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Federal

Nov 23, 2010

Named and shamed

The reaction to the Federal Government's new immigration detention centre in South Australia has turned ugly, with a far Right party determined to exploit it.

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The far-right Australia First Party, which was revealed yesterday seeking to exploit resentment toward the proposed Inverbrackie immigration detention facility by letterboxing a viciously anti-refugee pamphlet, has started publicly identifying “supporters” of the Inverbrackie immigration facility as part of its effort to “mobilize” the people of the Adelaide Hills against asylum seekers.

The party, which stood candidates in Queensland in the recent Federal election, has distributed a pamphlet in the Adelaide Hills that refers to a refugee “invasion” and calls for a “community strike” to ostracise anyone who supports the facility. It claims the Government is “handing over army bases” to “cashed-up ‘asylum seekers'” as part of “recolonization of your land”.

adelaidehills

The party attacked Adelaide Hills mayor Bill Spragg on its website after he told the ABC the council was considering taking legal action to prevent further distributions of the material. The party declared “Australia First refuses to bow to intimidation”.

Yesterday it listed a number of individuals whom it declares, without any evidence, “would permit the Inverbrackie refugee processing centre to come into being”. “People in the Adelaide Hills need to be fully aware who stands in the people’s cause and who stands against (for whatever reason) the interest of the Australian People,” the site goes on to declare.

The website, which was hastily set up using free blogging site Blogspot in late October, goes further than the pamphlet.

“The dark terror that will be waged by Moslem extremists, Tamil Tiger guerrillas, Afghan drug criminals, African animists and so on is but a matter of time. It sums to culture busting (the process by which Australian community feeling and identity is broken down) and is also a type of state-terrorism against the Australian population — ethnic cleansing!

“Resistance must become permanent, regardless of what the government does.”

The site promises that refugees would be returned “by force if necessary”.

Controversy has surrounded the Inverbrackie facility since its announcement in October by the Prime Minister and new Immigration Minister Chris Bowen, principally around the lack of consultation with locals. Local MP Jamie Briggs has repeatedly criticised the government for the lack of discussions with the local community prior to the announcement of the facility.

The Australia First website makes a point of berating both major parties rather than just the Government, and bizarrely attacks Briggs for “deceiving the people of the Hills.”

“So much for the Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott election-period spin on deterring ‘asylum seekers’. Stop the boats? No: fly them in! Disused army facilities will be turned over to the parasites.”

The controversy has taken on more sinister overtones in recent days with local businessman David Prince complaining to the media about the threat posed to property, children and “wives” by detainees and the siting of the facility near an Army camp. “The mind just boggles to think what’s in that Army camp that the refugees would love to know about. It’s just a disgrace,” Prince is reported as saying.

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99 thoughts on “Named and shamed

  1. Jim Reiher

    There are some really ignorant people in this country.
    Then there are the frightened and easily manipulated.
    Then there are the racists who exploit ignorance and fear.

    wow… what a bunch of horrible people! I would much rather have for my neighbour, an Afghani farming family that has fled war to start a new life in a multicultural free and democratic country, than the nasty folk behind this attack! Put me on the list of people who are pro-asylum seekers!

    Even as I write in horror about such unpleasant and selfish Australians, I am reminded that one of the great challanges of democracy is to tolerate the intolerant. The best way to fight people and ideas like this is by education, discussion and open and honest dialogue and debate. The extremists who are most vocal in their racism wont be convinced, (to much pride attached to their stated position) – but the ignorant and fearful can be won over….

  2. Stevo the Working Twistie

    Tea Party, anyone? I’ll have mine white – of course! But Australia is not a racist country, oh no. Some of my best friends are cashed-up Tamil culture busters.

  3. Bogdanovist

    Had a quick look at the AFP party website. It looks at though ‘Far Right Party’ does not correctly describe them as suggested in the article. They appear to be protectionist and agrarian socialist to go with their anti-immigration anti-multiculturalism stance. Pretty much like Hanonism and some extremes of the National party, but not ‘Right Wing’.

  4. Holden Back

    And these people would be offended if you suggested they didn’t know what they were talking about.

    Briggs is contemptible.

  5. shepherdmarilyn

    Briggs is a contemptible toad, so is Abbott and so is Morrison. Bob Menzies would be spinning in his grave.

    Saleem is not even Australian himself and the downward envy of people who have been bombed out of their homes is repugnant.

    There is really not much resistance to the centre so long as people are not treated like criminals like they are now.

    It beggars bloody belief that 400 white tourists would be greeted with open arms, yet 400 people blasted out of their homes and countries with no choice of their own can be abused by these freaks and lying morons.

  6. shepherdmarilyn

    And Prince does not have a business in the hills area that I can find, he has been an agitator for One Nation for years.

  7. Jim Reiher

    The ignorance over asylum seekers is tragic. Consider the insanity of locking up boat arrivals who seek asylum and yet allowing place arrivals who seek asylum to live in the broader community. And the stats: over 90% (as much as 95%) of applications for asylum come from plane arrivals. So a tiny, tiny handful of asylum seekers get put in detention. Why? Because they came on a boat not a plane.

    And yet… the stats again: nearly every single person who applies as a boat arrival will in fact be accepted here. And only 45% of those who arrive by plane are accepted. The “not really asylum seekers” are not the boat arrivals. They are half the plane arrival applicants – who get to live in the community while their applications are assessed.

    So we lock up the real asylum seekers, and we allow to roam around, the ones who are 50:50 maybe real maybe not.

    Insanity!

    ALL applicants for asylum (boat and plane arrivals) should be checked for health and security reasons and then allowed to live in the community. The checks should be able to be done in 2 to 3 months, like most advanced civilized countries of the world do. But we lock up a tiny % of them, and then we end up accepting those ones (about 95% of them in fact) after a year or more in detention (it could be 3-5 years during the Howard years).

    Here’s a thought: if we don’t want boat arrivals from war torn countries, lets try to keep peace in the world. Helping to start the war in Afghanistan might have had all sorts of motives (some good some not so good) but once it started … did no one THINK that it would lead to dislocated civilians fleeing? Wake up and smell the roses: if you help start wars in your own region, you will get asylum seekers fleeing from the war! It is not rocket science.

  8. Liz45

    I don’t know whether to scream or cry? If I have to watch that Morrison one more time???

    Where did these so-called Aussies come from? Are they indigenous? They should be the ones worrying about losing their identity/culture etc. It would be funny if not for the fact, that it’s horrific and cruel.

    If the people who arrive by boat are not fair dinkum, how about these hateful people going there to check it out for themselves? Perhaps Gillard and Abbott etc would take them for a little holiday to Afghanistan? If these countries are so damned safe, why are there troops there? Basking in the sun?

    Damned if I know why this bs is allowed to continue! It’s exhausting having to repeat the facts, over and over!!

  9. Gavin Moodie

    According to Wikipedia the head of the Australia First Party is Jim Saleam, a stalwart of the Australian far right who was convicted of organising a shotgun attack on the home of a local representative of the African National Congress in the late 1980s.

  10. Jenny Haines

    What a bunch of dills in them there Adelaide Hills!! Makes me think of “To Kill a Mockingbird.” Where are the Atticus’s when we need them?

  11. Liz45

    I’ve almost finished reading, ‘Raising My Voice’ by Malalai Joya, for the second time. If anyone has any doubt about what’s really happening in Afghanistan, they should read this book. I went to see her in person last week in Sydney – she’s one brave young woman, who refuses to be silenced! She tells it how it really is in her country – includng the war lords, the Russian ‘hangers on’, the Taliban, and the corrupt govt of Karzai – about 60% of those in his parliament should be tried for war crimes – for the horrific abuses of the past decades and also the present. In 2006 Malalai went to see someone high up in the Bush Administration – there were two photos on her walls – both of them known criminals by the people of Afghanistan – they should be in the Haigh with the bloke from the Congo! There’s another who’s been allowed to study at Yale, and several others in the US – known as war criminals by Afghani people – some of them are writing articles for the fundamentalists, who are causing much of the misery in the country!

    We’re just providing another enemy in her country, bringing misery and death to ordinary people. The military is allowing the murders, rapes, torture and jails to continue – it keeps the people living in fear, and while they’re preoccupied with their very survival, who knows what’s being stitched up! Permanent military bases; eyes on the resources etc!

    Sound familiar? Exactly what the US fueled up in Iraq, El Salvador etc

  12. Venise Alstergren

    It beggars belief that in this wide open land The Klu Klux Klan could be re-born. The other week I was Googling some of the weirder religions in Oz. Almost without exception they have come from America, whereas many hard right-wing people come from Europe.

    It’s immaterial to me if these douche bag bits of scum want to exchange pleasantaries (sic), or drink some rot-gut alcohol. What I do mind is their desire to turn the land of Oz into a monumental pig swill.

    Watsa matter youse blokes; waddy talkin’ about kultcha for? Jeeze you wouldna know it if it bit youse in the bum! Betcha youse all wear check shirts. Oiy oiy.

  13. Apathy

    Jenny – he has also been convicted of insurance fraud. No wonder his wife left him, he seems like a complete knob.

  14. shepherdmarilyn

    Of the 1500 Afhgan claims granted in 2009/10, up to 2 July, only 5 were rejected.

    Why is it we are locking them up again?

  15. Dr_Tad

    Australia First are actually fascists, not just another loose far Right Hansonite formation but the real deal. Expect more of this as the major parties give a green light to refugee bashing and more sinister forces see it as an opening to prey on people feeling socially and economically insecure.

  16. Liz45

    @MARILYN – Who knows indeed? It’s a ploy to try and make out that life in Afghanistan is OK. As I suggested, they should take their family members there! Who could make an argument, that it’s OK to go back to a war zone. I read almost on a daily basis about bombings, deaths and other related horrors. Why weren’t those 5 people accepted as ‘genuine’? Relatives of the war lords, Karzai perhaps? Perhaps the bloke who we gave military training to his underlings recently – making millions out of corruption, threats and thieving!

    NATO occupation forces kill three children in northeast Afghanistan:

    Locals said a fourth person was also killed in the incident. According to provincial police chief Brigadier General Khalilullah Ziayee, speaking to the Pajhwok Afghan news agency, a police officer and his three nephews – all children – were killed in the accident.
    http://www.newkerala.com/news/world/fullnews-88599.html

    Just one of todays stories. Similar ones appear daily, but hey, Afghanistan is as safe as houses! No sweat!

  17. JMNO

    From memory, Jim Saleam was also gaoled in WA some years ago for attacks or criminal damage (can’t remember exactly what) which had a racist basis. So he’s got form for this sort of activity.

  18. JM

    @Dr_Tad spot on. And unlike most of the Hansonites, the AFs are not content merely to wave placards around, fill social media pages and the comments section of the tabloids with semi-literate rants and scream about “teh_mooslems” or whichever minority has excited their current paranoia.

    Though very small in number and somewhat impaired in intelligence, AF soldiers have a propensity towards harassment, violence and property damage and in many cases are already well-known to the police. In fact some of their former leading lights are currently languishing in prison. Their current leader has also done time for conspiracy to murder ANC activist Eddie Funde in 1989. Not the sort of folk one wants running loose among the citizens of the Hills, or anywhere else.

    And up until now, the Government in its attempt to hang on to the resentful blue-collar vote, has not yet sent a clear message that hate groups like them are outside the pale of Australian society.

    There’s more here

  19. Venise Alstergren

    DR_TAD: I thought they were fascists. The whole world seems to be turning far right-wing; I’ve been rabbiting on about it for the past two years. If the resentful blue-collar vote is that resentful, perhaps the government should cease trying to win their vote. They probably can’t read anyway, let alone choose who they want to vote for.

    JM: I don’t know if it’s just me but most of the links I click onto come back as dead pages.

  20. Venise Alstergren

    DR_TAD: “”Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    DR_TAD: I thought they were f_a_s_c_i_s_t_s. The whole world seems to be turning far right-wing; I’ve been rabbiting on about it for the past two years. If the resentful blue-collar vote is that resentful, perhaps the government should cease trying to win their vote. They probably can’t read anyway, let alone choose who they want to vote for.””

    JM: I don’t know if it’s just me but most of the links I click onto come back as dead pages.

  21. leone

    This is South Australia, where seemingly normal white Australians kill 12 people and put the bodies in drumsfull of acid. And home of the Truro murders, where 7 women were killed and their bodies hidden – by white Aussie blokes. This is South Australia, where a young Aussie bloke decides to kill three people, probably because he didn’t like them any more. This is South Australia, where the Beaumont children were taken from a beach by an unknown person, never to be seen again. Adelaide has become known as the city of corpses because per capita that city and its environs has recorded more of Australia’s most notorious crimes than any other Australian capital city. And they think a few asylum seekers are a threat to their wives and children? The detainees moight actually bring a bit of sanity to South Australia, they might raise the tone of the place a few notches.

  22. Rena Zurawel

    I think that many people in the community have been victims of the government propaganda. I am not talking about any organised group like a silly party of well organised stirrers and agents provocateurs.
    Far too many honest and reasonable people fell victims of official cliches and BS propaganda like ‘border protection’, ‘sky security’, ‘muslim invasion’ and ‘Sharia Law cutting off the hands’ of innocent thieves.
    I think that more innocent victims are rotting in our system of mandatory detention than a number of handless Muslims walking on the planet.
    There is no point to criticise a Mr. or a Mrs. Merciless Christian. It is the fault of consecutive governments; and it is only the government that can ease tensions within our community by treating migrants according to the laws and human value system.
    It was the Howard government demonising innocent people and their children. It is the current government to re-demonise the people seeking our help and support.
    I can see no sign of any change so far.
    And our lovely Julia may be the Queen of Parliament but she definitely is not the Queen of hearts.
    And I would not even discuss the Opposition because they do behave like agents provocateurs.
    And Tony Abbot – public believer in merciful God. What a joke!
    This planet belongs to all of us. High time we learned how to share it.

  23. MLF

    I do not agree with the sentiments and actions of the group described here. Nor do I agree that South Australian’s should be written off as weirdo murderers (@Leone). What I wanted to say – completely outside the discussion on immigration/asylum/refugee – is what the hell does the government expect to happen when it fails to consult with and educate the community? By their own failings they leave the door wide open for this sort of influence. People are fearful, and yes it may be through ignorance, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are.

  24. Phil Kyson

    How do you lift Australia’s IQ?
    For every refugee that makes it here by boat ship out a Rightwing fu@knut.
    Reverse the brain drain NOW!

  25. shepherdmarilyn

    For heavens’ sake, why the hell should the morons be consulted. We didn’t consult the Afghans and iraqis before we blew their countries off the face of the earth did we?

    We know about refugees here in SA, we have the lingering bad tasted of Woomera and Baxter

  26. nicko_g

    @leone yeah, those South Australian bigots are really all bigoted aren’t they? Murdering right wing sons of bitches.

    Oh, hang on. This article is about the public identification and intimidation of supporters, that include the local mayor, of the detention facility by a right wing group based in NSW. Oh dear, hope they’ve never had any grisly murders…

    Troll somewhere else.

  27. fred

    Skynews’ David Speers interviewed two of the Woodside anti asylum seeker crusaders yesterday and was stunned by their warped and inane arguments- one of thinking Australia’s favourite journalists disbelievingly almost lost for words!

    When will this Government launch a community ediucation program and expose the fearmongering and misinformation about asylum seekers?

  28. harrybelbarry

    The Afghans think the fence is to keep them in , but in S.A its to protect them from white murderers. RED Necks in the hills.

  29. TheTruthHurts

    Remember folks, Labor made this an issue again by rolling out the red carpet to the boaties.

    We’ve now had an all time new record of boatie arrivals and this was all preventable YEARS ago when it was becoming clear that the 2008 softening of the laws were having a serious pull effect on boatpeople.

    What gets me is the absolute ignorance of those on the left to admit there is even a problem. We’ve got a limitation of 13,500 humantarian positions a year and now 50% of them are taken up by people jumping the queue and using criminal people smuggler gangs to get here. Next year we will probably get 10,000 and the year after that our entire quota will be filled by cashed up economic migrants from Indonesia.

    When will the left scream out for those in the disease and poverty stricken camps along the Pakistan border whose spots are now being stolen by the least needy? Shame lefties, shame is all I can say.

  30. MLF

    @Marilyn – your comment is as spectacularly oversimplified as it is fundamentally flawed.

  31. shepherdmarilyn

    No MLF, we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq with bombs and bullets and then deny sanctuary to people armed only with white flags and a small bag of clothing.

  32. rhwombat

    Oi Twoofy! Most people open their mouths to change feet, not glutii. Go bite the other one. Slainte.

  33. Liz45

    @MARILYN – I agree totally. Anyone who’s really interested in why people are arriving here seeking asylum should do some investigating into why they’re leaving.
    TTH – Your constant rubbish about softening the policies is beyond ridiculous. These people are coming from ‘live’ war zones, with horrific death tolls, high unemployment etc. Over 70% of people in Afghanistan have been living on less than $2 per day for several years. Depleted Uranium bombs are now causing horrific birth defects and increased cancers etc.

    The rubbish by Bush and Co re bringing freedom etc to the women of Afghanistan has done the exact opposite. Australia has 1500 troops in this country, and yet, in the name of democracy, women are being raped, murdered, tortured and intimidated while their kids are suffering the same fate.
    Last year when Karzai allowed the legislation to pass giving men the right to rape their wives, what did the NATO troops do? Buggar all! We should be absolutely ashamed of ourselves, and yet all we hear from both Government & Opposition is unquestioning support to the US.
    It’s disgusting!

    Then when these poor people arrive here, we lock them up like criminals/animals!

    I’m amazed by people like you! Amazed and disgusted!
    The Laws were softened in ’08 due to LIBERAL PARTY people sick of the horrors we were imposing on already traumatised people. Any changes introduced by Rudd were agreed to by the Opposition. The reason why more Afghanis are leaving their country is due to what we’re doing to them! Our troops are allowing Karzai to use corruption and terror against his own people, so that they’re too traumatised to know what we’re doing to their country re setting up to steal their resources – just like Iraq!

    I’ve said all along, that if the govt used an education program re telling Australians the real truth about asylum seekers, the lamestream media would’ve lost traction in their racist and lying activities! But Rudd and Gillard have against taken advantage of the lies for their own benefit! Shame on them!

  34. Daniel

    Reminder that THETRUTHHURTS is a literally Hitler.

  35. freecountry

    “Literally”? You mean his real name actually begins with H and ends with R, and he really has a Charlie Chaplin moustache … are you sure?

  36. Fran Barlow

    Venise said:

    [I thought they were f_a_s_c_i_s_t_s. The whole world seems to be turning far right-wing]

    I suspect you miss Dr_tad’s point. The nutbags of Australia First are not merely ignorant xenophobes. The term used by Dr_Tad refers to organised bands of people who use extra-legal coercion to attack marginalised groups or those seen in some way as socially deviant. Self-styled vigilante groups such as Operation Rescue or the K_K_K are obvious examples. Those who went to Cronulla severla summers back would qualify.

    F_as_cis_m is not a political argument or idea. F_as_cis_m is a smack in the mouth for stepping out of line. It’s thuggery with a political or cultural referent, and therefore a lot more dangerous than mere reactionary venting.

  37. MLF

    Yes Fran, agree, and its prime target audience (just like terrorism) are those who are disenchanted, disenfranchised, under-educated, under-valued and basically just pissed off with the world.

    We reap what we sow, so my point (again @Marilyn) is that we better get to sowing some understanding, some compassion and some education – and the government needs to speak and listen to the people, not just throw things like this down their necks.

    Out of interest what do you think the response of locals would be if this facility was being placed in Cremorne NSW, Toorak VIC or Kenmore QLD?

  38. John Marlowe

    And from what are the asylum seekers seeking asylum?
    Are most of these people fleeing civil war and persecution in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka?

    Is not the Australian Government’s culpable for the civil unrest in Iraq and Afghanistan,as it supports US military strategy there?

    Is not the Australian Government’s culpable for turing a blind eye on the Tamil genocide in Sri Lanka and is it now any surprise that Tamils are fleeing to Australia?

    The Australian Government’s role in the UN/UNHCR to help resolve and contain civil war and its consequential refugee emmigration is an absolute failure and now we are copping the consequences.

    The refugee problem is an abject failure of Australian foreign affairs. It has been handballed to home affairs and locals in the Adelaide Hills.

    So far we are approaching 5000 asylum seekers from mainly these three civil ware torn nations. The inflow is averaging 100 a week.

    So what happens when Inverbrackie is full? Edinburgh army base next?

    The Australian Government nor the Coalition have any answers besides finding more detention centres.

    Is it any wonder there is local reaction and questioning?

  39. Elan

    “The detainees moight (SIC….K) actually bring a bit of sanity to South Australia, they might raise the tone of the place a few notches.”

    ……………you want to expand on that ducky??

    I look forward to the ensuing chat…
    ____________________________

    FF might just have done us a favour. They have shone a light on those who oppose the plan (and the Labor Government HAS handled it with hobnail boots!!)- as an ugly and pernicious group.

    The result of this, is that those same people are largely distancing themselves from this free toilet paper. In that endeavour, they are a tad more muted. Thanks FF (handy acronym btw).

    There are a good many people in that area that are supportive and welcoming. Don’t condemn them all.

    ……….and I’ll say it again. I STILL wonder why Labor handled this in the manner they did. It is almost as if they wanted this outcome of mistrust and lack of welcome…..

  40. Elan

    Correction: AF. Sorry FF: the temptation to use those initials was too great!

  41. Elan

    John Marlowe: I agree. We HAVE to look at Cause as well as Effect.

  42. MLF

    And for those who think that harping on about how the refugee situation in Afghanistan is “our” fault, and further think that that point alone is enough to change the hearts and minds of many Australians, you might want to re-read the 2001 report from policy analysts for the US Committee for Refugees. http://www.merip.org/mero/mero092401.html

    Excerpt: “Over the last two weeks, an estimated 15,000 Afghan refugees have fled to Pakistan, and hundreds of thousands more are reportedly on the move within Afghanistan. This latest flight of Afghans from their homes deepens a humanitarian crisis that has troubled the region for more than 20 years. Already, some 2 million Afghan refugees are living in Pakistan and more than 1.4 million in Iran, with an estimated 30,000 in India, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and other countries. Additionally, some 900,000 people are displaced from their homes within Afghanistan. If and when the United States and its allies launch a military campaign against Afghanistan, UN officials estimate that the number of new refugees and displaced could climb past 1 million. From a humanitarian perspective, the recent terrorist attacks and subsequent US threat of military action against Afghanistan could not have come at a worse moment. Even before the current refugee movement, the Pakistani and Iranian governments were showing impatience with the large, intractable refugee populations in their countries. Tajikistan shut its doors to Afghan asylum seekers and drought victims. International aid began to dwindle nearly a decade ago, as “donor fatigue” set in after the Cold War. Although some long-time refugees have been integrated into their host countries, living in cities and working stable jobs, more recent arrivals have been forced to live in squalid conditions, without access to adequate food, water, shelter and sanitation….”

  43. Elan

    …………………………….might you juuuuust entertain the idea that Western ‘liberators’, might..just MIGHT not have helped that situation???
    ____________________

    And I don’t ‘harp’. (Neither would you if you got your hair caught in the strings during your first…..and last lesson on the damned thing!).

  44. shepherdmarilyn

    MLF, so what? we all know what Afghanistan has been like for the past 30 years but reports even today show that Afghanistan is more dangerous since we invaded and occupied the place than it has been for 20 years.

    The problem is that Iran and Pakistan still have massive refugee loads, we don’t help them and we wasted $1 billion over the last year to have precisely 1 in every 300 Afghans denied refugee status.

    There are still today over 2.9 million Afghan refugees, last year through our voluntary re-settlement program we allowed 950 to come here and then bitched and whined about a few thousand others claiming protection.

    Resettlement has nothing to do with frigging protection under the refugee convention, that is purely Ruddock’s invention with the ALP too craven to change it back to how it used to operate.

    It’s all very nice to spend $300 million to import 6,000 people who already have refugee protection in other countries but it is a sick hoax.

  45. MLF

    Hey @Elan, sorry about your harp experience. I don’t ‘harp’ either – but purely because I have no musical talent whatsoever.

    I actually wasn’t referring to your post, which I didn’t have any disagreements with.

    And yes, I entertain lots of things, particularly well-thought through, reasoned arguments. I’m no expert on the issue and as I said in my first post, I didn’t want to address the immigration/asylum/refugee aspects of the story but rather only wanted to suggest that the people complaining might have a point, even if it is one based in fear and ignorance.

    The excerpt above was to merely highlight that saying the current military engagement is responsible for the humanitarian situation isn’t entirely correct, and over-simplified and emotional statements calling people morons for having a point of view, really don’t advance the argument any.

  46. jorge

    @ JIM REIHER – If those are the percentages of asylum seekers who arrive by planes and boats…wow. I guess it all goes to the fact that images of asylum seekers arriving by plane would be met with “???” by most people but boat arrivals stir up images in our minds of Vikings, the Spanish Armada, D-Day…etc. (well, at least for me).

    As for this political party…I know it’s a difficult question to ask (and there are probably many answers), but why do they think the way they do? Plus, they should be happy now as this article gives them fairly good publicity. Governments do not help if they have indeed avoided consulting the local communities.

    http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/

  47. Liz45

    @MLF – Go out an buy “Raising My Voice” by Malalai Joya – she was born a few months after the Russians invaded her country.She says in part,

    “When the Russians finally left, and their puppet regime was overthrown, we faced a vicious civil war, between fundamentalist warlords, followed by the rule of the depraved and medieval Taliban.”
    After the tragic day of 11 September 2001, many in Afghanistan thought that, with the overthrow of the Taliban, they might finally see some light, some justice and progress. But it was not to be. The Afghan people have been betrayed once again, by those who are claiming to help them. More than seven years after the invasion by America and its allies, we are still faced with foreign occupation, and an American-backed government filled with warlords, who are just like the Taliban.”
    “You may be shocked to hear this, because the truth about Afghanistan has been hidden behind a smokescreen of words and images, carefully crafted by the United States and its NATO allies, and repeated without question by the Western media.
    You may have been led to believe, that once the Taliban was driven from power, justice returned to my country…..But it is all a lie, dust in the eyes of the world.”

    She carefully elaborates on the years of such awful violence, that her family were forced to flee – twice! She was democratically elected to Parliament(unlike many who bought or bullied their way there, or were friends of Karzai) but was never allowed to speak out against the rapes, torture and horrific murders. The murderous bastards who’ve been in the country for years, are allowed to commit these atrocities under the eyes of the US and NATO forces. Malalai insists, that instead of just having the war lords and the criminal mujahadeen, they also have the foreign occupiers – making their lives worse than unlivable.

    70% of the population have been forced to live on less than $2 a day. Girls are being kidnapped and either raped, tortured and murdered, or handed over in marriage ‘deals’ with cruel and vicious men. Many women choose to burn themselves to death rather than put up with their horror, but the Western media fills the airwaves with the bs, that life for women is improving – it is not! More ‘dust in the eyes of the world’!

    “The sad fact is, that in Afghanistan, killing a woman is like killing a bird”.
    “Fundamentalists still preach, that a woman should be in her home or in the ground”? (Malalai Joya)
    It should be noted, that of course, there are many wonderful and brave men who are also outraged by these atrocities, but too many of them are jailed, tortured and frequently murdered if they speak out!

    And yet, when women make it to our shores, we aggravate the psyche evolved by either being raped or fear of rape, torture and death. In order to infer that Afghanis should stay home, or it’s safe to return home, our government lies to the Australian people, about the type of environment they believe is OK for these people. It would be unthinkable for similar views to be held about Australian or American women – why is it deemed OK for the women of Afghanistan? Why don’t the Australian govt insist, that the US puppet president ensure, that the criminals in his govt stand trial for past horrific crimes, and ensure, that the justice we boast of in this country, is what we demand for the countries in which we’ve invaded and or occupied.

    Anything less is just lies, and eventually, more people will realise this. How many Afghani women and kids have to die or be tortured while we get off our apathetic backsides?In the meantime, we have a responsibility to ensure, that we don’t damage further, men, women and children who have miraculously escaped. Escaping is punishable by death, either from the war lords the Taliban or fundamentalists. And yet, in spite of the evidence at hand, the Gillard govt is contemplating sending Afghanis back – probably to certain death! There’s lots of evidence to prove what their fate could and probably would be. The same applies to people from Iran, Iraq and Sri Lanka!

  48. shepherdmarilyn

    Gee John Marlowe? 100 people a week. for fucks sake 12,000 people come to Australia every day without this whinging and carping and whining.

  49. shepherdmarilyn

    And Jorge you dork, that we pretend to be scared by boats that are 2,600 km from the nearest point of the mainland shows what morons we really are.

  50. TheTruthHurts

    According to the left the massive decrease in boat arrivals in 2002 had to do with “world factors” and not to do with the Pacific Solution.

    Boat Arrivals went from 5500 a year in 2001 to just 1 single boatperson in 2002 after the introduction of the Pacific Solution.

    Now in late 2001 we had the Afghanistan War. In 2003 we had the Iraq War.

    Between 2002-2008 we had hardly any boat arrivals.

    In 2009 the Sri Lankan War ended and in 2010 the Iraq War was winded down.

    In 2009 and now 2010 we had a record number of boat arrivals.

    Now using the lefties claim that “world factors” have absolutely everything to do with boat arrivals we can only come to one conclusion: Wars cause less refugee’s and ending Wars causes more refugee’s. We need to start more wars to stop the boats according to the left.

    Either that or the Pacific Solution worked.

  51. Liz45

    TTH – Stop being simplistic. Do some other reading! You’re going by the bull shit handed out by the lamestream media. Do some in depth research – give your brain a boost! Read the book by Malalai Joya. What have you read?

  52. Norman Hanscombe

    Let’s be even less “simplistic”. It’s clear from the posters above that there’s a cornucopia of good-will for boat people out there in the community, just waiting to be galvanised. Why not start up petitions wherever you live, demanding the politicians build appropriate temporary centres in YOUR neighbourhood?

    Surely people power would force the politicians to act, and do what their local voters wanted?

  53. Liz45

    Asylum seekers should be allowed to live in the community after health and security checks. In Sweden, children are only ‘detained’ for a matter of hours, and adults several days. We’re the only country that has MANDATORY detention. It’s unnecessary, cruel and unjust, and very very expensive. It costs well over a $1000 each day to detain a person on Christmas Island, as opposed to about $280 per day in Villawood – community housing costs less than that! It’s just ridiculous on all levels!

    If someone can research Sweden and point to horrific jumps in crimes of????please give me the email address. We’re a racist and ugly lot, who allow these people to be treated in a manner we’d be outraged over if Australians were treated in the same manner! It’s disgusting and frustrating! We’ve learnt nothing from the Howard years it would seem! I’m so frustrated, that I just don’t want to stay on this merry go round.

    People power finally objected to Howard/Ruddock/Vanstone’s horrific behaviour. The Federal Govt has had to pay out millions of dollars for their unjust jailing of people, and yet, it still goes on! No wonder Marilyn swears – I don’t know how she keeps going! Listening to all this shit over and over and over, for how many years? 10? 15? or 20?

    I’m going to bed – I’m buggared! It’s White Ribbon Day already!

  54. shepherdmarilyn

    What the hell is the morality involved with not helping people who need it? I listened to some of the Germanic arseholes in the meeting tonight – that region was settled by German and Silesian refugees – what bastards and morons.

    And Norman you jerk, we have been doing that for a decade. It is the idiotic governments that keep wasting money locking people up.

  55. MLF

    @Liz45 – I am in my late 30s, mother of two young children, working full time, studying full time for a degree in political science and international relations, and I have been volunteering for Amnesty International since I was 17. So, with respect, I don’t need the lecture.

    If you had read my posts you will see I purposely did not comment on the immigration/asylum/refugee issue as such. And I will state yet again, calling people names is not the way to go about changing their hearts and minds on this issue. Call the government names, for sure, I’ll join you if its appropriate, but you won’t change people by lecturing at them, calling them biggots and apathetic, and by thinking that your point of view is the only valid point of view and that everyone else is a lesser person. Especially when, in the cases of centres being built in neighbourhoods without consultation, many Australians are feeling that their own government isn’t doing a great job of looking after them so why should they move over for someone else. Before you jump up & down at me again, this is not my view, but it is the view of many Australians doing it very tough with little support and little chance to better their own situation. Its just a fact.

    For what its worth I think Sarah Hanson-Young did a good job in the election campaign of removing alot of the anger & accusatory language and simply talking the facts in a non-emotional and un-confronting way.

  56. Norman Hanscombe

    What you clearly do NOT understand is that many people see little point in making emotive decisions which can have negative consequences for their homeland, but wil have very little effect on the international problems they dream of solving. As for those who make racist attacks on Germans, youdo realise WW II is over? The double standards of he sort found in the post above suggests the ranters have VERY serious emotive blinker problems, and explains their inability to respond rationally to any statement which isn’t part of their sacred beliefs.

    The stress of being confronted by people who don’t blindly follow the Tooth Fairy Brigade’s (genuinely held) mantras seems to affect some ‘progressive’ memories. Despite the coven members’ repeated assertions that they are caucused to not mention (in good Harry Potter style?) someone’s name again, they keep doing it. Are they masochists, or simply tropistic moths, drawn to a light which is beyond their ken? They certainly miss irony. Perhaps I should have made it clearer I was talking about making MEANINGFUL efforts, about developing EFFECTIVE tactics? Or is that asking too much of blinded True Believers?

    It’s not enough to rant about allegedly “idiotic governments”. This is especially counter-productive since it tells the public that in the eyes of these ersatz progressives, the despised voters foolishly continue to elect the wrong parliamentarians — i.e. parliamentarians who don’t share the Progressive Elect’s all-seeing ‘wisdom’.

    [Moderator: this comment has been edited slightly. Don’t make personal jibes against other commentators, please]

  57. Norman Hanscombe

    P.S. To avoid any misunderstding,the dear lady to whom I referred was marilyn not MLF, whose sexcellent advice is couched in a more tactful manner than mine sometimes is.

  58. Venise Alstergren

    THETRUTHURTS: “”now 50% of them are taken up by people jumping the queue and using criminal people smuggler gangs to get here. Next year we will probably get 10,000 and the year after that our entire quota will be filled by cashed up economic migrants from Indonesia.””

    Perhaps we so-called lefties think with our heads-not our guts; which is what you enthusiastic ‘rights’. No! Make that ‘rites’ run on. It seems to be a mechanical rite of passage with you lot to dump what brains you have, overboard in an effort to make yourselves look stupid.

    1) Please tell me; where is the queue? No, you come on. Just tell me where it is. But you can’t. It’s just another sweeping assertion isn’t it?

    2) If you were caught up in a war, you would wish to flee to somewhere safe, WOULD YOU NOT? Or are you telling me that once in Indonesia say, and you had enough money to pay for an illegal passage to Oz, you wouldn’t avail yourself of the services of a people smuggler? And my name is Holly Golightly. The greenery in within a 16k radius would be flattened by your footprints in search for the right people smuggler.

    3) In an effort to bolster what fails to be your argument you drop a couple of your madder guesses. It’s going to be 10,000 (what) next year. And the following year the cashed up middle-class of Indonesia, in some form of mass transit. And so my fearful clod. Do some travelling yourself; you might discover how terrific other people can be.

    I’d advise you not to go to those Asian countries like Bali, or Thailand. They are appalling. When walking down Sukumvit -the main drag in Bangkok, most especially in the night club area. You will discover great big Oz blokes with beer guts like Falstaff-Sorry, you probably don’t know Shakespeare. Let me think ummm. Beer guts like a beer barrel. Each man will be with a tiny Thai lady who wouldn’t even be the size of one of their legs.

    It’s what I call the great Oztriliun ugliness, and people like you should try to stop the spread of it. Because you give the rest of us a terrible name.

  59. Venise Alstergren

    FRAN BARLOW: No, I don’t think I misunderstood Dr_Tad at all. My first comment on this subject brought in the Klu Klux Klan, and having studied the history of WWII at uni I’d like to think I’ve learned what f_a_s_c_i_s_m is.

    Also, when I was doing a little light research into our imported from America far right-wing fundamentalist religions which seem to flourish in virgin Oz soil, I also came across some of our madder political groups-ditto, mainly derived from the USA. One of them being the above mentioned Australia First Party. Who, if they aren’t the full on f_a_s_c_i_s_t_s of Hitlerian colour, then my name, as I mentioned to the cretin Thetruthurts (above) is Holly Golightly.

    I like you a lot Fran, but please don’t assume I’m a total nitwit. 🙂

  60. Fran Barlow

    Venise

    [No, I don’t think I misunderstood Dr_Tad at all {…} I like you a lot Fran, but please don’t assume I’m a total nitwit. ]

    I made no such inference, and it is easy to misunderstand things without being a total nitwit. Dr_Tad used the term in a way that is particular to the far left, and specifically, the Trotskyist movement, of which I was a part for much of my political life. Your remarks didn’t indicate that you’d picked up on that point.

    Failure to do so would say nothing at all about your intelligence, and I’m sorry if you concluded that I was slighting you.

  61. Norman Hanscombe

    Venise Alstergren:
    1) you clearly don’t appreciate the metaphorical aspects of (even basic) English. Would it be easier for you to understand the process if you realised that Australia isn’t yet agreeing (as some might wish?) to accept open access to our shores, so it sets quotas. There are many thousands sitting in overseas camps who’d wish to enjoy the undoubted benefits of being selected to come to Australia; but those who jump the waiting list by buying a passage here and are accepted, reduce the quota available for those waiting in the camps.
    I doubt anyone who misses out because others ‘jumped’ the metaphorical queue, would appreciate your disingenuous, point-scoring word games. You accuse others of “sweeping assertions”, while you concentrate on sweeping embarrassing counter-arguments UNDER the carpet — which is, I’d suggest, a far more pernicious practice.

    2) I’m sure most of us, if “caught up in a war, –would wish to flee to somewhere safe“; but that’s hardly an argument that we’re bound to accept any who reach here, especially since even if we opened our doors completely, while it could destroy our way of life, it couldn’t solve the international problems facing the planet. YOU might be prepared to accept the consequences of an open door policy, but that doesn’t mean you can expect others to want to share in your ‘noble’ sacrifice.

    3) It’s ironic that you recommend those who don’t accept your sacred mantras ought to travel; especially since travelling hasn’t helped those like yourself who are so emotively attached to their personal sacred shibboleths they can’t see the planet for the palm trees. Either way, if anyone was to take up your quaint suggestion, It’s disappointed to find you touting for visits to Thai nightclubs. On the other hand, I would be pleased to hear that YOU went there with a Latter Day Falstaff, because clearly you’d benefit from spending more time with someone possessing his sense of humour?

    On your response to another poster, venise, no one thinks you’re a TOTAL nitwit, merely blinded at times by your GENUINE emotive propensities; so don’t you worry about that, and concentrate instead on trying to develop the nuances in thinking which might have saved you from making the ‘nitwit’ comment. It woud be in your own best interests to make the effort.

  62. Phil Kyson

    No matter the tone of the debate on asylum seekers, the only winners are the people whom manage to arrive, get assessed, remain and increasingly survive the process. To those who traverse the journey, congratulations! Enjoy our version of life and freedom. I sincerely hope the trip wasn’t too tragic or mentally traumatic. Please let us know, was it worth it? If it wasn’t tell us why so we can relay your experience to those who wish to follow. You never know it might add some enlightenment to the debate.
    I would also like to acknowledge the Australians who make their living from what must be a difficult job in this sector. I hope you’re getting paid enough to enjoy your life and freedom as well.

  63. Venise Alstergren

    FRAN BARLOW: Bear with me, please. It’s been a hard year.

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: Sorry luv. I’ve been down your tired old path. And it ain’t worth the effort. Tooraloora

  64. shepherdmarilyn

    Norman, do you seriously think it is rational to claim that there are “quotas” for refugee applicants? This qon from senate estimates should set your feeble little mind at reat. /see the bit where is says there are no allocations? That is because we cannot say who will arrive and when.

    QUESTION TAKEN ON NOTICE
    SUPPLEMENTARY BUDGET ESTIMATES HEARING: 20 OCTOBER 2009
    IMMIGRATION AND CITIZENSHIP PORTFOLIO
    (80) Program 2.1: Refugee and Humanitarian Assistance
    Senator Fierravanti-Wells asked:
    In relation to the number of places allocated to non-UNHCR-registered asylum
    seekers, please provide a breakdown including:
    a. the number of places allocated to unauthorised arrivals by boat;
    b. the number of places allocated to unauthorised arrivals by air;
    c. the number of places allocated to persons who had arrived on a valid visa and
    then sought asylum;
    d. the number of places allocated to over-stayers who subsequently claimed
    asylum.
    Answer:
    Allocations, targets, or limits are not made in relation to Protection visas for asylum
    seekers. If all the criteria for a Protection visa are met, the visa will be granted and no
    distinction within the Program is made regarding the lawful status or arrival means of
    the applicant.
    Visas granted to asylum seekers in Australia are counted towards the Special
    Humanitarian component of the Humanitarian Program. In 2008–09, 2497
    humanitarian visas were granted to persons in Australia which were counted toward
    the overall humanitarian program outcome of 13 507 visas.

    And even then more visas were granted to those who flew here than those forced to sail….

    QUESTION TAKEN ON NOTICE
    BUDGET ESTIMATES HEARING: 26 MAY 2010
    IMMIGRATION AND CITIZENSHIP PORTFOLIO
    (46) Program 2.1: Refugee and Humanitarian Assistance
    Senator Parry (L&C 77) asked:
    How many places in the humanitarian and refugee program have been provided to
    onshore asylum claims, including air arrivals and those who have arrived
    unauthorised by boat? Can we have a breakdown of those figures?
    Answer:
    To 31 May 2010, 4286 visas had been granted under the onshore component of the
    2009–10 Humanitarian Program. These included:
    • 2056 Protection visas granted to Irregular Maritime Arrivals (IMAs)
    • 2208 Protection visas granted to non-IMAs
    • 14 visas granted under Ministerial Intervention powers
    • 8 Program-countable1 Resolution of Status visas.
    1 Only visas granted to persons who have not previously held a Humanitarian
    Program visa are counted against the Program, for example children born to
    Temporary Protection visa holders who are later included in their Resolution of
    Status visa application.
    So why aren’t you whining endlessly about the 2208 people who were granted protection after flying here.

  65. shepherdmarilyn

    Of course the problem we have now is that the SHP is voluntary and we use it to seek to deny people their rights under obligations under the law.

  66. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE “”. Either way, if anyone was to take up your quaint suggestion, It’s disappointed to find you touting for visits to Thai nightclubs. On the other hand, I would be pleased to hear””

    One minor point I failed to pick up before…..The next time you accuse me of being a night club tout I shall seek legal advice.

  67. Liz45

    @VENISE – NORMAN HANSCOMBE: Sorry luv. I’ve been down your tired old path. And it ain’t worth the effort. Tooraloora

    Thanks for reminding me what an ace person you are. I’m going to use these two sentences in relations to Norman!
    What’s the story about the “night club tout”? I’m intrigued!

    @MLF – I don’t give a hoot whether you’re a relative of Nelson Mandela or Mother Therese, if you look at this article you’ll find that my comments were perhaps more relevant than yours. I’ve heard some of the worst racists in this country preface their comments with ‘ my sister’s best friends brother in law is a black? person’? Or some such other pathetic and abhorent comment.

    Would you like to hear about my CV? As a woman raised in a catholic school, family and misogynist catholic environment, I was physically abused by a nun, on a regular basis; one of my sisters was sexually abused by a priest and one of my brothers was sexually abused at a catholic boys only college. I was abused by my sister’s fiance, a radiographer, a Urologist specialist. (how am I going, qualified yet?) I’ve been involved in a voluntary capacity with women suffering from permanet preventable work related injuries; spoken to sufferers from around the country for at least 9 yrs, and done it all without any monetary support. Oh yes, I was in a domestic violence situation for over 20 yrs? What else would you like to know? Oh yes, I’m now involved once again, with a women’s health centre in my area, and this too I do on a regular basis!

    Today, I was at a well known retail outlet handing out white ribbons to the public – tomorrow I’m doing the same thing about 30 minutes from my home, and tomorrow evening I’m going to a public awareness ‘celebration’ of awareness re domestic violence. Oh yes, I forgot to mention, that I have 3 adult sons and 6 grand kids!

    If you come on one of these sites and put forward views, that you later assert of belonging to someone else, then you should say so at the beginning of your post. Otherwise, if you put those views forward under your own ‘name’ that’s how people will respond to them.

    I know that many people out there are racist. I don’t feel I have to put forward their views under my name and then plead ‘I was misunderstood’ when people respond as thought they are your views.

    When it comes to racism, sexism and ageism, I don’t have to justify my strong views. I don’t apolise for them either. I’m not trying to lecture those people who are acting, in my view, in a very ignorant, racist and unjust manner. I don’t have to justify that stance, as I don’t have to defend any man who abuses a woman – I don’t have to plead their mitigating circumstances, that’s the role of a defence lawyer. The same stance belongs in this instance.!

    I don’t have to accept, in any way shape or form, the revolting narrow minded and revolting people who are (i) too damned lazy to do some research and then put forward some facts, or (2) those people who, by their grotty attitude to asylum seekers are just projecting the unjust and criminal views of the grotty authority that these people flee. In shorts, I’m not an appeaser. I don’t have to apply any ‘soft’ attitudes to hard lined racists and abusers of International Law!

  68. MLF

    No Liz45, you’re right, you don’t have to accept anything or anyone other than you’re own views and narrow minded opinions allow. Congratulations – you’ve just validated the argument of all those people who you’re fighting against. Well done, you should be very satisfied.

    As for what you think of me – I could hardly care less and read less than a third of what you posted above. You have failed to read my posts properly and you have attacked me regardless. You are offensive and arrogant and I am completely over posting here any longer.

    No doubt you will find in your life lots of people who do the same thing when you treat them with such disrespect. Good luck getting anywhere in your apparent goal. You are going to need it. Goodbye.

  69. Liz45

    @MLF – I’m no expert on the issue This is what you said! I’ve read more about this than you, and been an activist for human rights before you were born. I’m sick of the current debate, as very little of it is based on fact. By your own admission, you’re no expert, so before you cast me into a bigot by not yielding to accept more unjust, untrue and illegal statements you should ask yourself, what information do I have?

    There’s no excuse for people not being informed, but reading lamestream media won’t do it. Do you read Marilyn’s posts? She’s informed and doesn’t bother thinking of contrary views based on a zenophobic premise. No one expects people who fight for a cause to yield to other views that are just based on falsehoods – in this case by the media, who push the line of the White House, Britain and The Lodge etc. They’re lying and playing games with peoples’ lives – there’s no middle ground here. If it’s just a debate like being at Uni or high school, pick another subject, this one affects human beings. Nobody expects Mick Dodson to entertain other views re the removal of the Racial Discrimination Act; the same applies to this topic. People are dying in Afghanistan at our hands while you want to discuss the views of “others” against what Laws, the Australia govt has committed themselves to abide by. We are propping up a govt (Afghanistan)that is recognised as being corrupt, that has a war criminal as Deputy President, and allows the civilians to be terrorised, while they skim off the monies from the rest of the world and get rich.

    2010 has been recognised as the most violent to date in Afghanistan. Thousands are homeless, millions have fled to neighbouring countries; a miniscule end up here and we promptly throw them in the slammer like animals; the govt threatens to send them home, while they warn people against going there as it’s “very dangerous” and people want hypothetical discussions based on the ignorance and ingrained racism of a few, who aren’t indigenous people of the country anyway????

    Most frustrating! This nonsense has been going on without much of a break for over 10 yrs – since Tampa, but beyond that also! It’s frustration and plain anger these days!

  70. Norman Hanscombe

    It’s sad to see how life has left some so damaged they’re completely unable to address issues without drifting off into irrelevant rambling reminiscences about the misfortunes they (or sometimes even their accident prone families) have allegedly suffered. I acknowledge that it may have some cathartic value for them; but surely it’s not the most effective option open to them?

    On the other hand, even those whose life may have been less traumatic can sometimes let their emotive ‘certainties’ blind them to anything not congruent with their personal sacred ideologies. I realise, for example, that venise’s grasp of irony is rusty. Were she around at the time, she might well have been numbered among those who thought Swift’s “Modest Proposal” was an example of economic rationalism? Given her narrow literal treatment of language, one fears she could even deem “The X Files” to be a documentary.

    On the other hand, venise does show sufficient good sense to avoid responding relevantly to others’ posts, and instead takes the quaint approach of ‘threatening’ legal action. Ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo!!!!!!!!! Isn’t that frightening? Fortunately, should venise decide to throw her money into the legal world, he/she/they who advise her will be better at understanding the English language than “She who must be dismayed” seems to be.

  71. Norman Hanscombe

    Only just noticed you while deleting emails which arrived while I was away, Marilyn,or I’d have responded before. Perhaps by some standards my mind isn’t what it could be; but that would NOT be by comparing it with someone like you whose sad fixations render them emotively incapable of distinguishing between literal and metaphorical use of the English language.
    No matter how many words you ‘read’, Marilyn, until you actually have a far better grasp of how language works you’ll continue tossing non sequiturs around withall the gay abandon lollies were thrown at old-time Greek Weddings.

    Good luck with ANY endeavour to work out the valuable role non-literal language can play for those proficient in English.

  72. Venise Alstergren

    “””Venise Alstergren
    Posted Friday, 26 November 2010 at 7:38 pm | Permalink
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    LIZ: It was about part of my reply to a #r_a_c_i_s_t # nerd ‘THE TRUTH HURTS’. I told him travel broadens the mind, but on no account to go to…

    “”I’d advise you not to go to those Asian countries like Bali, or Thailand. They are appalling. When walking down Sukumvit -the main drag in Bangkok, most especially in the night club area. You will discover great big Oz blokes with beer guts like Falstaff-Sorry, you probably don’t know Shakespeare. Let me think ummm. Beer guts like a beer barrel. Each man will be with a tiny Thai lady who wouldn’t even be the size of one of their legs.””

    (…to see how ghastly the great Oz male can be-the kind that walk on their knuckles. Being the implication)

    To which our intrepid hero Norman Hanscombe wrote one of his blah blah blah comments, telling me what a wonderful person I am. Ha ha! As I have heard it all before, I told him to bug off. Then I re-read his spiel to find the following..

    “”NORMAN HANSCOMBE “”. Either way, if anyone was to take up your quaint suggestion, It’s disappointed to find you touting for visits to Thai nightclubs. On the other hand, I would be pleased to hear”“”“

    To which I took umbrage and said…”“One minor point I failed to pick up before…..The next time you accuse me of being a night club tout I shall seek legal advice.”“

    Which is about the strength of it. Sorry I’ve only just read your comment, I’ve been flat out like the proverbial lizard drinking.

    Love

    Me””””

    PS It’s the old moderation waltz going on here.

  73. Norman Hanscombe

    venise, IF you have some deep psychological need to repeat yourself (especially when it’s hardly on topic) why not twitter like a pair of lost lovebirds privately, leaving sites to others who are capable of analysing arguments, and aren’t (for example) desperately in need of cathartic release?

    In that way you wouldn’t need to complain about any well-deserved censoring or similar problems. Always assuming, of course, that whinging isn’t the only exciting part of your lives?

  74. Norman Hanscombe

    venise, this could only apply IF there was something warranting it; but since it involves no more than you coming out with such a zany suggestion as that, it’s not even worth a topper.

    Besides, if I respect Bob Hope’s WW II Doctrine re toppers, it’s inappropriate to say any more.

  75. Liz45

    @VENISE – You’ve been relegated to all lower case mate! What have you done to deserve that? This is part of the patriarchy dishing out relevant punishment! I assume you’re suitably chastised and feel humbled and remorseful?? Of course!LoL

    Been to vote? Who’s to win do you think?

    Norman should take note – I’ve been involved in WRD activism and celebration of the new awareness in my area re this important day. I’ve been on two stalls and had fun – some good speeches last night and information sharing by some great men who are really committed to this cause – leave Norman lagging sadly behind – a dinosaur really? He just can’t help himself can he? He thinks that by ticking women off re their english appreciation he’s doing us a favour – he just can’t see that he’s only reinforcing the sort of behaviour that women like you and I had to leave? Oh well, as Mick Dodson said once – ‘we just have to leave them behind’ – and move on!

    He probably is jealous! Us “lovebirds” shall just smile and ignore! I intend to! Another Mick Dodson comment “not worth the bloody effort” ? He was responding to Howard’s behaviour at the Opera House re indigenous people!

    PS – Has Norman actually alerted himself to the subject? Talk about the pot and the kettle!It could be worse – he could (still)be a school teacher or Uni lecturer???yawn! yawn!

  76. Norman Hanscombe

    Out of politeness, LIZ, I guess I should address ALL the substantive issues you’ve raised. Having done that, it’s bye for now.

    P.S. If I might offer a suggestion, dear lady, you could consider carrying out your oft-promised threat to NOT comment on those whose contributions are beyond your ken, so that you won’t be judged a barbie.

    P.P.S. The use of lower case in the previous paragraph should NOT be imagined to have ANY relevant significance — even by the Hyper-emotive Hypochondriac Obfuscators who go to water when faced with challenges to any of their sacred beliefs.

  77. Liz45

    @norman – be a good boy, clean your teeth and go to bed!

  78. Norman Hanscombe

    Congrats, Liz, at last you’ve managed to get your teeth into a proposal which is expressed coherently. Trivial, irrelevant, even odd; but we mustn’t be to demanding? Instead let’s all hope these may be your first tottering steps towards analysing your emotive sacred truths.

    PS Have you thought further about the coven’s frequently procaimed but yet to be executed plan to not respond to posters’ comments which apparently make it impossible for you think in non-motive terms? Even though such a course might be a relatively small step for mankind, I realise it constitutes an enormous leap into the scary dark for coven members. Still, given your predicament, surely it’s worth a try?

  79. Venise Alstergren

    Poor old Norman. You would #m_a_s_t_u_r_b_a_t_e# on a bed of cow dung for a bit of attention. Have you ever written a mature comment using research, reason and linguistic clarity-a comment devoid of ad hominem attacks?

    Haven’t you noticed; the only people who read you are the ones you’ve insulted?

    Poor, poor Norman!

  80. Norman Hanscombe

    What clever repartee, venise — by your standards anyway. I am old and, by your yuppie standards, poor as well, young lady; but fortunately I’m a tad less linguistically limited, emotively blinded, and bereft of analysis than those like you who apparently can’t understand the arguments which have been presented, and don’t know how to go about ‘refuting’ what’s been said except via irrelevant childish puerile responses.

    I note that when you think you have a killer argument, venise, you tend to overdo it. Why else, in such a brief emotive outburst, would you havefelt it necessaryto use“poor “ three times?

    But in case you can’t absorb material whih hasn’t been repeated several times, dear girl:

    “PS Have you thought further about the coven’s frequently procaimed but yet to be executed plan to not respond to posters’ comments which apparently make it impossible for you think in non-motive terms? Even though such a course might be a relatively small step for mankind, I realise it constitutes an enormous leap into the scary dark for coven members. Still, given your predicament, surely it’s worth a try?”

  81. Liz45

    @VENISE – Many years ago, my nephew(about 2, and very cute) used to throw himself down on the ground if he didn’t get his own way. He was only a pint sized little kid, but he could really put on a turn. My sister had tried a variety of responses and finally decided to ignore him – if we were out together, she’d walk away while I kept a close eye on him to make sure he didn’t hurt himself or run away etc. Norman reminds me of him – he’s a little boy who only wants attention, and will resort to ????in order to get it! He probably will never grow up! Sad isn’t he?

    (Incidentally, there’s a good article in today’s Sun Herald about the family where two of the daughters were sexually abused by a priest. It’s a double page from the parent’s perspective with a separate article about Cardinal Pell’s alleged shameful role in his dealings with the parents. The mother wrote a book about it called, ‘Hell on the way to Heaven’? Should be available at a good book store. You might be interested. I’m going to see if my library has it – if not, I’ll buy it! – after Christmas???)

  82. Norman Hanscombe

    LIZ, since clearly you’re still in desperate need of help:
    1. Accept the coven’s own oft-repeated (though never carried out) advice to itself.
    2. Google (or if you feel daring, consult a book?) ‘tropism’ my dear little moth — or would you prefer butterfly?

    If this doesn’t work, please try a tad harder to lift your criticisms (sic) above the silly little schoolgirl levels you seem to prefer. You mightn’t succeed, but it might be character-building for you to make the effort?

    Good luck with ANY self-improvement goal ou tackle — you’ll need it.

  83. Phil Kyson

    Norman, Liz and Venise, can you get a room? The three of you added together wouldn’t make a life, so go find one each for yourselves, give us a break.
    You wouldn’t be a schizo having a conversation with yourself, would you? If so, stop not taking your meds, please.
    Changing Australia as a destination would be easy if we could get copies of your conversations to the refugees before leaving.

  84. Norman Hanscombe

    Phil you’re absolutely correct. I’ve had no luck getting them to adopt their own of-repeated statements they’d stop taking the bait, but I shall accede to your reasonable request, regardless of what they do. Touch wood.

  85. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: You asked why I wrote the word ‘poor’ thrice. Gee you ask some easy questions.

    Because you are thrice cursed by fate. You show:-

    1) Poverty of spirit

    2) Poverty of intellect

    3) Poverty of humour

    So I counted up the result and it came to three.

    Next?

  86. Venise Alstergren

    “”If so, stop not taking your meds, please.””

    PHIL KYSON: I thought ‘meds’ were a type of tampon? I don’t take kindly to men discussing my toilet products.

    I notice you didn’t weigh in with the subject of Norman’s lavatory paper. Why not? I suspect a bit of sexism here.

    So do me a tiny and get #f_u_c_k_e_d#

  87. Liz45

    @VENISE – Go after ’em! I’m with you!

    Phil didn’t weigh in with the subject at all? Amazing aren’t they?
    I’ve just had another check! Phil is nowhere to be seen! Why is that?

  88. Phil Kyson

    Have another look girls
    Posted Thursday, 25 November 2010 at 2:18 pm

  89. Venise Alstergren

    PHIL KYSON: How dare you refer to adult women as ‘girls’. Nothing could illustrate your sexism more accurately than your patronising use of this Americanism.

    Oh well, boys will be boys; will they not?

  90. Norman Hanscombe

    What have you done, Phil? You ‘daring’ to suggest to the feminasties that they show moderation is like waving a red rag at a cow. Only kindly old gentle men like me can be guaranteed to comply with such a reasonable request. Never forget that female chauvinist sows on the rampage can make a charging herd of wounded water buffalos look like pussy cats.

    I trust I didn’t use genderist language in the last paragraph? If I did, in future (in the spirit of compromise, of course) perhaps we hould refer to them as dare ladies not dear ladies; or would it be dare laddies? It’s so awfully difficult to please them when no one knows what they really want.

  91. Liz45

    @PHIL – I stand corrected. It wasn’t related to the topic though was it? What did you contribute? And then you went away and did nought, but came back just to be a smart arse? “girls”? Obviously you didn’t get involved in White Ribbon Day on the 25th? You were probably with your mate Norman, harassing some women somewhere. He’s a dinosaur, and there’s no hope for him. He’s the sort of bloke who’s a house arsehole and street ‘angel’? He gets away with it here!!!!

    Why do you hate women Norman? Why don’t you go and see a counsellor and do women a big favour by removing yourself. You never contribute anything to any debate, you just sit there, in the ‘dark’ like a cockroach, quietly waiting for some ‘movement’ and out you come!

    Most adults who feel OK in their own skin don’t go out of their way looking for someone to pounce on – but you do? Guilty conscience? And why don’t you pounce on men? Surely every bloke on these sites don’t think like you, do they? You only pick on women. You’re what’s known as a serial quiet abuser – nasty type!

  92. Norman Hanscombe

    Liz, you talk so frequently about your problem as a serial abusee that it’s easy for someone as understanding as I am, to empathise with your obviously serious problems; but you really must try to not project your thoughts onto others. Not all families are as dysfunctional as the ones which you say moulded you. It’s sad to arrive home from time spent with happy normal human beings and see your distressing situation being raised again; but you really do need to start the process of overcoming the effects of your background traumas, beginning with not projecting what apparently happened to you onto other less-traumatised families.

    I have to say, Liz, that I don’t “hate women”, not even those who like your coven make such quaint half-hearted [or should I say half-headed?] attacks on me. I merely feel sorry for them. Perhaps this was because I had the good fortune to grow up among intelligent mature women (and even men) who in many cases were far too intelligent to be emotionally destroyed by the fact that their worlds weren’t perfect.

    If Phil is looking upon helping you as a “Mission Impossible” by now, who could blame him?

  93. Venise Alstergren

    “”It’s sad to arrive home from time spent with happy normal human beings and see your distressing situation being raised again;””

    Well done Norman; ’tis the nastiest line in the written media I’ve seen outside of Andrew Bolt’s efforts at the Hun.

    Please ABNORMAL HANSCOMBE, plurse Abe, do instruct the readers at Crikey what it is, precisely, that constitutes “happy normal human beings” and, at the same time, put that deviant female, LIZ, on track to achieve HNHB…ship.

  94. Liz45

    @VENISE – Indeed! He’s so ingrained with his own importance, that he is blind to anything else. He insists on his intelligence and always mixing with others as superior to himself, but won’t admit that he’s incapable of addressing the issue; he gets his kicks by honing in on one or two people, usually women, and fills these posts with his (obvious) superior analysis of our defects – never uttered one positive or constructive thought to any topic on Crikey! Not one! Just like Andrew Bolt – he wouldn’t allow something as trivial as fact interfere with his incessant rants – I recall his diatribe re Lowetji O’Donoghue, who has more intelligence, compassion and life skills in her little finger than AB has in his whole body! No doubt Norman would be a fan(of AB that is?)

    Makes me wonder why he wastes his obvious precious and valuable time here!

  95. Norman Hanscombe

    Almost overlooked this one. Apologiesfo not responding as soon as I was back.

    Ladies, ladies, ladies, why are you still making these childish, genderist attacks? Have you no shame? Evolution may have short-changed you, but that’s no reason to drag in defenceless dinosaurs. On the other hand, were one to adopt your evolutionary theme, the hysterical coven’s incumbents might well be compared with highly evolved variations of the bird flu virus. No intelligent idea of what you’re doing, but harmless to all those immune to your inane hyper-hysteria?

    Still, you bring back memories of the 60s lyrics, “When will they ever learn?” Thank God we didn’t need to rely on emotively-obsessed ersatz “warriors” like you in those days, or conservative forces would have had a field day.

  96. Venise Alstergren

    NH: Your desire to always have the last word makes me suspect you are an old lady.

    I dare say you lack any experience of live theatre?

    A class act is knowing how much an audience can take before becoming bored.

    You have absolutely no sense of the absurd.

    Poor, poor poor old Norman.

    Come on now; have the last word. Haven’t you had the nouse to realise the length of time between comments is getting greater?

  97. Norman Hanscombe

    Sadly, Dear Lassie (with apologies toa well-known border collie) the gaps between your inane contributions are never long enough.

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