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	<title>Comments on: Why 4 degrees will end the world as we know it: World Bank</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229119</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 18:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229119</guid>
		<description>Frank,you say:-

&quot;A corrupt and demoralized ALP, presiding over climate policy farce, couldn’t give a frack about global warming. The country clings to its fossil fuel export bonanza while killing off the renewable energy scams.&quot; I agree but not the scams part. But frankly the rest of your stuff is... shall we just call it crap and leave it at that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank,you say:-</p>
<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>A corrupt and demoralized ALP, presiding over climate policy farce, couldn’t give a frack about global warming. The country clings to its fossil fuel export bonanza while killing off the renewable energy scams.&#8221; I agree but not the scams part. But frankly the rest of your stuff is&#8230; shall we just call it crap and leave it at that.</p>
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		<title>By: Liamj</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229096</link>
		<dc:creator>Liamj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229096</guid>
		<description>Thats okay Frank, i don&#039;t get yours either. ;)

It is true that habitat loss/biodiversity/persistant toxics/asbestos/radiation/lead/etc (all the &#039;little&#039; problems) have dropped even further down the to-do list, but we were never more than pretending to care about those problems anyway, just like we pretend (5% ??  pfft!) about anthropogenic global warming. 

What those issues lack is AGWs easy faith. One can accept AGW and simply conclude that those at fault lie far away (eg. China), and then get on with BAU in the meanwhile. No messy lying in front of machinery, tedious meetings, or personal change required!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thats okay Frank, i don&#8217;t get yours either. <img src='http://www.crikey.com.au/wp-content/mu-plugins/tango-smilies/tango/face-wink.png' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>It is true that habitat loss/biodiversity/persistant toxics/asbestos/radiation/lead/etc (all the &#8216;little&#8217; problems) have dropped even further down the to-do list, but we were never more than pretending to care about those problems anyway, just like we pretend (5% ??  pfft!) about anthropogenic global warming. </p>
<p>What those issues lack is AGWs easy faith. One can accept AGW and simply conclude that those at fault lie far away (eg. China), and then get on with BAU in the meanwhile. No messy lying in front of machinery, tedious meetings, or personal change required!</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229080</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 09:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229080</guid>
		<description>Polemic is fun, Fractious, but just for you I&#039;ll desist for a moment...

Your argument is precisely what I&#039;ve said since the birth of the cult. We had to channel/placate the ferocity/energy of the millenarian cult- because it had for a few brief years the power of Savonarola. The idea was to tie every &quot;carbon&quot; policy to environmentalism- i.e.make every &quot;carbon&quot; policy consonant with environmental policy. So that even if the entire CO2 theory turns to dust, we&#039;ve still gained. This strategy has been a total failure: the policies adopted have been irrelevant or inimical to the real environment. Whether it be the carbon tax or wind turbines or geothermal, the policy (and often implementation) has been counter-productive. Politically, the battle is almost lost.

As I say often- the carbon cult is its own worst enemy. It&#039;s failed to make any constructive use of the power it once had, and its fascistic stupidity is delivering us into the hands of the hard Right, rednecks, feral corporations etc.

So the natural carbon sinks are being screwed a bit more every year...Even in 20 years I&#039;ve seen a marked decline in species abundance in the areas I know- areas with no apparently &quot;new development&quot;. We&#039;ve slowly gone backwards for the past decade. The next decade will be a lot worse, unless we can kill the cult in order to target the enemy, which is our old friend, corrupt, rapacious corporate capitalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Polemic is fun, Fractious, but just for you I&#8217;ll desist for a moment&#8230;</p>
<p>Your argument is precisely what I&#8217;ve said since the birth of the cult. We had to channel/placate the ferocity/energy of the millenarian cult- because it had for a few brief years the power of Savonarola. The idea was to tie every &#8220;carbon&#8221; policy to environmentalism- i.e.make every &#8220;carbon&#8221; policy consonant with environmental policy. So that even if the entire CO2 theory turns to dust, we&#8217;ve still gained. This strategy has been a total failure: the policies adopted have been irrelevant or inimical to the real environment. Whether it be the carbon tax or wind turbines or geothermal, the policy (and often implementation) has been counter-productive. Politically, the battle is almost lost.</p>
<p>As I say often- the carbon cult is its own worst enemy. It&#8217;s failed to make any constructive use of the power it once had, and its fascistic stupidity is delivering us into the hands of the hard Right, rednecks, feral corporations etc.</p>
<p>So the natural carbon sinks are being screwed a bit more every year&#8230;Even in 20 years I&#8217;ve seen a marked decline in species abundance in the areas I know- areas with no apparently &#8220;new development&#8221;. We&#8217;ve slowly gone backwards for the past decade. The next decade will be a lot worse, unless we can kill the cult in order to target the enemy, which is our old friend, corrupt, rapacious corporate capitalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229076</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 09:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229076</guid>
		<description>I must have misunderstood your satire, Liamj...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must have misunderstood your satire, Liamj&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: fractious</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229068</link>
		<dc:creator>fractious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 08:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229068</guid>
		<description>Frank, take a minute out from the polemic will you. Even I - a political ingenue according to you - has joined the dots. If you campaign to save terrestrial, aquatic and marine ecosystems, you by default help preserve carbon sinks. Conversely if retaining and augmenting terrestrial and oceanic carbon sinks is a significant part of reducing atmospheric GHG emissions then by default some (admittedly not all, and certainly not all endangered) ecosystems are valued and retained.

Not &quot;win-win&quot; (to use a revoltingly trite phrase) but certainly acknowledging the one is intimately and intricately linked to the other. In a world of ever-increasing population and resource extraction, ya gotta take what ya can git.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank, take a minute out from the polemic will you. Even I - a political ingenue according to you - has joined the dots. If you campaign to save terrestrial, aquatic and marine ecosystems, you by default help preserve carbon sinks. Conversely if retaining and augmenting terrestrial and oceanic carbon sinks is a significant part of reducing atmospheric GHG emissions then by default some (admittedly not all, and certainly not all endangered) ecosystems are valued and retained.</p>
<p>Not &#8220;win-win&#8221; (to use a revoltingly trite phrase) but certainly acknowledging the one is intimately and intricately linked to the other. In a world of ever-increasing population and resource extraction, ya gotta take what ya can git.</p>
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		<title>By: Liamj</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229055</link>
		<dc:creator>Liamj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 07:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229055</guid>
		<description>How dare Frank Campbell allege i am involved in progressive politics, out here in the sticks nobody mentions politics or the climate, ever. Lot of talk about the weather tho, and some blo ody early fires..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How dare Frank Campbell allege i am involved in progressive politics, out here in the sticks nobody mentions politics or the climate, ever. Lot of talk about the weather tho, and some blo ody early fires..</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229034</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229034</guid>
		<description>Now I wonder why demand is down, Hugh. Let me guess. Doubling the price might have something to do with it, and the 10% carbon tax impost on power will further depress demand.

Mild conditions and continued de-industrialisation also have something to do with it, right Hugh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I wonder why demand is down, Hugh. Let me guess. Doubling the price might have something to do with it, and the 10% carbon tax impost on power will further depress demand.</p>
<p>Mild conditions and continued de-industrialisation also have something to do with it, right Hugh?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh (Charlie) McColl</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-229009</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh (Charlie) McColl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 05:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-229009</guid>
		<description>Frank Campbell, electricity demand is down.  Someone is listening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank Campbell, electricity demand is down.  Someone is listening.</p>
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		<title>By: wyane</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228903</link>
		<dc:creator>wyane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 02:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228903</guid>
		<description>let&#039;s just go full pelt and let the 800 million luckiest people deal with the scraps next century. oh yeah. we already are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>let&#8217;s just go full pelt and let the 800 million luckiest people deal with the scraps next century. oh yeah. we already are.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228902</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 02:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228902</guid>
		<description>My comment is under moderation. Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment is under moderation. Why?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228899</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 02:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228899</guid>
		<description>Lets face it we have a problem...sorry, many, many problems and climate change in the medium to longer term is the mother of all problems but we are also rapidly running out of all sorts of resources, oil, fish and phosphorous to name but a few. Yes and the environment is being wrecked here in Australia and elsewhere.

At the same time we have a peak debt problem. About the only thing not in short supply at the moment is money which they keep printing and feeding to the bankers, the military and so forth but not to you or I.

We have the US and allies running wild looking to satisfy the needs of the military/industrial complex and we have the mainstream press ignoring or trivializing these problems and creating a culture of selfishness, ignorance and apathy.
 
To be fair on Crikey, at least they do cover most of the issues in a more enlightened way but what we are all neglecting to discuss is why the problems continue and are, in fact, escalating. There is no simple answer to that but perhaps a start would be to recognize that our capitalist system is broken and our major parties as well as those in the the rest of developed world refuse to let go of it.

We must realize that the relentless pursuit of growth, trickle down economics and the &quot;free market&quot; controlled by corporate monopolies or oligopolies will have a sad ending. I began to recognize the problem around about the time of the failed Copenhagen climate summit and events since then have reinforced my belief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets face it we have a problem&#8230;sorry, many, many problems and climate change in the medium to longer term is the mother of all problems but we are also rapidly running out of all sorts of resources, oil, fish and phosphorous to name but a few. Yes and the environment is being wrecked here in Australia and elsewhere.</p>
<p>At the same time we have a peak debt problem. About the only thing not in short supply at the moment is money which they keep printing and feeding to the bankers, the military and so forth but not to you or I.</p>
<p>We have the US and allies running wild looking to satisfy the needs of the military/industrial complex and we have the mainstream press ignoring or trivializing these problems and creating a culture of selfishness, ignorance and apathy.</p>
<p>To be fair on Crikey, at least they do cover most of the issues in a more enlightened way but what we are all neglecting to discuss is why the problems continue and are, in fact, escalating. There is no simple answer to that but perhaps a start would be to recognize that our capitalist system is broken and our major parties as well as those in the the rest of developed world refuse to let go of it.</p>
<p>We must realize that the relentless pursuit of growth, trickle down economics and the &#8220;free market&#8221; controlled by corporate monopolies or oligopolies will have a sad ending. I began to recognize the problem around about the time of the failed Copenhagen climate summit and events since then have reinforced my belief.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228881</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 01:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228881</guid>
		<description>The trollposts from Karen and Liamj show how incorrigible the Cult is...
They stagger about in the wreckage of progressive politics,
but no one&#039;s listening to them any more. 

And at least we agree on one thing Fractious- the media focus on climate to the exclusion of everything else environmental...

Lovelock has apologised (his name never mentioned since his recantation- airbrushed from history by the Cult), and Lomberg is the new guru of choice for recovering climate fanatics...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trollposts from Karen and Liamj show how incorrigible the Cult is&#8230;<br />
They stagger about in the wreckage of progressive politics,<br />
but no one&#8217;s listening to them any more. </p>
<p>And at least we agree on one thing Fractious- the media focus on climate to the exclusion of everything else environmental&#8230;</p>
<p>Lovelock has apologised (his name never mentioned since his recantation- airbrushed from history by the Cult), and Lomberg is the new guru of choice for recovering climate fanatics&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228878</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 00:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228878</guid>
		<description>@Frank Campbell - it&#039;s quite clear you were completely hopeless at maths and science. Not to mention you pseudo intellectual dishonesty stinks like a fart in a lift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Frank Campbell - it&#8217;s quite clear you were completely hopeless at maths and science. Not to mention you pseudo intellectual dishonesty stinks like a fart in a lift.</p>
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		<title>By: fractious</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228873</link>
		<dc:creator>fractious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 00:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228873</guid>
		<description>Not me Frank, I&#039;ve been battling greedy developers, serial fibbers in state guvmints and opposing changes to environment and planning laws that screw our ecology and scupper community participation for 15 years or more (fat lot of good it did). As for climate change, as far as I&#039;m concerned science is science, you might think you can pick and choose which bits of science you like and which you don&#039;t, but IMO that makes you look silly. How polly ticks deal with the science is a whole other thing. On one hand the fed guvmint had to start somewhere, OTOH what&#039;s been delivered won&#039;t deliver any meaningful GHG reductions. What much of the last 10 years or so focus on climate has been very successful at is diverting funds and resources needed for conservation of terrestrial and marine ecosystems. Same with media coverage - just about every &quot;environment&quot; article in the MSM and here at Crikey in recent years turns out to be about climate change - it&#039;s as if the dire state of our ecosystems is no longer worth mentioning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not me Frank, I&#8217;ve been battling greedy developers, serial fibbers in state guvmints and opposing changes to environment and planning laws that screw our ecology and scupper community participation for 15 years or more (fat lot of good it did). As for climate change, as far as I&#8217;m concerned science is science, you might think you can pick and choose which bits of science you like and which you don&#8217;t, but IMO that makes you look silly. How polly ticks deal with the science is a whole other thing. On one hand the fed guvmint had to start somewhere, OTOH what&#8217;s been delivered won&#8217;t deliver any meaningful GHG reductions. What much of the last 10 years or so focus on climate has been very successful at is diverting funds and resources needed for conservation of terrestrial and marine ecosystems. Same with media coverage - just about every &#8220;environment&#8221; article in the MSM and here at Crikey in recent years turns out to be about climate change - it&#8217;s as if the dire state of our ecosystems is no longer worth mentioning.</p>
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		<title>By: Hamis Hill</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228870</link>
		<dc:creator>Hamis Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 00:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228870</guid>
		<description>But single-issue conservationist extremism was never ever going to be ecologically sustainable.
Not without also equally applying the International Greens Principles of Economic and Social Justice; Grassroots Participatory Democracy and Disarmament and Non-Violence.
All too hard for the coalitions between Labor and the Wilderness Society, ACF etc, set up to cynically exclude those watermelons from political influence.
To be inevitably overturned on the demise of Labor State administrations.
In the meantime Abbott and Joyce destroy their Coalition&#039;s ETS on the argument that single issue conservationist extremism is a heretical, planet worshipping religion enjoying a supernatural ascendancy owed to a deal with the Devil.( As preached by the good Cardinal)
Abbott and Joyce carrying on ever since like demons called up from the depths of Hell to fight a fire versus fire end game against the red-greenies for the souls of the planet.
Democracy being the sidelined antidote to such politico-religious dementoids as Abbott, Joyce, Pell TWS, ACF and other totalitarian chancers.
Sorry, but you already knew all that, didn&#039;t you?
Stating the bleeding obvious again.
Greenies Ain&#039;t Greens!(Clue: Direct or participatory democracy; not on the greenie song sheet)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But single-issue conservationist extremism was never ever going to be ecologically sustainable.<br />
Not without also equally applying the International Greens Principles of Economic and Social Justice; Grassroots Participatory Democracy and Disarmament and Non-Violence.<br />
All too hard for the coalitions between Labor and the Wilderness Society, ACF etc, set up to cynically exclude those watermelons from political influence.<br />
To be inevitably overturned on the demise of Labor State administrations.<br />
In the meantime Abbott and Joyce destroy their Coalition&#8217;s ETS on the argument that single issue conservationist extremism is a heretical, planet worshipping religion enjoying a supernatural ascendancy owed to a deal with the Devil.( As preached by the good Cardinal)<br />
Abbott and Joyce carrying on ever since like demons called up from the depths of Hell to fight a fire versus fire end game against the red-greenies for the souls of the planet.<br />
Democracy being the sidelined antidote to such politico-religious dementoids as Abbott, Joyce, Pell TWS, ACF and other totalitarian chancers.<br />
Sorry, but you already knew all that, didn&#8217;t you?<br />
Stating the bleeding obvious again.<br />
Greenies Ain&#8217;t Greens!(Clue: Direct or participatory democracy; not on the greenie song sheet)</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228868</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 23:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228868</guid>
		<description>But it&#039;s people like you who got us into this mess, Fractious. Three years ago I predicted the current shambles, every fracking day, on this site. You call yourselves environmentalists, but you were seduced by climate extremism. This fascistic hysteria not only sent cane toads like Jones and Bolt into a spawning frenzy, it&#039;s ruined any chance of intelligent policy on climate. The ridicule, ostracism and abuse directed at anyone who expressed the slightest doubt about climate Armageddon will never be forgotten. The intellectual dishonesty stinks like a fart in a lift. 
We need a new Greens party, and we need it now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it&#8217;s people like you who got us into this mess, Fractious. Three years ago I predicted the current shambles, every fracking day, on this site. You call yourselves environmentalists, but you were seduced by climate extremism. This fascistic hysteria not only sent cane toads like Jones and Bolt into a spawning frenzy, it&#8217;s ruined any chance of intelligent policy on climate. The ridicule, ostracism and abuse directed at anyone who expressed the slightest doubt about climate Armageddon will never be forgotten. The intellectual dishonesty stinks like a fart in a lift.<br />
We need a new Greens party, and we need it now.</p>
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		<title>By: Liamj</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228863</link>
		<dc:creator>Liamj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 22:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228863</guid>
		<description>We at the voluntary human extinction movement applaud this progress report and look forward to another v.strong year, particularly from our flood, fire and famine divisions. Many thanks to our allies in denial, both the fossil fool denier camp and the tech dreamers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We at the voluntary human extinction movement applaud this progress report and look forward to another v.strong year, particularly from our flood, fire and famine divisions. Many thanks to our allies in denial, both the fossil fool denier camp and the tech dreamers.</p>
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		<title>By: fractious</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228861</link>
		<dc:creator>fractious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 22:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228861</guid>
		<description>It wouldn&#039;t be a Crikey article on climate change without a Frank Campbell rant. But anyway, leaving your hysterical rhetoric aside, I fully agree with you on one thing - that the few, slender gains made for the environment made in the 70s, 80s and early 90s are being lost. Not &quot;dismantled&quot; as you put it, but clearfelled and bulldozed. A rash of COALitiion state guvmints and a weak federal environment minister, Fatty O&#039;Barrell unleashing the feral shooters, extending cattle grazing rights in high conservation areas, signing off open cut and longwall mine leases as fast as the applications come through the door, CSG licences ten-a-penny, making election promises to ditch the &quot;corrupt&quot; Part 3A EP&amp;A Act and replacing it with something identical... and that&#039;s just NSW, I won&#039;t even mention what&#039;s going on north of the Tweed or south of the Murray.

Whether you accept the facts of climate change or not, we will still be screwed if we keep up the rate we&#039;re ra ping the environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It wouldn&#8217;t be a Crikey article on climate change without a Frank Campbell rant. But anyway, leaving your hysterical rhetoric aside, I fully agree with you on one thing - that the few, slender gains made for the environment made in the 70s, 80s and early 90s are being lost. Not &#8220;dismantled&#8221; as you put it, but clearfelled and bulldozed. A rash of COALitiion state guvmints and a weak federal environment minister, Fatty O&#8217;Barrell unleashing the feral shooters, extending cattle grazing rights in high conservation areas, signing off open cut and longwall mine leases as fast as the applications come through the door, CSG licences ten-a-penny, making election promises to ditch the &#8220;corrupt&#8221; Part 3A EP&amp;A Act and replacing it with something identical&#8230; and that&#8217;s just NSW, I won&#8217;t even mention what&#8217;s going on north of the Tweed or south of the Murray.</p>
<p>Whether you accept the facts of climate change or not, we will still be screwed if we keep up the rate we&#8217;re ra ping the environment.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228859</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228859</guid>
		<description>Global warming used to be cool. Every urban poseur from Margaret Simons to Hunter S. Rundle and Annabel Crabb genuflected in the Church of Armageddon. Briefly. Before returning to more pressing concerns.

How things have changed in three years...Crikey, once a cauldron of climate hysteria, is now largely silent on the greatest moral challenge. Just the occasional outsourced professional propaganda piece like this one today.

The hubris of the urban progressive is now archived, a memory stick of embarrassment. The Liberals didn&#039;t split into impotence. There was no apotheosis of the Greens. The metrosexual banker swears allegiance to the simian priest. A corrupt and demoralised ALP, presiding over climate policy farce, couldn&#039;t give a frack about global warming. The country clings to its fossil fuel export bonanza while killing off the renewable energy scams.

Meanwhile, out in the Environment, rednecks flourish like noxious weeds. Operation Roll-back has begun. The fragile environmental gains of the past 30 years are being dismantled. Logging will restart in State Forest here a decade after it was killed off. 

No surprise that low postcode Crikey failed to replace the mass of climate hysteria verbiage with anything about the real environment...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Global warming used to be cool. Every urban poseur from Margaret Simons to Hunter S. Rundle and Annabel Crabb genuflected in the Church of Armageddon. Briefly. Before returning to more pressing concerns.</p>
<p>How things have changed in three years&#8230;Crikey, once a cauldron of climate hysteria, is now largely silent on the greatest moral challenge. Just the occasional outsourced professional propaganda piece like this one today.</p>
<p>The hubris of the urban progressive is now archived, a memory stick of embarrassment. The Liberals didn&#8217;t split into impotence. There was no apotheosis of the Greens. The metrosexual banker swears allegiance to the simian priest. A corrupt and demoralised ALP, presiding over climate policy farce, couldn&#8217;t give a frack about global warming. The country clings to its fossil fuel export bonanza while killing off the renewable energy scams.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, out in the Environment, rednecks flourish like noxious weeds. Operation Roll-back has begun. The fragile environmental gains of the past 30 years are being dismantled. Logging will restart in State Forest here a decade after it was killed off. </p>
<p>No surprise that low postcode Crikey failed to replace the mass of climate hysteria verbiage with anything about the real environment&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Duffett</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228858</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Duffett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228858</guid>
		<description>Brent, I am not convinced by Hoegh-Guldberg on this particular point.  He extrapolates coral reef system destruction at the 450 ppm threshold from short-term, highly restricted experiments with artificially elevated CO2.  This conclusion flies in the face of contrary geological evidence, to which he makes scant reference.

While there uncertainties over what rates of change (as opposed to thresholds) are sustainable, the weight of evidence for mine is that coral reefs will prove more resilient than Hoegh-Guldberg believes.

In any case, I hasten to add that this experiment (sustained global CO2 concentration &gt; 450 ppm) is not an experiment we should be running, for a whole bunch of other reasons, even if it proves me right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent, I am not convinced by Hoegh-Guldberg on this particular point.  He extrapolates coral reef system destruction at the 450 ppm threshold from short-term, highly restricted experiments with artificially elevated CO2.  This conclusion flies in the face of contrary geological evidence, to which he makes scant reference.</p>
<p>While there uncertainties over what rates of change (as opposed to thresholds) are sustainable, the weight of evidence for mine is that coral reefs will prove more resilient than Hoegh-Guldberg believes.</p>
<p>In any case, I hasten to add that this experiment (sustained global CO2 concentration &gt; 450 ppm) is not an experiment we should be running, for a whole bunch of other reasons, even if it proves me right.</p>
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		<title>By: AR</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228845</link>
		<dc:creator>AR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228845</guid>
		<description>Hey, Tamas, any reassuring, rabble soothing words?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Tamas, any reassuring, rabble soothing words?</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy Peters</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228844</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228844</guid>
		<description>What is going on in the world of climate change?  Why have the IPCC not been invited to Doha for the first time in 18 years?  Why is the US said to be downgrading the UN to a monitoring role only in climate change? Why is the emphasis being switched to the economics of the big emitters? Why has the World Bank prepared this report? I am confused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is going on in the world of climate change?  Why have the IPCC not been invited to Doha for the first time in 18 years?  Why is the US said to be downgrading the UN to a monitoring role only in climate change? Why is the emphasis being switched to the economics of the big emitters? Why has the World Bank prepared this report? I am confused.</p>
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		<title>By: Achmed</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228841</link>
		<dc:creator>Achmed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228841</guid>
		<description>I think we can debate the rights or wrongs on global warming and there will never be concensus.  Irrespective of the information put forward by both sides of the debate being credible or not has become in some ways irrelevant.
All major political parties have a Carbon Plan to reduce carbon emissions.  The debate is now about how the Liberals and Labor will take the money out of the pockets of the taxpayer.  When you vote next year it will not be about whether or not climate is real or not.  It will be about the whether or not polluters should be made to pay and Govt provide compensation by way of tax cuts etc or Govt giving taxpayer money out of the budget to the polluters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we can debate the rights or wrongs on global warming and there will never be concensus.  Irrespective of the information put forward by both sides of the debate being credible or not has become in some ways irrelevant.<br />
All major political parties have a Carbon Plan to reduce carbon emissions.  The debate is now about how the Liberals and Labor will take the money out of the pockets of the taxpayer.  When you vote next year it will not be about whether or not climate is real or not.  It will be about the whether or not polluters should be made to pay and Govt provide compensation by way of tax cuts etc or Govt giving taxpayer money out of the budget to the polluters.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228829</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 07:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228829</guid>
		<description>Our national paper &quot;The Australian&quot; chose to ignore this topic. Not one word has been printed about the World Bank&#039;s report. Instead of investigating  critical, relevant issues to all Australians and indeed all humans the &quot;Liberal Party Gazette&quot; is more interested in wasting news print on non issues such as Julia&#039;s involvement in the AWU saga from which bugger all evidence has been produced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our national paper &#8220;The Australian&#8221; chose to ignore this topic. Not one word has been printed about the World Bank&#8217;s report. Instead of investigating  critical, relevant issues to all Australians and indeed all humans the &#8220;Liberal Party Gazette&#8221; is more interested in wasting news print on non issues such as Julia&#8217;s involvement in the AWU saga from which bugger all evidence has been produced.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent Hoare</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/20/why-4-degrees-will-end-the-world-as-we-know-it-world-bank-warning/comment-page-1/#comment-228824</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Hoare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=332161#comment-228824</guid>
		<description>Mark Duffet @1 I suggest you go and read the report, and find some references that disprove the studies cited therein before making such sweeping generalisations. No wait, I&#039;ll copy a relevant bit here for everyone:
&quot;Ocean Ecosystems
&quot;Disruption of the ocean ecosystems because of warming and ocean acidification present many emerging high-level risks (Hofmann and Schellnhuber 2009). The rising atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is leading to rapid acidification of the global ocean. Higher acidity (namely, lower pH) of ocean waters leads to reduced availability of calcium carbonate (ara- gonite), the resource vital for coral species and ecosystems to build skeletons and shells.
&quot;The combination of warming and ocean acidification is likely to lead to the demise of most coral reef ecosystems (Hoegh-Guldberg 2010). Warm-water coral reefs, cold-water corals, and ecosystems in the Southern Ocean are especially vulnerable. Recent research indicates that limiting warming to as little as 1.5°C may not be sufficient to protect reef systems globally (Frieler et al. 2012). This is a lower estimate than included in earlier assessments (for example, the IPCC AR4 projected widespread coral reef mortality at 3–4°C above preindustrial). Loss of coral reef systems would have far-reaching consequences for the human societies that depend on them. Moreover, their depletion would represent a major loss to Earth’s biological heritage.&quot; And it goes on...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark Duffet @1 I suggest you go and read the report, and find some references that disprove the studies cited therein before making such sweeping generalisations. No wait, I&#8217;ll copy a relevant bit here for everyone:<br />
&#8220;Ocean Ecosystems<br />
&#8220;Disruption of the ocean ecosystems because of warming and ocean acidification present many emerging high-level risks (Hofmann and Schellnhuber 2009). The rising atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is leading to rapid acidification of the global ocean. Higher acidity (namely, lower pH) of ocean waters leads to reduced availability of calcium carbonate (ara- gonite), the resource vital for coral species and ecosystems to build skeletons and shells.<br />
&#8220;The combination of warming and ocean acidification is likely to lead to the demise of most coral reef ecosystems (Hoegh-Guldberg 2010). Warm-water coral reefs, cold-water corals, and ecosystems in the Southern Ocean are especially vulnerable. Recent research indicates that limiting warming to as little as 1.5°C may not be sufficient to protect reef systems globally (Frieler et al. 2012). This is a lower estimate than included in earlier assessments (for example, the IPCC AR4 projected widespread coral reef mortality at 3–4°C above preindustrial). Loss of coral reef systems would have far-reaching consequences for the human societies that depend on them. Moreover, their depletion would represent a major loss to Earth’s biological heritage.&#8221; And it goes on&#8230;</p>
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