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	<title>Comments on: Users snap over Instagram, but should have seen it coming</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 13:54:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: ulysses butterfly</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232763</link>
		<dc:creator>ulysses butterfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 05:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232763</guid>
		<description>Copyright lawyers will know alot more about this than me, but here are my musings:

In Australia at least (maybe not in France or the USA?) as I understand there is no legal right of a person to their own physical image if taken in public, nor does it require consent. It may be polite and moral but I don&#039;t think there is a law about it. For instance news organisations use people&#039;s images without their consent all the time.

So consent to use a phyiscal image of a person (which is not required here in Oz) is different to the issue of ownership of copyright in a photo (whether of a landscape or of people as the subject).

I notice this summary online which is a bit dated but seems right http://www.kangraphotos.com/reference/p_and_c/nsw_photo_rights.pdf

As to retrospectively asserting the right to use copyright in photographs belong to users whether of landscapes or other people, by a mere change of use terms, wouldn&#039;t that require a real and informed consent by the user? For instance, the law usually takes a dim view of fine print, and ambushes in matters of property. Is an email amongst hundreds or thousands of emails really notice? It could be misleading and deceptive conduct in business. Wouldn&#039;t they need a positive opt in consent, rather than an opt out? Otherwise the conduct of apparent acquiesence, or more likely silence, after the terms of use change, might be equivocal and not amount to a genuine retrospective consent at all? 

I really doubt silence amounts to consent.

Unlike the position suggested in the story, what the users/audience may well be giving Instagram is the right to bombard them with advertiser content, that is, to sell them as an audience to advertisers. Just as a free newspaper sells advertising to business to communicate to a definable audience. This is much less than consent to transfer copyright property of the audience to advertisers. 

On the other hand if users are in fact well informed of the change of terms, and go along with it by using it, grumpily or grudgingly or otherwise, then their conduct might be evidence of consent. Again if a user writes to instigram and says I do not consent to selling/licensing (ie a partial transfer of the copyright property) of my content to others, Instigram may have to actively address that - cancel the account, or negotiate a deal. If I were instigram I would be concerned about exposure to a suit for breach of copyright for lack of positive consent to their unilateral change of terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Copyright lawyers will know alot more about this than me, but here are my musings:</p>
<p>In Australia at least (maybe not in France or the USA?) as I understand there is no legal right of a person to their own physical image if taken in public, nor does it require consent. It may be polite and moral but I don&#8217;t think there is a law about it. For instance news organisations use people&#8217;s images without their consent all the time.</p>
<p>So consent to use a phyiscal image of a person (which is not required here in Oz) is different to the issue of ownership of copyright in a photo (whether of a landscape or of people as the subject).</p>
<p>I notice this summary online which is a bit dated but seems right <a href="http://www.kangraphotos.com/reference/p_and_c/nsw_photo_rights.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.kangraphotos.com/reference/p_and_c/nsw_photo_rights.pdf</a></p>
<p>As to retrospectively asserting the right to use copyright in photographs belong to users whether of landscapes or other people, by a mere change of use terms, wouldn&#8217;t that require a real and informed consent by the user? For instance, the law usually takes a dim view of fine print, and ambushes in matters of property. Is an email amongst hundreds or thousands of emails really notice? It could be misleading and deceptive conduct in business. Wouldn&#8217;t they need a positive opt in consent, rather than an opt out? Otherwise the conduct of apparent acquiesence, or more likely silence, after the terms of use change, might be equivocal and not amount to a genuine retrospective consent at all? </p>
<p>I really doubt silence amounts to consent.</p>
<p>Unlike the position suggested in the story, what the users/audience may well be giving Instagram is the right to bombard them with advertiser content, that is, to sell them as an audience to advertisers. Just as a free newspaper sells advertising to business to communicate to a definable audience. This is much less than consent to transfer copyright property of the audience to advertisers. </p>
<p>On the other hand if users are in fact well informed of the change of terms, and go along with it by using it, grumpily or grudgingly or otherwise, then their conduct might be evidence of consent. Again if a user writes to instigram and says I do not consent to selling/licensing (ie a partial transfer of the copyright property) of my content to others, Instigram may have to actively address that - cancel the account, or negotiate a deal. If I were instigram I would be concerned about exposure to a suit for breach of copyright for lack of positive consent to their unilateral change of terms.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232702</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232702</guid>
		<description>@TheFamousEccles
Until now, Stilgherrian has avoided the trap of writing like the stereotypical, sanctimonious IT nerd that most of us know from the office. Shame it slipped through here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@TheFamousEccles<br />
Until now, Stilgherrian has avoided the trap of writing like the stereotypical, sanctimonious IT nerd that most of us know from the office. Shame it slipped through here.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaye Uiterwyk</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232700</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaye Uiterwyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232700</guid>
		<description>I think more and more people are discovering that a &quot;free&quot; internet is not necessarily &quot;free&quot;. It&#039;s unfortunate that we use the same word to mean something for nothing, and freedom of expression. People often shift from one meaning to the other... freely. Now, I&#039;ve been hanging around the internet in various forms since about 1990. The dream of a &quot;free&quot; internet was a liberal-minded, vaguely leftish, communal geeky dream. Now the riff-raff is here, the dream is fading fast. ;o) If you pay the bills with money from advertising, things can quickly deteriorate to the point where the advertisers are the customers and your job is to keep them happy. The buzz word in tech is &quot;monetization&quot;. We have all these eyeballs, now how to we cash in. Entities like Google start to look like monopolistic monsters. An internet paid for by advertising starts to resemble the wasteland that is commercial telly in this country. The effects are insidious. If we want an independent and free internet, we might have to start paying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think more and more people are discovering that a &#8220;free&#8221; internet is not necessarily &#8220;free&#8221;. It&#8217;s unfortunate that we use the same word to mean something for nothing, and freedom of expression. People often shift from one meaning to the other&#8230; freely. Now, I&#8217;ve been hanging around the internet in various forms since about 1990. The dream of a &#8220;free&#8221; internet was a liberal-minded, vaguely leftish, communal geeky dream. Now the riff-raff is here, the dream is fading fast. ;o) If you pay the bills with money from advertising, things can quickly deteriorate to the point where the advertisers are the customers and your job is to keep them happy. The buzz word in tech is &#8220;monetization&#8221;. We have all these eyeballs, now how to we cash in. Entities like Google start to look like monopolistic monsters. An internet paid for by advertising starts to resemble the wasteland that is commercial telly in this country. The effects are insidious. If we want an independent and free internet, we might have to start paying.</p>
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		<title>By: TheFamousEccles</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232699</link>
		<dc:creator>TheFamousEccles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 23:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232699</guid>
		<description>Two things - Firstly, the article was informative (I am not an Instagram user but I follow internet privacy issues), and in some aspects cleared away a few questions I had over this impasse.

The second is that the author comes over as an utter tool, and in my experience of the &quot;it&quot; crowd (and I have plenty of experience managing IT types, similar to herding kittens but not as enjoyable) he is not unique.  

Sorry mate, but I wont waste my time on your condescension again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things - Firstly, the article was informative (I am not an Instagram user but I follow internet privacy issues), and in some aspects cleared away a few questions I had over this impasse.</p>
<p>The second is that the author comes over as an utter tool, and in my experience of the &#8220;it&#8221; crowd (and I have plenty of experience managing IT types, similar to herding kittens but not as enjoyable) he is not unique.  </p>
<p>Sorry mate, but I wont waste my time on your condescension again.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronson Dalby</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232696</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronson Dalby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232696</guid>
		<description>Got to agree, Kristian.  That last sentence ruined the whole article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got to agree, Kristian.  That last sentence ruined the whole article.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve777</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232694</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 19:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232694</guid>
		<description>Any product offered for free should be approached with caution. If you&#039;re not paying for a product, that normally means that YOU are the product. Applies to &#039;free to air&#039; TV and to social network sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any product offered for free should be approached with caution. If you&#8217;re not paying for a product, that normally means that YOU are the product. Applies to &#8216;free to air&#8217; TV and to social network sites.</p>
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		<title>By: dale ross</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232683</link>
		<dc:creator>dale ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 10:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232683</guid>
		<description>facebook, instagram, twitter-the US should break up these ghastly entities via anti-trust laws. We taxpayers subsidise these bludgers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>facebook, instagram, twitter-the US should break up these ghastly entities via anti-trust laws. We taxpayers subsidise these bludgers.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232661</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 05:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232661</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The core lesson here is that services like Instagram aren’t free. You pay for them by licensing the operator to use your content and other data in various ways. If you don’t like that, well, pay for your goddam internet hosting yourself&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Geez! Sprinkle a little extra smug on your cornflakes this morning?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The core lesson here is that services like Instagram aren’t free. You pay for them by licensing the operator to use your content and other data in various ways. If you don’t like that, well, pay for your goddam internet hosting yourself</p></blockquote>
<p>Geez! Sprinkle a little extra smug on your cornflakes this morning?</p>
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		<title>By: Stevo the Working Twistie</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232641</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevo the Working Twistie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 03:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232641</guid>
		<description>You had me, right up to &quot;Instagram also made it clear that they have no plans to use people’s photos in advertising.&quot; That&#039;s all right then, I&#039;ll provide them that right because they assure me they don&#039;t intend to exercise it. BTW, I&#039;m not an Instagram user, and only share the bare minimum via other social media sites. And this is why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You had me, right up to &#8220;Instagram also made it clear that they have no plans to use people’s photos in advertising.&#8221; That&#8217;s all right then, I&#8217;ll provide them that right because they assure me they don&#8217;t intend to exercise it. BTW, I&#8217;m not an Instagram user, and only share the bare minimum via other social media sites. And this is why.</p>
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		<title>By: zut alors</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232633</link>
		<dc:creator>zut alors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 03:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232633</guid>
		<description>Yet another example of 21st century Instacrap society. Progress?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another example of 21st century Instacrap society. Progress?</p>
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		<title>By: tinman_au</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232616</link>
		<dc:creator>tinman_au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232616</guid>
		<description>I think any automated system where they inject ads into photos will lead to some highly amusing outcomes!

And, when those photos involve children, perhaps some tragic ones :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think any automated system where they inject ads into photos will lead to some highly amusing outcomes!</p>
<p>And, when those photos involve children, perhaps some tragic ones <img src='http://www.crikey.com.au/wp-content/mu-plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-sad.png' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Adrian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/12/19/users-snap-over-instagram-but-should-have-seen-it-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-232610</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2012 00:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=339112#comment-232610</guid>
		<description>&quot; If you are under the age of eighteen (18), or under any other applicable age of majority, you represent that at least one of your parents or legal guardians has also agreed to this provision (and the use of your name, likeness, username, and/or photos (along with any associated metadata) on your behalf.&quot;

So, basically, &quot;If you&#039;re too young to enter this agreement, you agree to the term of this agreement that says that someone else who can enter an agreement agrees that you can enter this agreement&quot;.

Am I right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; If you are under the age of eighteen (18), or under any other applicable age of majority, you represent that at least one of your parents or legal guardians has also agreed to this provision (and the use of your name, likeness, username, and/or photos (along with any associated metadata) on your behalf.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, basically, &#8220;If you&#8217;re too young to enter this agreement, you agree to the term of this agreement that says that someone else who can enter an agreement agrees that you can enter this agreement&#8221;.</p>
<p>Am I right?</p>
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