was broken up because you, Archer, and I, have no right to protest about anything. You can only protest at the indulgence of your leaders.

    That should worry you.

  70. LisaCrago

    GEOMAC, I will be sure and ask the next group of australians on rotation to enjoy their “policing action “. The ignorance of the average aussie with regards to the war never ceases to amaze me. Maybe if all these wall street protesters had family members being sent to fight in this war they would be more concerned with PEACE than WEALTH. But it seems that people only want to protest these days if something directly impacts them. ie; how many people in suits with jobs were involved in this protest. Or it is fashionable to do so…ie refugees. Well stop wars and we will go a long way to reduce reffo numbers. Stop This War in Ghan and our very own government will have more money in the coffers. The WAR in Ghan is breaking America’s piggy bank and hurting OUR ecconomy also. If you can’t see the connection then I am surprised you can even use a computer.
    So enjoy your protest.
    Poor people protesting against the rich is just so passé.

  71. Andrew Demase

    Remember this: The Filthy Rich and their fellow travellers and defenders will not tolerate any dissent. Gone are the days that you can protest in Australia.

    The Filthy Rich will never, ever relinquish power. You should watch a film which is hard to get but has been uploaded to youtube, watch it before it disappears again. “Twilight’s Last Gleaming” (1977) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD_zN3o-m3I

  72. Archer

    “The police weren’t keeping the peace and good order, they were tidying up an unsightly blemish. Like you Dotle was more worried about how they looked.”

    They were disrupting the public and businesses for no reason at all. Their protest had no meaning, no point. I guarantee if they all spoke with one voice on a unified issue the public would have had more sympathy.

    “we have no more rights to assembly and protest than the Tiananmen Square protesters.”

    Oh please, when I see tanks rolling down the street or people being taken away, never to be seen again, then I’ll consider ourselves to be living under a communist regime.

  73. SBH

    Exactly my point truthie, there is no such thing as public space in Australia, we have fewer rights to peaceful assembly than just about any other western democracy.

    Archer that’s not why they got moved on. It was because they were unsightly and would ruin the view of Melbourne that Doyle wished to present to the monarch. The police weren’t keeping the peace and good order, they were tidying up an unsightly blemish. Like you Dotle was more worried about how they looked.

    Whilst the brutality has been overstated the police and CoM actions show we have no more rights to assembly and protest than the Tiananmen Square protesters. A fine standard for 21st century Australia.

  74. botswana bob

    Isn’t it great to see all those comments that, in a democracy, protests that I don’t agree with should be suppressed. It does recall Churchill’s remark that the best argument against democracy was a conversation with the average voter.

    With a Liberal government led by Ted the Toorak Toff in, these events look like deja vu all over again. During the Kennett regime there were all sorts of butt kicking from the cops. Then, as now, such brought cheers from the far right ranting class. However once the court cases commenced the aforesaid butt kicking proved very expensive for taxpayers, who always taxpayers end up funding government excesses. I gather legal observers were there as the cops did the bidding of that high decibel attention seeker Robert Doyle, so, as Dr Who put it, time well tell what the size of the damage bill will be.

  75. Catherine Ryan

    I was arrested yesterday for doing no more than peacefully marching. I was alarmed at the violence treatment I saw being given to the people at Occupy Melbourne. The police reaction was excessive and frightening. Apparently peaceful demonstration is an arrestable offense.

    I wrote a blog post last night about my experience. http://iamtheblob.blogspot.com/2011/10/today-i-was-arrested-at-occupy.html

  76. Archer

    “Regardless of what you think of the protesters or their causes, the ability of the organs of the state to terminate a protest at will is a symptom of an immature democracy.”

    Again, the inability of the protesters to recognize that their actions had reached a point where they were being intrusive, pointless, destructive and detrimental to the daily activities of businesses and citizens, shows immaturity on their part.

  77. Archer

    They had their chance to put forward their grievances and make their voices heard. They got the publicity they desired. Their actions will accomplish absolutely nothing. If they want to change the world do it through a legitimate means by finding employment in a relevant field or becoming involved in politics. This isn’t Lybia, we are a fortunate people. We don’t need a grass roots revolution because we live in a wealthy western democracy. Australians are the hardest working people in the world and the majority enjoy an excellent quality of life. This 99% figure is rubbish. The people who have been left behind, the unemployed, elderly, disabled, those with mental issues do have a safety net, but I agree they should be looked at and increased dramatically.

    The protesters disrupted traffic, public transport and commuters. They used toilets and facilities reserved for businesses and caused attendances to local traders and cafes to drop dramatically. When asked to leave they ignored the request and joined themselves together with cable ties.

    They feel disenfranchised and without a voice. When a dreadlocked twenty year old with a nose ring, converse runners and anarchy’ T-shirt yells “I am the 99%, they have everything and I have nothing”, all credibility goes out the window.

    They have a voice, it’s called a vote. I have no sympathy for them.

    P.S. They’re lucky they’re not dealing with the German riot police. I watched how they dispersed a similar crowd when I was working in Europe.

  78. geomac

    At best we are in Afghanistan as a policing action but more realistically as our bit towards the USA alliance. Apparently some would prefer conscription to have Australia wake up to deaths in combat or policing . I would prefer that those that voluntarily join up knowing what that involves perform those actions. My reference to Bush and Howard was in the context of what a sham it is to call this a war. Too subtle it seems . I wont call you dumb in response because that is pointless. We disagree on definition and the remedy. My views on conscription remain the same and you have advanced nothing that would be likely to sway me otherwise.

  79. LisaCrago

    Australia is most definately at WAR.

    So your post is meaningless, hollow and without factual basis.

    If you read and understood my post ( which you do not) you would understand the concept that if Australian men HAD to go to this war then maybe there would be more voices and action to stop it.

    Maybe dumb people like you would wise up if you have to watch your family members and their friends go off to kill or be killed. Maybe then you would realise that we are at war and it should be stopped. That the whinging you go on about Vietnamn is happening right now but you choose to ignore it because it had something to do with Howard and Bush so we deserve it.

    War is the ultimate failure of politics and don’t talk to me about offspring and war. I live with the concept daily.

  80. geomac

    LISACRAGO

    We are not at war and why do you assume we are ? No declaration of war as in Menzies WW11 and none from Howard about Iraq or Afghanistan. Bush and likewise Howard didn,t ask citizens to make the supreme effort to fight a war but instead provided tax cuts to the better off. If as you claim we are at war its a claytons war and only foolish people swallow the claims of desktop warriors like Bush or Howard.
    How many of our civil rights or democratic liberties have been reduced because of this bogus war ? You want conscription back ? Well I guess you aren,t in the age bracket suitable for conscription are you ? You think conscription applies to all equally but it doesn,t. Bush cake walked through his by the charade of land based pilot service , no Nam for him. Uni education is another form of delay or avoidance from conscription. Howard didn,t even do the three month conscription that was in force back in the day. Hows that work out ? Whitlam served in the air force in WW11 while Bradman served in the USA as a ” diplomat “.
    You may think protesters go for fashionable causes but there is no way you can assume such a thing. People follow many causes but not all for the same reasons or support one and not another. Some don,t support by marching but donating or just sticking up for a cause at social function like a BBQ.
    Anyone who loudly supports conscription and by default conscripts going to battle is usually above the age to be conscripted and has a way of avoiding their offspring from having to do what their asking others to do.

  81. TheTruthHurts

    Hi SBH,

    Can I come arrange a camp-in on your front yard and block your passage out of your house for 6 days? I know you won’t mind, afterall we will be peaceful. Please don’t call the cops, we don’t want the situation to become “violent” and we’ll move when we god damn feel like it.

    Thanks

  82. SBH

    And as reports come in from around the world, which country used repressive police powers as a political tool to break up and disperse a peaceful protest? Yes, Melbourne, a city that fancies itself as the country’s cultural and intellectual heart.

    Perhaps my point was not made clearly enough before. some people say ‘six days was long enough’. In my view it’s not about how long the protest was allowed to go on but rather that it only went on because it was allowed. Doyle could have used the police after 6 minutes had he chosen.

    Regardless of what you think of the protesters or their causes, the ability of the organs of the state to terminate a protest at will is a symptom of an immature democracy.

  83. TheTruthHurts

    [“It seems TTH and his “the law is always right” attitude would have been right at home in 1930s Germany.”]

    The law isn’t always right. But in this case it was.

    A minority of trouble makers had setup camp in the middle of the city. A clear health and safety violation not to mention the fact they were getting in the publics way and wrecking small business owners from making a profit. To me and most Australians thats unacceptable. These people needed to be moved on.

    Now at 7am these socialists were told they would be given 2 hours to pack up and leave. Plenty of time for them to do this. At 9am they were still there, so the police arrived. Now to those saying the police were too heavy handed, the police did not move in until 12PM, so 3 hours later.

    So the socialists had been given 2 hours to pack up, and a further 3 hours to comply with the order and yet they still refused to move. Because the reality is and the left can keep lying about this… these socialists were NEVER going to leave peacefully. They were waiting exactly for this police action to happen. It’s what professional protestors like this mob live for and they get great joy getting dragged out by the scruff of their neck by the police and then playing victim. They love it and the police obliged.

    [“One wonders if he would be cheering the violent “moving on” of Carbon Tax protesters so enthusiastically.”]

    Have seen videos of the Anti-Breathing Tax rallys and no one there is violent unlike leftie rallys. Apparently the only thing the left could whine about was Ditch The Witch posters, boo hoo. Must have missed all those anti-howard rally’s with Howard the Coward, Bush’s Bitch and Arselicker. The left are a joke.

  84. LisaCrago

    geomac, if you feel like you do then why did you not protest last week at the tenth aniversary of the WAR in AFGHANISTAN?

    Oh that is right, no body did.

    Why were there not a million australian people protesting against this war that has lasted longer than Nam?

    I will tell you why, because we no longer have conscription it does not directly affect the youth of today. Also, the activists of today are too busy screaming about the weather and other erroneous fashionable causes that will lead nowhere such as this protest about bashing american banksters on wall street.

    I do not want to see one more single Australian service man sent to his death in Ghan. We are a country AT WAR and it seems the radical left don’t have this issue high up their list of activist priorities. Lets bring conscription and national service back and remind people of what is important in this world; PEACE.

  85. drsmithy

    It seems TTH and his “the law is always right” attitude would have been right at home in 1930s Germany.

    One wonders if he would be cheering the violent “moving on” of Carbon Tax protesters so enthusiastically. Or maybe if the police had arrested all the truckies trundling around Canberra causing a nuisance a few months back, and impounded their trucks.

  86. geomac

    A rich family can illegally build a swimming pool on public land and a year later its still there. The council and I presume the state know the pool is illegal and have taken steps to remedy the situation but as yet big money has prevailed. So peaceful protesters on public land need a riot squad for six days but a leaking pool illegally built remains while the legal process drags on. If the leaks create soil slippage down to the beach who is responsible ?
    If a local person on PAYE builds a cubby house and council objects you know that cubby won,t be there shortly after. Thats in part what those people are protesting against , one rule for the mob and one for the money bags. If we abuse our credit card we get cut off but if the big boys do it to us we the public are expected to be last in line to be paid. Banks etc are first off the rank to get paid whats left from the wreckage and us as in unsecured creditors I think is the term are last.
    I,ve been keeping an eye on the posts and would have commented before but although on a pension just haven,t had the time needed. Long ago in my teens working 6 days a week I watched the moratorium marches and felt they were worthwhile but I never joined them. I felt the Viet Nam war was wrong but protests were things others did not printing apprentices. I have often regretted I didn,t join those anti war protesters and thankfully my number didn,t come up in the draft. What a lotto to win/lose that would have been. As an aside nobody I knew or associated with were ever disrespectful to returned aussie Viet servicemen and am puzzled about alleged abuse of such people. Is it more that institutions like the RSL didn,t accord them the same respect as WW servicemen rather than the joe blow in the street who had no bias at all ?

  87. Son of foro

    The Green Tea Party.

    I thank you.

  88. TheTruthHurts

    [“Now we have seen the pictures of people with blood streaming down their face, and several ambos at the scene (I saw one guy looking pretty concussed in the back of one with ambos all over him)- are we allowed to call in brutality or at least “unreasonable force”.”]

    Hi Madeline.

    The socialists were told to move on, the socialists refused to move on.

    Therefore what did you want the police to do? Join in and sing kum-bi-ya with the socialists? They were illegally swatting on council land(uno… NOT their private property) and were told to leave… yet they refused.

    Sometimes the only way to deal with lefties when they behave like this is with batons and pepper spray. The lefties get the message then.

  89. madelinelizabeth

    Love it Clapham Omnibus! 🙂 Had to stop posting yesterday cause I respect my workplace… anyway…

    Now we have seen the pictures of people with blood streaming down their face, and several ambos at the scene (I saw one guy looking pretty concussed in the back of one with ambos all over him)- are we allowed to call in brutality or at least “unreasonable force”.

    And it didn’t stop after lunch time- as myself and hundreds of other office workers were making our way from work down LaTrobe st yesterday avo there were more of these heinous acts of Police bullying tactics – picking kids off from the crowd, slamming them against Police Vans and/or the ground, handcuffing them and shoving them into the back of vans for “breach of the peace” and “tresspass” (walking on the road, where the police where pushing them). Scores of distressed passers-by stopped in shock to witness this behaviour and question the Police over their activities.

    I’ll admit I wasn’t that into this whole “99%” frame when it started, but I found what I saw yesterday scary: if the Police have the discretion to end peaceful protests in this way and arrest people for tresspass on the streets that’s got to be a worry for anyone who values freedom of speech.

  90. Jean

    If you are going to have a riot squad, you have to expect them to go looking for riots now and then.

  91. drsmithy

    Would those too lazy to work get the most? Or would it be given to low income workers and pay them more then their job output?

    Ah, if only people’s incomes were related to their “job output”. Then unproductive but grossly overcompensated “workers” in the finance and real-estate industries might not have had the ability to bring the world to the brink of destruction.

  92. TheTruthHurts

    [“Definition of irony.. Tth criticizing protesters for not working where his job appears to be fairly idle or non existent in posting 20 or more illogical, ranting forum posts in a day instead of doing work valuable to his employer or business. (work ethic?)”]

    I run my own small business and do quite well for myself, but thanks for your concern.

    Does centrelink know these bludgers were missing 6 days of university classes and 6 days of missed job searching? Centrelink should have been down there collecting names.

  93. SBH

    In fact as I look further into it, I wonder what offence the protestors committed at all and how the ‘arrests’ were legal

  94. SBH

    No that’s wrong Scott, under 224A a police officer can only enforce a local law regulates the use, possession or consumption of alcohol. Under 224 the council must appoint people and those peoples names must be kept in a register. It seems some other law must have been used. Doyle has acted alone.

    And yes that chap on the charabanc the irony was not lost on me.

  95. Scott

    Keep reading SBH

    Under the definition of Authorised officer in the act

    “Authorised officer” means:
    (a)
    a person appointed by the Council to be an authorised officer under section 224 of the Act; or
    (b)
    upon the Council publishing a notice in the Government Gazette under section 224A of the Act, any police officer.

    So as long as a notice is published in the Government Gazette, the police can be empowered to enforce local laws.

  96. the man on the clapham omnibus

    Definition of irony.. Tth criticizing protesters for not working where his job appears to be fairly idle or non existent in posting 20 or more illogical, ranting forum posts in a day instead of doing work valuable to his employer or business. (work ethic?)

  97. TheTruthHurts

    [“I think the unequal distribution of wealth in this country is worth protesting about, especially when mining companies and NSW clubs can spend millions and millions of dollars on their attempts to influence policy and maintain their hold on money and resources.”]

    Hi Nici,

    How would you spread the wealth around?

    Would those too lazy to work get the most? Or would it be given to low income workers and pay them more then their job output?

    Would you tax the rich more to make them pay for being successful? What limitation on success would you want? Is $200K too successful? What about $300K a year?

    What about people working 80 hour weeks and making over $150K a year are they too rich and should we be punishing them for working such long days? Should we force them to only work 40 hour weeks because they are making too much money? How many hours should they be forced to work a week maximum?

    What about yourself? Paying too little tax? Or too much tax? Does your tax rate need to go up or only the people above you?

    Perhaps what we need is the government to designate us all a job. Then we can all be paid exactly the same amount and told what to do with our lives. We’ll all make the same as the brain surgeon so he’ll be cheap to employ, it’ll be a socialist wonderland of goodness. Perhaps we’ll pick occupations out of a hat. I’ve got my fingers crossed for the bakers job.

  98. AR

    Just on the general point of the ranks of biddable blues which Jack London made more than a century ago. The State can always hire & feed enough ruffians to beat the bejasus out of anyone at whom they are pointed.
    There was recently some talk of a quest to find a better name for our species than Hom. Sap. – I would suggest Homo Obediens (apologies for the cod latin, it’s been over half a century since I was in skool), the vast majority are unable to conceive of autonomy or personal responsibility for their actions.
    Hence their “just following orders” excuse when asked why they do something unconscionable.
    Most are never happier than when someone else is telling them what to do, and to whom to do it. Unfortunately they are also obliged to vote, despite not knowing which end is up.

  99. SBH

    Scott, I’ve looked at the Activities Local Law and it doesn’t appear to have any provision for police to remove people who break it. That means we still don’t know what power the police used to remove protesters. Maybe they can just pick people up and move them for any reason they like, just like in North Korea. ANyone with an answer I’d be happy to hear it.

    Sorry Richard you misunderstood me. I wasn’t being sarcastic, it did make sense in that it’s the sort of thing a ranting right wing nutbar would rant.

  100. Nici

    I think the unequal distribution of wealth in this country is worth protesting about, especially when mining companies and NSW clubs can spend millions and millions of dollars on their attempts to influence policy and maintain their hold on money and resources.

    I hope all those kids were on the dole. If they were, they were doing a worthwhile public duty. And yes, the dole needs raising. It’s a long way from a liveable level.

  101. TheTruthHurts

    NICI what were you protesting against and please… be specific.

  102. Nici

    Well I’m a worker and a taxpayer and I put in a couple of (admittedly short) stints at Occupy Melbourne this week. I’m very disappointed in the actions of Robert Doyle and fully support the people who were camping in the City Square.
    Even if I don’t agree 100 per cent with everyone down there, I fully support their right to be there.

  103. TheTruthHurts

    [“Why do you have so much anger TTH? Working too hard? Not reaping the mega profits in your IT repair shop?”]

    I work hard for a living, pay my taxes and respect the laws.

    I’m actually for freedom of speech, liberties and democracy. I therefore don’t like a minority rabble trying to wreck other peoples lives as it’s against everything I stand for.

    Sure have your protests, but don’t be a nuisance on others lives. The whole claim by these socialists is that they are going to have an occupation of the city centre and shut down the city. That doesn’t sound like a protest, that sounds like an attack on our cities.

    BTW, what exactly are these guys protesting about? Are they wanting a dole raise or something? I doubt any of them has worked a hard days work in their lives and I wonder if Centrelink knows about them skipping University Lectures and job interviews for 6 days?

  104. TheTruthHurts

    These lefties should be calling themselves “The other 0.99%”

    That’s roughly the vote the Socialist Alliance party gets in Australian elections. what a bunch of loud mouth, smelly, dreadlocked, dole bludging rabble wrecking it for the rest of us.

    Melbourne has been Liberated of it’s Occupation. Next up, Sydney.

  105. Richard Wilson

    No worries SBH. If you’re concerned, let me know which parts you had trouble understanding and I’ll explain them to you.

    Wouldn’t want you to miss out on any rebuttal on behalf of the minority (again)

  106. SBH

    So Jimmy, bankers will no longer make obscene profit because of six little days? If only I’d known all along that’s what it would take.

    Thanks Richard, that rant really made sense

  107. matticus

    Why do you have so much anger TTH? Working too hard? Not reaping the mega profits in your IT repair shop?

  108. Richard Wilson

    Exactly. The true 99% of people dont want to have to listen to this, put up with the smell, or pay the damages that this group are causing. Like my mate who just emailed me talking about how hard it’s goign to be to get out of work now because they’re moving around outside his building. They’re disrupting the 99% who don’t give a rats about their nonsense.

    There’s people trying to live normally and get to the shops that these people are surrounding to spend their hard earned capitaslist dollars.

    If they truly want what they’re protesting about then there’s plenty of countries that operate like it; Vietnam, North Korea, Laos.. move to one of those places and enjoy yourself

  109. TheTruthHurts

    Jimmy, the Lord Mayor of Melbourne has Liberated Occupied Melbourne.

    The truth is the other 99% have jobs, lives and don’t like these socialist scumbags choking up the city with their stink.

  110. Jimmy

    SBH – So how long? As I said this issue isn’t going away anytime soon so do we have people camping in the square for eternity?
    To me 6 days is long enough, they made their point.

    “the Americans, who give protests short shrift, were able to cope with weeks,” As I said the Americans also have a much more legitimate gripe.

  111. SBH

    Two thing jimmy

    first, the whole square hasn’t been occupied for six days. the protest has built.

    second, why is six days enough or too much. the Americans, who give protests short shrift, were able to cope with weeks, a bedraggled peace camp outside Westminster, years. Why in Australia is six pathetic days enough?

  112. Jimmy

    Still waiting on a time frame for how long these protestors should of been allowed to stay there!

  113. Aphra

    I note that the police in Sydney say that they’ve heard nothing about ‘moving on’ the Sydney protesters. Of course not – they’re not expecting a visit from the Queen within a few days.

    Melbourne couldn’t possibly allow her to see such a gaggle of rag tag and bobtails. Her Majesty would have been shocked, shocked I say, as such things never happen in London.

  114. Jimmy

    LisaCrago – I have to agree.

  115. LisaCrago

    One week really is long enough….
    Cr Doyle said the Occupy Melbourne activists, who had camped in the city space for a week, had caused at least $15,000 and it would take two days to clean up the city centre.
    “If they were to go peacefully my view is they would do their cause great credit and people would say, ‘Fair enough, you made a point, it’s a pretty remarkable thing to occupy the centre of the city for a week’ …I think it would be the best underscoring of their cause – or they could turn in to a rabble that needs to be removed forcibly, which would be ugly and I think damage the credibly of their cause,” Cr Doyle told 3AW.
    Doyle is sounding fair and rasonable in my opinion.

  116. Ten black donkeys

    “Victoria Police have acted on Lord Mayor Robert Doyle’s demands to evict members of Occupy Melbourne from their indefinite camp in the City Square, calling in the force’s shield-wielding riot squad to disperse the tent city.”

    Went through the entire photo-gallery – didn’t see a single shield.

  117. Jimmy

    Can anybody tell me exactly how long these protestors should of been allowed to “occupy Melbourne”?

  118. LisaCrago

    These people were clearly breaking a law and were moved on.
    So what is wrong with the police doing their job?
    It seems that this action by the police was legal and justified.
    But can we justify the actions of;
    “protester David Schoeffe, said he was planning to stay put regardless. “Practically speaking it’s going to be awhile before I get hungry so I’ll be here until I get arrested,”
    It seems some want to get arrested and no doubt they will then blame the police for doing their job.
    Police do not make the laws, they are just the poor bastards made to enforce it.
    In all my past involvement at protests I have not put myself in a hostile confrontational situation and have obeyed all police instructions, cause to do otherwise means you are not peacefully protesting.

    I was disgusted with the S11 protests in melbourne years ago. The violent actions of protesters was a disgrace. I still remember the throwing of marbles under the feet of the horses aimed at making them fall, no doubt, so do the police.

  119. Son of foro

    “Liberty doesn’t mean freedom to impede on others lives, that’s the opposite of liberty.”

    Ah the Inglourious Basterd that is our troller who artfully in haven, the Spoofer Whoer Hurter! Note his support of Andrew Bolt’s liberty to lie! Note his agitation at socialist agitator scumbags impeding socialists onto others! Liberty or death? I mean, death or liberty!

    Intellectually compromised? Not our spoofie, nothing to see here, move on … no, wait, pick up your garbage … no, move on … I mean, pick up your … arrrghhh … just smash some skulls!!!!!!

  120. Jimmy

    SBH- “But by that logic, they had at least as much right to use the space as the council did to ask them to move” That may be the case but they were given a good run of 6 days, now the thousands of other users of the square get their turn.

  121. Chris Tallis

    Trufie
    Where do you work today?
    Can you remember your latest fib?
    And you’re hard at it I see.

  122. Jimmy

    SBH – Given this problem isn’t going to be fixed any time soon (probably not ever to a level satisfactory for the protestors) how long do the rest of the “public” go without access to their square?

    Chris- “Yet avoiding a problem or protesting an existing problem isn’t a worthwhile cause?” have a look at the wealth distribution figures I posted earlier, Austrlaia is getting better not worse. But As I have said I agree with the point but surely 6 days is long enough to make it.

    Liz45 – This country has one of the best wealth distributions in the world, why don’t you list the billions spent on newstart or FTB or medicare or the PBS etc etc and compare that to the US. We are far far better off.

  123. TheTruthHurts

    [“Fancy TTH resorting to revolting sexist rubbish like ‘sucking on the ????tit’ etc. Wouldn’t expect anything else really.”]

    Oh here we go. You sure it wasn’t racism Liz? Left need to come up with some new lines of attack, this old ones are getting quite tiring now.

    [“Funny how there was no violence until police arrive.”]

    Tends to happen when people don’t submit to legal enforced move-along laws. There is always violence at leftie protests, because lefties don’t follow laws, rules or orders.

    [“As one of them said, ‘we built the bloody place, why shouldn’t we be allowed to congregate here’?”]

    Now that’s the laugh of the week, these bludgers haven’t worked a hard day in their life and are mostly dole bludgers living off the hard work of others. “Equality” all right, how bout being equal and getting off their fat arses and doing some work like the rest of us.

  124. SBH

    Jimmy ‘And aren’t the 100 protestors jsut a “tiny fraction of the people who use Melbourne’s public spaces”

    Really? I don’t think you’d cop that reasoning from TTH. But by that logic, they had at least as much right to use the space as the council did to ask them to move. I think this incident shows how tenuous our rights are in Australia – you think the smelly protesters should move on. let’s move on to something more productive

  125. Chris Tallis

    Jimmy the problem in Australia I agree isn’t as pronounced, yet.
    Yet avoiding a problem or protesting an existing problem isn’t a worthwhile cause?
    And I read about a protester being trampled by a police horse.
    People are animals of a sort Jimmy and from your point of view you could easily be accused of condoning animal violence.

  126. Liz45

    Fancy TTH resorting to revolting sexist rubbish like ‘sucking on the ????tit’ etc. Wouldn’t expect anything else really. Funny how there was no violence until police arrive. I’ve heard passers by or those just having a look say, that the protesters were well behaved. As one of them said, ‘we built the bloody place, why shouldn’t we be allowed to congregate here’? Even the police person said that over the 6 or so days, there was no problem. The problems started with the Mayor insisting on their removal? That’s it!

    I disagree that their protests are not relevant to this country. The same people/corporate wealth etc who caused all the grief overseas are milking our govt monies re subsidies, protections etc – such as the banks? Making billions in profits, usually for such basic fees and charges as people drawing on their own money???
    11Billion per year to fossil fuel industries.
    $2.3 billion re the surcharge for superannuation – only for those who receive $100,000+ per year.
    $32 BILLION per year for defence?
    More monies go to demonising Centrelink people than trying to get the Billions of dollars big business etc don’t pay!
    The list goes on! This is just a small number! They’re relevant and favour the rich or the war machine!
    Tasmania paid Gunns millions$$$$ for recent agreement not to wreck the native forests of that state???

  127. SBH

    And the cherry on the cake of course is that the law wasn’t used to get rid of the protesters because were commiting any nuisance; adversely affect the amenity of that public place;
    interfering with the use or enjoyment of that public place or the personal comfort of another person in or on that public place; annoying, molesting or obstructing any other person in or on that public place; nor were they moved on because they were defecating or urinating except in a toilet or urinal (as the case may be) in a public convenience; or commiting an indecent or offensive act; or use any threatening, abusive or insulting words.

    The police were used as Doyle’s private ‘i don’t like you’ enforcers. The law was used to clear out unsightly protesters before an anachronistic anti-democratic parasite parades around Melbourne at the tax-payers expense.

  128. Jimmy

    Mark form Melb – “which is why today’s stuff seems a bit of a contrast” I think you need to look to the protestors for that, as I have said they wanted the confrontation.

    SBH – “Jimmy, the law was exercised by a whim of the Lord Mayor” Just like he overlooked the law so they could protest for 6 days. They agreed they would move on when asked, they were asked they didn’t move on. How long would they be allowed to occupy a public space to the detriment of all other users?

    “The law was made by a council that represents a tiny fraction of the people who use Melbourne’s public spaces” And aren’t the 100 protestors jsut a “tiny fraction of the people who use Melbourne’s public spaces”

    I also could have more sympathy for these protestors if they weren’t trying to co-opt a legitimate protest in the US about wealth distribution into Australia where the problem isn’t as pronounced.

  129. Richard Wilson

    Reminds me of a chat I had with my father when I was little down in Hobart.. went a little something like this;

    “daddy, when they’ve stopped every tree from being cut down and the woodchoppers have to go and do something else, then what are they going these people going to do?”

    “They’ll just make something else up to protest about son”

    This is the something else i’m guessing.. most pointless protest i’ve seen ever i think. The irony of it is; they’re protesting for a lifestyle, that a lot of them’s very own ancestors would have fought wars over so they would never have to live like it.

  130. SBH

    Jimmy, the law was exercised by a whim of the Lord Mayor. The law was made by a council that represents a tiny fraction of the people who use Melbourne’s public spaces. the same law is used to target all sorts of other ‘undesirables’.

    It is always interesting to compare and contrast the rights English citizens have to assembly with our own. Today’s police action would not be possible in England if the protesters were in a public space. Here, in the Lucky Country, our ‘public’ spaces are actually private and your access can be restricted very easily.

    Truthie, you’ve started shouting early today – up the largactil.

  131. Chris Tallis

    If those animals are ridden on marbles Jimmy it is cruelty by the riders? The people putting the marbles there are not forcing the horses onto them.
    I wonder if that would stick in court?
    Thanks for the idea.

  132. TheTruthHurts

    [“Chris Tallis – “horses don’t like to tread on marbles.” So animal cruelty us OK by you then?”]

    They are apparently armchair environmentalists as well, the place was left in a complete mess and 4 garbage trucks had to be called in to clean up the mess they left.

    Hate to see the state of the fountain, probably been used as a communal drinking fountain AND toilet.

  133. Mark from Melbourne

    Jimmy

    You are quite possibly right. Just seemed a surprising amount of police – at least to me. Anyway as I commented it was all very good natured by all concerned which is why today’s stuff seems a bit of a contrast.

  134. LJG..............

    Doyle has created a problem where there wasn’t one – there were no disruptions to public transport until the cops moved in.

    There are small and large protests all over the city of Melbourne every day- the falun gong are camped out outside the Chinese Embassy permanently and I ran into some bizarre middle aged ladies outside a medical clinic who were saying hail Mary’s over and over and weeping the other day. Strangely enough nobody ever thinks of asking the if they are gainfully employed and although these protests go on day after day nobody ever moves them along.

    Oh and the Socialists are out a lot on the corner of Swanston and Bourke “TheTruthHurts” and no they don’t disrupt the trams – I catch the tram home every night. Public Transport will probably be a mess tonight because Doyle has created a mess.

  135. Jimmy

    SBH – “Our rights to assembly are constrained.” They were allowed there for 6 days all the while contravening the law Scott mentioned, hardly a constraint I would of thought, rather tolerant actually.

    Mark from Melbourne – The palestinians would have advised the police they were holding a march, the police would assigned members without actually knowing the numbers so it is more a case of a smaller than expected turnout rather than heavy handed policing.

    Chris Tallis – “horses don’t like to tread on marbles.” So animal cruelty us OK by you then?

  136. Chris Tallis

    Acetone works a treat on perspex and horses don’t like to tread on marbles.
    Just sayin.

  137. TheTruthHurts

    Of course the lefties wanted it to turn violent.

    They always cry “oh my god, how could this have happened! The police are such monsters!” after being given LEGAL DIRECTIVE to move on, and refusing that order.

    What do they want the police to do, get on their hands and knees and beg them to move on? They were told to move on. They didn’t move on. Police moved in to move them on.

    Blame for “violence” therefore ENTIRELY the socialists fault.

  138. SBH

    “If you had people in front of you pushing you and not moving out of the way what would you do?”

    What? Like they do on the train and tram everyday? I guess I’d go around them or go another day? Or maybe I’d engage them in conersation to find out what they were complaining about.

    I guess that’s the difference between you and me, you want to hit people and I’m just not that angry.

    Thanks Scott – I expected there was some statute like that. It does seem that the words ’cause or commit any nuisance;
    adversely affect the amenity of that public place’

    are so broad as to be an effective (impactive in the modern idiom?) bar on anything the city doesn’t like. Hence, and back to my original point, these places are not public. Our rights to assembly are constrained. Australians have very few ‘rights’

  139. Mark from Melbourne

    I thought Melbourne was a bit more evolved and tolerant than this shows, which seems very Joe Bjelke-P.

    It is a reasonable point that they are trying to make and as far as I can see they weren’t really doing much harm doing it. I guess that the CoM had something they wanted to do that would have been tarnished by the camp – Spring Carnival anyone?

    BTW, I was in the city last weekend at the Library and there was a very small pro-Palestinian march. I have never seen so many police and, whilst it was all very good natured including the police, that they appeared to almost outnumber the marchers seemed a bit over the top.

    Is there a bit of a pattern emerging? I do have the sense that this sort of thing fits Doyle’s profile.

  140. Jimmy

    madelinelizabeth- “I wonder if the irony was lost on CoM and co, that these brutal arrests for “breach of the peace” were the moment this peaceful protest turned ugly?” Brutal arrests, I am yet to see evidence of an arrest let alone one classed as “brutal” where are the protestors being taken away in ambulances, or with blood streaming down their face?

    As for it being the moment the peace ful protest turned ugly, they apparently had earlier in the week given assurances that they would move on when asked, now we have comments like “Practically speaking it’s going to be awhile before I get hungry so I’ll be here until I get arrested,”. As I said some of them wanted this to turn ugly.

  141. Scott

    If you look up that Melbourne Council Activities Local Act, you get the following

    Part 2: Behaviour – Prohibited activities in public places
    2.1 A person must not in, on or within the hearing or sight of a public place:

    cause or commit any nuisance;
    adversely affect the amenity of that public place;
    interfere with the use or enjoyment of that public place or the personal comfort of another person in or on that public place;
    annoy, molest or obstruct any other person in or on that public place;
    defecate or urinate except in a toilet or urinal (as the case may be) in a public convenience; or
    commit an indecent or offensive act; or
    use any threatening, abusive or insulting words

    2.2 A person must not in or on a public place:

    destroy, damage, alter, mark, deface or remove any property or thing;
    walk on or over any plant bed, plant box or garden plot except with the consent of the proprietor;
    cause risk of personal injury or damage to property by climbing or walking on or over, sitting on or sliding down any structure, building, fixture, free standing object, appliance or equipment (other than play equipment or recreation and fitness equipment installed by the Council) except with the consent of the proprietor;
    after having been directed to leave by an authorised officer, enter or remain in any area, place, building or structure that is not open to the public; or
    enter any area, place, building or structure in respect of which the Council has prescribed an entry fee, unless the entry fee has been paid to an authorised officer or authorised representative of the Council or the person enters in accordance with the written consent of the Council or the proprietor.

    The protestors are pretty much “adversly affecting the amenity of that public place” and they have “after having been directed to leave by an authorised officer, enter or remain in any area, place, building or structure that is not open to the public”. So it is no surprise they are getting the boot.

  142. TheTruthHurts

    [“Truthie, your foray into violence is nasty, if not unexected.”]

    Hi SBH,

    If you had people infront of you pushing you and not moving out of the way what would you do?

    Same deal here. Scumbags getting in the way of other people running their lives. Thats the whole purpose of the “occupation” isn’t it? To impede these socialists onto others lives, shut down the city centre and generally cause chaos.

    I’m a big supporter of liberty and democracy. Liberty doesn’t mean freedom to impede on others lives, that’s the opposite of liberty.

  143. Jimmy

    SBH – “law can decide on a whim to move anyone on” It isn’t on a whim, there is a council by law that prevents the raising of tent, the same thing that stops people camping on foreshores in coastal towns. The council allowed them there for 6 days, gave them fair warning of the time of eviction and yet some chose to stay.

    As for the land being public, my definiton of public means it is open for all, not to be “occupied” indefinitely by 100 people.

    I do consider myself a “liberal” and as I said the original message of the protestors is one I agree with (although I don’t see it being such a problem in Australia) but they have been given the opportunity to make their protest and now it’s time to move on.

  144. SBH

    Truthie, your foray into violence is nasty, if not unexected.

    David Allen at the moment the monkeys are paying $1.25

  145. TheTruthHurts

    You are right Jimmy, most of these people are professional protestors whom wanted to be arrested so they can feel like they are in the 1970’s again.

    Not much to protest for anymore these days…. next weeks rally will be about Land Rights for Gay Whales.

    My problem isn’t that these dole bludging socialists want to protest, but the fact they think they are important enough to try and “occupy” a city. If they were in my city and got in my way of living my life, I certainly would be obliged to “liberate” myself and my city from these scumbags.

  146. madelinelizabeth

    You can be arrested for “breach of the peace” though- that wonderful catch-all, as described above. I wonder if the irony was lost on CoM and co, that these brutal arrests for “breach of the peace” were the moment this peaceful protest turned ugly? 🙂

  147. Jimmy

    madelinelizabeth-“you can be arrested and released immediately which I believe is what has probably happened to most of the arrestees” While that may be technically correct it also implies that a charge has been laid, which as you suggest is highly unlikely. So more than likely they have probably been restrained (possibly for the police protection) removed from the area and released without charge. Which is different from “being arrested”!

  148. SBH

    TTH does the phrase “Mr Neal is entitled to be an agitator” ring any bells? It’s a basic statement of human rights in Australia and you shouldn’t give it up so easily. As for the police ‘cracking heads’ what part of a civil democracy should that be?

    Jimmy – I don’t know enough about the laws of tresspass to comment but if the law can decide on a whim to move anyone on than that land is not ‘public’. It highlights some of the rights we don’t have in this country. I thought you were more liberal than your comment suggests.

  149. Jimmy

    Noiresque – “Riot police? Is that really necessary?” Would you prefer they used people who weren’t specially trained to deal with these situations, get some young constable off the beat who loses his cool?

    TTH – Even “socialists, anarchists and communists” have a right to protest because we aren’t living in a “socialist dictatorship”. So while I actually agree that it was time for them to move on and that the 100 left today are more than likely professional protestors determined to get the cops to arrest them and make them the victim, their original message (even though it doesn’t apply here as much as they make out) and the right to say it I agree with.

    I do have to laugh at the we are the 99% slogan, I don’t really think that they are representative of the everyday Australian and the wealth and power isn’t as centralised in Australia as the 99% figure implies.

  150. madelinelizabeth

    @Jimmy- I don’t mean to infer that you are a simpleton, but you can be arrested and released immediately which I believe is what has probably happened to most of the arrestees, as they were crowded into the intersection of Swanston and Collins when I was down there.
    I’ve heard that the reason they were removed because they were not following CoM guidelines for public spaces, namely raising tents and hanging banners. How on earth they will charge individuals for these offences is beyond me, and frankly I think there’ll be a lot more police brutality cases than cases against individuals for pitching a tent in city square!

  151. TheTruthHurts

    [“Err! Once again you’re up a gum tree. The ‘occupy’ movement represents the interests of working and middle class taxpayers.”]

    Uhhh no… they represent socialists, anarchists and communists.

    Ever notice all the Socialist Alliance banners at the “protests”. And what do these “middle class crusaders” do for a living? Sit on the f’ing dole all day sucking the tit of the hard working aussie tax payer.

    Word has it these bludgers started blocking trams(uno… that vehicle the “middle class and working class” use?) from getting to it’s destinations. Was time to roll in the cops and Liberate the city of Melbourne.

  152. TheTruthHurts

    My post was completely rational.

    Dole bludging anarchists proclaiming to “occupy” the city of Melbourne trying to cause as much mayhem and trouble to everyday hard working taxpaying Australians are finally getting their just deserts.

    If you want to occupy Melbourne, expect the police and public to “Liberate” their city using all means possible. Our country isn’t a socialist dictatorship… not yet anyway.

  153. Jimmy

    madelinelizabeth – it’s not for tresspass, they aren’t allowed to camp there. At the end of the day I think very few if any will actually be arrested and if the person had been arrested for taking photo’s how were you able to hear them say it?

  154. Noiresque

    Riot police? Is that really necessary? Lord help us. We do live in a nanny state. But people are happy with it, and the people who do challenge it are considered wastrells. The DT poll shows a negative response to the (unsurprisingly, much smaller) Occupy Sydney protest at 75-25.

  155. Cade Buchanan

    The TruthHurts: Generalising is lazy and makes you look like a simpleton. Do you ANYTHING about any of the 100 or so protestors? Age? Job Status? But then what should I expect from someone who calls themself ‘the truth hurts’, which is generally another way of saying ‘shoot your mouth off first ask questions later’.

  156. madelinelizabeth

    Just went down in my lunch break. Protesters being dragged out by their hair, bashed and pinned to the ground. Office workers crying after witnessing brutality.
    This is in the city’s public square! As far as I was aware too, you can’t be arrested for tresspass on public land, so I’m not not sure what they’re being charged with. Heard one person say they’d been arrested for taking photographs of police.

  157. David Allen

    TTH

    Err! Once again you’re up a gum tree. The ‘occupy’ movement represents the interests of working and middle class taxpayers.

    You’ll get something right one day. I just wonder if it will be before the monkey finishes writing Shakespeare.

  158. Jimmy

    TTH- Just once could you surprise with a rational intelligent post, just once.

  159. TheTruthHurts

    With Occupation…. comes Liberation.

    Crack some skulls Vic Police and make sure they never come back. While hard working Australians are busy at work paying taxes, these dole bludging louts are sucking the public tit then causing as much trouble as possible for people to go about their every day lives.

    Scum, the lot of them.

  160. Jimmy

    Further to my point this is much more of an issue in the US:

    According to the CIA World Fact Book, the U.S. is ranked as the 42nd most unequal country in the world, with a Gini Coefficient of 45.

    In contrast:
    – Tunisia is ranked the 62nd most unequal country, with a Gini Coefficient of 40.
    – Yemen is ranked 76th most unequal, with a Gini Coefficient of 37.7.
    – And Egypt is ranked as the 90th most unequal country, with a Gini Coefficient of around 34.4.

    Australia’s Gini index was 35.2 (1994) and 30.5 (2006)

    This link also has a map which shows the issue pretty clearly
    theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/map-us-ranks-near-bottom-on-income-inequality/245315/

  161. Jimmy

    SBH – ” being able to arrest being on public land seems to call into question the term ‘public’” First has there actually been any arrests and second public land belongs to everyone, not just a hundred odd people making a political point.

  162. Jimmy

    This article is inflamatory clap trap.

    The attitude of the protestors is summed up with this quote “Practically speaking it’s going to be awhile before I get hungry so I’ll be here until I get arrested,”. They want the police to arrest them, they want to be seen to be victimised. In reality they were given 6 days of occupation to raise awareness of their issue (one that relates more to the US than it does here but an issue all the same) and they were then given plenty of time to move on. It seems to be very fair treatment to me.

  163. SBH

    “We have enough resources to reclaim the land for the City of Melbourne”

    so what were the ‘occupiers’ if not part of the city.? I know there’s a leagl entity called CoM but being able to arrest people for being on public land seems to call into question the term ‘public’.

    Any lawyers out there who can clarify?

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