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Federal

Apr 1, 2010

Bob Carr: Why our cities will really choke with population growth

The population debate is not about multiculturalism, says former NSW premier Bob Carr: it's about how adding millions of people to our nation’s population will affect the environment, water reserves, economy, infrastructure and quality of life.

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The debate is not about immigration and its benefits. We all believe in them — Australia is a migrant nation. The debate is not about multiculturalism and it’s not about the source of migrants. The debate is about whether immigration should be running at very high levels. It’s about whether we end up with a population of 36 million in 2050 in contrast to the previous expectation of 28.5 million.

There are strong economic arguments against this immigration surge. Immigration worsens skills shortages. The tradesman who’s recruited for a specific job arrives with his family. Immigration adds more to the demand for labour than it contributes to the supply. The Productivity Commission Research Report (2005) The Economic Implications of an Ageing Australia made clear migration does not reverse the ageing of the population.

Bob Birrell has pointed out you would have to run immigration at very high levels for a very long time to have the slightest effect on population aging. The population is aging in Australia and just about everywhere else. Get used to it. Nurture older workers instead of driving them out of the workforce the moment they turn 55. High immigration is not the solution.

There have been very silly comments about immigration and infrastructure. I don’t know of any period in the nation’s history when people said that infrastructure had kept pace with population growth. It can’t. The worst gap was in the 1950s when the roads of new suburbs were unpaved and Gough Whitlam’s children had to travel from Cronulla to the city to go to high school and people had to wait years for a PMG-delivered telephone connection and Queensland was an education slum, etc. We will never see that level of under-servicing again.

Federal and state governments struggle to keep pace. But struggle they always will. Increase the intake and the infrastructure gap will be more acute. South-east Queensland makes the point.

In January one academic on the 7:30 Report said that we need a new federal authority to take responsibility for all planning. This, he declared, was the answer. Once we have it we can stick to high immigration. Really? As if shifting responsibility to another level of government would dispose of all the arguments over densities, sprawl, social equity, environmental assessment, design and sustainability.

Actually Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide (I don’t know enough to comment on Brisbane and Perth) already have very sound, environmentally sensitive metropolitan plans. Among other things they identify transport corridors and areas around rail stations or transport hubs as locations for higher density development. So they are public transport-based.

They work to limit urban sprawl. Sydney has been most successful at this, achieving the highest percentage of dwellings in high and medium density. It has also got the highest percentage of the population using public transport.

But our cities will be more congested with 36 million, no matter how much goes into public transport. The arguments over sprawl and higher densities will be more intense. There will be environmental loss and a loss in quality of life: the beaches choked, the adjacent national parks degraded by force of numbers, the congestion of peak hour more intense (there is no public transport system anywhere in the world that avoids peak hour congestion). The cities will work. They will be different cities and it would be a brave person who would promise they’d offer a better quality of life.

Yet I’m far more worried about water — that is, about Australia’s erratic rainfall as a constraint on the over-ambitious population growth we seem locked into.

The business lobby won’t acknowledge any of this; they are focused on the total size of the economy, a crude measure. They don’t look at GDP growth per head. Increasing productivity is going to be harder, not easier, if this runaway immigration continues. And business should stop imagining it can have lower corporate tax rates and high immigration. High immigration mandates higher government outlays, and therefore higher taxation.

You can’t add millions to the nation’s population and expect a lower tax regime.

Public opinion has moved — is moving — and I don’t think the high growth option will be entertained politically, by either side.

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257 comments

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257 thoughts on “Bob Carr: Why our cities will really choke with population growth

  1. Michael

    Wow!

    All this from undoubtedly the worst, most incompetent, most ineffective politician to set foot in any Parliament in the last 50 years?
    The very person who through his spin and through his disastrous policy initiatives – or perhaps lack thereof – single handedly turned NSW from one of the worlds’ most efficient and prosperous societies into the embarrassing backwater that it is today?

    Listen up ‘wing nuts’ go back to your new residence in NZ and spare us any more advice please!

  2. Michael

    The hide of the man!

  3. snesn11

    Bob Carr’s weakness is that he led a government that failed to respond to Sydney’s infrastructure needs, especially in providing new rail and mass transit services in Sydney.

    In fact, his government was well-known to have a secret contempt for public transport users that dismissed them as just the poor and the no-hopers – shocking stuff from a Labor government but indicative of the fact that the current rot started well before Iemma, Rees and Keneally came along.

    So before he puts in his twenty cents about what our cities can cope with I would like to hear him account for his own government’s lack of provision for the long-term needs of the city.

  4. Greg Angelo

    It is quite obvious to anybody with half a brain that exponential population growth cannot be maintained. Suggestions have been made by politicians that the population of Bangladesh is sustainable therefore we have nothing to worry about. Australia’s standard of living is a function of the population levels relative to the resources available in the environment. This includes clean air, water, and open space.

    Melbourne has already outgrown its environment. We cannot survive on the available water within the Melbourne catchment area without significantly degrading the environment. Accordingly we have a totally amoral and hypocritical government turning highly polluting brown coal for both a desalination plant (which we wouldn’t need if we are constrained our population), and aluminium smelter (fed by under priced electricity) which we don’t need except to feed a few union subscriptions into the ALP coffers.
    Unfortunately and we also have an unholy alliance between building unions, ALP factions, property speculators and land developers, and of course ordinary householders whose property values are steadily rising as a consequence of property scarcity. All of these players have their snouts in the trough while the environment is being trashed.

    Here in North Balwyn, trees are being bulldozed for McMansions and I cannot you get enough water to keep my garden green. Yet we have a Premier who is hell bent on a 5 million population for Melbourne whilst we are choking with inadequate public transport infrastructure, and inadequate roads investment whilst steadily increasing the population density per square kilometre in the inner suburban areas.

    At the federal level we have a lunatic running the asylum where we have a 300,000 new immigrants per annum placing additional pressure on the environment and our living standards.

    It is sad that Bob Carr was silent on these matters while he was Premier of New South Wales and it would appear that he has had a “deathbed conversion” now that he is no longer subject to factional supplication .

  5. Charu Khopkar

    Bob Carr and Bob Birrell – a match made in heaven when it comes to whining about immigration and immigrants. The latter supplies dodgy stats and the former the media spin to give them spurious accuracy. On Bob Carr, no one could have said it any better or succintly than “Michael
    Posted Thursday, 1 April 2010 at 1:46 pm” (see above).

  6. baal

    Carre has been consistently bleating this message for years. As have the Greens and Tim Flannery. As if of all countries Australia couldn’t solve the problem of how to live with its environment. They are all the same these characters. What have they done to deserve this suburban paradise? And keep it to themselves? So we might have to change our lifestyle!

  7. Frank Campbell

    “the beaches choked”

    Only an Australian would say that. A capital city dweller at that.

    “Sydney has been most successful at this, achieving the highest percentage of dwellings in high and medium density.”

    Bob was Premier of where? Sydney Successful? Oxymoronic. All those dismal flats, congestion… The least desirable urban area in Oz.

    “Yet I’m far more worried about water”.

    But the cities can buy their way out of water shortage. More desal. Pipes. They’re doing it now. Most water isn’t used in the cities. Look at rapacious agriculture.  Land degradation is more intractable a problem than urban water. Urbanites rarely give that a thought.

    I trust everyone reading Bob Carr’s piece notes that there isn’t a whiff of Global Warming in it, anthropogenic or otherwise. AGW is probably a furphy, but GW probably isn’t. So better give it some thought. Once again, GW (if it continues) will mainly impact the environment. For those of you unsure, the environment is not in the cities. It’s the stuff you fly over.

    Maybe Crikey should be renamed Crikey Metro, because the environment is almost never mentioned. (I exclude the endless hysteria from Calvin Hamilton and the Climate Cultists, naturally).

  8. Elan

    Would this be the same Bob Carr who qualified for all the very generous perks of former political office-even more generous for ex-Prems,-that now works for the Mac Bank?

    Wozzamatta Bobby? Frightened you might have to make your money stretch further?

  9. snesn11

    Increased density would actually improve many areas of Sydney and Melbourne. If you visit some of the suburban wastelands in Sydney the you see areas that are crying out for the higher densities that would support a higher provision of amenities of all kind. It would also give these areas the community feel they currently lack.

    As examples look at some of the stations along the Liverpool line. You go through station after station where there is almost nothing around the station other than old low-standard suburban houses. Transform, with higher densities, the area around the station and you would have a hub that the whole surrounding community would benefit from.

  10. billie

    So SNESN11, Elan, Charu Kopkhar, Michael do you think you will be better off with a larger population?

    At the moment I push my way onto my peak hour tram, then push my way onto the train. I notice that pedestrians get half the space that they had 35 years ago [in the Elizabeth St subway and exits] and the population has doubled.

    The advantage of increased population is that the trams are crowded at night and thus its safer to walk round after dark than it was 20 years ago.

    Like Greg Angelo I wonder how much further I can cut my water consumption without concreting my yard and installing air conditioning.

  11. Michael

    Billie what exactly are you talking about.
    What part of the moon do you reside on.
    Mate this is Australia 3000km East to West; 2000km North to South, more kangaroos than people and you complain?

    Have you ever travelled outside Sydney’s Eastern Suburbs?

    Have you been to Europe, Asia, South America, USA, anywhere at all outside Centennial Park?

    Mate if we have a population problem then we don’t know what a problem is.

  12. snesn11

    Billie, obviously centralising workplaces into the CBD has to end. Other commercial hubs will have to be pushed along and public transport will need to be redesigned so that it supports multiple hubs.

    As for your garden I see no right to use large amounts of water to support that. As you know, there are low water native gardens that are quite capable of thriving in a more restricted water environment.

  13. Stevo the Working Twistie

    Aaaah. Of course. It’s April Fool’s Day. You got me for a minute there Crikey!

  14. Elan

    It shames me that some Australians do see this as overcrowding.

    We are nothing of the kind,-rather the opposite.
    ___________________________

    What the hell is going on? I know this isn’t an April Fools thing. Suddenly we have so many topics here on Crikey alone, dealing with immigration/immigrants/population explosion/’illegals’/boats that are approaching Australia akin to the Dunkirk landings/ foreign ownership of Australian dwellings.

    For God’s sake get a bloody grip! What a self-centred lot we are. We settled this land whether its indigenous peoples liked it or not-and treated them VERY badly in the process;-we haven’t changed our behaviour in that very much, but we have said sorry…, so that’s OK.

    We continue to pander in political expediency, to (in modern history) our American friends, willingly joining them in illegal invasions- bringing ‘democracy’ to countries with rich oil deposits, and in this endeavour causing the deaths of countless innocent people. At the same time we and our powerful allies ignore the cruelty, exploitation, and killing in countries that have ‘nothing in it for us’.

    What happens? People are disenfranchised if they are lucky. Murdered if they are not. They run for borders…..

    And they try to achieve a life…by any means possible… that WE set out to achieve in this country of :- immigrants!! (If I was in the same position I would get on a bloody leaky boat too!)

    BUT: we cannot allow that can we? We spout on about ‘too many people/not enough water/we will all end up as Moslem’s/they are taking our homes/they are terrorists’.

    When will we ever learn? What an utterly self- absorbed lot.

    “I have achieved the best life I can, but I am closing the door on you. I will do nothing to assist you. I will categorise you in the most degrading manner, and demonise you, and thus dehumanise you, to justify my moral high ground. To make me simply someone who really does care for my country.”

    Can’t you see what is happening? Look how many topics here and in other media, are now obsessing about this?

    We are returning to the utter evil that was Howardism. That man and his regime fanned the flame of hatred and intolerance.

    And here we go again…………………..

    There is a gossamer thin line between tolerance and simple humanity, and the white hooded hatred lying just beneath the surface of those just waiting for the type of ‘we’re all doomed’ bullshit currently being touted in the media at large.

    This makes me utterly fucking furious!!!!!!!!

  15. snesn11

    The really disappointing thing about Carr is that he and Kennet are rough contemporaries and yet it is Kennet, who was much derided and attacked at the time by Labor supporters, including myself, who has the far stronger record of reform in health, transport, education and infrastructure. Carr severely damaged the credibility of Labor as a party of genuine and tough reform rather than a party of appearances and spin.

    Yes, he did some good with national parks but there is little else to boast about from that long premiership.

  16. Charu Khopkar

    Billie,

    What we’d be better off with would be politicians who have the skills and the ability to govern NSW and Australia – and specifically, manage its infrastructure to provide for a population that is essential to maintain our standard of living. Politicians like Bob Carr and his ilk can only think of re-election for a period of their choosing and then parachuting into highly paid private sector job on the basis of the influence gained while in office. We elect people to political office who don’t even have the skills to manage a corner shop and give them billion dollar portfolios. We elect and re-elect politicians who are only skilled at political intrigue, whose only experience is in another politician’s back office scheming against other politicians.

    The reason why we have over-crowded trains, buses and ferries in Sydney is because of incompetent and venal politicians whose rationale for allocation of scarce resources is political advantage to secure their own re-election and the perks of power and privilege.

  17. John Bennetts

    We love you, Bob… really… we do, don’t we? Well, don’t we?

    On your past performance, you have picked an odd topic. Some of us will remember for a long, long time.

    So, please enjoy your perks, your MacBank office and your capital gains. Preferably, quietly and with dignity.

    Now, please p_ss off.

  18. Scott Grant

    I don’t think it would have mattered who was premier in NSW. Every time someone tried to plan for some desperately needed infrastructure, it got squashed by the small minded neo-liberals in treasury. THIS is where the rot resides in NSW. But Bob’s article is spot on.

  19. bakerboy

    We can’t provide for a population of 35 million and maintain anything like our current standard of living. Immigration is fine but the numbers must fit the overall plan. The capital cities are just not sustainable if they keep growing. I’m very familiar with the growth of SE Qld over the past 15 years having lived in Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast. Brisbane just cannot grow much bigger with its current boundaries. High rise won’t help as most will still have a car and the roads are already jammed.

    Dear old Gough Whitlam and his much maligned team at least had a go at de-centralization but successive governments just let the idea drop as the developers went for the easy money by expanding the capitals. NSW, Victoria and Qld all have well established regional centres which could expand given the funding and given adequate support for government agencies and companies moving to those regions.

    Politics and public spending in Australia is very city-centric. In Brisbane 3 billion has just been spent on road tunnels which take you to a traffic jam at the other end. But in Toowoomba, just 1.5 hrs west, they can’t get 1.5 billion to build a new road up the range to service the ever growing energy developments further west. Sadly, I can’t see any political will to show some foresight and produce a decent plan for Australia as a whole.

  20. snesn11

    Also, look at Kennet and Carr post-premiership. Kennet has done some really worthwhile stuff in mental health. Carr has some shoddy but highly paid consultancy at Macquarie Bank and spruiks himself around the place as a third-rate public intellectual, more to feed his own vanity to any worthwhile purpose.

  21. gerard

    bakerboy:

    We can’t provide for a population of 35 million and maintain anything like our current standard of living. Immigration is fine but the numbers must fit the overall plan.

    Our current standard of living is dubious and compared with most OECD countries, more third world than developed world. We are lagging behind in almost all criteria that would normally apply to the tag ‘high living standard’. Our education system below average, our health system with almost double hospital admissions than elsewhere, obesity being the worst in the world, our miserable social systems, care for the mentally ill, our high rates of incarcerations, enormously oversized cities with relative small populations spread over thousands of suburban wastelands and totally isolated acres.
    Australia has been allowed to grow unfettered and ad hoc and with one of the lowest taxation levels, again of the OECD, we can only do so much to improve our above mentioned infrastructures.
    We seem to confuse living standards with values of real estate. In other words, private wealth but public poverty.

    http://oosterman.wordpress.com/

  22. notagin112

    Whose living standards are we talking about here? Not mine, not anyone i know. Tough crap if some city beaches are full, if some or all trains are busy…welcome to urbanity.

  23. baal

    They aren’t even full. Ever seen pics of Rio de Janiero?

  24. Denise Marcos

    There are interesting & thought-provoking comments above. Especially from ELAN.

    Inevitably, our standard of living will be compromised – frankly it has far surpassed the modest requirements of most humans. Western culture is one of materialism, abundance & wastage. And our mantra is more more more.

  25. snesn11

    “Our current standard of living is dubious and compared with most OECD countries, more third world than developed world.”

    You really need to get out more. In particular you need to get out and visit a few third world cities and then, perhaps, the absurdity of this statement might be apparent to you.

  26. mickyj

    Its nice to sit back and watch the left strangle itself on this issue. No immigration – wasn’t that Pauline Hanson’s line? Oh but that was for a nationalistic reason. Can’t have that can we lefties?

  27. baal

    It was Arthur Calwell’s line

  28. Norman Hanscombe

    The sad aspect of the ‘debate’ is that Carr’s opponents seem to feel it’s enough to attack his/motives/past/mother in law or anything else rather than concentrate on the issue. Even if Bob is a Martian spy (and I stress there’s no evidence he is) wouldn’t it be worth considering looking at the argument itself, rather than shooting messenger?

    There’s little doubt that rapid growth, in the short term, can and has raised our living standards. The reasons for this are understood too well to require lengthy discussion of that topic. There’s also no doubt that the planet, including Australia which is after all part of that planet, will become a disastrous catastrophe if population simply continues to grow — and the longer the current alarming growth continues, the more intractable the problem becomes.

    Add to this the fact that non-renewable resources of all kinds are being depleted at ever-increasing rates and I don’t think it’s being over-pessimistic to suggest we might have a problem — an extremely serious problem — facing us. If anything, I’d suggest that Bob is being a tad too optimistic.

    For the obsessed true believers on all sides of the debate, however, careful analysis of facts isn’t necessary. Whether you’re a true blue tree hugger, a 100% denier of even the remote possibility of climate change, a member of the Citizens’ Cttee for the Defence of the Human Rights of Cockroaches, or any other of the myriad of progressive and/or conservative sects proliferating in Western Society, since you ‘know’ you’re right, who needs to do anything other than abuse the messengers?

    I guess I’ll just have to adjust to the ‘benefits’ for our lucky country having so many tertiary educated students around these days who have discovered that in the postmodern era, they only need beliefs, not arguments for supporting those beliefs?

  29. baal

    Now there’s a real thinker. Maybe these blogs are worth it after all.

  30. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Bakerboy, not that I want to see Brisbane expand (ie. cover an enlarged area) but do you really believe that it is not possible to increase the city’s population within the current boundaries? Brisbane covers an enormous area. The CBD is surrounded by tens of kilometres in every direction of sprawling suburbia. And you would wish this sprawling suburbia on Qld’s regional cities?
    Take a look at Townsville some time. Townsville is being touted by Anna Bligh as the next stimulated growth point – a regional capital (of all things!). Successive ALP local government administrations (25 years straight) have colluded with all of Australia’s best known subdivision developers to push onward and outward across the coastal flatlands creating the country’s 12th biggest city (150,000+) with hardly a medium density development more than two kilometres from the CBD. The recently deposed mayor of 19 years, now the ALP’s National Executive-appointed candidate for the Liberal-held federal seat of Herbert, is closely associated with a huge greenfield (well, spindly eucalypt woodland) urban development proposal some twenty kilometres out of town where it is proposed that a sprawling satellite city of 60,000 will be planted – totally dependent on road transport, air conditioning and the meatworks/metallurgy/military complex that Townsville has become. It’s not as if this is some silicon valley or stairway to heaven. It’s just another 2,000 ha of bush being turned into McMansionville. Apart from a water supply from the bountiful Burdekin Dam (Queensland’s largest and overflowing virtually every January), about the only thing going for this site is that it is well above sea level and of course some of Labor’s best mates have a handy stake in it, thank you very much. In every other sense it is cursed with the same drawbacks as all the rest – including that it will sprawl across the last viable habitat of an endangered finch population. Anyway, what’s one bird species when you have over 700 others?
    The developers and their contractors will almost certainly have to import labour on 457 visas to build it. Our population is so busy making money for the corporations and CO2 for the environment that we don’t have the manpower to build our own towns. Doesn’t that seem a bit odd? What do you think Micky J?

  31. mickyj

    Norm- Your last paragraph is good. There is a serious lack of logical arguement especially among the self righteous holier than thou set.

    Over population seems to be symptomatic of a primitive 3rd world society. When China and India raise the living standard and modernise as they are trying to do their populations should stabilise. In fact I think China’s has already (not sure about this though as you cant be sure about anything when China is concerned). Africa doesnt seem to be as much of a problem as it is currently (and sadly) being depopulated by AIDS. And western political Green organisations staffed almost entirely by socialist western european children of upper and middle class parents, go to great lengths to beseech 3rd world states to “please stay in your caves for the sake of the planet.” I agree we need to keep a tight lid on immigration here as our infrastructure is totally maxxed out to the max. Perhaps a bigger problem here is the quality or compatability of immigrants just as much as the quantity.

    Baal : Arthur Calwell is the father of the White Australia Policy and was responsible for mass immigration in the post war era – I dont think it was his “Line.”

  32. skull and bones

    On top of the over population problem, we will have to deal with the fall out from years of misguided multicultural policies. Ethnic ghettos have already formed and it is only a matter of time before ethnic rivalries cause anarchy and chaos. Any historian or anthropologist can tell you that the history of multicultural societies is steeped in bloodshed. It results in Balkinization of the society. It is a simple reality.

  33. skull and bones

    List of those who have done so much damage to Australia that they must be considered to be planted Communist Agents sent to destroy us from within.

    Gough Whitlam
    Bob Hawke
    Paul Keating
    Bob Carr
    Kevin Rudd with particular emphasis on former Communist Party secretary Gillard.

    Any more agents detected out there?

  34. Norman Hanscombe

    Come off it, Skull. Next thing you’ll be telling us is that the old movie, “The Manchurian Candidate”, was a documentary? We elected a known Communist, Fred Patterson, to the Qld Parliament in the 40s without the sky falling in. There was even an undercover Communist, Donald Alfred Hancock in Swan from memory, elected to the Federal Parliament in 43 — but we survived even that.

    Nowadays, of course, the Communist Party is so miniscule it could meet in a Telephone Box; and most of its membership is so ancient they’d qualify for post-senior citizen status. Why not concentrate instead on looking out for a Martian invasion which, while admittedly unlikely, is no less a potential problem than Communist infiltration.

  35. Liz45

    Elan
    Posted Thursday, 1 April 2010 at 5:51 p

    Agree!

    “SKULL AND BONES – Gough Whitlam
    Bob Hawke
    Paul Keating
    Bob Carr
    Kevin Rudd with particular emphasis on former Communist Party secretary Gillard.”

    Are you serious? What is a Communist?

  36. Liz45

    SKULL AND BONES – It’s interesting to note, that Cuba is probably the only country that is self sufficient in all respects. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Cuba had to fill the gaps in many areas – they’ve succeeded with a population half the size of Australia? This together with the trade sanctions meant they either became self sufficient or collapse.
    We could do it too if we stopped the behaviour others have mentioned previously – such as Elan’s comments!

  37. snesn11

    Any person who thinks that Cuba is in any way a possible model for Australia is a crank who could not possibly be taken seriously – their capacity for useful thought has disappeared.

  38. mickyj

    Its not called Communisim any more. Commutarianism is the predominant received ‘theology’ of the socialist political spectrum. Even more dangerous than communism.

  39. Norman Hanscombe

    LIZ 45, are you serious, agreeing with Elan’s emotive nonsense? Even taking in everyone who wanted to come woulodn’t make a dint on international problems. Have you no idea what little effect balancing out the world’s poverty etc with what Australians enjoy would have minimal effect — except for for Australians, of course?

    In some respects you’re the mirror image of Skull. You both approach issues from how you’d like to imagine the world, rather than accepting the problems which arise from human nature, NOT nurture. Castro’s trump card was always that elections were irrelevant, and he eliminated his initial progressive allies who questioned his dictatorship path.

    No reasonable observer would deny that US acts made it harder for him; but no competent analyst would be blind to Castro’s brutal methods — unless, as is all too often the case with ‘true believers’ they let their emotions blind their jydgment.

  40. baal

    @skull and bones – enjoy your tea party, who’s puring?

  41. baal

    @MickyJ quite correct – no ‘Asian’ immigration I think. I must have added it without thinking. Can’t have that.

  42. baal

    How about Populate without Hysteria

  43. mickyj

    i’d rather have tea party than a latte party in Paddington

  44. Liz45

    NORMAN – And of course in the US we had George W stealing the election of 2000 and probably the next one too! Watch ‘How Bush Won Florida’ and read more about it. The CIA now have permission to kill any US citizen anywhere in the world without the messy nonsense of a trial. They have prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and who knows where else, and of course Guantanamo Bay, where the rule of law is a joke. You could also watch ‘Unconstitutional- the US war on civil liberties’ and many others. The US cares about its citizens so highly, that well over 130,000 of them died between 2000-’06 because they had no health care. How many of its citizens does it execute each yr; hasn’t even signed the policy re no violence to women and kids, invades countries for their resources and thinks it can go anywhere in the world and do anything including mass murder- and we support it! Raising these things is ’emotive nonsense’?

    Cuba on the other hand is training 1000 people from East Timor to be doctors. Cuba & Venezuela were the first on the scene after the Haiti disaster. Cuba at one stage had more doctors in other countries than in their own. It’s a better global citizen than we are and certainly much better than the US. We’re stealing the monies that are rightly East Timor’s via oil and gas. An agreement sorted out by Howard/Downer, and Rudd to his shame hasn’t either changed it or spoken out against this injustice. Downer had the right to lecture East Timor when they had the damned cheek to complain – “after all we’ve done for you” was Downer’s retort! What an insult to the people of East Timor seeing we helped in Soharto’s genocidal policies that resulted in 180,000 deaths!
    If it wasn’t for the Australian people’s rallies etc Howard/Downer wouldn’t have been forced to go to their aid the last time?

    What do you know of Cuba anyway!

    “Even taking in everyone who wanted to come wouldn’t make a dint on international problems.” Elan didn’t advocate taking in everyone who wanted to come” nor did I? I just think that we’re getting bloody selfish and insular. It wouldn’t be so bad if we either participated in causing so much of the misery(Iraq,Afghanistan and sucking up to Israel and ignoring their horrific violent acts against Palestinians etc) but to participate in the violence and then carrying on in a racist manner re those particularly from these countries is just indefensible in my view, and yes, it makes me f*****g furious too!

    Going by your ideas on how we should behave – it’s a case of let’s do anyone and any country over and just look after ourselves! Anything less is immature and/or idealistic!
    We’ve achieved this standard by lowering our standards over many yrs by killing etc the indigenous people of this land – we’re still doing it – we just use different methods these days!

  45. baal

    @MICKYJ – Oh dear, has nobody told you Crikey has a ban on ‘latte’ drinking as a term of social identification (and abuse)? Rather like comparing behaviour to Hitler, you lose as soon as you go there. Sorry, but you’re out without scoring.

  46. mickyj

    What would you consider and acceptable insult then?

  47. baal

    First you have to decide exactly who you are trying to insult. People drinking coffee with milk who live or hang out in Paddington? Sorry, it won’t do.

  48. mickyj

    I cant insult you – you havent said anything yet that makes me want to. You seem to be sniping without making any statements. Small target strategy.

  49. gerard

    By the way, Cuban’ literacy rate is higher than that of Australia at 99%. Their health services are also something that is enviable and free.
    Their main struggle has been that the US, that glorious ikon for freedom curtailed the freedom for Cubans for decades by trade sanctions. Anyway, they have overcome the impossible.
    Apart from all that, the country sings and is alive. That’s perhaps a bit more than can be said about our suburban and isolated way of life.
    Even so, we have our Westfield food courts and Bunnings to add substance and relief to the ennui of everyday living and rampant debt levels.

  50. baal

    MickyJ interesting assumption that you should think I’d think you were insulting me, but as you correctly observe, I haven’t made any ‘statements’. There are plenty of people doing that. I’m just here to monitor poor argument, irrational assertions and sloppy logic, so sorry, Micky, you are the target. But, a little study and self awareness and who knows you too might make a useful contribution to this thread. 🙂

  51. snesn11

    Gerard, it is a mistake to extrapolate your own depression across the whole nation.

    Cuba has, in the past, been given most favoured nation status by sections of the left but that is pretty old hat now. Most are now willing to admit that it is a decaying tyranny. Sure, it is still much more attractive than North Korea but that doesn’t mean it has much, if anything, that deserves emulation.

  52. mickyj

    I have been unusally quiet on this thread I admit, as I said first up I was happy to sit by and watch the left strangle itself over this issue. However my post 2.27pm did offer somthing of value. Want don’t you bite down on that and tell me what it tastes like. Then we can dance.

  53. skull and bones

    Elan. Which form of pension are you on?

  54. baal

    MICKYJ – couldn’t find your 2.,27 post so can’t say anything really.

  55. skull and bones

    BAAL, you are a waste of time and space and more than likely not, taxpayers money. Did you know that the great satan of Australian politics, Gough Whitlam is still living it up with his fat pig of a wife at taxpayers expense? I think he still heads the Australian arm of the Fabien society as well. They are the true power of the Labor party and their objective is to make us all slaves to their ideology. They do this by slowly and gradually increasing the vertical integration between citizens and government, thus destroying social bonds and making everybody reliant on Government, rather than themselves, their family and friends.

  56. Norman Hanscombe

    Oh my God!!!!!!!!! Run for the hills!!!!!!!!!!!!! They’re coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  57. mickyj

    Posted Friday, 2 April 2010 at 2:27 pm | Permalink
    Norm- Your last paragraph is good. There is a serious lack of logical arguement especially among the self righteous holier than thou set.

    Over population seems to be symptomatic of a primitive 3rd world society. When China and India raise the living standard and modernise as they are trying to do their populations should stabilise. In fact I think China’s has already (not sure about this though as you cant be sure about anything when China is concerned). Africa doesnt seem to be as much of a problem as it is currently (and sadly) being depopulated by AIDS. And western political Green organisations staffed almost entirely by socialist western european children of upper and middle class parents, go to great lengths to beseech 3rd world states to “please stay in your caves for the sake of the planet.” I agree we need to keep a tight lid on immigration here as our infrastructure is totally maxxed out to the max. Perhaps a bigger problem here is the quality or compatability of immigrants just as much as the quantity.

    Baal : Arthur Calwell is the father of the White Australia Policy and was responsible for mass immigration in the post war era – I dont think it was his “Line.”

  58. skull and bones

    Norman, there isn’t any time now for wrong moves. The Government must do the right things and do them fast or Australia is economically doomed. The time for Academic crap is over, a luxury no longer affordable. At present we are skating on thin ice, with 1.5TRILLION in welfare payments to find over the next ten years, extremely low levels of productivity, the highest personal debt levels in the world and a property bubble bursting at the seams. Unfortunately our Government is full of people with about your level of wisdom, and even worse full of flawed ideology. Just hope the minerals boom keeps going as I suppose you are expecting taxpayers to fund your retirement if they are not funding you already. If you want to do something useful, go and ask the Government why this country has no detailed industry policy or plan going forward ie there is nothing to replace the Minerals boom once it ends. Government is relying on good luck, or in the case of the Labor party a desire for the economy to fail. [Please refrain from abuse of other commenters please]

  59. Elan

    Numbskull: titty for tatty eh? I’ve dismissed your tripe elsewhere, I’m not going to waste my time again.
    _________________________

    NOW: Norman Hamstrung; that you have a problem with my ’emotive nonsense’ I care little, other than that you don’t have the spine to address that opinion directly to me.

    Still, you typify those arrogant creatures who, whilst deploring the educational capabilities of others, and thus, their incapacity to make any kind of valid and value judgment- then proceeds to do precisely the same thing!!

    What you have to do my dear Normie, is to develop the simple intelligence that YOU clearly lack, and except that people will differ in their views.

    Now: don’t go getting all ancy and talk about personal attacks/motives/listening to the argument etc.. Referring to one with disdain in the third person, is just as tacky as your attempted little lecture on online behaviour…, for others!!

    (And as I said,-spineless. Most here will address the object of their negativity directly).

    Do try it. We can then discuss this matter in a frank and honest manner.

    I look forward to it.

  60. skull and bones

    BAAL, I’m betting I’ve had more exposure to the real world than you have ever had or will ever have. People like you are cannon fodder for the movers and shakers. What social security are you living on, or are you just a public servant? Did you like Kevs handouts last year? There is more where that came from you know? Just vote 1 Kevin 07. More of others peoples money for you.

  61. Norman Hanscombe

    If we’re to adopt your naive approach, Skull, why not go all the way, starting with legislation outlawing cancer? As for ‘academic’ crap, I have to agree; but why exempt your bailiwick, non-academic crap, which is a not dis-similar problem?

  62. mickyj

    Whats naive about Skull & Boners posts? He sounds like he has a grip on ecomonic reality in this country and rightly critical of The Give me your fucking money Party (ALP). Kevin Rudd is the protocol droid called C3P0.

  63. skull and bones

    Elan, you havn’t answered my question. What pension are you on? You see this country no longer has time for your views and opinions as they are all wrong. The country must proceed with haste in the right direction for its own ecenomic viability. The luxury of experimentation with unworkable things like a mega welfare system, free health care etc.. is a luxury no longer affordable. [Please refrain from insulting other commenters – Mod].

  64. baal

    SKULL&BONES sorry I don’t fit your fantasy, but I don’t expect that will slow you down – just watch out for f*cking great logs floating down the river.

  65. skull and bones

    Norman, I don’t know what you are talking about. Nobody, has discussed any solutions, as we can’t agree on what the problems are. [Please refrain from insulting other commenters – Mod]

  66. skull and bones

    God bless America! The last standing fortress against the socialist disease, although the infection is spreading.

  67. skull and bones

    It’s the fabien society. They always try and shut me down.

  68. gerard

    SKULL AND BONES:

    It is sure a suitable name for writing nonsense without any meat or substance. What is it about the word ‘pension’ that rankles you so much?
    A mega welfare system? Where? You obviously haven’t bothered getting some facts together. Australia’s expenditure on social welfare is the 4th lowest in the OECD per capita. Our taxation level also happens to be the 4th lowest in the OECD. That explains, not only our miserable standard of social infrastrutures, but also our creaky health and education systems. As for pensions, also an insult to the aged.
    Goverment after Goverment have been lowering taxation and with the revenue income from our mining are scraping by. Its own investigation has come out with needing to raise revenue, no matter who is in power.

    Let’s hope you never joined or bludged on your taxation obligations, have you SKULL AND BONES? It is Australia’s national sport, isn’t it?

    Before I forget, Australia together with America and Botswana are the only countries still not having introduced paid Parental Care. Mega welfare? I think not.

  69. baal

    This topic sure stirs up the armchair thugs

  70. skull and bones

    GERARD,

    Your numbers are totally wrong, but just keep believing what the Government tells you. You probably believe unemployment is at 5.5% as well. Regardless, most of the OECD is falling apart anyway, so even if your numbers were correct, and they are not, being the best of a bad buch aint that great is it. We need to be the best we can be. If you think spending 1.5TRILLION on welfare over the next decade is affordable then keep believeing it. Just go to the Treasury website and see budget outcomes. Last year we raised 124BILLION in income taxes. The welfare bill was 124BILLION. Now create a series of future cashflows using approximate inflation rates (my was very modest). Now claculate the PesentValue of those cash flows. Now whats your answer? Probably higher than mine and this ignores the aging population.

  71. mickyj

    Actually Gerard in OCED tax on income and profits as a % of GDP we are the 6th highest NZ is the second highest after bloody Denmark.

  72. mickyj

    No you just go about your life and hope to christ the Government continues to tax the shit out of the 20% of people that carry all the income tax burden in this country.

  73. skull and bones

    OK SNESN11, to respond to your opening remark on this forum. Those low value houses you speak of are often tenented by ageing people who do not have to sell because the Government pays them to live there. If we treated pensioners homes as assets which could be sold, the proceeds being used to live on e.g. in a high density retirement village, you would see a drastic change in the numbers of these homes made available for redevelopment or reuse by working people. Whilst we should never force a person to sell their home, we do not need to pay them to stay there either.

  74. skull and bones

    Any more socialists out there that need the real world explained to them?

  75. skull and bones

    Don’t annoy the demons MICKYJ.

  76. skull and bones

    Gerard. We do not need to raise revenue. We need to drastically cut expenditure. Yes tax dodging is a national sport, however I have never participated. Chances are Gerard I pay more tax in a year than you will pay in your entire life, and I came from poverty and have never been given anything in my life. If you truly think more taxes will solve the countries problems going forward then I have to ask the question; at what point do we stop borrowing, taxing and spending? All socialist welfare states arrive at the same place in the long run. Greece is the first in what will be a long line of economically failed states. You may notice that in Greece the first to suffer are public servants and welfare recipients, the very supporters of their succession of socialist governments.

  77. Norman Hanscombe

    The natives ARE restless tonight.

  78. mickyj

    To Hugh (Charlie) McColl: Sorry mate i missed your comment earlier today. I think what you say about your town is fair enough. Its sounds like you have some facts backing up what you say. You might be suffering from council – developer corruption as we are in NSW. Its deplorable.

  79. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    No, Micky J, it’s not corruption. This is how we do it. No one government is any better or worse than any other. They are all pretty faithfully reflective of all of us. Everything local government does is predicated on what the state government does or wants or needs and what support is available from the Federal Government. If the national population is increasing at 500,000 a year, any half-wit can work out more or less exactly where those people will end up. Townsville Council knows that there is a migration north, that it is encouraged by both state and federal government and that the city’s population will double in about 25 years. The question is, should we allow the Townsville footprint to double in area or should we change our urbanisation philosophy to sit better with the assets and attributes of Townsville, Townsvillains and the post modern, carbon conscious society we think we are creating?
    When we talk amongst ourselves about our town or society we bullshit till we’re tired. Then we cross up our agendas with our principles. We’ve had years of practice. Yet when we talk about (say) the Chinese Government and how they treat our briberous Aussie business executives or how they should help us combat global warming, we pretend that we never bullshit and never joist with windmills. We talk in tongues adopting a completely different set of standards and another language. Oils ain’t oils eh?

  80. Norman Hanscombe

    Hugh, stop looking for necessarily evil motives as the main driving force of people’s actions. Most ‘evil’ decisons can be made with the purest of motives. Evolutionary advantages for our species (once its cognitive abilities reached a certain point) often were to be found in us not always being aware of inconsistencies in our more dearly held positions. Cognitive dissonance is a useful, if frequently misunderstood, term that helps understand how this can work.

  81. mickyj

    Charlie, I agree that no one government is much better than another – both sides of politics suck. We in the west are condemned to a two party left-right dichotomy which is phoney and hoplessley inadequate. Im sure you can fit a few more people up there though in Townsville you have plenty of room. Sure it needs to be done so that your not crapping on your envirnmenet but I however do not subscribe to the carbon/greenhouse/ AGW thing whatsoever. It too is a political instrumnent to condition us particluly in the west for scarcity and a global feudalism. Meanwhile real environmental disasters are occuring like whats going on in the oceans, what they are putting in the water supply and how they are contimatiing the biosphere with god knows what GMO organisms. The chinese are under total tyranny. Its whole system is a bribe. They are mass killers and criminals that run that country. Not saying we dont have our share of crims in power but its a matter of degree.

  82. Bogan

    Look at the results of Italy’s overpopulation: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/back-in-a-bit/2010/03/22/slide-night-a-tale-of-two-romes/

    Do we want to go that route?

  83. mickyj

    Norm: Yes. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Do you mean things like religious faith has survival value or as you call it evolutionery advantage ? First you say there is advantage in not being aware of ones inconstencies and then you say cognitive dissonance is useful which is sort of saying the opposite. How do you mean?

  84. Norman Hanscombe

    In the primaeval savanna, MickyJ, with a species which had an awareness of the world not found in less cognitively developed creatures, there were significant advantages in holding unquestioning beliefs which helped to ‘explain’ a hostile world we couldn’t understand. We evolved defence mechanisms which were invaluable under those conditions.

    When, however, humans began making the rapid technological advances which led to more and more complex societies, we did so at a pace and in a manner which made evolutionary adaptation impossible. Today there’s a strong innate need in our species to believe in something. This provides a more than adequate explanation (no matter how unpleasant or painful that explanation may be) for History’s long list of an enormously wide and diverse range of humanity acting unspeakably — but in good faith — against their ‘enemies’.

    What once had significant survival value can now (because of technological advances) hold the seeds of widespread destruction. Whether more people being aware of the illusory nature of their ‘certainty’ is a sufficient condition for a more rational world I sometimes doubt. I am, however, rather more confident that it’s at least a necessary condition — dismal as the hope for any rational approach to any major problem may be.

    I imagine I’ll be gone before the worst of the faeces hits the fan; but it still worries me.

  85. snesn11

    Funny how things go. This starts with a real issue about population growth and our cities and finishes in a puddle of pretentious twaddle.

    Proof, yet again, that in internet forums evolution works in reverse.

  86. mickyj

    Norman I understand and I like the way you think. These “unquestioning beliefs” are what prevents man from being an evil destructive butcher also. The “strong innate need” makes us struggle to be good. Otherwise why would we bother being good? Leadership or a human without a strong innate sense of right and wrong can become monsters or psychopaths as we name them now. Similarly as you point out many have acted brutally in the belief they were serving their god or some authority fugure.

    When society moves, usually out of neccessity, into an organised hierachical organisation say like the plains indians of North America, man is confronted with the notion of government. Being told what to do. That is our problem now; how do we allow ourselves to be governed? Only today its more complex. Zimbardo conducted famous studies of what humans can be made to do if they are told to do it by an “authority”. Those studies revealed a lot about government, authority and what humans will do if “properly” ordered to. Hitler is a great case in point as every thing the Nazis did was techincally legal at least wthin Germany at the time.

    In mans early communities long ago a common power scam was invented to take on the authority of the accepted god of the tribe. So the witchdoctor or shaman holy man was born. They frequently set thems selves in mutual orbit around the chief who was ostensibly the miltary muscle of the tribe. Later the money power became a permanent member of this power triumvirate . Together they would rule for themselves usuaully at the expense of the tribe. A study of the Roman Empire and the last 2000 years of European history will show this.

    We must continue to struggle for enlightened constitutionality severly binding the hands of government leaving the individual as sovereign. That is why I am so critical of some left wing and right wing doctrine/ideology as it places its faith in the state which always leads to tyranny.

    If you want to know where I think we are headed, study Europe and its royal families over the last 1000 years and how they governed and controlled. This short blossoming of relative freedom in the west we have in the last 100 years is reverting rapidly back to a type of feudalism from the persective of the individual. Only a thousand times more virulent and scientifically informed.

  87. Elan

    “Elan, you havn’t (sic) answered my question. What pension are you on? You see this country no longer has time for your views and opinions as they are all wrong. ”

    I have to admit my first reaction to this was to laugh. Truly I laughed!

    Where do you get the idea that you can set the agenda in this discussion, Numbskull?

    Where do you get the idea that MY opinions are ‘all wrong’, simply because they are not yours!!

    That’s so childish, kiddo!

    I’ve put my view as I’m entitled to do- If I or that view is criticised/ ridiculed, then I’ll defend it/myself.

    No biggie.

    I see no point in repeating and repeating a view/post, (though I have made an exception to this on the rare occasion!)…., in the pointless endeavour that using it as a battering ram will convince those who hold the opposite view that I am right and they are wrong (which IS true….!).

    It don’t work, do it?
    _______________________________

    I agree with SNESN11. The original premise gets completely lost in the rugby scrum of trying to ‘come out on top’.

    That’s why I laughed.

  88. baal

    I think a bunch of drunks took over this thread last night.

  89. mickyj

    Who was drunk?

  90. Bogan

    Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin…….Err. What was the question?

    Every one on forums has good strategy suggestions, but the public is so mis-informed and il- informed and the protocol droid rudd et all are so apathetic to the great challenges, that I fear the only thing that will eventually bring about policy change will be some great disaster that focuses the zeitgeist. Ie if water got short, if petroleum stopped arriving at our ports, if food became short or if an economic collapse occured. Nothing like an unfortunate disaster to focus the mind and motivate the community to a single direction.

    Eg, I woulodnt be surprised if we saw mass famine in the sub continent, or the depletion of artesian water tables in large parts of India. The whole world is in my opinion on the verge of a destabilised period of high latant risk and essentially unsolvable problems, which will innevitably result in conflicts. Energy supplies are in contention, money supplies are devaluing and switching, gold is re emmerging, everyone has nukes, the whole muslim thing is happening from Russia to Denmark to bloody Dandenong, Africa continues to be pillaged, the west seems faced with possible decline, we have 39% of the worlds known uranium, we also have 1200 Billion in house hold debt. Shhhh…Dont mention the debt. Is the green back doing the Weimar deutchmark thing? Just when we thought it was safe again after the cold war, and now all this new crap starts happening.

  91. mickyj

    Bogan: Only trouble is theres nothing a government loves morethan an external crises which they use to vote themselves more power over us. Case in Point 9/11. Thence Patriot Act in USA draconian Terror Laws in UK and Australia and elsewhere, 2 new wars etc. They use crises sometimes real some times self inflcited to have their way with us.

  92. Liz45

    mickyj
    Posted Saturday, 3 April 2010 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    “Norman I understand and I like the way you think. These “unquestioning beliefs” are what prevents man from being an evil destructive butcher also. The “strong innate need” makes us struggle to be good. ”

    Perhaps you could both explain, why in a relatively short time, we’ve created enough horrific nuclear weapons to destroy the planet thousands of times over; committed brutal and violent genocidal acts; invaded and terrorised countries out of greed and the need to build empire; have kids dying from starvation every 30 seconds, and all we do is waft and theorise about over population?? Human beings are all wonderful except for the few who aren’t? Perhaps because it’s happening ‘over there’ we can just ignore it all!

    We’ve (humans as a species)learnt a lot of amazing and helpful positives through technology, but it’s just made people more vicious and greedy!
    We’re not content with that, we have to destroy vital parts of the flora and fauna, indeed the whole planet via our greed? Makes our concerns about over population ‘problem’ pretty insignificant – in comparison to the extra misery we’ve caused to other countries – like Iraq and Afghanistan for example!
    In the final analysis, we must admit, that much of our wealth and quality of life is on the broken lives of others! I don’t find the future outlook to be very bright at all, unless we deal with the main problem – our greed and callous disregard for others on the planet – of all species! How can we, while we’re killing, maiming and destroying others?

    While there’s enough of you who think this is emotional nonsense, don’t expect to move very far forward – we can’t solve the problem unless we look at the whole problem, not just our little ‘corner’ of it? Been too much of that over the last ??yrs?

  93. billie

    SNEZ I don’t know why you like Kennett so much. His razor policies destroyed many low paid long serving public servants lives, destroying their economic future, making some homeless and plunging many in depression. Its rank hypocrisy for him to have headed “Beyond Blue”. He was such an awful manager that the family business thrived when he was in Parliament and nearly went broke when he took over the reins from his wife. Gossip in the leafy suburbs at Easter 1994 was that Felicity had presented at a battered women’s shelter and there was a mediated settlement.

  94. billie

    Last year the Australian population grew by 500,000 people. that’s the population of Tasmania a state with 3 public hospitals, a multi-campus university, 200+ schools. Australia didn’t build 3 new public hospitals, 200+ new schools, proclaim a new public university, ergo increasing population stretches our infrastructure thinner, reducing the quality of life for the existing inhabitants.

  95. mickyj

    Liz the answer to most of the problems you have posed is : Governments. The greatest killer in the world is Government. In the 20th century alone 100million poepl were killed by governments. Governments commit genocide, nuclear war, cause starvation etc. That perhaps is oversimplification but its the biggest player attribuateble to these atrocities. Agin our governments must be limited and strung down by constitutionality and a soveriegn people. I dont know any other was other than Christ or god himself governing us.

  96. billie

    Commentators who think that Greece is the first nation to fail from the GFC haven’t been paying attention. They are oblivious to the financial woes of Iceland and Ireland. Commentator is probably of Greek descent with family members who have done better from “Mediterranean backs” than honest labour in the Ford factory.

  97. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Yes, Liz45 and Norman, humans are vicious and greedy and want to demonstrate it all the time – even in this blog. And yes, Micky J, we can all point to external crises that have been used against us and tribes and civilizations and psychos from the past who have done all these things better or worse than we are/will. And between us we have elected the governments we deserve – there’s no point whining about the taste and choice of your peers or their ancestors. But since we have some say in the here and now and we are interested in where that ‘say’ might take us to, what would you like to see happen with the development of the Australian population? Forget about who might have ripped off who, or whether primeval man is a hero or an evil villain. What’s the best thing for you in your street or town or piece of countryside? There’s a million different viewpoints out there, do you have just one? Bob Carr has put in his 10 cents worth and invited the rabble around to discuss it. Are we just a rabble or do we have a constructive contribution to make?
    Me? I think we should try to level off the population pretty smartly so that it plateaus out by about 2030. That should be easily possible simply by adjusting the immigration rate. Not to zero tomorrow but through judicious picking and choosing to slow the growth towards a target. And the target has a location factor as well as a content factor. And what about developing our economy? Well, it has to be cut to suit the same cloth. And the aging population? I think the most powerful contribution my baby boomer generation can make to the bulging world is to, instead of retiring to wallow in the excesses of superannuated travel and leisure (I’m not there yet), we should be devoting our own considerable healthy energies and resources to create a world for the elderly (soon to be us) which meets the exacting standards which we have come to expect. Don’t wait for the government or our children/grandchildren or some indentured Asian labour to show us how it’s done.

  98. billie

    Hugh McColl, what are you going to do to create a better environment for our elderly? If you can get Australian Seniors to go on a demo or get the regulations controlling the aged care sector changed in favour of the inmates I’ll join your protest.

    I am hoping that euthanasia will become available for the elderly before I slip into my dotage.
    I would like to see the aged care industry shaken up. The private operators in that sector make huge profits providing meagre and often substandard care to the frail elderly.

    Given the large numbers of unemployed Australians I can’t see why we need to import Filipino workers. Some estimates put the unemployment rate at 20% when you add in all those excluded from workforce participation by bureaucratic slight of hand. Australians might demand reasonable working conditions, older Australian’s backs might blow out faster than a frightened immigrant

  99. baal

    This thread has more illogical blithering than the climate change ‘debate’.

  100. mickyj

    Billie: True I can think of a few Countries too. USA, & UK, Spain, Portugal. Australia aint escaped yet once the property perfect strom gets rolling. It will be FUGLY. I also agree with your comment about a dilution in quality of life because of too many immigrants.

  101. mickyj

    You know this is slightly perverse but I must admit I will derive some satisfaction once the property bubble starts to collapse. It will be nice suddenly seeing the smiles wiped off the face of the myriad moronic TV presenters on those incessant property related shows we are bombarded with on free to air TV. How nice it will be to see Kochie putting on a brave face and say “hang in there folks property always comes back, you can’t loose on property.” (Not from a %50% negative equity in a new house in Kellyville you just paid $700K for with a $550K mortgage which interest has gone from 6% to 9% (a 50% increase folks) and is now worth notionally $450K if you could find someone to buy it.

  102. Liz45

    BILLIE – I seem to recall another shameful incident only recently, when Kennett made a pretty revolting comment re the numbers of gay men who commit suicide, mainly due to their confusion, peoples’ cruel and vicious attitudes and a feeling of being overwhelmed by it all. I can’t stand Kennett. I’m not surprised re the alleged ‘rumour’ about his abusive behaviour to his wife because he ticks many boxes that fits the profile;

    always right, and doesn’t like any criticism
    bombastic, sarcastic and pretty verbally horrible to women/everyone else too probably
    has a bad temper
    controlling behaviour
    many others that his demeanour shows?

    He stuffed Victoria’s public transport system among other things, and didn’t give a damn about any misery he caused – I wonder how many workers committed suicide due to his policies? He’s just a vile, arrogant little man!

  103. mickyj

    Liz: seriously you are only saying that because you have been succesfully propagandised by two separate but linked philosophies, namely femminism and maxist socialism. You probably were indictrinated unexpectedly while doing a TAFE course on flower arrangeing or knitting. Seriously though, I know people that have done priofesional nursing at TAFE ( a noble profession as it is) and found themselves learning about Marx. Now this is a fact. I am not freaking out here, lying 0r hallucinating and this was recent.

    Therefore you can’t stand Kennett because primarily he is 1. male and 2. conservative or appearing so.

  104. baal

    puffs chest out, hitches pants, looks around to see who’s watching and strides manfully into a cupboard

  105. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Billie, I don’t mean that we should all stand around and watch while the aged care industry is “shaken up” (by someone – not sure who you think that might be). No, I mean we should, ourselves, become the aged care industry. Look after our own dotage rather than asking (the same?) someone else to do the job – while we all complain about the level of service. It is completely clear already that the health budget is going to be swallowed by aging baby boomers tucked into inappropriate beds in crowded hospitals when we should be in other kinds of facilities which may not really have been invented yet. So instead of importing foreign youthful workers to serve an ‘industry’ that is already outdated and seriously costing us (and not delivering the service we think we want and/or deserve), it’s time we found another way. We should do the searching in concert with the slowing of population/CO2 growth.

  106. mickyj

    goes to the cupboard find a nice scarf, turns on ABC Radio National, calls his boyfriend and heads off for dinner at an inner city restaurant where he talks about “art” and the loathed petty bourgeoise attitude. Thinks about how father used to beat him and how mummy used to comfort him always. Goes home puts on his silk dressing gown and slippers answers voice message from mummy.

  107. baal

    What a rich, colourful and enviable life you lead, and so eloquently described. If I could, I’d take it all back. I really had no idea you were so, well, no other word but sophisticated. I’m surprised you have time to deal with us low life with such generosity and wit, but I guess it comes naturally and easily to you.

  108. mickyj

    Ok lets level with eachother Baal. Who art thou?

  109. mickyj

    Baal I have called you out several times now. I am happy to apologise to you if i have been wrong about you. Genuinely.

  110. baal

    I’m sure the rest of the thread aren’t interested in either of us

  111. mickyj

    Hugh McColl. Look stop referring to Co2 – its bullshit mate. Please. WIth the greatest respect i beseech you. Leave that crap aside will you. The C02 story is crap. Ak any scientist you can find. I mean real one that isnt paid off. Forget that crap will you> Your a good bloke Im sure drop the AGW baloney.

  112. mickyj

    Baal. Im interested if that counts for anything.

  113. mickyj

    Baal – Ive been harsh i know that. Im sorry. Please reveal yourself.

  114. baal

    So it seems

  115. billie

    Hugh McColl not sure you have put much thought into your proposition. When you are physically frail self funded retiree the traditional options tend to be

    1. care in own home from frumpy unmarried maiden female relative
    2. sign into a nursing home run by a church or private developer – must sell home to get equity – a problem if spouse is still capable of independent living
    3. share your own house with person needing roof over head in exchange for 10 hours labour
    4. engage live in housekeeper

    5. set up cooperative nursing home for yourself and selected well heeled amicable friends – assumes can you can control development project

    Not familiar with options are available for poor people

  116. Venise Alstergren

    BOB CARR: I’m fascinated to read your views on Melbourne’s “environmentally sensitive metropolitan plans”. Perhaps the next time you visit this MacMansioned slum you might get in touch with me. That way you can show me some of these amazing places.

    Of course the entire state is as dry as chips and our immigration rate is unsustainable. Ecologically the soil is, for the most part, stuffed. It isn’t deep and regularly the winds blow what is left of the topsoil, onto our capital cities.

    Otherwise I agree with about our LACK of need for sustained immigration and population growth. Certainly the aging population appears to be not associated with a large population. Yet! But you haven’t even come close to wrestling with the problems which Melbourne endures.

    Think about the appalling bushfires in 2009. Would they have been so horrific if the state government hadn’t allowed houses to be built up to the boundaries-sometimes inside-national parks? Nor have you mentioned the power of the developers who have so much money they can buy politicians.

    I’m sorry, but I can only imagine you were part of the malaise that infects this country.

    Perhaps you could whisper in Kevin Rudd’s ear the futility of shelling out millions of dollars to encourage women to have babies. At the present rate of a thousand dollars a pop.

    We need answers not rarified and gratuitous remarks from retired politicians.

  117. Venise Alstergren

    And now some ar/sehole has brought religion into it. Very American and completely un-Australian.

    The only thing Australians have to believe in is themselves. One belief they can also do without is the footy.

  118. Venise Alstergren

    MICKYJ: I’ll leave you to LIZ45s tender mercy. But I have to ask where on earth did you not learn how to spell?

  119. mickyj

    Your out of your league Liz. You havent offerred anything that has convinced anyone here otherwise. I disagree with feminsism and marxism. I can get as technical and detailed about why as you like as you like. Who cares how old I am? Old enough. Its not your age that counts but what you leearn with your years. Back up your thoeries with arguement rather than keep asking everybody what their life experience is or how rich or poor they are. It matters not Liz. You have annoyed and lost respect from just about everyone you have engaged here.

  120. mickyj

    Venise: Yes I agree my spekking is atrocious. Type fast and don’t spell check.

  121. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Wake up Billie. I’m talking about doing something well before we all become physically frail as well as elderly. There are a lot of well resourced, intelligent, active (say) 60 year olds out there who are about to retire and who aren’t going to be ‘elderly for another twenty years. Most of them have no idea what their last few years will be like. Or where they will spend them. Those people need to be harnessed now, to begin planning the kind of infrastructure which they themselves will need. Clearly, many people just want to be innocent bystanders who have no choice except to accept their lot – whatever that turns out to be when it arrives. Well, that’s one way I suppose.
    Like MickyJ really. Micky knows there’s CO2 out there and that all societies are going to deal with it – over his/her dead body if necessary. It might be ‘crap’ for a sound bite but even Tony Abbott wants to take that back. All our chickens are coming home to roost over the next 50 years. We can go to the peanut gallery and watch, cheering and groaning but not part of the action or we can get down and dirty at the front line and try to make our own future.

  122. mickyj

    Oh for christ sake Hugh. C02 is bullshit – do your friggen research man. Stop doing what all the governmenets want you to do – believe in their bullshit.

  123. billie

    Yes well fellas like MICKYJ have nothing to gain from feminism unlike the 52% of the population that would like equal pay, equal opportunity, control of their own fertility, support in rearing their families

  124. mickyj

    What are you saying Billie? Equal pay- Its a free market – people get paid what other people are willing to pay the way it should be. Why not pay a women as much as a man if they are worth it. They bloody do get paid the same in a lot of cases. When you get down to it at a species level though women are mums and men are providers. The more we get away from that the more fucked up our post modern world becomes.

    What do you mean control of their own fertilty? Explain your self please. Do you mean the right to abort pregancy?

  125. Hugh (Charlie) McColl

    Don’t go there Liz45.

  126. Liz45

    HUGH! No I won’t! Gee he’s a ????

    G’night! Not spending my birthday arguing with a troll?

  127. Bogan

    @mickyj
    “Bogan: Only trouble is theres nothing a government loves morethan an external crises which they use to vote themselves more power over us. Case in Point 9/11. Thence Patriot Act in USA draconian Terror Laws in UK and Australia and elsewhere”

    I aint referring to hyped threats and control through fear; I’m talking bout real macro threats that dont get mentioned in main stream media or by any politicians. I aint scare mongering and I aint indulging in far flung theories. Im talking of macro factors like energy security and the size of the world’s population. One climbs, the other diminishes, risk increases as does instability. Remember, Energy = population. As energy supply decreases and world population climbs, risk grows and is growing exponentially. Realise I aint talking about terror fear manipulation and its detriment to civil liberty, hyped fear or utter silence, it doesnt matter in comparison to what I just said about energy and the world’s population.

  128. Venise Alstergren

    MICKYJ: I hope you aren’t against abortion and euthanasia? You should deplore the religious right wing fundamentalists who are inane enough to believe in god or the terrible stupidities which are still being committed in his name.

    We continue bringing in huge numbers of skilled? semi skilled? migrants, because our education is so far under par that school leavers emerge as illiterate and incapable of thinking above the level of the Herald Sun comic section. They aren’t even qualified to take on jobs which involve manual labour. And we pay a thousand dollar bounty to each woman who produces another child. This is the sort of thing the rust-bucket states of America produce, for Christ’s sake.

    As these same men get into their forties and fifties huge beer guts emerge to reveal a level of physical exercise that is non-existent. This needs to be remedied.

    There, currently, seems to be in state and federal government as dread a bunch of terminally mentally- challenged politicians as Oz is ever likely see. Just look at the idiot who is always posing in his Lycra budgie smugglers. Tonight in an ABC ad for Q&A, next Monday night, he was on the point of taking off his shirt. He was looking at the audience and asking them if they wanted him to take off his effing shirt.

    Oz needs politicians who can think rather than menopausal men who flash their undercarriages and who have passed up on rational thought and logic. We need politicians who haven’t been brought up in the Catholic faith, or any other brain sapping cult. People who believe in a secular society. Because that’s what we are meant to be.

    Amongst all the other things Oz needs are brains, education, the ability to be enthusiastic, and a shared concern to live in harmony with the environment, rather than just the finite mineral producing mining industries who see mega-billions in each hole in the ground. An interest in compassion wouldn’t go astray either.

    Abortion and euthanasia must be legal, and anyone wishing to become medical practitioners should be vetted for ardent Catholicism. To refuse to pass on help by way of appropriate medical referrals for women who are desperate to abort the results of being raped-frequently by their fathers-is an act of barbarism which should be grounds to kick them them out of their medical practices.

    We haven’t even touched the needs of existing populations, yet we face a world of people fleeing from over population and poverty and rushing here where our infrastructure and town planning is still rooted in the 1950s.

    Above all we need water. And we ain’t got it. And not all the technology in the word is going to give it to us. We needed to practice some fifty years ago the end result needed for the year 2040. But you know Australians, always so quick to say ‘she’ll be sweet’ as the next squillion dollar government plan runs into a brick wall. Myki anyone????

  129. Venise Alstergren

    MICKYJ: I didn’t think it was you at all. I’m very tired but I felt sure someone came perilously close to it. It was nearer the beginning of the comments than this end.

    Cheers

    Venise

  130. gerard

    If it is possible to get away drom the Neanderthal rock throwers and get back to the issue of this thread about where to house our extra millions in the future.
    Of course we know that our main cities are spread over areas the size of entire countries elsewhere and have comparative small populations.
    Holland is a case in point. It is one of the most densily populated countries in the world and for a large part is well below sea level. It is also the third largest producer and exporter of agricultural products. It enjoys a generous social infrastructure with good pensions, unemployment payments, materity paid leave but apart from income tax also pay a social security/benefits tax.

    The problem with having ‘own block and own house’ in building cities is that it is just not pratical and finally makes for isolated living whereby work, shopping , leisure etc, entails miles of travelling by private car. Public transport is minimal and not within practical limits of ever becoming a reality.
    Perhaps it is worthwhile to mull over this article:
    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2748337.htm

  131. Liz45

    MICKYJ – I question your age when you repeatedly intimate that you’re brighter than anyone, your opinion is the best one, and most others(particularly women) are beneath you. I’ve lived many yrs and among other things, they’ve been a pretty good learning ‘tool’? You have even used insulting language towards your own sex, Hugh re climate change a good example.

    Feminists aren’t born, they’re MAN made – the biggest contributor in my case anyway, and just about every utterance from you has confirmed that. It’s capitalism that denies the right of women to equal pay, the same attitude that permeates racism-then you can tell lies and steal land and resources that don’t belong to you-wouldn’t entertain the idea of digging under St Mary’s Cathedral in Sydney would they? Years ago, my late sister spent weeks TRAINING a bloke about 19 yrs her junior in her line of work – he got a title and a company car and a higher salary than her – she left soon after – absolutely disgusted. Another life experience that added to my long list!

    Then you leave no shadow of doubt with your last revolting statement/s of which I won’t even discuss with an arrogant misognynist like you!

  132. mickyj

    Liz your stupid religion involves setting one half of humanity against the other. Hasn’t your years on earth given you enough wisdom to see that? Before you start knocking “capitalist countries” go to China, India, Africa, the Middle East, Japan, Eastern Europe; their women are treated like crap. Women in English speaking countries have the most liberty. I don’t think I am brighter than anyone; just you because of your adherence to the absurd. I am not a misogynist -its you that sees every man as one, with your ridiculous philosophy that you have allowed yourself to be fooled by. “St Mary’s Cathedral” – there you go again using outrageously random and meaningless anecdotes in a pitiful attempt to make some ridiculous point based on the absurd. As far as Hugh goes I just used strong language to emphasize my point but it was aimed at the issue not the person, unlike your continuous use of argumentum ad hominem attacks which forces me to retaliate in kind.

  133. Norman Hanscombe

    Enough of this criticism mickey j and liz 45. Each of you has much more in common with one another than there is in your different conclusions. You share similar analytical skills, similar blind certainties that you’re right and others who disagree with you are evil and/or stupid.

    Were I religious, I’d say you two are a match made in Heaven. Go then, in peace rather than pieces but whatever you do, in the spirit of the blog topic, do NOT go forth and multiply, no matter what the Good Book says.

  134. Liz45

    I’d say to the both of you, to do some reading prior to insisting on religious zeal of non facts to argue points. You’re both ignorant of the facts and obviously choose to remain so. That doesn’t change the facts – it just leads to more frustration. It’s part of the idealogy that allows discrimination of mainly women and girls in all spheres of life, including incomes, fertility issues and relationship violence!

    The fact is Mickyj that the stats in English speaking countries are a disgrace – and pointing the bone at others that are either perceived to be or are worse does nothing to remove the stats here. Using your logic, they should be heaps better if not non-existent, the fact that you think that shows a poor reflection on you and your attitudes, not the facts that too many are or have lived!
    Your own utterances are a graphic example of your contribution to the problem – continuing to argue against it only reinforces your level of contribution!
    Your whole demeanour to me is an example of your ‘passive violent’ attitude – your demeanour to other men shows your opinion of yourself is supperior to them?
    To put it bluntly, you’re part of the problem!

    Go to the White Ribbon Day site or the Australian Domestic & Family Violence Clearinghouse site or just put Domestic Violence into Google and see how many millions of sites are there that relate to behaviours in the English speaking countries!
    Nothing to boast about there I assure you! We’re not even safe when we’re old and in a nursing home for goodness sake! How disgusting is that?

    This is relevant to the population of our country. How we relate to and treat people is the very essence of a country and its values, and how it’ll solve this issue and others. If there’s going to be lots more people living in even more confined spaces, the violence factor will be very relevant! Although, it’s a very real factor in ordinary dwellings of reasonable size and space now! Perhaps this is why the Rudd govt has promised $45 million for programs that discuss and help prevent violent abuse! Why it’s foreshadowed, that DV this year? will cost this country $13 billion!

  135. Venise Alstergren

    LIZ: Hang in there. Feminism isn’t my bag, being the reason I can’t support you with facts. This would weaken your argument.

  136. Bob the builder

    Weel all be rooned….

  137. Norman Hanscombe

    Oh dear, oh dear, Lizzie, Jesse Street would be embarrassed. And don’t worry too muchVenise, as it doesn’t appear to be Lizzie’s forte either. Nor, I suppose, arithmetic, as she refers to Mickey as “both”. Very strange indeed.

  138. Liz45

    VENISE – Thank you and that’s fine!

    Most of the argument or discussion to date is the nuts and bolts of life and living. There’s been at least 3 different articles on the same or similar issue this week! Anyone (BILLIE for example) who raises other aspects is castigated by the likes of mickyj who only shows his contribution to the problem by displaying his own controlling, manipulative, rude, arrogant, know-all and abusive self! He takes a particular delight in denigrating women, via their age, assertions, political affilliations and just life’s experiences. People like him would never lower themselves to engage in the real ‘blood and guts’ issues that are of equal or more importance to peoples’ lives and quality of life – because he’s only pre-occupied with his own, which is apparently ‘I’m OK and f**k the rest of you’ type of attitude!

    There’s only so many bloody ‘nuts and bolts’ on offer isn’t there? People can be miserable in a one roomed shack or a mcmansion. If we don’t get the ‘blood and guts’ issues sorted out, the rest will not matter! In fact, ‘the rest’ will be a damned sight worse than now!
    Most of us agree, that there is or soon will be a problem re over population in relation to housing, food, employment etc – how many times do you hop on the merry go round re this. Yes, let’s start with importing less people via immigration, but keep our responsibilities and humane-ness to asylum seekers etc. Let’s make sure that we provide education that will most importantly fulfill the psyche and provide rewarding employment, that contributes to all our needs first, and wants after! Other than that, unless we start bumping people off, what else is there to discuss? The continuance of govts that don’t plan beyond the next election let alone too far into the future? The over-emphasis on goods and services, on ‘things’ and employment, but never on the real important stuff that brings either happiness or misery, or perhaps, contentment of us all! People like mickyj think that this is “emotional twaddle”? Why is this?

    And if we don’t like the people on offer in govt, or who intend to stand for any level of govt, let’s get off our collective bums and do something about it. How many people here protested about Howard’s cruelty, or said, ‘stuff it, he’s wrong but I’m not getting involved’? Well, that leaves the likes of yours truly and friends (of all ages and sexes I might add) who get bloody lonely sometimes, standing out there while others are down at the pub or club making whooppee! Say you do it at all, and sir mickyj will quickly and without any insight, put you in a labelled pen with your name on it! Even if it’s ‘motherhood stuff’ like protesting at elderly women being raped or sexually abused! Has he written any letters or emails about this? Complained about the non-compliance with the presumption of innocence of too many? High cost of child care? Invading other countries to steal resources; remaining silent about torture or Dr Haneef? I bet not!

  139. Elan

    GERARD: you are nissing into the pind!!

    (The way things are going with increased moderation, half of these comments should be deleted on Tues, so what the hell!)
    _______________________

    “Your out of your league Liz. You havent offerred anything that has convinced anyone here otherwise. I disagree with feminsism and marxism. I can get as technical and detailed about why as you like as you like. Who cares how old I am? Old enough. Its not your age that counts but what you leearn with your years. Back up your thoeries with arguement rather than keep asking everybody what their life experience is or how rich or poor they are. It matters not Liz. You have annoyed and lost respect from just about everyone you have engaged here.”
    ———–

    Now Michael;-you are veering into the twilight zone. This little number (when I deciphered it) is
    a wee tad naughty, don’t you think?

    ‘Your (sic) out of your league’ : a put-down to suggest superiority (with the first spelling mistake ..; what superiority?!?)

    ‘I can get technical and detailed’ (over feminsism ((sic)) and marxism ((sic-:capital dear boy, capital)) : …so why didn’t you? Given that you are ‘talking’ to someone ‘out of your league’ ?

    ‘ leearn (sic)….Back up.. thoeries (sic) with…arguement’ (sic).

    THIS is what you learned????

    ‘ You have annoyed and lost respect from just about everyone you have….’

    Congrats. Finally a sentence without any sic bags in it!!

    BUT: yet another disingenuous stab at divide and rule. Where did you arrive at that masterful theory maestro??

    (You of course being the uniting force on this topic ((and others)!!!

    Even Hamstrung our Guru has deemed fit to pass comment on this style and eloquence (with a sense of humour), which is rather sweet don’t you think?

    So? My turn?

    Try it.

    (We’ve got until Tuesday).

  140. Liz45

    NORMON – I was including you in those comments!

  141. Elan

    “Weel all be rooned….”

    LOVE THAT BtB !!!!

  142. Norman Hanscombe

    Aaaahhhh. Thanks for the explanation, Lizzie, even if it does in turn raise another question, this time re your communication skills. And it would probably increase Jesse’s embarrassment.

    But apparently you are trying?

  143. Liz45

    That’s OK normie! Worry not! Mypleasure! When it comes to basic human rights, neither Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela would make you see any sense of justice beinb required. You only know one level of argument – gutter level!

    One was killed for speaking out, the other jailed by criminals for 27!
    Which one are you? The assassin or the jailer?

  144. Liz45

    normie- Incidently, Jesse Street is a heroine of mine. There’s even a song about her, written by Judy Small? Know it do you? Or is it only her name you remember?

  145. Liz45

    normie – “(Lizzie)even if it does in turn raise another question, this time re your communication skills.”
    My communication skills are fine. I spent almost 10 yrs in the infant’s department of a state school, so even you should be able to follow my words- perhaps your comprehension skills need a brush up?

    However, in another week I’ll be spending time with 3 grandkids who are in primary school – I’ll test them out with my skills? They haven’t had a problem up until this point? Even as toddlers? I also had a long chat this morning with my lovely grand-daughter of almost 17 – no probs there either! Must be you!Or perhaps your arrogance is just smothering all rational thought processes! Dear! Dear! There’s a lot of it about!

  146. Liz45

    normie dear! OH yes, when I spoke to the grandkids they said they’re looking forward to my spending a week with them. Gee, I must be doing something right! They’re pretty smart cookies! (that’s part of my role in life that you approve of, isn’t it mickyj?)

  147. Norman Hanscombe

    Suffering from a mental stammer, Ms45? FOUR posts to say so little?

    I don’t know the song, Lizzie, only knew Jesse. She regularly visited our home and (despite their very different social backgrounds) spent a lot of time discussing politics and social issues with my grandmother who, despite having left her small Qld school at 13, was in a very different class from you when it comes to literacy/analytical skills.

    I merely sat and listened to them, because while my literacy level may have exceeded where you’re at now, my self-confidence then was no match for what yours obviously is now. The advantage was that listening attentively to the ideas of rational people can be a valuable learning tool — provided always, of course, that you can follow what they’re saying?
    .

    I’ll never understand, however, your enthusiasm for attacking people’s allegedly — what was your quaint phrase — “gutter level” arguments? Have you ever thought about sitting down (prefereably not in a gutter, now that it’s winter) and trying to work out why the term ‘human rights’ has meant so many different things to different people? You might realise then that it’s become little more than a catch-all label, covering whatever the individual wants to grant special status, without actually checking out the logical basis for that belief.

    I’m sure though, Lizzie, that your heart’s in the right place, even if the same isn’t true of the head. No thoughtful head would have been so confident (especially on such flimsy evidence) that I had to fit into one of your two strange categories.

    You may have spent those years in an Infants school, but don’t forget that the standard of trainees has collapsed since the peak in the late 60s, as a result of dropping the Teacher Training Scholarships. Sadly, anyone boasting about being able to enter teaching long ago became a joke. I’m sure your grandkids love you, but some might believe you need to set a higher literacy level than that before doling out self-praise?

    Except, of course, that for some decades now we’ve been so busy deluding anyone who’ll listen with such sadly unjustified high self-esteem, that it’s no wonder people assume making wild statements is worthy of a Nobel Prize. So it’s not entirely your fault, Ms 45.

  148. mickyj

    Ok ELAN. You’ve got me. It was atrocious spelling. You’ve found my weak spot as did numerous professors of mine while at uni (many years ago LIZ). Yes true to form, I am very naughty not conforming as usual. So to satisfy and indulge your obsession with spelling and grammar (which are not unimportant I admit) allow me to respond to the substance of your last message. Oh! Hang on. Apart from the spelling corrections and grammar there is nothing worth responding to. One thing I have LEARNT about blogs is when your opponents have nothing to say they go for your spelling.

  149. Elan

    Are you REALLY such a dimwit???

    WHY do you think I drew attention to your errors??

    Go on;-have a bloody guess!

  150. mickyj

    VENISE: “Bastard.” and “LIZ: Hang in there. Feminism isn’t my bag, being the reason I can’t support you with facts. This would weaken your argument.

    Venise your last post is tantamount to saying. “I don’t understand your view point but I will support you in the face of our mutual enemy because you and I are both women. Here’s a philosphical blank cheque for you (Liz) to present in my name. How brave and stupid and obvious.

  151. Elan

    And it’s learned NOT learnt.

    (Go to Google-and get iSpell/ install. It is simple and handy. No sarcasm meant).

    And it IS ‘meant’ NOT meaned. Who can figure the English language!

  152. Liz45

    Somewhere between listening to those conversations and now, you went horribly wrong. A bit like the equivalent of an ‘uncle tom.’ I didn’t say what years I spent in the schools or what I was doing? You didn’t assume did you? Put me in another little box?

    (your facetious use of ‘Ms’ reminds me of the then Infant’s mistress and her insistence with the Principal, an egotistical misogynist, that all the females wished to use Ms, whether or not they were married – this was in 1979-80? 30 yrs ago – most amusing at the time?)
    ( There’s another post that is still awaiting the moderator – no longer than your last one, so? who knows!)

    “the term ‘human rights’ has meant so many different things to different people? You might realise then that it’s become little more than a catch-all label, covering whatever the individual wants to grant special status, without actually checking out the logical basis for that belief.”

    How many “logical basis” have to be offered re abuse by husbands/partners against women and kids, before it’s worthy of some import in your view?
    When discussing the future population and desired priorities of a civilized country and its people, the emotional/physical/human rights of all its peoples are an integral and important part – or they should be in my view. Money and a comfortable home don’t mean a lot when you’re violated each day – with or without children!

    Fortunately, the United Nations agrees with me – that the violence towards women is a most serious crime around the world, which includes Australia! White Ribbon Day in this country is growing each yr. All the activities are the initiatives of active men from many walks of life. Check it out on the WRD website! There are lots of wonderful men who’ve ‘taken the pledge’ against violence towards women – not to condone it, not to remain silent, and to actively campaign against it. Kevin Rudd launched the ‘I Swear’ program last yr.

    mickyj’s attitude to women is far away from any sense of justice – yours is not much better! Those who are so against striving for the human rights of others, are usually fearful of losing some of their own power – your position perhaps? Not that you’d own up to it!

  153. Norman Hanscombe

    Talking of credibility, elan, even a moderate level of literacy would have enabled you to pick uo the fact that I referred to TWO persons in the post, but it set off only ONE of them in an attempt to ‘correct’ my material. Surely, by your apparent self-appointed role as paladin of shielas in distress, you’d agree it would have been most discourteous of me to not try to help her realise her shortcomings and simply ignore what she attempted to say?

    As for attempting to ‘elevate’ myself — by comparison with whom? You do set the bar low.

  154. mickyj

    Going to Google right now. Thanks.

  155. Venise Alstergren

    I’ve had a long and excellent lunch, followed by a good sleep, and thought I’d drop in here to see what’s going on.

    Ah! Oh dear! A bloodbath? A bloodbath of spelling mistakes certainly.

    LIZ: Are you OK?

    Well the topic got well and truly stonkered. Pity.

  156. Venise Alstergren

    @MICKEYJ@ELAN: Make sure the Google spell checker is adapted for Oz use. I was stuck with an American system until I found an Oz version buried deep in the bowels of my machine.

    Have fun.

  157. baal

    MICKYJ Can’t help yourself, can you?

  158. Bob the builder

    @ Venise
    Please don’t leave yourself open to jokes about the bowels of your machine.
    PS People who can spell don’t need spell checka.

  159. Venise Alstergren

    MICKYJ: You’ve had your fun. Time to lay off the lady, don’t you think?

  160. Norman Hanscombe

    Type in a brief response to posts while you’re on the phone, take another call, then ping the posters are off and running again.

    1. Elan, believe it or not, there are two accepted options for spelling some words in English, and that’s one of those words. As for spellcheck, it’s for fairly basic English only.

    2.Liz45, I assumed you were a teacher, but even if you were an Infants pupil for ten years, the problem of declining standards of literacy remains.

    As for decisions made by the United Nations or any other body for that matter, they’re a political matter. I have no problem accepting the political motives behind such pronouncements. The absence of anything more than the hazy, shifting sands associated with the changing definitions of human rights is, however an interesting philosophical issue, and isn’t addressed by simply quoting whatever the current political zeitgeist happens to be proclaiming as ‘true’.

    If it makes you feel better to denigrate my alleged ‘decline’, go for it. If you’re correct though, I’m puzzled why so many who on the face of it would appear to have stronger — far stronger — backgrounds than your ten years in an infants classroom, and know even more about me than you do, have all failed to pick up the weaknesses you spotted immediately.

    So congrats on your (well-hidden) talents.

  161. mickyj

    Venise: You underestimate our little LIz. She told me to go a commit suicide 3 times the other day simply because 1. I didnt agree with her 2. because I am a man & 3. because I am a classical paleo – conservative as well as being of course a bastard as you have identified.

  162. mickyj

    Baal: You’re right man I can’t.

  163. Venise Alstergren

    BOB THE BUILDER: Why do you think I used those words in that context? Bingo!

    MICKYJ: I wasn’t calling you a bastard, I was slinging off at the bloody moderating machine which is holding back two comments I made about over population.

  164. Venise Alstergren

    MICKEYJ: You jump to astonishing conclusions. The last time I was in a drag race with some wretched scientologist, three weeks ago? Maybe more maybe less. Liz leaped to support me. I was merely letting her know I was with her in my thoughts.

    Also I was heading off to a long lunch and didn’t have time to support her.

    You don’t seem to have much luck in reading my character do you?

  165. Liz45

    VENISE – I’m fine thank you! I submitted a comment at about 3pm but it’s still awaiting the moderator’s decision?

    mickyj – An article in the Sun Herald, Feb 26 ’09, headed,
    “Millionaires blasted for claiming pensions”? by Stephanie Peatling.

    “The pension system is so badly organised, that more than 50,000 people with disposable income of more than $60,000 receive the age pension, and a further 14 per cent are paid the benefit despite their assets being worth $1.6 million.
    The Brotherhood of St Laurence, which commissioned research into the pension system, wants the Federal Govrnment to include owner occupied homes in the means test for the pension to stop payments going to people who do not need them.
    “The system is a mess and in dire need of reform” the Brotherhood’s general manager of communications and development, Nicola Ballenden said. “The system is looking after people who earned money throughout their lifetime, but is not looking after people at the bottom”
    SINGLE AGED WOMEN(my emphasis) were the most disadvantaged group because they were less likely to own property or have savings. Nearly two thirds of women in the pre-retirement age group, from 55-64- had less than $20,000 in superannuation making them the most likely recipients of the age pension. Pensioners living in private rental accommodation were also badly off, with 83% having less than $20 a week to top up their pension.”

    When you add this to the millionaires who also received Family Benefits and lots of other forms of middle income welfare, those people who only have a pension as income are living beneath the poverty line and worse. Those who have to pay private rent are living in a hideous position. I heard of one elderly man who paid 80% of his pension in rent? Yes, I’m most grateful I can assure you!
    There’s more-track it down if you wish!

    The pain medication was prescribed via a pain clinic at a major Sydney Hospital, led by a specialist who’d seen me 20 years before, and after all other attempts to manage the horrific pain had failed. It’s very stringently supervised. I wouldn’t even wish the need for it on you MICKYJ! That’s really big of me as you’re a very nasty and insensitive little twit! Incidently, I’ve met even worse excuses for human ‘flotsam and jetsom’ than you! Not that many, I agree, but they’re out there!

  166. Liz45

    mickyj – The reason many single aged woman are not financially independent, is the sexist policies of the past re superannuation(which you’d obviously support today-with your misogynist hat on of course) and also, as many women whose marriages/relationships had broken were not given a fair settlement re their divorce(for the reasons stated – of which you’d also support?) and they had to start over again to buy furniture etc they were financially disadvantaged. My charming x(who now lives in another home etc with super etc)a most revolting and violent person, wouldn’t even allow me to have one of 3 desks no longer required, as 2 of my sons were not living at home! I didn’t get even one pot plant out of the many(a lovely greenhouse)that I’d bought and nurtured for several yrs, not even a cup or saucer – nought! Not worth the effort I said – move on!

    Oh yes, my eldest sons gave me a ‘computer chair’ that he gave to them – they were working- I needed it they said! It’s so nice to know that they didn’t inherit the ‘revolting person gene’? What’s your excuse then?

  167. Bogan

    Please see these photos of the shoddy building and construction work at Docklands http://anticharisma.com/wordpress/?p=20 and tell me if we even have the know how or the zeal to accomplish the building of enough infrastructure to service more worker ants imported from the 2.5 odd BILLION sized populations that dream of living here. I mean note how even a door is constructed with foam core on oone building, so flimsy its dodgy as.

  168. Liz45

    norman – “2.Liz45, I assumed you were a teacher, but even if you were an Infants pupil for ten years, the problem of declining standards of literacy remains.”

    And you know this because? Yours is so brilliant? Well, in that case, you’d better hope they do some remedial work, as they’ll be dealing out your medication in yrs to come? When you either acquire some form of dementia or need looking after for some other reason. Better stay healthy and fit! There’s some pretty well educated people doing amazing things, so?

    My intention was to be a teacher. I sat for the mature aged entrance exam in intractable pain and using my rest splint at regular intervals to rest my painful hand with horribly swolen fingers – I passed very well! Imagine if I was fit and well? I’d been a teachers aide, hence the workplace injury! Slack bloody govt wouldn’t spend money on either electrical or proper functioning equipment! They were proven to have exercised negligence! 26+ yrs of awful pain later?

  169. mickyj

    Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned LIZ

  170. mickyj

    WHo would have predicted that a micro cephaloid like Bob Carr could generate so much comment?

  171. mickyj

    Liz is watching the Biggest Looser on TEN – her favourite show. Next favourite is that cheer squad for the flaccid left – The 7:30 Show on TEN. God I hate channel TEN. What a bunch of Reality morons they are.

  172. mickyj

    Bob Carr – Master Salesman. Glorious son of the left in parliament – gets a job with Crony capitalist central Mac Bank.

  173. baal

    What’s the plan: last man standing or dead man walking?

  174. mickyj

    Whats your choice Baal?

  175. baal

    MickyJ I’ll leave it to you

  176. Norman Hanscombe

    Liz, you ask how I know. Merely being interested & observant can often help. For example in ‘48, as a pupil, after looking at past syllabuses and test papers, I realised standards had been eased. Only later did I learn this had happened as a wartime decision, ‘43 from memory. In ‘55, before becoming a teacher, I took an interest in standards and found, e.g., that at the time Qld primary school students were ahead of other States in spelling. In the late 60s, after having left teaching, I was interested to find NSW primary students had (as the result of the highly effective reading scheme then I use) improved so much that State-wide I.Q. norms had to be raised by five points —a highly significant jump. The Department then threw out the scheme, and reading comprehension in NSW schools fell off again. Is that enough?
    I’ve never deemed myself, as you put it, “Brilliant”, but over the decades I have come to suspect there might be people out there who aren’t particularly strong in some academic areas. As for “medication in yrs to come”, I’m already over the hill intellectually, but haven’t sought that sort of help. After all, I’m coming downhill, but I’ve still a very long way to go before I reach a point where the competition is a challenge.
    I feel for your trauma in that Mature Age “examination”, liz, but can’t get too excited about your result, as I’m aware of how ‘demanding’ those courses are. I entered tertiary education via a University Matriculation Exam, but they dropped that form of entry decades back, because they needed something less demanding if they were to fill all the expanded places. With your writing standards, just be grateful you didn’t have to sit it.
    I shan’t bore you with details of being wiped out in a car accident, written of as a DOA (although that prognosis proved a tad over-pessimistic) missing the entire final third of the year, then — but it’s not about me is it? After all, I was a lucky working class male from a sole parent home, with a mother working in a clothing factory. I feel embarrassed not acknowledging all my advantages.
    Did I overlook anything important, liz? Please let me know if I did.

  177. mickyj

    Still smart though.

  178. mickyj

    “In the late 60’s, after having left teaching, I was interested to find NSW primary students had (as the result of the highly effective reading scheme then I use) improved so much that State-wide I.Q. norms had to be raised by five points — -a highly significant jump. The Department then threw out the scheme, and reading comprehension in NSW schools fell off again. Is that enough?”

    Yes Norm the last thing the government wants is a population of people who are intelligent and can think critically. Hence the fluoride in the water and the qaulity of TV and education we have. Plus all the doctrine they spoon feed us suckers like feminism for one.

  179. Norman Hanscombe

    Not as old as my grandmother, of course, who unfortunately is dead, because otherwise she’d be running rings around liz et al. Sorry, that’s an unfair comment. Gran had the immense advantage of being taught by literate teachers right up to her 13th birthday. You don’t receive that sort of advantage these days.

    One drawback of being so old is it mellows you, so you end up letting your detractors get away with too much. But I haven’t had a decnt debate since the Republic Referendum, so life tends to drag somewhat at times.

    p.s. I often find there are people around FAR older than I am, even though many of them were born well after I was. How can that be?

  180. baal

    MICKYJ Why hesitate to add yourself as a further example of the conspiracy to reduce the quality of human intelligence work?

  181. baal

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE I distinctly remember noticing senility set in amongst my school mates around the age of 12.

  182. Elan

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  183. Elan

    Nice one BAAL.
    ______________________

    Well…..the “check” and the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WERE checks.

    I am being prevented from posting any substantive comment.

    I am fairly sure who is doing this.

    Let’s see if this one goes up..

    I am going to be in touch with Crikey on Tuesday.

  184. Venise Alstergren

    MICKYJ: Although agreeing with you about governments-of every shade, the at times limited Left, but mostly with the clowns who think they were born to rule, the misnamed Liberal Party, not to mention the socialist party of the rural brigade cunningly named the National Party aka ‘The Everything Belongs to us Party’.

    “So I say bugger the environment and tax everyone witless, because we, the National Country Party deserve to be subsidised. Without us you lot would starve. We support the RSL. to the hilt by encouraging Oz youth to fight for our superior allies, the Americans, during their continually losing-after WWII, and Korea-wars.
    They saved us from the Japanese at the Battle of the Coral Sea and we owe them our ever-lasting love. F/uck the bloody Poms they screwed Australia when they lost to the Japanese at Singapore.

    “And we are as right-wing as it possible to be, except when it suits us to rip more money out of everyone’s taxes. This is when we show our adaptability. We change our philosophy of lofty superiority, to the money grubbing stance of the socialist left in order to declare ‘What’s yours is ours, and what’s ours remains ours’. Shades of Uncle Joe, or Chairman Mao anyone?

    “Finally, you city folk should lean to live without water because it all belongs to us and our irrigating, monolithic pals such as the folks who own Cubbie Station.

    “Contrary to you what you parasites in the cities believe, we love our Sheilas, especially when they are chained to their ironing boards, being pregnant, and working like a drover’s dog to sustain our kids, cook for the shearers, and become members of the CWA. But we love them most of all when they run around after us.

    Have any of youse gotta problem with this?” He turns to whistle up the border collie who jumps up into the ute and the wind removes yet another layer of dried up soil.

  185. mickyj

    Venise, This last post of your is very hard to read. Who are you quoting? Example: ” And we are as right -wing as it is possible to be. ….” etc.

    Please clarify.

  186. gerard

    The nicest way to cook them is to cut off the tips. I mix 2 spoonfuls of olive oil with chopped up garlic, some chilli with fresh coriander, some sweet soya sauce with a teaspoon of vinegar. Poor the lot over the chicken wings (sans tips). After marinating for a hour or so, I cook the lot on the Webber.
    A pity males are excuded from the CWA. I often peer inside their shows to get the latest on their cupcakes technique.

  187. Venise Alstergren

    @MICKYJ@NORMAN HANSCOMBE: Pardon me. It was an attempt at irony. In my, albeit limited, experience the people who can’t hack irony are usually the people who are close, physically or metaphorically, to the victims of irony. In this case being the conservative parties.

    The Post was wandering all over the place, and had become boring. I decided to liven it up a bit. Also I lurve bucketing the Nashos.

    NORMAN: Sorry to disappoint you-metaphorically-but the only thing that was worrying me was tiredness. I’m not denying that I like a drink. It just didn’t happen to be the case last night.

    OK?

  188. Norman Hanscombe

    [Post on the topic rather than each other please – Mod]

  189. Elan

    OK . Let’s see.

    Mickey: I tried to congratulate in your post correcting my spelling. It was a fair cop and it really tickled me!!

    Hamstrung: In your post of 4/4-5.21 pm you talk of moderate levels of literacy.

    You of course, would know…., just with that post alone. I do hope you have the capacity to pick up on your own errors in said post??

    Your need to correct ‘her’ shortcomings….is somewhat moot don’t you think?

    Talk about setting the bar so low eh??

    (Maybe it was using ‘spellcheck’ -with its ‘fairly basic English’ ?)

    I was referring to iSpell-an oldie and a goodie. You should try it…………………

    As for the two options. I disagree. Ahhhh! that spellcheck thing again…

  190. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: Please refrain from telling me what I must, or must not, do, if for no other reason that your comment tells the reader a lot more about yourself than it does about me.

    Also tell your friend that “as right wing as we can possibly be” translates as we are so right wing (Left wing, insert the required word) that we end up marching up our own backsides. (Or fundamental orifices)

    As for your criticism of my irony, IMHO it doesn’t read too badly. Important AND you sure as hell bit hard. Did you not?

  191. Venise Alstergren

    ELAN: Do you mean they ‘moderated’ you just on your name?

    It would make sense because of my experience of being moderated at First Dog where the comments are mostly directed at humour.

    Thanks for this bit of info.

    Cheers 🙂

  192. Elan

    [It appears the specific post you are referring to ended up in spam – which we don’t look at – not sure why it did – will follow up tomorrow – Mod]

    I’m unsure because I can’t prove……..To say anymore would be scurrilous, because I have no proof.

    I have recently experienced a situation where I COULD post on the partic topic; -on anything BUT what that topic was discussing.

    At first I thought it was a comp glitch,-then it became clear that I was being censored (NOT modded) from posting an opinion.

    This was NOT Crikey proper. That is all I can say.

    Crikey does not respond to any email, but they DID fix the ‘problem’.

    Last night a post ‘vapourised’ . Again, I didn’t pick up on it. When I did;-I could post anything as you see;-but not on the topic…………., or to be fair;-not on the heated discussion we are currently having here.

    Today I was able to post by structuring that post as carefully as I could. As you see it posted.

    It seems logical to me that if one can actually post- yet not post in a manner that responds to the current discussion-then it is equally logical to suggest that such is open, at the very least, to conjecture..
    _________________________

    Anyway, I cannot see most all of the latter part of this thread remaining. Deviating from the topic is one thing,-but we have all veered well away from the original topic., occasionally paying lip service to it!!

    We might see a lot of italics tomorrow, or perhaps a closed thread?

    Make hay………………..!!

  193. Elan

    [Edited for excessive insults and not addressing the issues – Mod]

  194. Liz45

    Well folks – we now have a Minister for? of? Population, Tony Bourke? Can you believe it? There was a discussion(not very long mind you)on ABC radio this morning. A couple of callers made the observation, that as far as infrastructure is concerned, we’re already in deep trouble, as we’ve ‘created’ artificial water already. There’s a Desalination plant in Sydney, one is intended for Wonthaggi, Vic(lots of opposition-haven’t heard anything about it for a while though?); BHP Billiton is ‘creating’ one for the extension of Olympic Dam uranium mining venture(which is to be increased-heaps) that was using lots and lots of water each day without charge by the Rann govt, while the people in Adelaide were almost out of the stuff!(Another one of your big holes in the ground VENISE?)

    Someone else offered the view, that he’ll probably be another Minister of Spin? He’s to have a report ready by year’s end? The mind boggles!

  195. Norman Hanscombe

    1. I’m sure Bob will understand, elan, why you don’t find his views ‘riveting’, they’re not in line with your deeply held, and I’m sure genuine, beliefs. As for anyone being patronising [n.b. no ‘z’ again?] towards you, it’s unfortunate that you’re so touchy about your literacy shortcomings. I’ve worked with very mediocre students at times, and found that IF they concentrated on understanding what their shortcomings were, as opposed to shooting the messenger, it was surprising how much they could improve.

    But I forget. The main interest for many these days is boosting self-esteem, not the hard work of tackling shortcomings, and thus gaining a reason for the greater self-confidence we’re constantly told is so ‘important’. Best wishes anyway. I really do understand your personal dilemma.

    2. Liz, it’s a mistake to assume politicians of any stipe, even the Greens, are doing much more than window dressing with any conservation ‘plan’ . With Desalination plants, it’s largely so people will feel something is being done. Whether nuclear power is ‘good/bad’ changes over time. The Labor Party was enthusiastic about it once.

    Even such currently emotively powerful issues such as whales have undergone spectacular (if hardly noticed) changes. Once the Labor Party condemned their opponents for selling off a Government whaling station. Nowadays? Then there was the furore (before my time on this one) because Labor’s opponents sold off Government butcher shops. May sound like I’m joking, but it actually happened.

    Politicians sometimes implement bad decisions because their critics, while high on confidence, aren’t quite as effective when it comes to carefully researched, logically argued cases. On the other hand, it’s often a mistake to assume automatically that politicians are hide their ‘true’ motives. They can be just as blindly confident they’re the ones in the right, as can their critics who are certain the only ‘truth’ is represented by what the protesters believe.

  196. Venise Alstergren

    Hi LIZ: It is difficult to believe. Also, if the spin was any greater we would end up in one of those American twisters.

    Tony Bourke as a sort of roving ambassador to keep would be immigrants at bay and prevent people from have excessive amounts of children? My mind reels. I saw him on Q&A last Monday and thought the man was a total hick.

    The desalination plant at Wonthaggi is going ahead despite all the opposition. Dear Mr Brumby, he confuses obstinacy with ego. This is the man who squandered over ONE BILLION DOLLARS of the Victorian tax-payers money on a quaint ticketing system called Myki-which has been an abject failure. For some reason or other, the damned thing just doesn’t work.

    Not content with that he went ahead with an even sorrier scheme to build a ‘Northern Pipeline’ from the Ovens (?) Goulburn (?) river to Melbourne, thus depriving the local farmers of their much needed water. And ho ho ho. Guess what? You did, well done. 🙂 Yep, it too has been a calamitous failure.

    As for the desalination plant, they got the contract by dint of being one of the biggest companies in the world. And no, I wasn’t thinking one could accuse the state government of payola; would I?

    I shan’t hold my breath for Bourke’s report. They will just stuff around for another ten years or so. This country is run by the indefensible for the benefit of big business. What will they do when the mines give out?

  197. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: Why whould you irritate me? You are just not big enough to do that.

  198. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: You shouldn’t confuse the words too and to.

  199. Venise Alstergren

    LIZ: Good call on Israel; A few comments back.

  200. Liz45

    VENISE – I have a soft spot for Wonthaggi. My late father was born there, and the 6 siblings preceeding me were also born there. I’m the first born in NSW. I didn’t think the opponents would win(I wonder why?) but ‘hope springs eternal’ etc! It sounds as though Brumby isn’t much better than NSW govt – and that’s saying heaps!

    NSW Labor just lurch from one disaster to the next – it looks as though they can’t even sell of the ‘family jewells’ without stuffing it up. They sold off State Lotteries but committed a giant blunder during the discussions – promising one only of more bounty, and now they could be tied up in the courts, costing us heaps while it’s sorted! Mind you, the other mob aren’t much better.

    If the Libs win, we’ll have Opus Dei, a far right catholic mob with ? number of members in the govt? Scary thought isn’t it? Our state govt also sacked 2 councils, and deprived us of our democratic rights for 4 yrs – which of course takes us past the election date next March? Convenient? The ALP will get a trouncing in both the state election and local govt when we next get the chance to vote. I will not be voting for the conservatives of course. The Greens in NSW are very impressive and work very hard.
    In the meantime, we have Administrators in! The city of one council now has parking meters – something the Labor controlled council would probably never have done? Ho Hum! On and on it goes! I’m hoping for some pretty good independent people to stand. The community is pretty fired up after the sackings-people working on exposing the alleged corruption etc. Still wating for some to have their day in court defending corruption allegations by the ICAC?

  201. Norman Hanscombe

    [Post on the issues please – Mod]

  202. Venise Alstergren

    [Edit – you can’t say those things about other commenters. Please focus on the issues rather than each other. Mod]

  203. Liz45

    mickyj
    Posted Sunday, 4 April 2010 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned LIZ”

    No mate, I left him. And if I’d had the guts to ‘do him in’, I’d have pleaded justifiable homicide! That’s what mongrels deserve! Perhaps you’d have awarded him a medal? Every dog has his day – his turn will come! I hope so anyway! ‘Mr, I’m a respectable member of the community’?

    Venise – I’ve been on a few websites re the Palestinian people, and get ‘Palestinian Think Tank’ delivered via email each day. It’s worse than sad and disgusting isn’t it? The oppressed have become oppressors! Julia & Rudd fawn all over Israel? I find it sickening. Julie Irwin(ALP) has a lot of guts and has spoken in Parlt several times – after Rudd’s last revolting snivelling act? Amazing how they cherry pick who and what are terrorists and terrorist acts isn’t it? They choose to completely ignore the terror by the lethal actions of Israel. I read only recently, that Palestinian rockets have only killed 30 people over many yrs(sad as that is) while Israel killed 1400 and injured many more in Dec ’08-Feb’09 – but we’ll just ignore that little stat?

  204. baal

    So, this is social media/networking: rude people, vicious abuse of total strangers, bad spelling and grammar, recipe-swaps, erratic intervention by the moderator, pompous disquisition on pet themes and hobby horses, more insults, rambling recollections, pointless anecdotes. Yeah, just like being down the pub except you’d never go there cos of the music of the pokies. And if you did you’d get the tripe knocked out of you

  205. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: I saw your com in my email, but can’t find it here.
    If you were to give me your word you’ll stop doing it I would let it rest. But you aren’t like that; you wont let it rest?

    LIZ warned me about how you scientologists play mind games and badger people all the time. But it’s more than just the writing isn’t it? It’s become an obsession with you. Or was it me calling you a v sick puppy which turned you into a freak?

    You leave me no option but to seek outside advice.

  206. Norman Hanscombe

    VA, what on earth are you rambling on about now? Anyone who’s read what I’ve said about Scientology and doesn’t realize Liz’s bizarre ‘warning’ is indicative only of her severe problem with English, isn’t even ready for a discussion in Baal’s Pub. In any case, IF I really wanted to play “mind games” (and I don’t) it would be with adults more intellectually challenging — not to mention literate — than your self-defence harem scarum unit.

    Talking of problems with language, can’t you muster anything a tad more effective than your above ‘comment’? As for seeking “outside advice”, I recommend you start with a competent language tutor: master that discipline and move on to a teacher of BASIC logic; then finally — if all else has failed — have a look at other possibilities it would be unkind to mention unless it proved there was no other way out for you .

    In the meantime, it might not be wise for you to try to come to grips with the intricacies of the Palestine/Israel quagmire, or you’ll become even more mired than is the case with responding (in a manner of speaking) Bob Carr’s original item.

  207. Liz45

    BAAL – There’s only so much one can say about increased population – over 4 days? Most of my spelling mistakes have been typos – laziness in other words! I think the important thing is communicating, although norman doesn’t think I’m very good at that! Unlike his good self, who is superior to us/most mortal beings? Must be good! I’m usually pretty good at spelling. Human beings eh? Got the full bit here! I made a resolution once, that I won’t put up with peoples’ grotty behaviour. If everyone else tells the rude bastards to cut it, perhaps they will?

    VENISE – Re being stalked. I didn’t know NORMAN H was a scientologist? I’ve missed something? Makes sense now. They’re pretty obsessed and determined to denigrate anyone who challenges their yukky attitudes and behaviours! As we asserted on that post neither of us were impressed with them. Worse than that other mob that knock on your day at the most inopportune times!

    I had a run in with them yrs ago. I’m usually polite, firm and just state that I’m not interested, but…It was yrs ago and my 2 eldest were only toddlers. These people knocked on the door as I was emptying boiling water from the copper(tough going)into the washing machine-I had to pick up both kids, take them with me to the door etc. After a few instances of this, I opened the door the next time, shouted, “why don’t you go and get a proper job instead of tormenting busy people”, and slammed the door. Funny, they didn’t come back!

    If you’re really concerned, do something tomorrow – ring up Crikey or send an email! The young woman I’ve spoken to re subscriptions sounds really nice – I’m sure they’ll be pro-active!

  208. Liz45

    VENISE – Wait for it! We’re going to learn the real facts about the awful situation in Gaza etc via the one and only expert! Neither you nor I would know enough to be able to form an opinion – that’s his domain!

    NORMAN – Do you ever listen to yourself? Are you really that bloody arrogant and full of your own importance? Are you like it all the time, or does it just happen when nobody can see you; when you can hide behind a false name? Do you behave like this with people face to face? Do you think your own s**t stinks? Or is that as pure as? So now your opinion on Israel/Palestinine is superior to anyone else’s? How do you know VENISE or I aren’t Palestinian people, or related to some, or maybe visited there or read a lot, or just observe etc? Gee you’re an egotistical person? Is there anything about your opinion that may attract scrutiny and then dissention? No, of course not! Silly me!

    Don’t go out in the wind will you? Those tickets will fly all over the place! Neighbours mightn’t be happy with all that potential compost all over the place! I’ve met some arrogant, egotistical, oppressive, rude, obnoxious even people, but you’re up there with the best.

    Your communication skills aren’t perfect, and you’ve made your share of mistakes re spelling etc also – you’re just too damned perfect in your own brain to see them!
    None so blind as those who refuse to see! That’s you! Take a look in the mirrow!

  209. Norman Hanscombe

    Thank you, ladies, for providing such an excellent example of the sort of faulty logic which arises not merely from your problems with language, but also the problem of letting your emotions blind you to the information you THINK you’re processing.

    STEP 1. VA ‘thinks’ L45 has said X is a Scientologist.

    STEP 2. VA accuses X of being a Scientologist, and recounts “sad” experiences with them.

    STEP 3. L45 then tells VA she hadn’t ‘known’ until now that X was a Scientologist.

    STEP 4. To help strengthen their ‘discovered’ belief, L45 then recounts ‘sad’ experiences with her Scientologists.

    CONCLUSION
    Both VA & L45 are well-meaning (but not especially observant/analytically inclined) participants in the discussion, and consequently are caught up with — well, does it really matter WHY they make such basic errors? Clearly they don’t worry about their shortcomings — especially if they’re only rubbishing a mere male.

    p.s. Baal, I believe this relieves you of protective picket duty, so enjoy the Pub. I’m off in a moment to somewhere the internet doesn’t reach. I hope they don’t miss me too much.

  210. mickyj

    And you lot think I am a wing nut!

  211. Liz45

    NORMAN – “In the meantime, it might not be wise for you to try to come to grips with the intricacies of the Palestine/Israel quagmire, or you’ll become even more mired than is the case with responding (in a manner of speaking) Bob Carr’s original item.”

    You might like to read this again and tidy up the grammar? It is rambling, incoherent and devoid of any punctuation!

  212. Norman Hanscombe

    Sorry VA, but even if I thought you were ready to discuss that issue, THIS site isn’t about it – have a look at the heading. As for hiding the name ANON poster, unlike you I use my name. It would be absurd to think, as you imply, that I know more about it than anyone else – but knowing more about it than you would be an extremely small claim to make.

    What either of us thinks about our relative abilities is hardly of any significance. As for whether or not you two are Palestinian, etc, being that (or being Jewish for that matter) tends to end up with blind emotive inability to understand other sides to this complicated dispute.
    Thank you for noting I omitted a preposition in my last hurried post. It will be far more gratifying, however, if you attempt to understand the logical peculiarities of your attempts to transform me into a Scientologist. Who knows, eventually you may even come to understand that while your assumptions and odd logic may lead you and Scientologists to very different conclusions, you DO share a common faith-based approached, Different faiths, of course, but an equivalent modus operandi.
    Finally, be grateful I don’t trumpet what teachers/academics have said about my written efforts (in situations such as tests where I concentrated more, and could use a pen) or you ‘d really have reason to complain. But now I really do have to depart.

  213. Venise Alstergren

    LIZ: Don’t worry, I’m onto it. Do you remember a MAROUBRAMAN on the Bernard Keane article “Senate Inquires: Sport yes, Abuse no” (12 March ’10). His first comment was at 4.49pm, and he had approx 60 entries on that subject.

    The next time was the Margaret Simons article: Time for Conroy to Deliver (25 March ’10) Still writing under the name of MAROUBRAMAN he had but 4 comments to make. Including a suggestion that I may be stalking him.

    Then we get to the Bob Carr article: Why Our Cities Will Really Choke With Population Growth (1 April ’10) and a NORMAN HANSCOMBE makes his appearance.

    I spotted the syntax resemblance and the modus operandi when he inadvertently gave the game away. He even acknowledges the fact.

    I know I’m no angel but he is remorseless in his continual comment. As I told him, “I’ve been stalked by experts and I know a stalker when I see one”. I’d be grateful if you could also keep an eye on me LIZ. Please?

  214. Liz45

    VENISE – Of course I will!

    I do recall those sites you mention, and MAROUBRAN kept on when almost everyone else left. I think there was only ELAN who was determined that he wouldn’t have the last say. He obviously supported the treatment dished out to those unsuspecting members who were treated in an appalling manner. He’s so full of his own capabilites and sense of self, it’s almost funny now. I’ve seen toddlers with those tendancies – they have an excuse? He has none!
    Notice that NORMAN didn’t respond to any of my negative comments – nor did mickyj over his insulting comments re me being on a pension. He doesn’t have a problem with the rich bastards getting his taxes – only those at the bottom of the pile re finances! Typical!

    mickyj – don’t worry. It could be worse – she may have to rely on you? As for your other ridiculous comment – f**k off! You’d be surprised to learn of the numbers of people I’ve helped save from precarious circumstances – sometimes life threatening! Only the Howard govt believed in people being tried for ‘thought crimes’? No doubt you agreed with him/them! You don’t intimidate me at all. In fact, compared to some I’ve met or known of, you’re a pussy cat! Meow!

  215. Venise Alstergren

    MICKYJ: You forget I wasn’t party to your comments with LIZ. And I can see you are so terrified of her. Not!
    So gimme a break until I’ve nailed NORMAN HANSCOMBE/MAROUBRAMAN. Also I’ve gotta eat. So cheer up son, I can tackle you later. Anyway I don’t bear you any animosity. Like I said, I wasn’t even there during your ding dong battle with LIZ.

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE/MAROUBRAMAN: I am quite relaxed about all of this. But, I do like to be safe Doh!

    All I have done is to send the transcript to the appropriate people. I, unlike you, would far rather make a fool of myself than risk myself. Anyhow, you admitted you were one and the same.

    You may call me what you will, even though I’ve told you I’m not a feminist. I haven’t had Liz’s wretched time with men so am not jaundiced about the experience.

    Tell me, does your cult bring out the the insanity in the members of its community; or do the ‘one sandwich short of a picnic’ people just turn to scientology?

  216. Venise Alstergren

    LIZ: Just found another two, see Christopher Joye: We will have 40 million people by 2050 (31 March ’10)

    3 comments down from the top a comment by NORMAN HANSCOMBE. Three comments up from the bottom another comment, this time under the name of MAROUBRAMAN.

  217. Elan

    Holy Dooley!!! I can’t be away for five minutes!!
    __________________

    “Edited for excessive insults and not addressing the issues – Mod]”

    Bum!!! This topic is going at breakneck. So help me, I bloody wish I could remember what I wrote!

    Excessive insults….sod it all, I can’t remember what they were! 🙂 !!

    ……..AND I’m astonished that most of this stuff (incl), has remained;-it has bugger all to do with the long forgotten Bobbity Carr!!

    (The spam thing-much appreciate your checking. It was hellishly frustrating. The (my) post had little to do with this topic though…………..)
    _________________________

    Liz45:He did get the last word though didn’t he……….or did he??
    _________________________

    “1. I’m sure Bob will understand, elan, why you don’t find his views ‘riveting’, they’re not in line with your deeply held, and I’m sure genuine, beliefs. ”

    …….see that? Something quite elementary,-and yet you missed it what I was trying to say.

    Ach! you silly twisted boy!
    ______________________

    BAAL: your post really cracked me up (as does Mickey J’s about the wingnut!!). You are spot on!!

    Sorry ladies, I know we ain’t stood passively, but I’m beginning to wonder if we’ve all been on the woojoo juice!!

  218. Venise Alstergren

    NORMAN HANSCOMBE: You can’t be accurate about anything. You accuse me of straying off post. Yet you, under your name NORMAN HUSHCOMBE stray off the post continually. Don’t you ever reread your own comments?

    You use your own name do you? You didn’t hesitate to stray off post when using your nom de guerre MAROURBRAMAN.

    Under your entries of MAROUBRAMAN you made weird allegations that I was at heart a scientologist. And I reasserted my Atheism. I come from 3 generations of, and have complete belief in Atheism. Although I don’t have Palestinian or Jewish blood in me, it doesn’t stop me from feeling Israel has learned only too well how to inflict the sort of hell the Jews lived, under the German Nazis, onto the Palestinians. Can you not separate Israel from Judaism. Or Nazis from Germans.

    You force me, under your continual inaccuracies, to keep replying to you. At least I have the courtesy to read your ravenings. What kind of parents did you have who encouraged your appalling manners?

    Remember the glee with which you informed everyone what the weak witted and very butch woman with the Norweigan name had said about me? (You’d Googled me; remember?) You even repeated some of her words of fury, and you were so proud of it. God help you when you finally read your own entries.

  219. hbags

    Yes Bob Carr is a massive hypocrite ( and many other words which are not fit for family viewing).
    And perhaps what he is saying is in some way racist or whatever the politically correct word is these days.
    Nonetheless. Most of what he says in that article is bordering on truth.
    So the real question is. Do we protect our borders and therefore our quality of life, or do we extend kindness to our neighboring countries( in a greedy attempt to boost our own economy) and accept a lower quality of life? That can’t be an easy decision for ANY government

  220. Elan

    I agree HBAGS with your first line!, and also agree that this is not an easy problem to tackle.

    Firstly: IF (as you have clearly picked up!), such problem is commented upon by someone who has richly benefited from his public life, -it diminishes rather than enhances the message conveyed.
    It is abundantly clear (!!), that Carr’s comments have created somewhat of a flurry of strong discussion that mutated into a rather more expansive range of topics!!!

    I see that as inevitable. Carr and anyone else is entitled to give an opinion-we have after all the veneer at least of a democracy! I guess what is so irritating, is that ‘public’ figures WILL get their views publicised – and some of these publicised views are coming from those who express them from the rarefied air of their ivory towers.

    THAT is much vexing. It is bloody annoying,-and destroys the credibility of their argument.

    BECAUSE it was Bob Carr, I am not in the least interested in what he has to say.

    Secondly: ‘the system’ always, ALWAYS deals with effect- not cause. I’m not going to repeat what I said early in this thread, but suffice it to say,- unless we look more closely at the causes of this- nothing will ever improve-it will inevitably get worse.

    It is politically expedient for the so called ‘First World’ countries to turn their eyes away from these sorry souls, and more importantly-what causes them to flee.

    It is far easier to condemn them- to use the terminology “WE will decide who comes to our country”. A sentence that should go down in infamy for its calculated desire to encourage a gang mentality against those who HAVE gone though hell.

    The utterly absurd notion that ‘terrorists’ would subject themselves to these dangerous conditions is beyond stupid. As is the ‘they will take our houses’ crap.Yet that has been thrown into the mix, by those who sought to gain public support by generating fear in their community. A historically popular tool used by Governments.

    This ‘problem’ will continue to be a ‘problem’ until Governments face up to the cause.

    And they never will. Because there is nothing to be gained.

  221. Liz45

    @ELAN – “It is politically expedient for the so called ‘First World’ countries to turn their eyes away from these sorry souls, and more importantly-what causes them to flee.”

    I agree! I’m not surprised that there are so many Afghanis among the recent asylum seekers-what’s going on there is just horrific. Ive just finshed reading ‘Raising my Voice” written by Malalai Joye, who was in Australia last yr. She’s one of the few people in the ‘govt’ who was democratically elected, rather than a political ‘plant’ in the Karzai(‘plant’ of the US). She was suspended from the parlt for speaking the truth-even though, those who threatened her with rape, torture and murder were not even rebuked and are still there. Her book is an insight into what is really going on. She was born 4 days after the Russians invaded her country, and there’s been war/s all that time. I got my copy from from my local library, but the major book stores would have it!

    We could help things by not killing innocent civilians and causing misery and destruction! Then, they won’t want to live their own country!

  222. Bela

    “You can’t add millions to the nation’s population and expect a lower tax regime”.

    This is an economically illiterate comment and factually incorrect. In 1980 Australia had a population of about 14 million compared with today’s 22 million, yet both corporate and individual tax rates were considerably higher, as was the tax take as a share of total GDP.

    It is the structure of the economy, not it’s size which has more influence on tax rates – look at the US which has tax rates similar to ours but has 300 million people.

    If anything, a higher amount of total tax (as opposed to per capita) from a larger population might improve our infrastructure by making some necessary projects more viable – eg a very fast train, or dual carriageway roads through more parts of the country.

    Useless in government, useless in retirement. Stick to the civil war Bob.

  223. gerard

    Jeez,
    We do not pay much tax. Like America and Japan we have a low tax regime. Please read this:
    http://comparativetaxation.treasury.gov.au/content/report/html/02_Executive_Summary.asp

    Most countries with good socal infrastructue pay close to 50% tax, including a social security tax.

    We pay a higher than average income tax but our GST is lower and we d0 not pay a social security tax.

  224. Venise Alstergren

    @BELA@GERARD: What you say about tax may be true, as far as it goes, but the real issue is the fragility of the Oz eco-system, and the knowledge of state governments that given a large amount of money by a developer, will allow the developer to construct buildings to take up almost fifty percent of the arable land around Melbourne’s perimeter. To pour concrete over what used to be market gardens orchards, etc then allow endless MacMansions to be created (if a developer can create, that is) to house all the immigrants and the endless amount of existing population’s children at five thousand dollars a pop.

    You see, I have this weird perception that the more people who crowd into Melbourne-I can’t speak for other cities), and the 1960s infrastructure we have to cope with them, that sees all hope for even a modest quality of life disappear.

    MORALLY: I think it stinks that we can cut our immigration WHILE AT THE SAME TIME allowing and subsidising as many children to be born as any family-single mother, whatever-wants to have.

  225. gerard

    VENISE:To pour concrete over what used to be market gardens orchards, etc then allow endless MacMansions to be created (if a developer can create, that is)

    Spot on, you can’t create cities out of MacMansions. Any infrastrucure can only work if a high enough density of population warrents it. We live on a farm and can hardly expect to have running water or sewer connected let alone a train or bus service to our front gate.

    People are clearly indicating that close to work, leisure and transport is where they prefer to live. That is why a single room bachelor unit in the city is selling for more than MacMansions out in the never never.

  226. Venise Alstergren

    GERARD: Lucky you. It breaks my heart to drive past these hideous places.

    The infrastructure is of the 1960s, and our loveable, not! premier, John Brumby, whose reaction to that word, infrastructure, is to build yet another freeway.

    I believe the state of Victoria has been pushed into the ground-under all political parties. It has been over- worked, degraded and strangled. And now the little bastard Brumby is finishing us off.

  227. gerard

    Venise Alstergren

    As long as Governments gives ‘free-market’ free reign, housing will never be looked upon as a social necessity. Developers will set the tone and make the dollaria and build monstrous edifices to terminal capitalism, with fake holow columns and Julliette balconies sans Julliette, acres of pebble crete driveways and codeine re-enforced propped up couples holding up their pretence of dreams having come true. Years of mortgages and with a 50% split up rate, the ‘dream’ continues unabated and undebated. The dream, the screaming of terror on an Eduard Munch bridge.

    Was unaware Brumby was a little Bastard and in any case would find it hard to believe is finishing (us) you off! His name is perhaps the villain, sounds a bit cosy and rural. Snake in the grass, is he?
    Stay well.

  228. Elan

    Liz45, I’m trying hard not to go off on a tangent, but I must acknowledge your comments on Malalai Joya.

    She is Pashto. So am I. The Pashto/Paktun/Pataan (as my ma called us), do not have a good track record in Afghanistan. Historically the Pashtun, dominated smaller tribes. And THAT is sanitising it.

    BUT; MJ is an absolute force for good,-and an extraordinarily brave young woman. She has been unafraid to criticise both the Muja and the Tali. Both have committed atrocities, and both target her.

    She reminds me of Phoolan Devi, the Indian woman who was pack-raped. Devi literally became an outlaw and went after her attackers. She got them all! She was in prison for years-her ‘gang’ of male helpers were released early.

    Devi eventually became a MP!! She was also threatened for years. They eventually got her; she was murdered.

    But ‘they’ are unknown in history. Devi is not forgotten.

    My Papagee (as I always knew him), was from Kabul. He left Afghanistan; I am told he as an utter pacifist, and abhorred violence. He never discussed his past with any family member, including his wife.

    It is so difficult. The illegal invasion by the ‘liberators’ took place at a time when the Muja were pushed back, only holding the Panjshir Valley. It would have been a bloodbath if the Tali’s had got them.

    ……..the trouble is, that neither side wants the West there anymore. They have well outstayed their welcome. (And I might add ‘the West’ was only there because Afghanistan is of great strategic importance).

    The Afghan is a fighter;- he will always fight against other tribes. Nothing will ever change that.

    The irony is that the Tali do not practice ‘Bacha Baazi’ the boy ‘dancers’ and sex slaves of very many Muja commanders.

    There is at least something to be said for the Tali taking on these Muja pedophiles….
    _________________________

    I know. Off topic.

  229. Liz45

    ELAN – Through her words, Malalai asserts that the US/NATO forces are only reinforcing the horrors that are happening in the country. She believes that the money coming into Afghanistan to help the people is going to the top brass in the govt, who are all corrupt and doing the people out of basic necessites. The destruction is horrific, and now all parties are raping women and children – with US condoning it!

    Malalai doesn’t distinguish between the horrors of the Taliban or any of the war lords, or governors, who members of the govt – most have blood on their hads – she knows it, and the people know it too. She gives many examples re US condoning these horrors. One man who is guilty of horrific war crimes is going to a famous University in the US – Yale! Malalai believes, that he should face charges for war crimes against his own people!

  230. Elan

    Yes. I know what is going on there. The abuse of power is common practice today. (As you see from the released footage of the Iraqi ‘liberators’)

    A true terrorist is the person or nation that can sanction and justify its atrocities. That is by far the worst thing, because it gives approval to further abuse.

    Karzai? A plant. By the West. WHEN the ‘liberators’ leave, Karzai is a dead man walking.

    ………………….and we worry about taking too many of ‘these’ people.

    Pathetic.

  231. Liz45

    @ELAN -Do you have any relatives still in Afghanistan? It must be a daily nightmare for people – just to survive! And when I hear Obama, Rudd etc carry on I just want to scream at the TV that they’re lying. I heard recently about the 3 men and 3 women who were just murdered during a raid on a home – no reasons? The US first denied it, (as usual) then they finally admitted to it but said they were ‘insurgents’ or taliban etc and then finally said it was an ‘oooppss’ type situation, but then hastened to add ‘that the families will receive compensation’! What? I yelled at the radio, ‘oh, well that’s fine then-tell the kids who’ve lost their parents’ and they’ll feel so much better now? A miserly few hundred or a thousand US dollars shut up money? I wish more people would acquaint themselves with the reality in Afghanistan and how we’re complicit in causing so much death and misery – for oil, gas and other resources!

    Last evening on ABC radio, the leader of the Conservatives in the Britain referred to the ‘illegal invasion of Iraq’ and I thought ‘Wow! -that’s progress!’ Now all they need to do is tell the truth about Afghanistan and at least that lie will be revealed too! The alleged terrorists re 9/11 didn’t even come from Afghanistan, but Yemen and Saudi Arabia, and the US allowed at least 20 extended family members of Osama bin Laden to leave the US the day after 9/11 – so what’s going on there???? Very smelly indeed!

    Incidently, notice how the US/NATO don’t carry on about the other countries in the Middle East run by dictators – with no democratic elections, such as Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt for a start! Of course they do the US bidding, so they’ll leave them in peace to continue as they are! The same hypocrisy applies to Africa. Mugabe is a dictator, but there’s other countries in the neighbourhood just as bad, but they’re allowing US access for oil or who knows, and they’re left alone!

  232. Elan

    I have, but I don’t know who they are.

    I was raised in Rawalpindi Pakistan for the first part of my life. I don’t want to return to either country.

    Both have been destroyed…..one way or the other…

    As for these atrocities/cover-ups, they have gone on throughout history. We’ve learned bugger all!

    All that WE can do is highlight them, question them, scream out loud about them.

    I have never accepted what I’ve been told by anyone. I have always seen that as an opinion not a fact.

    I have no intention of EVER giving ANY abuser a free run.
    __________________________

    This is far more interesting than Carr’s opinions……….!!

  233. Liz45

    ELAN – I agree! There’s only so much you can discuss about population – small or large? I get frustrated when serious issues like this are politicised, particularly when it hurts people, either physically or emotionally. This revolting dialogue re asylum seekers is a good case in point. when I hear about little kids bashing their heads against a wall due to a jail like environment, I just want to go and get them out. I can’t understand how we can boast of being ‘you beaut’ when we do this sort of thing. If we did it to animals, the RSPCA would take us to court – and rightly so!

    I was raised in a conservative family-most of my siblings would vote for the conservatives-I’ve not been so easy to con – either due to my own experiences or those of others. In fact, yrs ago one of my sisters said she wouldn’t discuss politics with me, as I knew more than her! Funny, I’d have just been more determined to find out! She remains in ignorant bliss – doesn’t even watch TV? Perhaps that’s the best way to be! Watch the Soaps and form views accordingly! Ouch! Yuk!It’s strange, but in yrs gone by they’d rely on me to use my insights and contacts to sort out family issues – aged parents and their care etc?

    It’s amazing that the US is using drones etc in Pakistan, and the rest of the world thinks that is OK. Surely this is illegal? Just put drones in the air and pick of your enemies, without anyone protesting? I read the book ‘Enemy Combatant’ about the British citizen, Moazzam Begg(middle eastern parents) who was kidnapped and ended up in Guantanamo Bay – he’d done nothing – was released without charge 3 yrs later – much like Mandouh Habib and David Hicks? In fact he saw both of them at Gittmo – more interaction with Hicks! He only saw Mandouh Habib while he was chained up, with his arms above his head, and left there until he collapsed. Horrific stuff! Begg’s father worked like hell to get his son released(like Terry Hicks did) and finally won. But of course there lives will never be the same again – too many awful memories. Solitary confinement leads to mental illnesses without any other forms of torture.

    I’m going to take advantage of the break in the weather to tidy up my plants. It’s been raining for almost a week now – not complaining, but? have to organise before I leave and spend time with my grandkids!
    I hope all your extended family members are safe – wherever they are! I wouldn’t go to those countries either. Too risky!

  234. Mark Riboldi

    Anyone who listens to a word Bob Carr says on population after he makes the clanger “Sydney… already (has a) very sound, environmentally sensitive metropolitan plan,” has rocks in their head.

  235. Liz45

    MARK – Indeed! Bob I’m a sellout of workers and ordinary people CARR! Please! I don’t even know why this site allows past pollies to take up our time and energy to espouse their nonsense. He’s doing very well thank you! The workers of NSW are paying his very generous ‘pension’ plus whatever he gets from his current employer? and he still thinks he has the right to inform us of some part of reality that he believes we need education(of his brand) on? I say to him, ‘f**k off Bob!

  236. Mark Riboldi

    LMAO – thanks LIZ45, I needed that smile after the week I’m having!

  237. Liz45

    MARK – Youre welcome! Because of Bob’s policies, many people in NSW don’t have a reason to smile. Not that the other mob would be any better – probably a damned sight worse? Scary! How depressing? What does LMAO mean? Yes, I know I’m a novice, but, I hate it when people use initials? AAAAAARRRRRRRHHHHHHHHH!!!!

  238. Mark Riboldi

    It’s Laugh My Arse Off =) Sometimes it can be LMFAO: LMF*ckingAO!!

  239. Liz45

    Why are you doing that? What is so funny? And why have you had such a bad week?
    Do you think discussion about population is funny, or Bob Carr is hysterical, or do you just need some light relief via belly laughs? I don’t think the aftermath of any of these politicians is anything to laugh about, unless you’re employed in a well paid job, are male, and have no dependants. If you’re single, and an aged pensioner like me, they’re not funny – they’re repugnant!
    People in NSW are going to get horrific electricity bills very soon, and it has nothing to do with taking steps re climate change, it’s all to do with greed! Most depressing. Nothing to laugh at, at all! When was electricity privatised in NSW? Not these bastards, many yrs before them? I’ve forgotten!

  240. Mark Riboldi

    When you said “f*ck off Bob!” it made me laugh out loud.

    I don’t think talk about population is funny at all. Part of the reason I’m having a rough week is because there’s a lot of people on all sides of politics talking absolute bullsh*t about it.

    Thankfully, Crikey is usually publishing sense (Bob Carr’s tripe notwithstanding).

  241. mickyj

    Gerard: Don’t worry the property dream is coming to a screaming generational halt. Many finance insiders including Governor of the RBA, are preparing for a property collapse in Australia. But you have to look hard to find out about it in the mainstream media of course.

    http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/property-and-the-big-four-australian-banks/2010/04/07/

  242. Liz45

    MARK – Understood! Don’t let the bastards grind you down! “They’re not worth the bloody effort”!(Mick Dodson-Sydney Opera House – May 27?2000) Indeed!

    Go hug a kid and/or your loved one or a tree even?

  243. Venise Alstergren

    @LIZ @MARK: Neither of you have a clue do you?

    “Actually Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide already have very sound environmentally sensitive metropolitan plans.” BOB CARR, Crikey 1 April 2010.

    I am so glad he told me this. And when I am using one of our many freeways-thanks to our succession of bent, bought and corrupt state governments, Labor party or Coalition, take your pick. Our rail system either can’t cope or is unable to go to half the places in Victoria, because the railway lines were built around nineteen hundred and haven’t been extended since then.

    And as my little red car grinds to a halt-surrounded by half a million other cars, which also have stopped. I sigh and switch off the engine. Then I lean over and get my paperback. My lungs fill with the romantic mixture of gasoline and diesel fumes, and I return the wry smile back to the guy in the car next to me. And all the while I’m thinking. ‘Gosh, I am so lucky to be alive in such a liveable city as Melbourne. Thank God for our wonderful, sound environmentally sensitive metropolitan plans. NOT!’

  244. Mark Riboldi

    @Venise, are you having a go at me for some reason? It sounds like Melbourne is just as bad as Sydney. Which just goes to reiterate my point that Bob Carr is full of sh*t.

  245. Mark Riboldi

    …when he’s talking about the metropolitan plans, I mean.

    It’s obvious that if our cities did have “sound environmentally sensitive metropolitan plans”, we wouldn’t have the problems we’re now facing.

  246. mickyj

    If you were driven around in a chauffeur driven, tax payer funded limousine (Bob doesn’t have a driver’s license you see) you would think Sydney & Melbourne were pretty good too.

  247. Liz45

    VENISE – I think we were engaging in a little light relief! I understand what you’re saying. Just think, it could be worse?

    You could be living in NSW with this Labor govt that is just beyond ?? The latest! Due to what our govt did to the electricity companies, borrowed their money some time ago? the electricity charges are going to increase by (allegedly)64%. We(residents)have to pay it back??Not the govt, us! Now this story was in Murdoch’s Telegraph so I’m not 100% sure of its validity, as I had a quick look while waiting at the hairdressers, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Last yr I bought a gas heater – wow! good thinking – I got an interest free loan from a church group(not that I’m a churchie, as you know) I’ll be most diligent about turning everything off at night, including the TV etc. I have a water bed but I don’t think it uses much – it’s salvation for bad backs, necks etc?How people on low incomes with kids will get on, I don’t know. I feel so sorry for them. I remember those yrs – kids and no money – not for a good while anyway! But of course, pollies are on good money, send their kids to private schools that the ordinary person pays for – twice!

    The trains in Sydney have been in a mess and OK and in a mess etc for yonks – but mostly inadequate and shameful! They wasted ???many millions on an alleged you beaut ticketing system that went pear shaped – more millions wasted! Toilets on trains are horrific, and not all trains have them, even if the trip could take a couple of hours – you have to notify the guard and the train will stop at the next station – as long as it’s staffed and the toilets are still open? This after 30 yrs in govt? Perhaps more! Not that the other lot would be better, probably worse?

    The govt has allowed a housing development on land that many believe is a flood plain – filled with ‘land fill’? We had excessive amts of rain in ’98 which did awful damage. If it happens again, these people will be in big trouble? Another development close to the escarpment has only 2 main roads in or out – with several thousand people? If there was a fire, it would be Victoria all over again – people would be trapped. Another development has roads so narrow, that you can’t have 2 cars parked opposite each other – the ‘bays’ are staggered? If there was a disaster requiring police, fire or ambulance or maybe only one, tough luck! How are these things allowed to happen? Amazing! You just shake your head in disbelief. I’m not an engineer or anything, but common sense dictates different plans and policies!

    Oh there’s lots more! If this is an indication of careful planning, god help us all! How would you trust these idiots to plan for the future growth of cities etc. It’s slower now to travel to Sydney by train than it was 60 yrs ago? So much for getting people to work in a reasonable time – some people’s days are 14 hrs at least!

    Didn’t Kennett sell of the rail system? At one stage it was muted that the govt should buy it back? Haven’t heard anything since, so??Do you still have trams? I used to love the old trams in Melbourne? Sydney got rid of them yrs ago – stupid move, now there’s too many cars in the city! On and on it goes! I despair!

  248. Liz45

    MICKYJ – If I had slaves at taxpayers expense, I’d look at life differently too I suppose. Fancy having to take kids to school and then go to the other side of the city to work etc? Every time I’m anywhere near Sydney, I’m always glad to go south! Couldn’t stand it. I wonder how much fuel is wasted each day in traffic, not to mention what’s going into the atmosphere etc. Better public transport, could leave the cars at home. Oh the cost of sucking up to the car/fuel industries?

  249. gerard

    LIZ45

    That’s why cities cannot be based on own block of land and own house, it will never function. Our cities are even less densily populated than Los Angeles. No amount of public transport will ever be able to cater for cities based on country style living with comparative few people spread over large areas.

    Cities in Australia are some of the worlds worst examples of town planning. There is no town planning. Just developers in cahoot with local councils spreading their concrete and zinc alume monsters.

    As for trains, they were never meant to go faster than crawl. The rails were never banked which means that at every curve trains must slow down to a crawl. London – Paris is quicker than Goulburn-Sydney, yet is twice the distance.

    Don’t get me going on Hospitals. Some years ago, I had booked in for my routine colonoscopy at Concord Repat. Hospital. I woke up from the anaesthetic feeling as if I was being handled somewhat inappropiately. I looked at my watch. No watch, I remember having taken it off. Instead a plastic name tag with Mary Snodgrave around my arm.
    I was a whisker away from getting an hysterectomy. I waved my arms around and I was subsequently wheeled in the colonoscopy ward and into the calm hands of the expert doctor with a generous supply of lubrication jelly.

    Not only sandwiches afterwards but a lovely lime jelly. You are all somewhat lucky I can still stand in front of you completely ‘entire’.

  250. Venise Alstergren

    MARK RIBOLDI: Having a go at you? No way. I brought up that ‘little clanger” on Sat 3 April @ 8.34pm. Certainly I was agreeing with you. It’s just that I was caught in this exact scenario this morning, and a few of my enemies tell me I’m too serious.
    So I tried to make the comment to be slightly whimsical.

    Cheers V

  251. Venise Alstergren

    LIZ: Ouch! Seems NSW is as bad as VIC. State governments are notorious for being on the take. Trouble is, they take from the people, and give to the developers. Allowing them to put up whichever shonky buildings they want to. Also allowing them to build into national parks.

  252. Rohan

    MARK RIBOLDI: The statement :“Sydney… already (has a) very sound, environmentally sensitive metropolitan plan,” is actually correct.

    The problem is that it’s cast aside as “just another input” by the wankers in Treasury who decide implementing it would be “too expensive” and not going to provide any short-term political return.

  253. Liz45

    @GERARD@VENISE – Lucky escape Gerard! Scary!

    Venise, we have a war going on at the moment, where the NSW govt is determined to allow a company to put up about 50 ‘holiday units’ in a lovely state park, that should be left alone for the benefit of all people, not just those wealthy enough to pay for accommodation. There is already homes not far from this beautiful place, and we are currently fighting against it. There’s a great beach that board riders etc absolutely love called The Farm, which has not long been added to the list of places to be left alone? I forget the title – heritage listed? The whole area is just magnificent and should be left alone. The argument pro is that it’s only a 50 yr lease(what BS-once it’s there??) and there should be a fee etc. The original company went broke, and so we hoped it would fall over, but no, they’re looking for an alternate company!
    Oh yes, there’s evidence, via The Greens in this state, great people, that at every stage of the approval process, large donations were allegedly handed over to the ALP? This info is on The Greens website. Sylvia Hale is a great woman, who’s done amazing work on this!

    These horrific(I’ve seen the plan – they look like school demountables to me – horrible?) dwellings will block the magic scenery of the beach, surrounding ocean, rocks etc. The park is called Killalea State Park, one of the many parks that are left alone and free to enter – which is how it should be! I’ve taken several people to see it and they can’t believe it when I tell them about the proposal? I’m sure that every person in this municipality would pay a few dollars a yr to pay for the upkeep, grass cutting etc. I would, willingly! I’m not a property owner, but I’d be more than happy to pay, but it shouldn’t be necessary! It’s also used for educational purposes and is truly breathtakingly beautiful! You can picnic at the tables or on the huge areas of grass etc, kids can run around safely, play cricket, big enough for several games of cricket at once? etc. Great park! Damned crime! Bastards!(when did god pass the land over to state govts, councils or property developers, real estate agents etc?)
    We’ll get arrested if they start the nonsense – I haven’t before, but there’s always a first time! The Unions are on side, and so let’s hope they green?ban it. We’ll call on the lovely Jack Mundy if necessary! (Saved The Rocks & Centenial Park Sydney plus others yrs ago – a living treasure, and a lovely bloke – there was a doco on ABC about him?)
    Put Killalea State Park into your search engine, and have a bo-peep! I know that I’ve blown my cover re where I live, but I don’t care – it’s important that people know what’s going on- regardless of where they live! Could be your area next!
    Off to the library!

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