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Federal

Feb 10, 2012

Nostalgianomics and the ongoing rewriting of economic history

The Coalition's rewriting of economic history continues apace as part of its obsession with the Howard years.

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I suggested the other week that the Coalition had embarked on a course of nostalgianomics, an economic policy based on a magic reversion to the “golden age of reform and prosperity” under John Howard.

Yesterday Joe Hockey, responding to Wayne Swan’s statement on the economy, elaborated on the theme.

For a long while it’s been normal for the Coalition to play down the global financial crisis as a way of undermining Labor’s claims have to handled it well, and argue that subsequent deficits are not the result of efforts to save jobs, or the impact of the crisis on tax revenue, but because Labor has a pathological need to waste money.

In the Coalition’s version of recent economic history, certainly in the form relayed by Tony Abbott last week, there was no financial crisis at all. The key event of recent times was the election of the Rudd government, which singlehandedly brought the golden age to a juddering halt by spending too much. Moreover, they spent it so badly that somehow, defying all economic laws, the money completely vanished, because there hasn’t been any jobs growth in the past 12 months.

Almost as if Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard and Swan heaped billions of dollars into a giant bonfire in the Prime Minister’s courtyard and burnt the lot.

I’d call such a rewriting of history “Orwellian”, or even “Stalinist” if I was tempted to risk a reverse Godwin’s Law (you know who else claimed there wasn’t a financial crisis?), but it’s actually fairly standard politics, particularly from an opposition that for a long time now has been trashing its own economic credibility.

Yesterday Hockey went further, not merely failing to mention the events of 2008-09 at all — the government’s stimulus programs were instead “the greatest waste of taxpayers’ money in modern Australian history” — but offering an alternative account in which it was the Howard government that had handled the real economic crises. Hockey dwelt at length on the Asian financial crisis, then threw in the tech wreck (“which led to a near-recession in the developed world”) and the drought as evidence that the Howard government was the real economic crisis manager. “We guided Australia through those difficult episodes with a sure hand and sound policies that were consistent.”

One hopes Hockey doesn’t seriously believe that the Asian financial crisis is comparable to the events of 2008-09, that financial crises in Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and Korea, and subsequent crises in Russia and Brazil, were equivalent to the systemic threats in the very heart of modern capitalism. Surely he doesn’t think, say, that the bailout of Long Term Capital Management was comparable to the bailouts of Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, AIG, Bank of America and the collapse of Lehman Brothers or the dispatch of Merrill Lynch. One hopes he doesn’t seriously think the “near recession” after the tech wreck was comparable to the recession across Europe and the United States that is still unfolding years later.

The Asian financial crisis did set in train events that demanded careful management from the Howard government, but they were foreign policy challenges: the collapse of the Soeharto government and the ensuing events in East Timor. The real economic achievement was Peter Costello’s efforts to sow the seeds of what later became the G20 — and his entirely justified criticisms of the IMF at the time.

Like Abbott last week, Hockey spent far longer detailing the economic achievements of the Howard government (it’s always the Howard government — Costello is never mentioned) than addressing contemporary economic challenges. He even claimed Fitch’s AAA rating in November for the Howard government — “the AAA rating … is built on our efforts, it is built on our surpluses, it is built on our Future Fund” — as a sort of belated economic gong, inconveniently awarded to the Coalition four years late, but their’s nonetheless.

If all this was a cover for a real economic agenda, you wouldn’t worry. But Hockey showed no interest in grappling with the most significant challenges facing the economy. What does the Coalition want to do about a persistently high dollar? The government has nailed its populist colours to the mast — it is now talking about intervening more and more to prop up dying manufacturing sectors such as the aluminium smelting industry, which employs a tiny number of Australians, sucks up hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies a year and spews out 6% of our entire greenhouse emissions. The opposition, until recently making all sorts of similar noises, now appears betwixt and between, willing to continue current levels of protection but silent on where to go beyond that. What would they do if a real disaster did unfold in Europe, sending world financial markets into a deep freeze? Are they content to let monetary policy do the heavy lifting of stimulus?

And then there’s the real question that faces Labor and the Coalition and which, reading Wayne Swan’s statement, is an emerging concern of the government: what happens if there isn’t a disaster in Europe, but it merely drags along the bottom for another two years or more, tortured by uncertainty and the impact of the Axis of Austerity’s fiscal hairshirt, subduing global growth, keeping the Aussie dollar high and putting significant pressure on government revenues here? What’s the Coalition’s fiscal plan in an environment where not merely can they not return to the easy years of the pre-GFC era, but they face much lower revenue growth for years to come? Where are those “aspirational” tax cuts and big spending health programs in such a world?

The evidence they’re doing any thinking about this is thin on the ground. Instead, they want us all to bathe in the warm glow of nostalgianomics.

Bernard Keane — Politics Editor

Bernard Keane

Politics Editor

Bernard Keane is Crikey’s political editor. Before that he was Crikey’s Canberra press gallery correspondent, covering politics, national security and economics.

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386 comments

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386 thoughts on “Nostalgianomics and the ongoing rewriting of economic history

  1. The Pav

    Hey Dear SB,

    Here’s more evidence that the true wasters were Howrad and don’t forget the Abbott was Health Minister under Abbott

    “Now that the Government’s bill to means test the private health insurance rebate has passed the Lower House, Labor is looking to crack down on rorting in dental care.

    An investigation by the Federal Human Services Department has found 48 dentists wrongly claimed millions of dollars through the Commonwealth’s Chronic Disease dental scheme.

    The scheme was set up in the final months of the Howard government at an initial cost of $300 million, but it now costs more than $2.2 billion.

    The program was designed specifically for patients with chronic health conditions, to enable them to receive more than $4,000 worth of dental work under the guidance of their GPs.

    But as Human Services Minister Brendan O’Connor explains, that is not how it has worked in practice.

    “It really is inequitable because a multi-millionaire with diabetes can get more than $4,000 for dental services but a pensioner without a chronic disease gets nothing,” he said.”

    Don’t you just love how Howard looked after his rich mates..bugger the poor pensioner!

    And then there’s the maths ( just like their costing for the previous election) Budget $300 Mill
    Actual $2.2B

    Another nail in the coffin of the misleading claim the Liberals were good managers and further proof of my point that Howard was the true waster.

  2. SBH

    Jim, do you know what video prood is? does it mean some one who stops people looking at video noods?

  3. Jim Reiher

    and pigs fly …

  4. Jim Reiher

    and of course Mr Abbott never said anything against the tent embassy or the indigenous…

  5. Jim Reiher

    of course there is…

  6. Suzanne Blake

    @ Jim Reiher

    You are delusional. You will believe or dream up anything to push your extreme left view.

    There is video and now audio and video prood, what happened here

  7. Jim Reiher

    I have an indigenous friend who was at the Aust. day events that have been alluded to, and he swears to me that Mr Abbott really did say very unkind things about the pervious tent embassy that upset many there, and also that there was no “rioting” at the window of the place where Gillard and Abbott were. There was some gathering, and suddenly the minders rushed Ms Gillard out and (my friend assures me) they were the only people panicing and causing a commotion.

    But lets put Mr Abbott’s life in peril and make the Labor Party responsible for a plot to kill him.

    The bigger the lie….

  8. Peter Ormonde

    Seeing as this discussion is about nostalgianomics … the mention of Milton Friedman brought a flood of memories. Milton was an idealist. He wanted to change the world. He wanted to demolish a lot of it. Imagine an economist armed with napalm.

    So, teary eyed, I went back and had a look:

    One of my favorites:

    “In an ideal free market resting on private property, no individual can coerce any other, all coopera­tion is voluntary, all parties to such coopera­tion benefit or they need not participate. There are no values, no “social” responsibilities in any sense other than the shared values and responsibilities of individuals. Society is a collection of individuals and of the various groups they voluntarily form.”

    Or in the words of Maggie Thatcher: “There is no such thing as society.”

    See, as an idealist, Milton had this real issue with reality. The reality of politics and democracy just kept sabotaging his models and the application of what he knew to be right.

    He got close to the levers of power under Reagan, but found when trapped in stagflation (which he predicted incidentally) he had to use good old Keynesian tactics by increasing the money supply. Really he wanted to abolish the Federal Reserve.

    His preferred option was to force a reduction in living standards, wages and incomes. Reagn’s response: “I don’t give a (expletive deleted) what Friedman thinks. He’s not standing for re-election.

    Under Friedman’s influence we got “trickle down economics”… Reaganomics….
    Under Reagan the top marginal tax rate was cut from 70% to 28%. Meanwhile he pumped up defence spending to record peacetime levels.

    The end result was this:
    ” As a short-run strategy to reduce inflation and lower nominal interest rates, the U.S. borrowed both domestically and abroad to cover the Federal budget deficits, raising the national debt from $997 billion to $2.85 trillion. This led to the U.S. moving from the world’s largest international creditor to the world’s largest debtor nation. ” Wikipedia entry under Reaganomics.

    In short Ronald Reagan … that champion of free enterprise and fanatical red-baiter … sold the USA on the world finance market. And now guess who owns their nuts?

    So it’s sort of comforting that Hockeynomics has got such deep intellectual roots. Bitter fruit though. Fruit they are still eating.

    Nostalgia. … it’s not what it was.

  9. Peter Ormonde

    Filth …

    Truly excellent…. “Do you have a flag?” On such questions are whole Empires built.

    I must watch more of that Eddie Izzard fella … very sharp wit that.

  10. SBH

    I think Hany was being ironic though Peter.

    I’ve always like the land rights flag, simple elegant. But it does highlight the cringing forelock-tugging obsequiousness of the national flag so beloved of so many of our countrymen. I mean what kind of nation is it that has as its most identifiable standard and symbol such a craven image, modelled after nothing more grand that a british departmental flag (yes Viginia the UK Departments of Transport, health and small business have equally regal flags – such proud company for our nations – HUAH! (chest bump)) and the british foot planted firmly on the corner.

    For all the talk of patriotism, ‘special’ values and protecting our borders, the right seem to be happy to have an overlord and to abase themselve before it in the most shameful way

  11. Peter Ormonde

    SBH …

    “….smacks of delusion.”

    Spot on! The whole notion of flag-waving jingoistic nationalism is at its core – deeply delusional.

    They all have a real problem when you ask them what they actually love about the place or the people. What you invariably find is a seething festering visceral hatred.

    About everything pretty much. The way things are. The taxes, the reffos, the schools, the roads, the Moslems, the Chinese. Of course if they had any sense at all they’d be worried about the French and their accursed Jacobin decimalisation. Talk about sneaky!

    The “patriots'” Orstraya is a mythical land … with a misty one-sided white history and a misty one-sided white future. And surrounded by threats – from without and within. Our Way of Life is under constant attack – Our Orstraya. With all this stuff we found. Just found it. Lying here. Like Gina’s dad. Deeply paranoid and frightened bunch at the core.

    To certain type of person a flag is a powerful unifying national symbol … they identify themselves with it… they use it to identify themselves – and it draws people to it who are very attracted to powerful things.

    Has always been thus – hence the last refuge of the scoundrel.

    Delusions can be dangerous.

  12. Filth Dimension

    On the topic of flags. I always enjoyed this. (remove spaces)

    http: / / www. youtube .com/watch?v=hYeFcSq7Mxg

  13. SBH

    Now while I’m on my hind legs

    “You’re wasting your time asking for a name. We’ve barely put the Australia Day Race Riots behind us. Left wing activists were able to find the whereabouts of someone who expressed a view that they interpreted to be in conflict with theirs, and proceeded to beset and attack him. ”

    you’re kidding, right?

    A pack of r*cist thugs riot and set about beating up whole groups of people because of their appearance (and incidently smearing the national day and falg of the country you ‘love’ in mud) and you somehow take that to be an indication of how the left behaves?

    “If not for the presence of a police escort, Tony Abbott may well have died. ” Oh please, tell me you’re not so vulnerable to the crudest suggestions of the Murdoch press.

    “I don’t have my own police escort and I’m not prepared to subject myself to that sort of danger.” You seriously think that by putting your name here you’ll be tracked down and subjected to violence? I don’t know sport, but that just smacks of delusion.

  14. Peter Ormonde

    G’day SBH …

    Yes … see what you mean… what it lacks in graphic adornment it makes up for in a certain directness.

    In a similar vein there’s a bloke getting around up here in a ute with a sticker map of Orstraya on the back saying F… off we’re full! (The censorship is for Mother Moderation and their goodly godly gadgetry… the original shared Mr Lett’s directitude).

    I looked it up – you can buy T shirts. Cool huh?

    He’s not a local – they would not be that rude, they are conservative and polite. They would not say offensive words let alone where there a kiddies present. And if they had such opinions they would spray it about in the pub after a few ales – not wear it on their sleeves. So most people – everyone I’ve chatted to anyway – are appalled – even those who agree with him. I feel like buying him a tank of fuel every now and then. Drive around more Mr Orstraya.

    Far as pretty flags go though you really can’t go past the Kooris …. truly outstanding bit of graphic design. Deeply here. Almost enough to give flags a good name that.

  15. SBH

    I liked Hany Armanious’ flag submitted as part of a 1996 flag competition Peter. The essence of all flags

    http: // www. michaellett. com/product/?productID=99&show=107

    remove the spaces

    try again to avoid moderation (only in the interests of speed)

  16. SBH

    I liked Hany Armanious’ flag submitted as part of a 1996 flag competition Peter. The essence of all flags

    http://www. michaellett. com/product/?productID=99&show=107

    remove the spaces

  17. Peter Ormonde

    Yes folks there we have him …our “true patriot” … cowardly and afraid. A race-hater hiding under the flag. A loather. A True Orstayan oi oi oi.

    Why I don’t like flags. They attract vermin.

  18. Jim Reiher

    Patriot – just back since last night – thanks for apologising for the unkind personal attack. I too apologise for the reply that was in the same vein. I appreciate the return to the debate, and the leaving behind of the other stuff.

    re asylum seeker policy – complex, messy, no easy solution,… I am of the view that we will continue to disagree and not be perusaded by the other.

    I guess my final reflection would be: dont take articles from the Australian as if they are anything close to accurate or factual. It has become so much so now, a voice piece for the coalition, and it will do all it can to undermine the current minority govt. (But you probably know that deep down anyway). There are much better places to get actual material on refugees and asylum seekers.

    Again, thanks for helping to bring the discussion back to the issues.

  19. Jim Reiher

    Patriot – just back since last night – thanks for apologising for the unkind personal attack. I too apologise for the reply that was in the same vein. I appreciate the return to the debate, and the leaving behind of the other stuff.

    re asylum seeker policy – complex, messy, no easy solution,… I am of the view that we will continue to disagree and not be perusaded by the other.

    I guess my final reflection would be: dont take articles from the Australian as if they are anything close to accurate or factual. It has become so much so now, a voice piece for the coalition, and it will do all it can to undermine the current minority govt. (But you probably know that deep down anyway). There are much better places to get actual material on refugees and asylum seekers.

    Again, thanks for helping to bring the discussion back to the issues.

  20. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    “You’re wasting your time asking for a name. We’ve barely put the Australia Day Race Riots behind us. Left wing activists were able to find the whereabouts of someone who expressed a view that they interpreted to be in conflict with theirs, and proceeded to beset and attack him. If not for the presence of a police escort, Tony Abbott may well have died. I don’t have my own police escort and I’m not prepared to subject myself to that sort of danger.”

    Agree we have seen what thugs the ALP and Unions are with Kathy Jackson. Scaring the poor women trying to do her job and protect low paid Union members.

  21. SBH

    Oh and you don’t like the High Court either apparently as you persist in your use of the perjorative but legally meaningless term ‘illegal’ when talking about refugees.

  22. SBH

    Patriot, the problem with your Friedman example – leaving aside it fails to address my question – is that you characterise the government we elected to represent us when decisions are made about how to spend our money as somehow not us.

    As a nation we’ve agreed to an elected government collecting and spending tax on our behalf. It seems like you’d like a different system.

    Seeing as we are talking about tax you seem to have cut yourself off from history. The American ‘patriots’ that you seem to style yourself after were after exactly the result that you seem so unhappy with. They objected to domination by a distant parliament in favour of a government they chose themselves. Exactly the type of government you now criticise for doing the job w elected them to do.

  23. Patriot

    I really am fascinated though, Peter, were you still a communist when you became an economist?

  24. Patriot

    As I said previously illegals are a subset of humanitarian respondents and have much in common with others within the group so the report is indicative of their welfare dependence and non-employment.

    You seem to be suggesting that illegals and other refugees are receiving welfare that they do not need. That seems rather unfair to taxpayers. I ask again – which payments do you think they should get the axe?

    You’re are correct that Friedman is saying it’s inefficient and inherently wasteful in comparison to other spending, but it’s a non sequitur to say that it amounts to an assertion that it should not happen at all.

  25. Peter Ormonde

    Nothing pedantic Mr Rot….

    You started your porkpie-ing by saying :

    “Unemployment and welfare dependence is staggering amongst illegals. I believe around 90% and %95 for Afghans from memory. I will try to find the Immigration report with the figures. It was hidden very well at their web site last time I looked.”

    Turns out this wasn’t “illegals” … it was refugees this report was describing … No difference as far as you are concerned – a pedantic quibble? OK … Let’s just say you don’t want anyone coming in at all – boat, plane whatsadifference? All illegals innit?

    Afghans? … well no not them either… but hey what’s the difference … Afghans, Ethiopians, Sri Lankans … all the same really innit?

    And the report didn’t say what you claimed it said at all… not dependent on welfare – not unless like Judy Sloan, you reckon anyone getting money from Centrelink is “welfare dependent”… somewhere around 30% of the total Australian population – even if you have a kid on Auststudy.

    Then you re-write your own quote. He’s not saying miminised – you are saying that – he’s saying it is wrong and inefficient and inherently wasteful.

    And when I look at the education spending I have squandered on you and your kids – he’s right. But like I said, investing in the world’s poor and eager is a good strategy… 10 of them to one dissatisfied whinger anyday!

    Pastyrot, you’re full of it. And too dumb and dishonest to bother with any more tonight.

  26. Patriot

    You’re wasting your time asking for a name. We’ve barely put the Australia Day Race Riots behind us. Left wing activists were able to find the whereabouts of someone who expressed a view that they interpreted to be in conflict with theirs, and proceeded to beset and attack him. If not for the presence of a police escort, Tony Abbott may well have died. I don’t have my own police escort and I’m not prepared to subject myself to that sort of danger.

  27. Patriot

    Chairperson Ormonde.

    Did you become an economist while you were still a communist?

    Silly me, I was hoping for an answer that didn’t start with yet another straw man caricature of what was said. I’m convinced that you are incapable of any other style of discourse.

    The point he’s making is that the last of the four ways of spending money is the least desirable and should be minimised, not that it should not occur at all. Do you not believe that government spending should be limited in favour of people spending their own money? It sounds like you’re still very much a commie to me.

    I’ve answered all your trivial, pedantic gripes about illegals/refugees above. Use the scroll feature on your interweb machine, lazy.

  28. Peter Ormonde

    Pstyrot,

    Of course I disagree with it … I’m an economist.

    This isn’t economics – this is rhetoric for the self-interested. It is easily understood by the ignorant and the unread. It appeals to the selfish and the shallow. Shopkeeper economics.

    Moreover it has NOTHING to do with a modern economy or the requirements of managing a complex modern economy …. otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered sending you and your kids to school would I? I wouldn’t finance hospitals for you and I’d let you drive on dirt tracks. Spending my money on other people – shocking!

    Now tell me how wrong you were about “illegals” – when you meant refugees, how wrong you were about Afghans in particular being wholesale unemployed and how wrong you are about welfare dependency. Course not. Pastyrots are never wrong. Never. Not when it comes to self-interest.

    Still hiding … go on give us a name to stand behind these brave assertions.

  29. Patriot

    Comrade Ormonde,

    Do you disagree with that particular quote?

  30. Peter Ormonde

    I think we’re getting a pretty clear idea about why Pastyrot chooses to post anonymously don’t you reckon?

    People still quote Milton Friedman? Only people who don’t read.

  31. Patriot

    SBH,

    I just believe that government should always seek to minimise their spending of peoples money on other people. Milton Friedman said it best:

    “There are four ways to spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why you really watch out for what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well then, I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it costs, and I’m not concerned about what I get. And that’s government.”

  32. Patriot

    Jim Reiher,

    I see your comment now.

    “You never answered my comment about how 95% of all boat arrivals end up being accepted as genuine refugees”

    I did – twice! I will answer once more. The approval rate varies over time in relation to politcal objectives. For example, the approval rate for Afghans dropped from over 95% to 30% in just six months, as reported in The Australian article, “Successful asylum claims plummet”. It stretches credulity to suggest that such a change over such a short period could result from a change in the legitimacy of claimants. In the article David Manne says:

    “There is no doubt that there was a correlation in timing between a pattern of high refusal rates and the announcement of the suspension and our political leaders telegraphing that we could expect higher refusal rates.”

    “If they were wealthy and could get tickets and visas, why on earth just not fly here?

    You’ve answered that question yourself. According to your figures, they have a 50/50 chance of being accepted if they fly here. They are almost certain to be accepted if they come by boat.

  33. SBH

    And while we’re looking at the figures would you mind giving suzie a touch up for failing to acknowledge that far from bring some wonderland for fatcats, the DHS lost 1400 staff.

    And if you could get around to it, could you explain the intrinsic problem in increasing APS job numbers, something of substance mind, not just I hate public servants. Perhaps you could give an insight into the reasons behind the decisions departmental heads made in each case. Or you could just fulminate from your ideological (sadly lacking any other kind of logic) high horse about how naught it is for governments to collect and spend tax. For bonus points try not to be insulting.

  34. SBH

    Patriot for a bloke who likes telling everyone how wrong they are you seem to have scant regard for the High Court’s views on unlawful entrants.

  35. Peter Ormonde

    No Pastrytot,

    These are the actual numbers of refugees – not “illegals” (I’m still waiting for you to give me those those numbers for “illegals”) in the detailed appendices Page 77 actually …

    24.1% work for a wage
    1% own their own business
    20.4% study full-time
    10.1% study part time and work
    16.2% study and look after their family
    11..3% unemployed and looking for work
    3.4% unemployed and not looking for work
    0.7% setting up a business
    18.1% looking after family
    4.4% retired
    1.9% voluntary or other unpaid work.

    Now early on – in raising this furphy – you said this:

    “Unemployment and welfare dependence is staggering amongst illegals. I believe around 90% and %95 for Afghans from memory.”

    Now you say this:

    “85.5% of humanitarian respondents are in households that depend on Centrelink payments. 31% are employed, with the other 69% being unemployed, or “unemployed other”.”

    Give me your sources on “illegals” Pastrytot… or admit that you “confused” what you call “illegals” with any and all refugees. All the same ain’t they?

    Next point: Here you go: here’s an estimate of Judy Sloan’s “welfare dependent” Australians from my old mate Jeff Harmer at Fahcsia (he’d proably be pretty good at estimating that sort of thing):

    “Around 4.6 million Australians receive an income support payment of some kind from the Australian Government in the form of a pension or allowance (27 per cent of the population aged 15 years and over)…

    Ref: http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/seniors/progserv/PensionReview/Documents/pension_review/default.htm

    And that was written in 2007 … long before the brutal heel of Labor drove the middle class onto the scrap heap. God knows what the number is now! Shocking isn’t it?

    How will we cope???? – by bringing in people who know how to study hard, work hard and who don’t whine and whinge. If only we could export the Pastrytots.

  36. Patriot

    “..sends people off claiming that people in receipt of a centrelink payment – any centrelink payment – at any level – are “welfare dependent”

    Are you saying that refugees don’t need the payments? Sounds like we agree on something. Which ones should we give the chop?

  37. Patriot

    Illegals are a subset of humanitarian respondents. That’s just being pedantic, Peter.

  38. Patriot

    Comrade Ormonde,

    Just saw your full comment. That is an outrageously misleading digest of the figures. See Attachment C, pages 6-7. 85.5% of humanitarian respondents are in households that depend on Centrelink payments. 31% are employed, with the other 69% being unemployed, or “unemployed other”.

    Do you think our country could survive as it is with that many people living on government handouts? To put it in perspective, in Balga, which is a welfare ghetto and one of the scummiest suburbs here in Perth, 30% of households are living on Centrelink payments.

  39. Peter Ormonde

    Pastryot,

    No mate – you were talking about “illegals” … now you’re talking about refugees. You have made claims about “illegals” – in reality irregular entrants… where are your sources? These numbers you are quoting are about refugees.

    Yes I read Judith Sloan’s piece on this report …. she too sends people off claiming that people in receipt of a centrelink payment – any centrelink payment – at any level – are “welfare dependent”. Pigs, pies and economists eh?

    It’s actually hard to track down a decent number but the best estimates I’ve come across show that somewhere between 33% and 45% of Australians as a whole of working age are in receipt of some form of Centrelink payment. This does not include “one off” payments like the Baby Bonus.

    But it does include things like going to university or TAFE, learning English… that sort of useless waste-of-time ungainful employment.

    Over what period of time are these refugees (not “illegals”) in receipt of these payments Pats? How quickly do they settle in? How quickly did your parents/grandparents get a job when they arrived? And they’d probably been to school. And spoke English. And hadn’t been thrown in prison without charge or conviction for years.. back home or here or somewhere in between. Or all three.

    Read the report – don’t just parrot Judy Sloan’s assertions. Gimme a page number – so we’re reading off the same sheet.

    Wasting their time? Grabbing a chance, getting their bearings, learning a language and a trade, becoming a doctor or lawyer – and they will wipe the floor with the lazy, the ignorant and the whining Orstrayans. And that is what they are frightened of. “Illegals” remember.

    You have obviously had no misfortune in your life Patriot…. no lack of opportunity … no lack of a fair go … Otherwise you would understand a little.

  40. Patriot

    Chairperson Ormonde

    Employment was %9, with 91% doing something other than being gainfully employed. Correspondingly, welfare dependence was 93.7%. I mentioned those figures in response to the claim that refugees fit in well and don’t cause problems. 93.7% welfare dependence is a monumental problem.

    Don’t imagine that I’m sorry for consistently making a fool of you. I’m going to keep absolutely ripping into you for being a communist and for relentlessly arguing with nothing but unconvincing straw men and boring personal attacks.

  41. Peter Ormonde

    PS …

    The actual number for unemployed Afghan refugees … 8.3%.

    Like all “true patriots” … if you’re going to tell a pork-pie … stick in the whole pig. Goebbels knew that.

  42. Patriot

    Jim,

    I know what it’s like with that da_m filter. I’ll be watching for your reply. I was thinking to myself on Sunday morning that the personal stuff I pasted from your page was uncalled for and irrelevant to the discussion. I was going to apologise, then I got back from work and saw your reply hinting at rac_sm, and though, well this guy can obviously dish it out too. While I vehemently object to the policies of the Greens, I really do regret being the first one to make our particular dialogue nasty and personal – sorry Jim!

  43. Peter Ormonde

    “Patriot” … seems my generosity in describing you as a “non-scoundrelly patriot” was perhaps premature.

    You said this:

    “Unemployment and welfare dependence is staggering amongst illegals. I believe around 90% and %95 for Afghans from memory. I will try to find the Immigration report with the figures. It was hidden very well at their web site last time I looked.”

    You then provided me with a link. I looked. It is a long and very clever analysis by DIAC policy unit. I was quite surprised.

    You make things up don’t you Mr P?

    Not a report about your “illegals” … not a mention of “illegals” or “boat people” or even the proper legal term “irregular entries”. Not a word.

    The report looks at how new entrants to Australia fit in… people admitted under the family reunion, skilled and refugee programs – they call it “humanitarian” (it means being kind). Nowhere in the report are outcomes for “boat people” identified or reported.

    For those interested the report (available at http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/_pdf/settlement-outcomes-new-arrivals.pdf) gives the following results regarding unemployment) has some rather useful numbers to dispell some of the myths spread by bigots and liars. Page 28 has the real unemployment numbers. They are surprising good actually.

    The total unemployment amongst humanitarian entrants was 11.7%. This figure of course reflects very much three factors: length of time in Australia, education/skills and English proficiency. The highest rate of unemployment is amongst Ethiopian refugees at 19.3%.

    Last time I looked Ethiopians don’t come by boat – they come out of the camps. “Legals” to use the jargon of patriots and the like.

    Page 17 – on education – has some real in sights – like the fact that 17.3% of all humanitarian entrants have no education whatsoever before their arrival here. I’d have a hunch that number is predominantly women and girls. Encouragingly 23% of all humanitarian entrants have achieved a technical college or university qualification within 5 years of arrival. A whopping 43 of humanitarian entrants with prior university qualifications obtain further qualifications after arrival.

    Send more. We’ll send you our self-styled Patriots. See if you can find a use for them.

    The humanitarian program like a good investment to me. A promising, clever future for them and us. Just shows you what a fair go can do don’t it?

    Well worth a read.

  44. Jim Reiher

    Patriot – I attempted to pick up on some things that were said a lot earlier, but my comment awaits moderation… oh well… it may well be that all of us no longer read this site by tomorrow.

    another crikey issue, another chance to be ridiculed by a man too scared to share his real name, but who uses his pen name to throw out insult and demonstrate ignorance….

    see you on another page whoever you are… (liberal party stooge I am guessing, maybe a rich shareholder in a mining company… oh the possibilities are endless when one hides behind a false name).

  45. Jim Reiher

    The Pav: dont hold your breath mate! Another insult will be all you get.

  46. Patriot

    The Pav,

    That table lists the average staff levels that were employed during each financial year. The average number employed during the last full financial year of the Howard Government, 06-07, was 238,623. The average employed during the first financial year of Labor was 248,217, an increase of around 9500. Short of going through the government figures – which I may do in a moment – a simple way to reckon Labor’s share would be to give them half. That would place the total increase between 19,000 and 20,000.

    What is absolutely astounding to me is that after you claimed to have proven that the increase was around 9000, you claimed victory and demanded an apology on hearing that the increase was just under 15,000. Astounding!

  47. The Pav

    Dear Patriot

    Rudd was sworn in as PM on 3rd December 2007. This means that the first full financial year that involved an ALP govt would have been the one that ended 06/2009.

    This means that your statement “The change from then to the 07-08 average belongs almost entirely to Labor.” couldn’t be more wrong and the information provided by AC is both reasonable fair and accurate.

    These are three things you are sadly lacking.

    I can only assume you are chanelling SB or that you are confirmin g the adage abot patriotism & scoundrels.

    I will accept your apology to myself and AC although I suspect you lack the character to issue it

  48. Patriot

    @Arnold Cheeseman and The Pav,

    You will find that 06-07 was the last full year of the Howard Government. The change from then to the 07-08 average belongs almost entirely to Labor. Now, crawl back under your rocks, both of you fools.

  49. Jim Reiher

    Dogs B – that is what deeply worries me about the popular media. How can recent history be rewritten so quickly, to the advantage of the rich and powerful?

    It is really quite depressing.

  50. Dogs breakfast

    After a million Suzanne Blake non-sequiturs, nobody is going to read this, but:

    “In the Coalition’s version of recent economic history, certainly in the form relayed by Tony Abbott last week, there was no financial crisis at all. ”

    Not just the Coalition, but in Peter Hartcher’s mind as well. See his article in the weekend SMH news review. Apparently it never happened.

    He compares Labor’s record in getting us out of the GFC with only a deficit to worry about, and then compares that record to the Libs in the year’s before during boom revenues, which led to a structural bidget deficit and a middle class entitlement mentality.

    According to Hartcher the GFC never happened.

    He has gone off the rails somewhere in the last couple of years. Thankfully there are a lot of more intelligent journos at SMH.

  51. Jim Reiher

    Patriot… still out there?

    Clearly you chose to ignore my comments about why you attack the person instead of the arguments
    You try to do that latter too – though not very well…

    And why the pen name? I think you are terrified of everything Patriot (and what a terrible pen name! Do you have the Australian flag flying off your car window as well?). Why hide behind a pen name? Oh I know… so no one can work out if you are a Liberal party stooge on line, or not. No one can check into the veracity of your arguments by considering your experiences and background, your education or intelligence.

    But you are sure you are right, of course. Who can possibly convince you otherwise? I mean seriously… you have convinced yourself that you can call asylum seekers “illegals” so you keep on doing it. You have your rationale. You have a clever little arguement to do it! So who cares what the High Court or any other court in the country would say! Mr Patriot who wont use his real name has worked it all out! So lets all stand and applaud the genius who is too terrified to use his real name.

    You never answered my comment about how 95% of all boat arrivals end up being accepted as genuine refugees, so that undermines your unsubstantiated claim that they are rich people finding an “easy” way to bypass the immigration system.

    Do you realise how stupid your theory sounds!? They risk their lives on leaky boats, and give away whatever they can scrape up – often borrowing money and ending up in ugly debt to do it – and you think they are rich people somehow bypassing the “real queue”. If they were wealthy and could get tickets and visas, why on earth just not fly here? Or somewhere else that takes people with lots of money?

    But hey… keep on living in your bubble. The world is a lovely place and these dirty people have no right pretending to need to get away from their homeland.

  52. Filth Dimension

    S.B – repeating it twice doesn’t make it any more valid.

  53. Suzanne Blake

    @ Meski

    Howard was past his use by date, and his seat was marginal <10%.

    Forget popularily, just ask them what they think of

    Gillard
    Swan
    Rudd
    Thompson
    Albanese
    Garratt
    Carbon Tax
    Debt
    Quality of life pre and post Rudd.

  54. Suzanne Blake

    @ Meski

    Howard was past his use by date, and his seat was marginal <10%.

    Forget popularily, just ask them what they think of

    Gillard
    Swan
    Rudd
    Thompson
    Albanese
    Garratt
    Carbon Tax
    Debt
    Quality of live pre and post Rudd.

  55. Brian62

    Obsessive Sue,I will leave you with your alter ego’s to prosecute your perpetual propaganda campaign Suzanne ,my response is one of genuine pity for your malady,please try to decipher this offering, “Fear is that thing that keeps you up there on that other plateau.Fear is that thing that just keeps you closed down, and quite frankly, alone.”
    Andrew Shue.

  56. Meski

    SB:

    As I have said before, spend an hour in a marginal electorate and ask people over 18 what they think about the Federal Government, you may be shocked with the answer.

    Unlikely. Governments are rarely popular, whether they are governing badly or well. John Howard in 2007 was hated so much he lost his seat, which wasn’t exactly marginal!

  57. Brian62

    Jimmy sadly your right it seems she has no control, she’s of obsessing on today’s Bernard Keane article,poor woman.

  58. Jimmy

    God this thread is depressing, SB and the hole in the logic gang really do make me wonder why I even read the posts on this website.

    Filth – Well put.

    Brian62 – Basic facts are well beyond her grasp let alone worthwhile engagement, give it up it’s a lost cause.

  59. The Pav

    Dear Arnold,

    Welcome to the debate. You realise you are wasting your rationality on SB & Patriot though

    Thanks for further evidence of how whacked out SB & Patriot is. Don’t expect a retraction of the misinformation they peddle. They simply lack the character & intellect. They are inherently dishonest which is why they support Abbott yet to hide this by shrilly accuse others of lying irrespectove of the truth.
    Their contention was that the number of Public Servants was an indicator of waste. Whilst this is a contention I don’t support for the sake of argument I analysed the number. This showed that on their measure the Howard govt was SIX times worse than the subsequent ALP Govt.

    There response to factys was SB repetition of a throwaway line on q&A ( this serves as research for that particular moron) and when subsequently held to account for that number then said some thing along the lines that it wasn’t her number she was just repeating it. Like I said she’s an umprincipaled moron

    Patriot is nearly in the same league. and any wayt I seem to recall the sayaing “Patriotism – The last refuge of the scoundrel’

    I like the way that Laurie Oakes pointed out that the Howard Govt was the largest taxing/spending govt in history buy a huge margin and with out the excuse of a GFC

    Don’t expect any sort of common sense response from those two ……( words fail me he). They are just completely brainwashed. They probably regard Gina’s effort as good poetry!

  60. Suzanne Blake

    @ GeeWizz

    Yes looking forward to 4 corners tonight.

    Did you see Rudd in Parliament today, he spent the whole time using a yellow
    highlighter, every time they showed him he was head down.

    I bet what he is highlighting is in the bin when he gets back to the his office. Its all show

  61. Filth Dimension

    S.B a discussion requires at least 2 people. Seeing as you come across as a pre-recorded LNP radio announcement, there is no discussion.

  62. GeeWizz

    Suzanne,

    They like to hear that all is going well in Rome. Everyone loves Gillard and her chalkboard voice.

    Yes SHE and Wayne Swan were the ones directly responsible for the ETS being dumped under Rudd, they were the ones who demanded it. Thats why when she came to power she said there would never be a Carbon Tax under her government… it was her idea in the first place to dump it.

    But then the election was held and the Greens effectively took power. Now Gillard doesn’t believe in anything, she has to be told what she wants and doesn’t want… she has been described as being “wooden” by her own party, she lies, has a big nose and is a puppet to the Green. Yes thats right, our Prime Minister is actually Pinnocohio in disguise and she wants to grow up and be a REAL Prime Minister.

  63. Brian62

    SBH, I believe everyone seeks worthwhile engagement, perhaps Suzanne deserves a fair hearing the choice is hers to grasp.

  64. SBH

    Brian, many commentors have tried at various times but it’s just not worth it. Marullus berating the cobbler comes to mind.

  65. Suzanne Blake

    @ Brian62

    As I have said before, spend an hour in a marginal electorate and ask people over 18 what they think about the Federal Government, you may be shocked with the answer.

    Its always passion with me. I realise that 95% of the readers here are extreme left, left or something, but I don’t mind the discussion.

  66. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    You are saying it is ok for a couple of boatloads of people can drown as that will stop the boats,hope abbott comes out with that,think your both sick.

  67. Brian62

    Is that the best you can do Suzanne, what about allowing yourself to be understood, to hard for you?

  68. Suzanne Blake

    @ Brian62

    With O’Neill, its public domain. The pool was discussed by Fair Trading Minister to media last week.

  69. Brian62

    Suzanne Blake re your post at 1:01 pm:”I am just passionate about what is happening” without trying to wind you up, can you appreciate that your “passion” can sometimes be reasonably at times seem to cross the line to one of obsession,your disclosure of the purported private matters for example of Deborah O’Neill for example, is that passion or propaganda, perhaps you claim it as fact,I don’t know my question is,is it necessary? does it make you more believable? of course I defend your right to opinion that’s a given,I would very much like to appreciate your input on a human level,unfortunately by your style you make engagement very difficult, I invite you to engage on that human level,is that to difficult for you, essentially I’m saying come out come out wherever you are on a reasoned human level,can you do that I’ve opened my door you can do it to,if you want to.

  70. Suzanne Blake

    @ Oscar Jones

    Probably after the Queensland landslide is my tip.

  71. Oscar Jones

    All this is very interesting but why is everyone diverting from the narrative ? : when is Kevin Rudd making a tilt for the leadership?

  72. Arnold Cheeseman

    @Patriot

    Sorry but I’m a little late to this party. But if this is an indication of the right wing’s ability at maths, then I’m not surprised the Liberals have a $70 Billion hole in their costings.

    “The Pav,

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst6-03.htm

    See Table 22: Estimates of Average Staff Levels (ASL)

    An increase of over 20,000 since Labor took over. You don’t have a problem with Wayne’s numbers, do you?”

    Table 22: Estimates of Average Staff Levels (ASL)

    2007-2008 – 248,217
    2011-2012 – 262,995

    262,995 – 248,217 = 14,778

    No, we don’t have a problem with Wayne’s numbers, just yours.

  73. Suzanne Blake

    @ GeeWizz

    Nope you would not have seen any Greens in the water, they would be reading about it the follow day in Hairy Legs Cafe, reading the local socialist rag.

  74. GeeWizz

    Suzanne did you see what David Marr and Greenies like Sarah Hanson-Young said when the boat crashed on the rocks on Christmas Island…. they were demanding to know why the Navy Personell didn’t save them all on the 5 meter high swells.

    Of course the lefties would have went out and saved them themselves, except it was half price latte and muffin day down at Starbucks.

  75. SBH

    So not working then Geewiz

    And paid by the post or by the word you semi-literate bonehead Blake?

  76. Suzanne Blake

    @ SBH

    I pay for the privledge of being on Crikey, nothing flows back the other way.

    I am just passionate about what is happening, like so many others in my electorate.

    I have never seen more interest in federal politics that I have in the last few years.

    People use to steer away from politics, not anymore. Major worry for Gillard.

  77. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    The Greens don’t want to stop the boats, cause it means less illegals and less future votes.

    They want the vulnerable / uneducated to vote for them, cause they don’t know any better.

    I went pass Rachel Siewert office the other day. She is a Green senator in WA.

    Guess where her office is? In the middle of Indian, Chinese, Afghan and similar communities in Perth. Not a tree in sight in any direction.

  78. GeeWizz

    [“@GEEWIZZ,
    Under abbotts turn all boats back ,the only place they will swim is in the ocean a lot will drown.”]

    After a couple of times of this the boats will stop coming as they stopped coming under Howard.

    No boats = No sinkings = No Deaths

    We have seen under the leftwing experiment of open borders that drownings and deaths have increased exponentially.

    You stop the boats, you stop the deaths. You stop the boats, you stop the costs. It really is commonsense to anyone who doesn’t have their head up their proverbial.

  79. SBH

    And of course Suzanne Blake is paid by the Liberal Party to put up comments so she’s working of course

  80. SBH

    You seem to have a fair bit of spare time to trot out your xen*ph*bia Geewiz. Are you working?

  81. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    Under abbotts turn all boats back ,the only place they will swim is in the ocean a lot will drown.
    Why do you deny abbott hideous turn the boats back policy,under that policy nauru is not needed either ,although it was costed by a catering company instead of treasury.

  82. Suzanne Blake

    @ GeeWizz

    You are right. Thats why when you check in at foreign airports you see the airline staff checking the non Australian travelers passport for a valid visa, cause they know if then land without one, the airline is out of picket sending them back home on the retun flight.

    When we travel to India and China, they check for a valid visa as well as the same applies.

    These lefties obviously don’t travel or are in a permanent trance.

  83. GeeWizz

    [“Onshore processing with release into the communty will reduce costs dramatically. The only osts will be he monitoring in the community”]

    Will you be taking responsibility when boats sink and people die, or will you pull the Greens trick and blame the Navy personell from the comfort of your inner city office?

    [“Yes even suspected terrorits they can be monitored by Electronic Monitoring by Anklet GPS and put in small country towns with minimal targets. “]

    The lefties will never accept this, they will say it’s torture and inhumane.

    Christ didn’t you see them carrying on about boaties not having unlimited access to the swimming pool at the Darwin detention centre? The left won’t be happy unless we have an open door policy… of course the left don’t work, so the right have to pay for it. Fair deal eh?

  84. GeeWizz

    [“On Asylum Seekers. You are being extreme. Arrive by boat lock them up. Arrive by plane release them into the community”]

    People who arrive in Australia without a valid visa by plane are NOT released into the community.

    It’s a leftwing fantasy.

    No Visa, no entry… thats how it works at the airports and it’s how it should work at our sea borders.

  85. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    Like sb your all supposition,no facts.

    The AWB was govt owned for longer than you have been alive,the oil for wheat was under the AWB and AWB ltd,both were doing kickbacks,how conveinient to say the AWB is a private company and let it go at that,that is called deceit.

  86. Brian62

    SBH by way of enlightenment my position is frankly this,as a potential subscriber to Crikey in my present capacity as a designated “Squatter” I have reservations as to quality of investment not in terms of Crikey’s journalistic input,the primary impediment to my lack of decision is my inability to suffer obsessive fools who without doubt of course have a right to their point of view,whether I can overcome my inability to suffer fools and subsidize inanity is my problem and I thank Crikey an exceptional information source for their generous indulgence in my vacillation, and yes the only thing I can truthfully change is me,The time has come,’ the Walrus said,
    ‘To talk of many things:
    Of shoes — and ships — and sealing wax —
    Of cabbages — and kings —
    And why the sea is boiling hot —
    And whether pigs have wings.’

  87. Brian62

    SBH the objective is to give voice to a certain “Section” of Inanity, a prime example of which is this candidate: “Suzanne Blake
    Posted Monday, 13 February 2012 at 7:39 am | Permalink

    @ Schnappi

    I guess you were watching the ABC on Sunday morning “Insiders” with their lopsided left wing rants”. :Surely Suzie is potential Insider in that Sectioning

  88. SBH

    honestly, I read through the off point drivel that comprises much of the above and wonder why Crikey leaves these threads open for so long

  89. guytaur

    My apologies for the typos in last post.

  90. Brian62

    Floorer@”I’ll send that slacker Gabriel down to mow your lawns.Incidentally Brian, how is your life?” thanks for your kind gesture,my life is significantly improved by the experience of having intercourse with God in a good humored way, Floorer fyi the original quote re god was a sign outside a church in Melbourne that read,”If God seems a long way away guess who moved” have a nice day .

  91. guytaur

    @Sb. Your respose shows you live in fantasy land.

    Ignoring facts youdo not like is the start of the roaf to insanity. Faailingto see reality is delusional.

  92. Suzanne Blake

    @ guytaur

    No need, let me run Immigration and it will have it sorted in a few weeks, and save us billions.

    Will upset if a lot of Greens, but the other 88% of Australias will be cheering.

    People smugglers out of business. Some Asians neighbours will have a income drain and wont be happy either.

  93. guytaur

    @Sb

    As I pointed out to you. To act consistently we must send our Airports off shore.
    Which countries do you suggest.

  94. Suzanne Blake

    @ guytaur

    It needs to be offshore, we need to remove the incentive to make the trip. Those arriving by plane get returned by same airline to same place they started under International Treaty. The ones that have a valid say tourist Visa who claim refugee status after they clear the airport, should be told their application has failed and they should be send home, and told to apply there.

    It we start acting consistently tough, we will send a message.

    At the moment we are seen as weak and manipulatable.

  95. guytaur

    @Sb

    I agree with you that people enterring the country illegally should be deported.
    The process for determining Asylum seeker or illegall. Should be Onshore. It is for those arriving by Plane. Otherwise what countries Re you suggesting we relocate our International Airports to?

  96. Suzanne Blake

    @ guytaur

    The ‘offshore processing’ in Malaysia you speak of is a poor solution for Australia.

    Gillard and boy Bowen are snookered, cause they have already given Malaysia around $400 million and not one refugee, yet we took 1400 from them.

    They are laughing at Boy Bowen in KL. (Just like the Asians laugh at Rudd, who has lost all face at being sacked, yet lingers around)

    You even have Trade Minister Emerson, making a flying few hour visit to KL next month for a Trade photo shoot. Smooth them over on the rest of the hundreds of millions boy Bown has promised.

  97. guytaur

    Onshore processing with release into the communty will reduce costs dramatically. The only osts will be he monitoring in the community. Yes even suspected terrorits they can be monitored by Electronic Monitoring by Anklet GPS and put in small country towns with minimal targets.
    This will speed a return to Budget Surplus be humane and of course not breah security and mean Australia retains control of her borders. We will have decided that we will not be the modern equalivant of countries saying no to Jews flleing the Nazis.

  98. guytaur

    @Sb

    Good attempt to justify your extremism. An extremism that is costing the country billions of dollars.

    However given your position why are you not screaming vitriol at Tony Abbott for opposing off shore processung?

  99. Suzanne Blake

    @ guytaur

    I said if they arrive by boat without documentation, they get returned within a few days.

    They arrive by plane without documentation / visa, the airlines who bought them has to return them.

    The ones that arrive by boat with documentation should be processed offshore / cut out the incentive completely.

    The ones that arrive by plane on a valid visa and then request refugee status, should be returned to their country for processing.

    Thise with money who forge it, should NEVER be allows into Australia for any reason.

    So in short, you want refugee status here, request it through an Australian Embassy or Consulate offshore. Period.

    You cannot forge documentation like you use to, its easily spotted these days.

  100. guytaur

    Lol @ Sb. Yeah Malcolm Farr from The Daily Telegraph really is a left wing ranter.

    On Asylum Seekers. You are being extreme. Arrive by boat lock them up. Arrive by plane release them into the community. Do not give baloney about documentation. Those with money can pay to forge that.

  101. Suzanne Blake

    @ Schnappi

    I guess you were watching the ABC on Sunday morning “Insiders” with their lopsided left wing rants.

  102. Suzanne Blake

    @ guytaur

    I actually agree that we should stop Japan and be more proactive protecting our territory, like I was arguing with Marilyn over Macquarie Island a month or so ago.

    Its just the other extreme Green policies.

    They are clever, too clever sometimes. They know that if they welcome the illegals, its more voters for them when and if they get citizenship. They and certain teachers brainwash school kids, and that works as well in most cases.

  103. guytaur

    @SB

    “Extreme Greens”? Really you join Japan in attacking the Sea Shepard?

    FYI. Premier Robin Gray labeled now Senator Bob Brown extreme for taking action to save the Franklin.

    Using US Republican political tactics of labelling the opposite side extreme to make out you are moderate does not work in the US. It will certainly not work here.

  104. shepherdmarilyn

    They might not have made money directly but they were aware that AWB were breaking the law and did nothing but cover it up to make illegal sales and starve people to death.

  105. GeeWizz

    [“Some here have mentioned the slowness of fairwork,yet they do not say how long the AWB investigation has gone on for ,where howard and others can be charged with real crimes against Australians and taxpayers”]

    How much money did Howard and “others” make out of AWB exactly, a private company who represent the interests of wheat growers?

    You are talking out of your ar5e as usual and should be careful about what you claim.

  106. Schnappi

    Some here have mentioned the slowness of fairwork,yet they do not say how long the AWB investigation has gone on for ,where howard and others can be charged with real crimes against Australians and taxpayers,liberals should clear their own crimes ,instead of diverting their crimes to smaller ones.
    Still not happy with letting the investigation of abetz and brandis get off not being investigated over the godwin gretch affair.

  107. floorer

    BRIAN 🙂 not humorless really,an as an act of goodwill, I’ll send that slacker Gabriel down to mow your lawns.Incidentally Brian, how is your life?

  108. Brian62

    All you god’s are fatuously humorless spirits.lol

  109. floorer

    Btw Brian I see while you graced Fauna and Floorer with capitals God did not get that offering despite a vague insinuation that both us F’s were unbelievers………..? I’m sorry if I’m dragging you away from the serious side of things,the fatuity distracted me.

  110. Patriot

    They put a comment with the l word up in less than 4 minutes, though it could have just been a coincidence that they checked for comments at that moment.

  111. floorer

    Patriot,the mod has gotten bored sh*tl*ss and gone home.

  112. Brian62

    One last response given your @patriot post Suzanne suggest you read F Scott Peck ‘People of the Lie” if you do so you will recognize your good self as possibly being what he describes as “genuinely inherently evil” , Peck a psychiatrist of decades experience gives an accurate account of those of your persuasion,another book that may shed some light on the conundrum that is Suzanne Blake is “Why am I Afraid to tell you who I am”, don’t bother Suzie I know who you are, and your a lost cause.

  113. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    With 5 houses, 2 kids at Private Schools and the $5,500 potential fine for no pool fence, she has cash to burn.

    Oops, she loses the Health Rebate, so there goes $1300 a year.

  114. floorer

    Slightly nonsensical Brian but thank you. I had money on fauna showing up at some stage so that’s a free lunch for me. 🙂

  115. Patriot

    Moderator is obviously following this closely.

  116. Patriot

    @Suzanne Blake

    Yes, they sit next to each other in the camera shot of the despatch box. Laura’s favourite look is one of indescribable shock and disgust – like she’s just seen a flasher expose himself. Deborah’s favourite is the “down the nose” look of someone who’s just been asked for change by someone prostrate on the ground.

  117. Brian62

    If god seems a long way away,he has melted into the Fauna and Floorer unbelievers.

  118. Patriot

    @Suzanne Blake

    Yes, they sit next to each other in the camera shot of the despatch box. Laura’s favourite look is one of indescribable shock and disgust – like she’s just seen a flasher expose himself. Deborah’s favourite is the “down the nose” look of someone who’s just been asked for change by someone lying on the ground.

  119. floorer

    THIS IS GOD,THE FLAGELLATION PERIOD HAS ENDED.PLEASE RETURN TO YOUR NORMAL SERVITUDE.IF YOU THINK THIS IS STUPID SO IS FLOGGING YOURSELVES OVER NOTHING THAT WILL CHANGE ANYTHING FOR TWO(ISH)DAYS.BLESS.

  120. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    Thanks I did not know that. Laura Smyth must sit next to Deborah O’Neill an a Labor MP in our area (she replaced the famous Belinda IguanaGate Neil, married to John Della Bonka).

    Deborah O’Neill makes me laugh as well, she is excellent at staring at Gillard when she speaks, like its the 10 Commandments, does not bat an eyelid. Nods on queue.

    She is also the MP who:

    1. Has 5 houses in her electorate, moved from the Copacabana Beach one to one on the water at Bensville. so much for worrying about sea level rises. Her land tax bill must be a whopper.

    2. She was busted last week for having the new pool at Bensville filled with no fence around it and worse having her electronic security gates open, so any kid could walk in a drown. She said she did not know she needed one with a security gate out front, despite the fact its mostly open according to locals.!!!

    3. She chooses to send her two kids to Private schools in Sydney. One of them to Kings School (biggest land area of any school in Australia and one of the highest fees). So much for Public education. The other kids go to a Girls Private School on Sydney’s North Shore.

    4. She rocks up to a Nursing Home with then health minister Plibersek, who tells the elderly people that we need the carbon tax as we risk sea inundation on the Central Coast.

    Gee we are well served Craig Thompson and Deborah O’Neill.

  121. Brian62

    Suzanne you will no doubt be comforted to know, given my waste of your precious time I now also know what it feels like to be like your nemesis Graeme Bird,the object of the exercise was to appeal to your sense of social responsibility,the life of a broadband oxygen thief is not for me,still it beats the hell out of living in a world with a population of one, at which you have no peer,may your crusade reap it’s just rewards and your god hold you answerable,silly me it took numerous statements to entice you out,and you still maintain your Inanity,there is no hope for the hopeless.

  122. Patriot

    @Suzanne Blake

    LOL. That sums up their goals pretty well. Jim was the Greens candidate for La Trobe in 2010. He got 10,931 votes, 12.3% of the primary. Preferences went to Laura Smyth, who took the seat from Liberal by less than 2,000 votes. We’ve all seen Laura. She’s the one that sits in the camera shot behind Julia in Parliament, pulling faces at everything the opposition says. We have a Labor-Green government and a carbon tax and open borders because people voted for this guy to represent them. That just does my head in.

  123. Suzanne Blake

    @ Brian62

    Menzies House – you mean that think tank, with that twat Julian whatever his name is who can fight his way out of a wet paper bag. I don’t think so

  124. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    Jim Reiher is an extreme Green, like Sarah Hanson Young, their policy is to let every illegal in and attract more.

    They want the borders open and to accept them all gleefully.

    When we cant sustain them, society breaks down and we go back to hunters and gatherers, which is what they want. Grow what you need, no more, limited fuedal trading, lots of trees, hemp, weed and welfare.

  125. Brian62

    Finally in parting as Nick Cave said in “More News from Nowhere,”Goodbye”lol

  126. Brian62

    Some comfort Suzanne,even though we’ve got your number here’s one for you from our old mate Bob Dylan the inciteful/insightful one “You’ve gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
    But you know you only used to get juiced in it
    And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
    And now you find out you’re gonna have to get used to it
    You said you’d never compromise
    With the mystery tramp, but know you realize
    He’s not selling any alibis
    As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
    And say do you want to make a deal?

    How does it feel
    How does it feel
    To be on your own
    With no direction home
    Like a complete unknown
    Like a rolling stone ?” / trolls bridge things?lol

  127. Brian62

    Tell Geewhiz to seek deep cover,Siberia is ideal this time of year via the Chinese Auction of course,but keep it dark Suze,arrivedeci xx

  128. Brian62

    Don’t be despondent Suzie you’ve still got lifetime membership at Menzies House,as hard as it will be, please don’t mouth off about it, xx you know who?

  129. Brian62

    And the cock crowed quatro times, wrong headed Judas Expatriot eat your own heart out.SFB

  130. Patriot

    Peter,

    www . immi. gov . au/media/publications/research/_pdf/settlement-outcomes-new-arrivals.pdf (remove spaces)

    9% employment and 93.7% welfare dependence for Afghans.

    I’ve posted a reply to Jim but it has come to the attention of the filter. Nice counterarguments, Peter: You’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong and you’re wrong. Quite an improvement on making stuff up and arguing against it.

  131. Brian62

    “Suzanne regrets she’s unable to see you again, she’s leaving for an Auction in China next week she’ll be busy till then” Sooz has blown her cover Cori, no contact other than the usual innocuous Dr Bernado’s, sorry I can’t say Bernadi’s it’s in the public interest, apologies in order, Dr Hook,Shifty Sooz and Dr Bernado, oh and not to forget my conspiracy theory?now I know what it’s like to be like you Sue!lol.

  132. Patriot

    Jim Reiher,

    On the question of whether they can be called illegals, I made the argument the other night that they travel through Malaysia and Indonesia – neither of which are signatories to the convention – in violation of their respective immigration laws. They enter and travel with no intention of complying with their obligations, nor of applying for asylum in those countries. That is very clearly an act of illegal immigration and that’s why I can them illegals. Unfortunately, about 6 of my posts making that argument were deemed unacceptable by the moderators and were deleted. In one sense you are correct that my ignorance is best seen in the way I use the term – I’m not ignorant at all!

    The points I was trying to make – I thought I did so quite clearly and succinctly – are that the disparity between acceptance rates for illegals and other applicants results not from any difference in the legitimacy of theirs claims, but from the political pressure to get illegals out of detention and to accept their claims. The Labor-Green government is acutely aware of voter anger at the expense of detention, and of the difficulties of forcible repatriation of people without identification. It is a travesty of humanitarianism that illegals gain preferential treatment of their claims by doing nothing more than obfuscating their identity and being a burden on taxpayers.

    The existence of this double standard in assessment is made even more abhorrent by the fact that this alternative processing pathway is indeed available only to those with tens of thousands of dollars to pay for forged documents and travel with smugglers. That is not simply an assertion that I’m making. It is the subject of investigative reporting in The Guardian based on the statements of smugglers and forgers themselves.

    To state my objection very clearly and concisely – and to distance it from irrelevant issues, like legal immigration, visa compliance in Australia, race, population, etc. – illegals should be stopped because they compromise the integrity of our humanitarian program. They exploit poor policy by making unverifiable asylum claims in a lenient assessment system available only to wealthy law breakers. They deny resettlement to real refugees by using our limited number of humanitarian intake places as a back door to economic migration.

  133. Lord Barry Bonkton

    Guy’s Scroll the Trolls . I think S.B /troffie/ Geewizz are paid by Crikey as entertainment and a Click Bait. Its a Ltd News trick.

    Don’t Feed the Village idiots , thankfully S.B is past her breeding days.

  134. Suzanne Blake

    @ Peter Ormonde

    “What should the Government do Sooz? Ban Chinese buying our stuff? Stop buying Chinese stuff? Starve them into submission?” Are they breaking any laws? Why is it OK for yanks and poms to own our stuff but not these “sneaky communists”?

    We should STOP the Chinese buying Australian mines, farmland and real estate and taking us over by stealth. Its open slather and it pushed up prices.

    Have you been to any commercial auction, they are buying 80% of it, they cant speak English and have translations and have flown in from China. I went to one and they bought a KFC on a 20 year + + lease for around 4% yield. Dumb.

    I asked the auctioneer and and agent there at the end and they fly back to China and add it to the collection. Similar for residential and farm lands.

  135. Boo

    Geewizz: ‘To Ignore is to be Ignorant.’

    One should know. The ignorance is pervasive in your posts and indeed the popular media. There is no need to do more than ignore and repeat meaningless and ignorant slogans and party lines.

    You, SB and so on are hubris personified. Will it bring the liberals undone again?

  136. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    Who is lying ,you or abbott or both,the liberal policy is to turn back all boats at all costs,check it out,although they backflip on something every day.

  137. Brian62

    Why does this piece posted by Fran Barlow on pure Poison bring to mind Geewhiz,Suzanne Blake and Patriot “Those of you who follow the whole Tea-Party/Astro-turfing/Koch Bros thing have probably seen this, but just in case and for those who haven’t:

    Trolling Amazon for “Liberty”

    H/T “Albatross” at Skeptical Science

    This is called “freeping” — the attempt to distort self-selection polls on the internet by rallying the faithful.

    The lead “guerilla” activist for the Tea Party goes in search of “liberal books” and gives them 1 star ratings. 80% of the books he rates, he avows in the video, he has never read. Apparently, he does this for 30 minutes each day. This tactic was needed, the Tea Party chap said, “to give our ideas a chance to survive”. He stood in front of a classic Uncle Sam recruiting poster with the caption “the blogosphere needs you”. He spoke of the “American Revolution”. That explains a lot. For them, this is culture war rather than intellectual engagement.” the similarities are uncanny it seems to me.

  138. Jim Reiher

    Patriot – your ignorance is best seen in the way you use the term “illegals” for asylum seekers. It is impossible for those two words to go together (especially in a country that has signed the UN convention on refugees) but very ignorant (or racist) people do just that. It blurs the discussion and emotionally drags the less informed to your side of the debate. Woeful. Any and every human being has the right to be an asylum seeker. And – by the way – it does have anything to do with how much money you might or might not have.

    Also – you posted my “history with the Greens Party” (a summary of it) for some reason. Interesting….
    Yes: As I have said in other posts on other days, I was a very active member of the greens for 9 years and still see them as my preferred party (by a long way!), but what on earth has that got to do with the discussion here? Oh. Hang on. More of your: “lets not debate the issues, lets have a shot at the speaker” strategy …. Woeful.

    By the way “Patriot” – why dont you use your real name? Scared someone will do something similar to you? Gutless, hypocritical, and woeful.

    Back to some facts (instead of exaggurations and repeating what you read in the Australian!):

    You know, of all the people who get locked up for coming on boats (not planes – they live in the community) – in the end 95% are deemed to be real refugees. So your assertions that they are liars and faking the persecution they face etc, is just WRONG. By the way, when plane arrivals come in and live in the community while their claims are assessed, you know how many end up being accepted as real refugees? about half. Half! But they ALL get to live in the community while assessed. While the group that is almost ENTIRELY GENUINE REFUGEES get locked up.

    But somehow that is the right system….

    You have got to be kidding.

  139. Brisbane James

    Monkey’s throwing excrement at each other from their own tribal corner of the cage…

    Even the most deranged able to score the occasional direct hit.

    Is this what normally happens in the politically-themed comments section of this website’s articles, over the weekend, when the Trollherders are taking a load off with a constitutional cuppa or fortifying ale?

    Is there an office bounty for comment number?
    If so, this weekend I think it’s Bernard Keane’s Shout!

    Well, it does make for an entertaining read. Thanks.

    Slightly more on-topic:
    Don’t believe what politicians tell you. They are there to get re-elected, not tell the truth. In that context, dredging over past events to display with a fresh coat of Spin, for present-day point-scoring, is a given.
    With our political system, backed up by our media, perverted by lobbyists, powered by the inattentive and disinterested voter who doesn’t have much time to spend understanding issues……

    I’m afraid I can’t see it improving anytime soon.

    I’ll have a schooner of Coopers, thanks Bernard.

  140. klewso

    Outside Left, unfortunately nobody “wins” when civility is “rendered” (ref. “abattoir by-products processing/handling”). But it’s been ingrained and sponsored, by a narrow-minded media.
    For too long the vast majority of our “viewsmedia” has been in the hands of too few with conservative bent. With little or no competition to the views they espoused, and through which they edited and strained news for our/voter intellectual digestion. To influence our perception of what was going on “politically”, in any number of fields including politics – through their refractive index – trying to influence that perception of “which party was most fit to govern” – on behalf of one party, the one they supported. Used their market share to legitimise the perception of one true dogma.
    Too much of the media now seems to all too willing to abnegate any responsibility (of the sort it demands from others) for the role they have played, themselves, in the degeneration of “the system” they had such a intrinsic role in engendering through their active sponsorship and their partisan role in the process – in wanting to blame politicians for all of it.
    And who’s going to challenge that “Pilate defence” of theirs – “the media”?
    But to vacate the field to those who’s “reality” has dominated our politics for so long (before such forums as this came along, and people of like mind, whose views were limited in general exhibition – through that control of the medium – could get together and compare ideas. We do exist!) condemns the system to that previous partisan status quo.
    These “weapons” have been chosen long ago – and return of fire is getting uncomfortable for those so long used to having it all their own preconceived unchallenged way.

  141. MaxJim

    There is absolutely no point in the good thinkers on here debating people like SB. The debates rise and are just starting to hit pay dirt when, but do I have to use a pencil please drops it off again. They do not add intellectual weight to build volume and therefore pressure in the public domain to bear down upon the politicians, which ultimately impacts on the type of policies created and the type of leader that is appointed. They are led, they need to be led, because of an inability to actually assess a situation and apply logic to reach an outcome. That is unfortunately what Tony Abbott has contributed by his three word slogans. He however has the ability to debate but not the substance to win.

  142. Suzanne Blake

    @ karldoh

    No did not mean elective, any surgery that could be delayed today cause its not life threatening today

  143. karldoh

    SUZANNE BLAKE hopes that if I do need a hospital it is for life saving surgery as otherwise I may die waiting. Apparently this is because I don’t have private health insurance.

    1. I think you mean elective surgery

    2. Private hospitals will gladly take my cash.

    3. I hope if you need a hospital the nurses.

    4. You won’t defend the private health industry, as I predicted. You just throw your waste at passers by.

    5. Please call me a communist, I need a laugh.

  144. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    Are you saying abbott is LYING,his current policy is to turn back all boats no matter what,why would he need nauru offshore policy which he will not vote for,so YOU or Abbott Or the MURDOOCH MEDIA are LYING.
    MY UNDERSTANDING IS ABBOTTS POLICY IS TO TURN ALL BOATS BACK WITHOUT EXCEPTION,is that a lie or are you just delusional?

  145. GeeWizz

    [“Your mind is in the past ,as is abbott and morrison with fraudulent figures,nauru is YESTERDAYS SOLUTION”]

    Wrong,

    Nauru is the future. Once the Coalition is elected back into power they will reintroduce the Pacific Solution, and I can bet my bottom dollar Labor will never-ever touch it ever again after all the pain they recieved the last time.

    Nauru is going to be back in action shortly, it’s just a matter of when and how many more bodies Labor will allow to wash up on our shores.

  146. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    Your mind is in the past ,as is abbott and morrison with fraudulent figures,nauru is YESTERDAYS SOLUTION,the high court has ruled even without the high court nauru does not stop the boats.
    Why are you promoting nauru anyway as abbott is going to turn all boats back and to to hell who may drown because of such a decision,which is why morrison talks about nauru and abbott says nothing and bishop says SFA about indonesia,
    Fraudulent liberal policy to get get the vote of redneck rascists

  147. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    Your mind is in the past ,as is abbott and morrison with fraudulent figures,nauru is YESTERDAYS SOLUTION,the high court has ruled even without the high court nauru does not stop the boats.
    Why are you promoting nauru anyway as abbott is going to turn all boats back and to to hell who may drown because of such a decision,which is why morrison talks about nauru and abbott says nothing and bishop says SFA about indonesia,
    Fraudulent liberal policy to get get the vote of redneck rascists

  148. GeeWizz

    [“GEEWIZZ ,
    Think your using a catering firm bodgie figures,what a pathetic fraudulent joke.,or deceit.”]

    Forget the catering firm and whatever is claimed is the cost of re-opening Nauru… why is the Federal Government now spending $1 Billion Dollars more on border protection then in 2007?

    The reality is that Howard closed detention centres all over the country. He could do that because he stopped the boats. Labor has been opening a new detention centre at the rate of about 1 every 6 months they have been in power and have packed them to the rafters.

    There are more children behind the razor wire under Labor than they were under Howards Pacific Solution. Undeniable fact. There are more women behind the razor wire under Labor than there were under Howards Pacific Solution, undeniable fact. There have been more suicides under Labor than there were under Howards Pacific Solution, undeniable fact. There have been more boat drownings under Labor than there were under Howards Pacific Solution, undeniable fact.

    It seems the left can’t win a trick with this one, it’s time to fess up… you screwed up, the numbers confirm it. Even leftwing spokesman Robert Manne admits Howard got it right. It’s time to swallow your pride, pick up the phone to the President of Nauru and put this sorry mess behind us.

  149. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    If your trying to write a movie script it is already boring.

  150. GeeWizz

    Uno what I really love about the lefties.

    They say the boaties burn down our detention centres, attack our guards and riot because they are “locked up for a few months” in “horrible conditions” including air conditioned rooms, 3 square meals a day, only have access to internet and free telephones, pay TV, ipods, cigarrettes(paid for by the government and taxpayer) and a roof over their heads.

    Yet I wonder… have the lefties ever seen a real refugee camp? Uno the ones you pretend don’t exist and that the people in them aren’t waiting for resettlement? You remember those people don’t you? How are their 3 square meals a day going? Are their plastic tents on the dirt ground air conditioned? Whats the Pay TV reception like? Is the broadband internet access very quick from their humpee?

    These people spend DECADES in these camps, and yet these whingers have the cheek to come here and riot and demand insta-visa’s after a few months in comparitive luxury and then the left wonder why most Australians think they are frauds, fakes and economic migrants. Take the blinkers off lefties and go see what a real refugee camp is…

  151. Schnappi

    GEEWIZZ ,
    Think your using a catering firm bodgie figures,what a pathetic fraudulent joke.,or deceit.

  152. Schnappi

    Sun in UK just suffered 5 more arrests,not from the murdoch sunday flagship that closed down,but huge murdoch paper which was untouched till now,think abbott better be careful about who is endorsing him.

  153. GeeWizz

    [“Like to see abbott,morrison,and bishop to come in here and explain their nauru policy,their costings are a fraud”]

    The Pacific Solution is $1 Billion Dollars per year cheaper than Gillards open borders solution.

    We see that in the budget numbers and how much Labor is now spending on border protection.

    It used to be around $300Mil a year under the Coalition, under Labor it is around $1.3 BILLION per year.

    If we stop the boats, we stop the costs. If we stop the boats, we stop the deaths.

  154. Patriot

    LMAO.

    jimreiher . c o m

    “Jim has been a candidate for the Greens in a few elections. He ran for the federal seat of Holt in 2004; was the lead candidate for the state upper house region of South East Metro, in 2006; and was on the Victorian Senate ticket in 2007. He has worked on various Greens policy development groups and has helped with the Vic Greens Drugs policy, and Multiculturalism Policy.”

  155. Peter Ormonde

    I’ll be looking forward to getting that reference Patriot.

    Good to see you and Suzanne seem to hold the High Court in complete disregard if not contempt… “illegals” indeed. Oh yes and the UN Convention.

    Obviously know a huge amount on this topic Mr Patriot…. your statement above regarding the effect of irregular boast arrivals and the impact of people on visas applying for refugee status in Australia is absolutely wrong. The process you describe is wrong. The terminology you use to describe it is wrong. The impact of onshore processing of refugee applications on the “offshore queue” is wrong.

    Pure gibberish and make believe Mr Patriot. This is why scoundrels find patriotism so easy to fake. A mug’s game that.

  156. Patriot

    Jim Reiher,

    “for the most part, they are fitting in well and dont cause any problems.”

    Sorry I missed that. Unemployment and welfare dependence is staggering amongst illegals. I believe around 90% and %95 for Afghans from memory. I will try to find the Immigration report with the figures. It was hidden very well at their web site last time I looked.

  157. Schnappi

    Like to see abbott,morrison,and bishop to come in here and explain their nauru policy,their costings are a fraud,which means their policy on nauru is a fraud, and will not work,because they think the past is good as the present, they make solutions based on fraudulent figures.

  158. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    They would know were the boat came from, 99.9% of the time its from Indonesia. So send then back, make it their problem and they they will start to stop them at the airports.

    At the moment the Indonesians know it is a sensitive issues here and the milk Gillard and boy Bowen for money. Worked with Malaysia.

    How where is that $300 million or was it $800 million given to Malaysia for the Malaysian solution? Hope boy Bowen is getting interest on our money.

  159. Patriot

    Jim Reiher,

    You seem to know all the relevant numbers and facts about our humanitarian program. It’s surprising that you can’t put them all together and work out exactly what is wrong with accepting illegals.

    The issues of legal immigration, visa overstayers and population are separate to that of humanitarian intake, and not of much relevance at all. As a country we have decided that we should operate a humanitarian program for the purpose of resettling refugees here.

    The problem with illegals is that they are processed through a parallel queue to that through which other asylum claims are processed, with both competing for the same fixed number of positions,but with illegals receiving preferential treatment of their claims.

    The queue for illegals is open only to those who can spend tens of thousands of dollars on travel and forged documents, including death threats and such, as reported in the recent Guardian article “Boom time for Afghanistan’s people smugglers”. Unlike those who arrive by air with identification, the legitimacy of claims can’t be evaluated.

    Worse, there is political pressure to accept their claims due to the expense of detention and the difficulty of forcibly repatriating them. There is disparity in the rate of acceptance between illegals and all other applicants that varies over time and relates to the difficulty of rejecting and repatriating illegitimate claimants.

    The end result is that illegals deny placement to other applicants by abusing a parallel assessment system only available to wealthy applicants that treats their claims more leniently not due to their merit, but due to the difficulty of rejecting illegitimate claims. Places set aside for refugees are being taken up by wealthy, country shopping, illegal immigrants who are in no danger. That’s why I say they have entirely perverted and corrupted our humanitarian program.

  160. AR

    JimR – like you, I normally refuse to engage ORAC’s idiocies.
    However, many (normal/sane) people are uncertain as to the mechanism when an air arrival claims asylum.
    The Customs officer (a seconded Immigration officer for the purposes of visa scrutiny), when confronted by a coached asylum seeker, who has already given their passport, containing a valid 676, to their handler on the flight) immediately suspends processing and calls a DIMIA officer. The asylum seeker then becomes subject to that agency’s legislation and ius usually released into the community because there are, in 90% of such cases, people waiting in the public area who are OZ citizens.
    It will be interesting if Sandman Logan (DIMIA’s dimmest shill/flack) tries to obfuscate this point.

  161. GeeWizz

    True Suzanne,

    But just the fact they lost/burnt/buried/rippedup/ate their passports makes it extremely difficult for the Australian government to send them anywhere as it’s kinda hard to ring up a country and say “hey we got a guy here called John Smith and he reckons he comes from your country and we got no proof he does, can you please take him back”? It’s a big diplomatic screw around.

    It would be good if we could “return to sender” meaning Indonesia… we give them enough money as it is, as someone here suggested the other day we cut back our foreign aid to them by $10 Million Dollars for every illegal boat that arrives in our waters until they get the message.

  162. Suzanne Blake

    @ GeeWizz

    They are told to loose them, cause it will cause a smoke screen and assist their chances.

    It is a joke. Anyone who has no papers should be returned automatically within a few days.

    That WILL send a message and change behaviour

  163. Schnappi

    @GEEWIZZ,
    As usual you picked a little bit ,which was all your mind could handle.

  164. GeeWizz

    [“Nauru is the past ,it is now only another christmas island”]

    I keep hearing that is just “another Christmas Island” which is interesting because it worked right up until the day Labor canned it. Only 4 illegals sitting in detention at time.

    Why doesn’t Dillard play Abbotts bluff and pick up the phone to the President of Nauru and if it doesn’t work she can say haha we told you so?

  165. GeeWizz

    A report in the Australian the other day reported that out of something like 3013 illegals arriving by boat, only 13 of them had a passport yet almost all of them flew into Indonesia.

    What happened to their passports between the short bus journey between the airport and the boat?

  166. GeeWizz

    [“Patriot – what do you think should happen to all the people who just turn up by PLANE, and who ask to be seen as refugees – there are about 8-9 times as many of them landing here every year, than all that come in boats.”]

    Plane is the normal route for coming to Australia.

    Even illegals flying into Indonesia before burning their ID’s and jumping on a boat come via plane, yet they never make the last leg via plane because that would require ID and their stories can be confirmed or denied.

    BTW, someone sitting in a U.N refugee camp with only the shirt on their back eating a cup of rice a day is what a real refugee looks like, how many days have these blow-ins on a boat spent in a real refugee camp? I’ll bet most of them not even a single f’ing day

  167. Suzanne Blake

    @ Jim Reiher

    They can only stay as per visa then they have to leave and await offshore.

  168. Schnappi

    Nauru is the past ,it is now only another christmas island,that abbott and morrison hired a catering company to do the liberal costings,a company under a cloud for bribery,shows they deliberately deceive the Australian people.

  169. Jim Reiher

    Oh my goodness! I just did what I recommended the rest of us dont do!!! Aggghhhhh!!!!! I engaged a silly comment of SB’s,…..

    shoot me now….

  170. Jim Reiher

    SB – you have completely ignored the facts. And the stats.

    9 times as many people ask to be refugees who come on planes than boats. And they get to live in the community while they are being considered. They are not sent back offshore.

  171. Suzanne Blake

    @ Jim

    The ones that arrive by plane, need some sort of visa or they get returned on same plane as the airlines cost. Those that say refugee to Immigration Agent are told them need to apply offshore and some are interviewed and returned. One that ask for it after they leave the airport (days later) aare rounded up if they overstay visa, if they can be found.

  172. Jim Reiher

    Patriot – what do you think should happen to all the people who just turn up by PLANE, and who ask to be seen as refugees – there are about 8-9 times as many of them landing here every year, than all that come in boats.

    Why dont people talk about plane arrivals??? You know, they get here on a visitors visa, or a student visa, or a workers visa, etc, and then once here say “if I go home they will persecute me – please let me be a refugee”. Most years there are 9 to 1 of them to boat arrivals.

    And they are allowed to live in the general community until their application is decided on.
    Whereas boat arrivals are locked up in detention centres.

    How come?

    Why the ridiculous emphasis on a few thousand people who come here a year by boats, when 8 to 9 times that many, come by plane?

    Why the double standard?

    So when you say “another 125 boat arrivals…” remember that between them and the last boat, about 1000 plane arrivals came – and they are living amongst us… and guess what?… for the most part, they are fitting in well and dont cause any problems.

    Another 125 – my god where can we put them? … Really Partriot, do you feel a bit overcrowded? Try visiting our Asian neighbours countries.

    Are you aware that we bring into Australia about 170,000 people every year (mostly as immigrants). About 14,000 of that number are places that go to refugees. And about half of that 14000 go to UN lists and camps around the world that we cherry pick from, while the other half go to people who just turn up and ask to be refugees (mostly plane arrivals).

    Are you aware of this stuff? Or just really frightened that a few thousand boat arrivals over a year, will ruin the fabric of the Australian culture of the 22 million of us?

  173. Schnappi

    The boats are still arriving because abbott and morrison are more intrested in lying to the Australian people,with getting a catering firm to do bodgie coats for nauru ,which is only another christmas island ,the past does not count,malaysia solution would stop the boats,abbott ,morrison and bishop have blood on their hands,

  174. Brian62

    “No matter what you believe it doesn’t change the facts.”
    ~Al Kersha~

  175. Patriot

    Another boat just arrived. 125 more country shopping welfare recipients, to the detriment of genuine refugees. Thank you, Rudd, Gizzard and Fleet Commander Chris Bowen for entirely perverting and corrupting our humanitarian program.

  176. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    I think he is making plugs this week at the re-education facility, ready for Tuesday 14th. Organic Hemp Wallets was the January productuon run

  177. Jim Reiher

    I guess this particular blog will continue over the rest of the weekend, till the next issue of Crikey comes out!

    Peter O – no criticisms at you. At least you defuse the tension of the silly bloggers, with humour that has a clever tinge of “getting a point through” as well!

    Geewiz – you are not as bloody minded and one-eyed as SB (I should probably not have lumped the two of you together so quickly) – though some of your comments come close…

    By the way, I do like to debate and hear the other side. I just expect it to be a serious consideration of issues, and not an ignoring of everything said by others that you dont happen to like hearing. That is SB’s big problem: she is quick to repeat mantras and throw away lines, but never really answers the better questions and comments of her critics.

  178. Patriot

    AR,

    “they are what is clinically called ‘aphasia’, surprisingly common in a certain type of person, the uptight, reality denying, uriah Heep kow-towing types”

    Real classy. Joking about a form of mental impairment. Bob Brown would have you sent to a re-education labour camp to make organic hemp wallets for a hate crime like that.

  179. Brian62

    No offense to those of intellectual honesty,you know who you are.

  180. AR

    Brian62 – you make a good point and I do worry about PO wasting his wit & wiles on the Borg – sharing a single brain – trolls.
    Trouble is, decisions are made by those when turn up and stay. And stay. And STAY beyond the limit of anyone with a life, hence the slimey, sleaze which we now have as MPs.
    What was the most recent analysis of MPs? Solicitors (sic! on street corners that is illegal), apparatchiks & commission agents.
    Once the BtR were landed grandees and Labor the horny handed sons of toil.
    Now both “sides” as simply the scum of the middle class wannabees.

  181. Peter Ormonde

    EEEKKK … SB is agreeing with me – what on earth did I say???

    Ah … yes… irony Sooz… sarcasm at worst.

    Just think – 20% of the world’s population … all sneaky. Makes you think doesn’t it?

    What should the Government do Sooz? Ban Chinese buying our stuff? Stop buying Chinese stuff? Starve them into submission?

    Are they breaking any laws? Why is it OK for yanks and poms to own our stuff but not these “sneaky communists”?

    I know – let’s all demand that Joe Hockey ban everything to do with China. He can do that as well as carrying out the dreams of all those hard-working aspirational types who want a tax cut, smaller government and less spending on other people.

    See Troofie reckons Tony Abbott’s his man because Abbott will shrink the state and give everyone tax cuts and really sink the slipper into boat people and refugees. As if. And you reckon Tony will turn back the Chinese “sneaky” hordes who want to buy our stuff. As if.

    What a ramshackle bunch these Conveyers of No Consequence are… Looneytoon economics and rabid paranoid racists … and Tony Abbott – the Great White Hope… he’ll make the trains run on time too. Fantasy land, with a fantasy hero and a confused and contradictory agenda… Quixote on acid.

    These guys are much much more right wing than Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey. The sad thing is they really think Tony and Joe will deliver for them. As if.

  182. Brian62

    that’s a bit of,off I meant,.

  183. Brian62

    @Peter Ormonde,as much as I would like to Discuss Hockeynomics Peter there is no point, it is much like Tennis Australia same old balls new racket,having contributed my 2 cents worth alas I must depart I find indulging the Lonely Farts Club depressing, intellectually neutering and of no visible value,I’m sure Comrade you indulge the overtly vocal vermin out of boredom, however I am not blessed with your powers of innocuous reasoning,that being said when traveling down that lonely road beware lest you get hammered of your cycle.seriously mate good on you.

  184. AR

    ORAC – I’ve tried to pass off your appalling spelling & grammar as merely typos. (to which many of us are subject, esp after a good dinner) but yours aren’t even clumsy, drunken fingers of QWERTY – they are what is clinically called ‘aphasia’, surprisingly common in a certain type of person, the uptight, reality denying, uriah Heep kow-towing types. See, de fing is, dey doan even have the wit to be aware of their own best interests. hence the many millions in US,UK & OZ who vote for the BtR types, those who would use them for road fill if possible, ie if they weren’t so weak & wish0washy gutless and worthless.

  185. Suzanne Blake

    @ Peter Ormonde

    you are right

    Successive Australia governments have FAILED to stop this. They are all to blame.

    The Chinese are sneaky. Look at Brockman Resources (BRM) a group of Chinese in the SAME office business bought just under the reportable 5%. They then grouped the shareholdings together and had around 55%. They are now trying to mop up.

    The holding company of the vehicle they use runs limo’s. I kid you not.

    ASIC were ASLEEP, investigated and could not prove the small 4.99% parcels from an address in the same office tower, was breaking our rules.

    Where is Swan on this. Brockman own huge Iron Ore Reserves.

  186. Schnappi

    @PETER ORMONDE<
    Ouch,I thought hockeynomics ,were recycled abbottbombs,and anything to be different to robbanyonenomics.

  187. Peter Ormonde

    What do I say? …

    Agents Howard and Costello did an excellent job undermining Western Civilisation and opening the doors. Agents Brown and Gillard and now undermining the Australian economy with their gay marriage, pokies reforms and of course the crippling Carbon tax. And – should they fail to completely obliterate all local resistance and entrepreneurialism, there is always our secret weapon…. our WMDs … comrades Abbott and Barnaby Joyce who are guaranteed to absolutely level the place. Our IEDs on the road to Orstrayan oblivion.

    Seriously, how dare those Chinese buy our stuff? How dare they lend the yanks all that money? How dare they work so hard? They will own the world. And we will sell it to them. Ask your mate Patriot. Dig it up and flog it now -he reckons.

    50 years of communism and they are sweeping the floor with all these sluggish lazy feather-bedded capitalists. Making it look easy. No wonder you’re frightened Sooz. It’s the end of the world. Learn Chinese now. Learn to use chopsticks.

    ” The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.”
    … Vladimir Ilyich Lenin.

    But we’re just making a quid, aren’t we?

    PS Jim and Dave: I don’t mean to be hijacking anything or distracting a serious discussion of the issues in the piece … just can’t see much evidence of one. If anyone sensible wants to wade in and discuss Hockeynomics more seriously please do. PLEASE.

  188. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geomac

    “By ignoring the posts of various aliases but usually by just the one person I get through the page a lot quicker and have missed nothing of relevance . ”

    Typical communist like Ormonde. Not use to getting differing views, expect the State view to be the only view and the correct view.

    Maybe the lefties here should setup their own website. Soggy Weetbix Weekly would be a good name.

  189. geomac

    JIM REIHER
    By ignoring the posts of various aliases but usually by just the one person I get through the page a lot quicker and have missed nothing of relevance . Sometimes I get sucked in but soon revert back to ignoring because its all just falsehoods and bile repeated over and over . Bernardi’s boofheads and Mirabella’s misanthropes all .

  190. Suzanne Blake

    @ GeeWizz

    Well said

    ‘ “The Russians and Chinese are our friends now.”

    I wouldn’t say that, look how they voted on the U.N resolution regarding protecting Syrians who are getting slaughtered. Cowards.”

    How do you answer this Marilyn?

    The Chinese are invading us by stealth.

    They are buying our mines, buying our farms (in small parcels) and joining them together, they are killing off our manufacturing with cheap imports and at the end, whenever that is, they will own us.

    They already “own” the USA – with th debt owned to China

    what do you say to that Marilyn and Peter Ormonde?

  191. Brian62

    @Suzanne Blake,”Thats a shame, what does your mother call you?” poor Suzanne I suspect until she was 12 she thought her name was “piss off” makes you wonder why she persists with similar behaviour into adulthood doesn’t it.

  192. Peter Ormonde

    Jim,

    Haven’t wandered too far off topic. Bit of a wallow in nostalgia but down deep these guys are sprouting Hockeynomics … smaller government, tax cuts, AND middle class welfare … we can have the lot. Magic Pudding economics.

    All wrapped up in a parcel of “living within our means”, cutting waste and the slashing size of government. What utter tosh!

    So I’ve been drawing out their hate lists – what bits of government should be shrunk. Parental leave and Health Rebates are apparently sacrosanct … so it’s lazy, sick, old, blacks and reffo’s … and the unemployed of course who have had it too good for too long! The middle class have paid enough! Time to make the poor pay!

    A strange bunch. And economic lunacy… obsolete and absurd. But one would expect Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott to know better. To know this is twaddle. And of course they do. Cynical isn’t it?

  193. davidk

    @ Jim
    I second that

  194. GeeWizz

    [“Being ignored is worse than criticism, for many a blogger…”]

    To Ignore is to be Ignorant.

    I don’t ignore any posters, no matter how far off the fruit-loop scale they are(Marilyn Sherpard anyone?). But you are right, some people do like to hear their own voices(and their own thoughts) and I’d say you are definately one of them as you can’t accept any views differing from your own.

    Personally I think if everyone thought exactly like me it would be a very boring blog, I could just type my thoughts for the day and then just read them back to myself.

  195. Jim Reiher

    You know, when the conversation gets highjacked by really quite simple minded people, we ought to immediately ignore their contribution, and continue to discuss the real issues.
    It just encourages them to keep on ranting and raving on ….

    We should all determine to utterly ignore the likes of SB and Geewiz… they really have distracted the discussion and they clearly like to hear their own “voices” in print. Just dont engage them. No matter what they say.

    Being ignored is worse than criticism, for many a blogger…

  196. Peter Ormonde

    No no no Mr Wizz… you are far far too sensitive for words. A lot of people who feel your way – who say cruel and hateful things to people they don’t know, reffo’s and blackfellas and the like – are very sensitive when it comes to themselves. No need.

    I’m not denigrating your achievements at all. I’m just not sure I believe them. In fact Troofie, I’m sure I don’t. I don’t believe a word you say actually. Do you?

    But still if you are in fact telling the truth and can sort yourself out with $100K a year, sit on the interweb all day and night and wiff no spelling or fancy book-lernin’ – good luck to youse then. Proof positive that books ‘n skools ‘n stuff just ain’t necessssry. So when youse do evencherly has kids youse’ll be able to tell ’em thet they won’t need to go to skool or nuffink.

    Thet is if’n youse and Tony Abbott hasn’t shutted ’em all down by then.

  197. GeeWizz

    [“The Russians and Chinese are our friends now.”]

    I wouldn’t say that, look how they voted on the U.N resolution regarding protecting Syrians who are getting slaughtered. Cowards.

  198. shepherdmarilyn

    SB, you are truly pathetic. The cold war is long over dear. The Russians and Chinese are our friends now.

  199. GeeWizz

    [“Now this $100K you pull every year … this’d be the results of your futures and share trading empire yes? Or is it the computer repair business in the garage? There have been so many careers over recent months I can’t keep up.”]

    I once heard of another bloke who sold his bicycle and combivan and started his own computer business in his garage, didn’t do too badly from what I heard.

    What was his name again? Oh yes thats right, Steve Jobs… he had a little business called “Apple Computer Company” with himself and Steve Wozniac making computer boards, don’t know if you have heard of it before?

    Unlike you I don’t attack people for working hard and trying to get ahead in life, I know under the communist utopia we could all be just designated jobs and work the same job in and out for the same pay until the end of our days.

    Thankfully in this country we are able to choose what path we take in life and thats the greatest gift of all. There are others that just sit in the corner p1ssing and moaning how life passed them by and they did nothing with their life while people around them suceeded. I can understand with that why it’s important for people such as yourself to try and cut down success of others.

  200. Peter Ormonde

    She calls me comrade of course Sooz. But she doesn’t mean it. Not really. Not since I sent her to Lightning Ridge for re-education in the opal mines a few years back.

  201. Suzanne Blake

    @ Peter Ormonde

    “Anyway it’s been a long time since anyone called me comrade and meant it.”

    Thats a shame, what does your mother call you?

    I am sure Senator Lee Rhiannon would call you that if you asked.

  202. Peter Ormonde

    Jings Schnapps… So you reckon I’m preferable to Peter Reith. Thanks a heap. Oh well, could be worse I suppose. I could just be preferable to Barnaby Joyce. Or not.

    Anyway it’s been a long time since anyone called me comrade and meant it. Good people for the most part. Rather selfless. Beyond the ken of Troofies and Soozes.

  203. Schnappi

    Thought comrade peter was going to refer to peter reith,oh well will call reith a big liberal scoundrel who did not get charged or expelled,but now gets more of tax payers loot,think I prefer comrades to him.

  204. MaxJim

    The most vocal supporters of Abbott and the current liberal party wannabe but are not middle class. The true liberal voters are hoping he will be moved on quickly. The aspiring middle class liberals living on working class wages are numb on the economy and in some cases politics entirely, as the exchanges from certain people show.

    Middle class should be defined by financial status, that is not simply income but wealth not assessed by possesion of ideals or property paid with debts and handouts funded by the people that live in the real world about their situation and claim to be working class. In a survey recently by supermarket.com the difference between the majority who claimed to be middle class had only 10,000 difference income to working class.

    When the middle class handouts are clawed back, the true middle class will simply cut back an hour of their gardener maybe or perhaps bank a little less. The aspiring middle class cry foul for of course they know it will show as debts can’t be met. But the most revealing of the aspiring middle class is their complete inability to understand the economy in any way shape or form and to feel proud to be able to parrot stupid slogans from the liberal leader. Slogans that they embarassingly actually seem to believe.

    I feel sorry that they don’t know they are being done over. Abbott I dare say that has the genuine savvy middle class and ultra wealthy cringing daily. They of course will wait for him to be replaced and watch the antics with amusement but I doubt he is spoken of with pride by any. It is embarrassing to hear the slogans repeated as it tells far too much information about the person. Raving about their economic knowledge and about the liberals who under this leadership have no economic credibility or direction, reminds me of hyacinth bucket with a ski rack on the roof of the car. The ski rack is fine right up until someone asks you to ski and many smart people on here have given that invite to them. Tony Abbott however has not given a suitable three word slogan to answer with yet. They can add it to their little book of Abbott quotes.

  205. Peter Ormonde

    Tsarina Blake,

    Health Insurance? Strewth! Wouldn’t be caught dead in it.

    I get my health insurance by digging post-holes and eating good food. It’s called self care … being responsible for looking after yourself.

    Insurance actually shoves the responsibility for illness or anything else like a car crash onto someone else – it’s a form of lottery with a subsidy from the healthy to the diseased, from the safe to the dangerous… an inherently socialist notion all that cross-subsidisation. I’m appalled you’d have anything to do with it. Handouts from the healthy. Why should I pay for you frailies?

    Health insurance can’t even organise itself to run at a profit without masssive handouts and subsidies from the Government – socialist from one end to the other the whole business. And you betcha that’s all gotta go hasn’t it, Sooz? … let’s shrink that state.

  206. Suzanne Blake

    @ Comrade Peter Ormonde

    You have missed your true calling in life. You should be an author, comedian etc. the ABC with your resume would hire you without interview and without a tax file number.

    You will be on the Drum within days, and 4 Corners and on the Q&A panel.

    Seriously Comrade, you could clean up and you too will loose the health rebate!!!

  207. Peter Ormonde

    And you have done this despite not learnin’ nuffink at skool and wot wif bein’ oppressed and ground down by the high-taxing, nanny state, unionised, socialist morass that has engulfed the land well since … heck, forever. Trooly amayzing Troofie. Respect. And all your own work, too.

    Now this $100K you pull every year … this’d be the results of your futures and share trading empire yes? Or is it the computer repair business in the garage? There have been so many careers over recent months I can’t keep up.

    And yet … here you are Troofie, here you are. Again. And elsewhere on the sprawling interweb too. Must have a coal mine…. $100K for 20 mins a day? Too good. And not having to able to spell of nuffink? Fantastic.

    Just shows ya we really don’t need skoolin’ at all isn’t it? Put them on the list.

  208. Suzanne Blake

    @ GeeWizz

    “as I currently make over $100K a year self employed”

    Thats a shame Geewizz, you will be amoung the 5% of people on Crik ey who lose the Health Rebate.

    As you will have noticed, no complaints on this Board – telling isn’t it

  209. GeeWizz

    [“Did your teachers get paid anyfink? Apparantly not. Yet, yet you have risen to … well, this. Heck!”]

    My teachers couldn’t have done too badly(though to be honest I didn’t really learn anything from them, more self taught), as I currently make over $100K a year self employed

  210. Peter Ormonde

    Commissar Troofie,

    Did your teachers get paid anyfink? Apparantly not. Yet, yet you have risen to … well, this. Heck!

    Mois? Never been a teacher… not never … More research, less guesswork.

    As to the iron heel of union – sorry, Union – rule, I think you’d know as much about unions and workplaces as you’d knows about thet skoolin’ tovarich.

  211. GeeWizz

    Comrade Ormonde,

    Was your teaching poisition unionised back in the 70’s?

    Did you throw eggs and call the other teachers “scabs” if they got a payrise for being effective teachers?

    It’s important the union keeps everyone down on the same level to make sure no one ever thinks about getting ahead in life and achieving any better than “satisifactory” otherwise they might realise they don’t actually need the union and it’s a crock.

    There are actually people out there who would like to perform above the very low Union levels and get paid for it, but unfortunately the union doesn’t want this to happen

  212. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    I did not see 4 Corners.

    The Unions are not interested in productivity / outcomes, just to halt the decline in members, so the Union leaders will have a slush fund for “entertainment”, ALP election ads and the like.

  213. Peter Ormonde

    “Apparantly ????”

    Strewth Troofie, what on earth would you know about school?

  214. GeeWizz

    [“Principals who can hire and fire on performance will see better teachers, better students and better outcomes.

    I have seen some woeful teachers in my time, that don’t care and happy to work out their career, knowing they can’t be sacked easily.”]

    Yes the Four Corners program covered this, apparantly the Unions aren’t happy about this.

    Especially the ability of Principals to set wages and give pay increases to effective teachers…. the Unions want everyone to be on the standardardised union wage no matter how hard they work.

  215. Suzanne Blake

    Found one members of the ALP spin room or closely aligned.

    @david
    Posted Friday, 10 February 2012 at 2:53 pm | Permalink
    crikey.com.au/2012/02/10/tips-and-rumours-634/

    “Have forwarded the Mystery anti-tax letterbox drop article to Premier Bligh, for further action”

  216. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    agree 100% its all about the teachers. Principals who can hire and fire on performance will see better teachers, better students and better outcomes.

    I have seen some woeful teachers in my time, that don’t care and happy to work out their career, knowing they can’t be sacked easily.

    I have also seen some brilliant teachers, and the students thrive.

  217. GeeWizz

    [“The last figures I saw around 37% of children in Australia don’t to to State Schools. They go so some form of independant, church, non government school.”]

    I actually don’t buy the line that going to a private school means a student will be successful.

    First off there are some really useless private schools out there and some of them are packed full of troubled students whom the parents have sent there as a last resort.

    Secondly some public schools can be very good and allow development of free thinking a lot more than some private schools who try and turn students into mindless robots. The richest and most successful people in the world became so, not because they followed a text book, but because they followed their heart and their own ideas.

    Thirdly there is a belief out there that if you send a student to a really really good school, then that student will by nature become more intelligent and learn more. The sad reality is that some people by biological consequence and of no fault of their own are less intelligent than others. With the right training and education anyone can learn anything, but that doesn’t mean intelligent decisions when confronted by a complete set of different circumstances.

    And finally in regards to funding, I have seen no evidence that Private Schools… based on TOTAL TAXPAYER EXPENDITURE cost more than a public school. That means there is a net saving for the taxpayer by parents sending their children to a private school.

    Personally when I have kids I will be sending them to a public school because I have experienced both systems. I found the quality of the school has a lot to do with the management, and watching the recent Four Corners special on empowered principals confirmed my views. We need Union Power out of schools, Principal power in… and the State Governments simply working as intermediates, not dictators.

  218. Patriot

    “…the limits to quarrying this place into some big version of Nauru.

    That’s too vague for an oracle. What are you saying? The choice before us is to either mine the stuff or leave it in the ground. Do you think we should leave it in the ground for future generations and hope there’s still demand when they want to sell it. Gillard and Brown would have us believe the world is doing away with coal. Do you want a tax regime that drives investment and employment away from here? Remember that we aren’t the only country with iron and coal to dig up and sell. Do you want a nationalised industry?

  219. Suzanne Blake

    @ Peter Ormonde

    I don’t care how he spells his name. His is finished. They won’t pre-select him regardless.

    He is MIA in the area. They will parachute another Union hack in no doubt or beg someone from the branchs here to stand, knowing they will be flogged.

  220. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    “I have a comment awaiting moderation with a link to a Sydney morning Herald article from 1983 on The Communist Party of Australia’s Tribune newspaper, to which Comrade Ormonde contributed a number of articles over the years. Apparently they used an East German Printing press and had trouble getting parts when the paper was banned by the Soviet bloc. Today the far left are demanding the same kind of oppressive state regulation of the media here, while Peter says his recollections of those times is faltering. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it!”

    I am just waiting for a whole bunch more to be outed from the ALP or Gillards Spin Office. That would be funny

    I can hear her now ” This did this without my permission, I have no idea, they made an error in judgement and they have paid a high price for it….”

    You know its the Hawker Brittain excuse # 207 on their list of spin excuses.

  221. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    “Author: GeeWizz
    Comment:
    Heres the last good Labor Leader in action:
    www .youtube.com/watch?v=o5mBShX9fdU&feature=g-vrec&context=G2f840adRVAAAAAAAAAQ”

    Yes, now he lives on Sydney Harbour waterfront (Middle Harbour to be precise), in a 3 – 4 story mansion with putt putt hole on the flat roof and a jetty on the water. His mate Joe Hockey is his local member!!!!

    Cheers lefties, burp.

  222. Peter Ormonde

    Ah masked Patriot (of the purportedly non-scoundrelly kind)

    1983 … long gone by then I think… I remember they used to use manual typewriters and everything went through to one woman operating a photosetter. Not a PC or laptop or mobile phone in sight. Still love the smell of copy paper and fresh newsprint though.

    The paper was printed at Ross Street in Forest Lodge on a pretty basic, (very) second-hand, four-stage offset press that was owned by a bloke called George, a Greek fella as I recall. Don’t think it was an East German press though. I would remember that because I used to do a lot of printing and ended up working for the PKIU for a bit (that’s the old Printers’ Union).

    Hope this helps fill out your excellent research. It’s certainly taking me back. Happy days, comrades.

    Wonder why the Russians banned it? Did they ban it? Like I said I was gone by then. I guess they didn’t like what I and others were saying. Funny that.

    A lot of it was about ecology, the costs of industrialisation and the limits to quarrying this place into some big version of Nauru. Talk about an oracle!

  223. GeeWizz

    Heres the last good Labor Leader in action:
    www .youtube.com/watch?v=o5mBShX9fdU&feature=g-vrec&context=G2f840adRVAAAAAAAAAQ

  224. Patriot

    @Suzanne Blake

    I have a comment awaiting moderation with a link to a Sydney morning Herald article from 1983 on The Communist Party of Australia’s Tribune newspaper, to which Comrade Ormonde contributed a number of articles over the years. Apparently they used an East German Printing press and had trouble getting parts when the paper was banned by the Soviet bloc. Today the far left are demanding the same kind of oppressive state regulation of the media here, while Peter says his recollections of those times is faltering. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it!

    @Peter

    “I think you should out yourself – name… a real one … one my solicitors can track down. Get the picture?”

    You didn’t shut me up but. We’ll agree on that part.

  225. Peter Ormonde

    Aw Sooz,

    “I am sorry to disappoint everyone, but I am from a ultra marginal seat and I am working as hard as I can to ensure the people in my seat are eyes wide open on
    ly ing Gillard and incompetent Swan. I have to say, its rare to meet anyone here that disagrees and when you do they too are embarrased with Gillard, Swan and Thomson.”

    Excellent Sooz… you’ve finally worked out that you local member – the one who’s guilt is already completely established in your mind – the one who you are working so hard to unseat … is actually Craig Thomson… not Thompson. Finally. Only took half a dozen posts.

    Sooz, I suspect mate that given your views and your vehemence … you would not be meeting many people at all … they’d be running in the other direction, crossing the road or suddenly remembering they have to be somewhere else. Everyone is so busy these days. Always running off somewhere…. makes one wonder don’t it?

    Now “Patriot”…

    I didn’t shut you up with legal threats …. I can’t sue someone who libels people anonymously. I was just pointing out that a nom de plume is a ratherly cowardly way to conduct oneself in public. Particularly of one hides behind it to say nasty things. Sorry to undermine your “victim status” but feel free to be as cowardly and gutless as you like.

    Tops Troofie … excellent effort … but too small by half … I’ll do some sums later on and let you know how much more is needed to cut say 10 bills off the budget. … enough for your tax cuts. I’ll also post these suggestions in to Tony Abbott and see what his response is. You reckon he will actually do this? This is why you support Tony Abbott?

  226. guytaur

    @ Geewizz. Your comprehension skills fail you. I was referring to your first post.

    It is unthinking pots like that that can lead to real tragedy. Saying something after the fact to cover your A..
    does nothing to hide your real feelings and colours.

  227. GeeWizz

    [“Yes you said exactlY that. You. Had no excepts.”[

    Quote me thanks.

    I have never said people with genuine disabilities should be forced to work.

    There are many people out there who could work and choose not to… a lot of them in organisations such as Socialist Alliance who think it is their god-given right to get welfare, we saw them in the Occupy Sydney and Melbourne protests while the real 99% were WORKING.

  228. guytaur

    @ Geewizz

    Yes you said exactlY that. You. Had no excepts.
    Oops hoist on your own petard.

  229. Patriot

    Peter,

    “There you go again … parroting old Ronald Reagan one liners … are you stuck back there or something?

    If I had time to waste, I’d go back and count how many times I’ve used the phrase “there you go again”(my guess is 3) and how many times you’ve quoted (and ranted about) Samuel Johnson on patriotism. Who do you think would be more of a parrot stuck in the past?

  230. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    Comrade Peter Omonde does he own posts, you can tell by his Communist humour, they dont have TV’s and DVD over there, so he needs to amuse himself with poetry, humour and self importance.

    Marilyn does her own posts and is an active activist from the winefields of SA.

    Jimmy, Geocom, GoComSys and other could all be from the ALP spin office. Jimmy says he is from a safe LNP seat in Victoria and is sick of being around sane people.

    I am sorry to disappoint everyone, but I am from a ultra marginal seat and I am working as hard as I can to ensure the people in my seat are eyes wide open on
    ly ing Gillard and incompetent Swan. I have to say, its rare to meet anyone here that disagrees and when you do they too are embarrased with Gillard, Swan and Thomson.

  231. Suzanne Blake

    @ Patriot

    I think Peter Ormonde and myself could be the same or similar ages, given his 1978 Communist Party of Australia quotes (anyway within a few years).

    I recall a young man behind the East German stand outside the library at the UNSW handing out brochures with an old man. The older one was a very communist looking chap, he was in old clothing, looks like he could have been on parole from the Gulag’s. The younger one, wet behind the ears, following his master, handing out brochures as well. Being young and naive myself, I took some brochures one day (probably was photographed by ASIO!!) and it was pictures of factories, people working, not smiling. I don’t know who did their marketing, but they have no idea. I seem to recall the stand was not there more than a few years.

  232. GeeWizz

    [“You don’t like these cash splashes as you call them .

    Who should get cut off?

    What sorts of payments would you abolish?

    What do you think Tony should do? “]

    Dump the whole lot and give everyone a great big tax cut would be my answer.

    Of course people with children will generally have more requirement for money than a single so perhaps extra tax rebates up to say 3 children.

    There is way too much fluff in the tax system as it is, a simplification and a nice big juicy tax cut would hit the spot thanks then people can decide how to spend their own money.

    And while we are doing that, forced employment/education of anyone on welfare payments. Why is it that in say for example… remote Aboriginal communities there is rubbish all over the ground and the place looks like a complete dump, yet 90%+ of the population are on unemployment benefits? These towns should be the cleanest towns in the country with such available work-for-the-dole employees available and will help keep them off the grog if they actually have something to do during the day. But of course the lefties would have a cardiac if we ever tried to force people to better themselves… even when paying the bills.

  233. Patriot

    Comrade Ormonde,

    “Interesting how You, Troofie and Suzanne all turn up at once”

    We don’t. Have a look at the times of our posts. I could say the same about Venise, AR and yourself, but I won’t because I’m not that childish and you might threaten to sue me again.

    …making the same errors of fact

    What errors of fact have I made? Don’t worry if you can’t give me an example though. I don’t share your belief in shutting people up with legal threats.

    “Give us your “hit-list” on middle class welfare:

    I wouldn’t be looking at middle-class welfare as the first place to make savings. I’d look first at repealing Labors policy on boat people which has increased our spending on illegals by over a billion dollars without placing any more refugees here, slashing the number of public servants – as Rudd promised to while in opposition – and scrapping the NBN, which is socialised Rolls-Royce internet access.

    Now you should answer some question for me. How do you justify having our taxes spent by the government on over-paid paper shufflers who are sitting idle? Or on socialised high speed internet access? Or on a humanitarian program that gives preferential treatment to wealthy illegal immigrants?

  234. Brian62

    Geewizz ” interest rates are now rising under a Gillard Labor govenment.

    2 Banks so far, more to go” ,this rubbish is just childish and churlish crap obviously your a product of the shallow end of the gene pool Neinstein, trying to pretend you’ve scored a political point on the back of banks extorting money from the general public is somehow the Governments fault,hence forward you should be known as Geewiz SFB,here’s a hint the last two words are For Brains .

  235. Suzanne Blake

    @ Peter Ormonde

    Middle Class Welfare hit list? I am not against helping people, but I am against bone laziness and people who demand welfare every day and dont try and help themselves.

  236. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    No need to fail to understand. People like @ negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com who suck the welfare system for every cent and whinge and attend GetUp or Occupy Rallies will not change. They can’t get a job that pays them enough so they stop whinging.

    I can recall when i was at Uni, people my age were bragging about getting the dole and saying why work, I can get this for free and have fun. There were 6 in a house, living very comfortably.

  237. GeeWizz

    [“What Troofie/Wizz/Suzanne/Patriot fails to understand is that the pretty much everyone is on some sort of handout from the government”]

    I’m not failing to understand that, I’m failing to understand how people on welfare benefits can be sitting here complaining about others getting “middle class welfare” when they don’t pay a cent in income tax and get their entire incomes paid for by the little Aussie Taxpayer.

    Thats what I am failing to understand.

  238. GeeWizz

    [“I see you think no one with a true disability who cannot work through no fault of their own should get Government support.”]

    I never said that, you said that.

    I think some people who are on welfare are envious of the middle and upper classes. To them they think government handouts are their god-given right and that if you attack the middle and upper tax payers then you will get something out of it yourselves.

    Of course it doesn’t work like that. Middle and Upper income earners are paying the bills, you guys are living off the backs of our hard work. There is no such thing as welfare for middle and upper income earners as we pay over and above anything we recieve back in taxes… something low and welfare recipients will never have to pay.

  239. Peter Ormonde

    There you go again … parroting old Ronald Reagan one liners … are you stuck back there or something? East German Printing press? Sorry you’ve lost me… like I said one’s memory of such momentous matters falters after 30+ years.

    Now to matters of the self: Interesting how You, Troofie and Suzanne all turn up at once … all making the same noises, venting the same steam, making the same errors of fact and grammar, failing to answer the same questions.

    Have a crack at answering the questions above. Give us your “hit-list” on middle class welfare. Then we’ll see whether you’re an individual or not. Neither of them can do it … can’t even make a start. Hopeless.

  240. Peter Ormonde

    So Ms Blake … you have been watching me lounging about in my Kim Jong-Il boilersuit wallowing in the State’s largesse here at the Proletarian Ponderosa. God how we laugh.

    Back to the issue de jour …

    You don’t like these cash splashes as you call them .

    Who should get cut off?

    What sorts of payments would you abolish?

    What do you think Tony should do?

    Or is it just another chance for you to let off a bit of bile? What is to be done?

  241. Patriot

    Peter,

    “What Troofie/Wizz/Suzanne/Patriot fails to understand is…” blah, blah blah.

    There you go again. To create your straw man by pretending we’re either all the same person or all have exactly the same views is, yet again, intellectually dishonest. You even have two bob each way:

    “I am starting to have a vision of Troofie sitting down with three screens all logged on at once chatting to himself, urging himself on

    but then:

    ” these stone throwers…they sneer at the poor”

    But we’ll move on. How did you lot go with that troublesome East German printing press?

  242. Suzanne Blake

    @ negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    Wow, you must live welfare cheque to welfare cheque. Cash splash to cash splash.

    You chould go and live on the commune with Comrade Ormonde and share vege patches. Marilyn can sent you some seeds, labour and instructions, and Liz 45 can also organise some labour to take care of it for you, as you sit on the verandah in the rocking chair and take a toast to your Communist success.

    negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com if it wasn’t for the “Middle Class” you wouldn’t have any infrastructure, let alone internet!!

  243. negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    Welfare for the well off. $8 billion for private schools and $3 billion for the private health rebate

    per year – its a big trough.

    In more than one small country town – two small schools – two principals – two school

    secretaries – two ovals. This is an extravagance that no country can afford.

    Question their entitlements however and the well off will squeal – loudly.

  244. Peter Ormonde

    Excellent referencing … we’re making progress … should really include the link but, if you’re going to do it proper. Now is there anything I said in 1978 you’d like to argue with at all? It’s over 30 years since I wrote or read it but I reckon it’d probably shape up OK. Send me the link.

    As to what I believe now, I’m actually much more awful now that I was then. I used to think we could convince you. Now I don’t care. History will sort you fossils out.

    And at a more personal level, holding all that fear, hatred anger and suspicion in your heart will sort you out far better than anything I can do or say. Kills ya that stuff.

    Laugh more. Listen to music. Get a real job.

  245. Suzanne Blake

    @ Comrade Peter Ormonde (*)

    Spoken like a true Communist. Smash everyone down to the lowest Communist denominator, while the Communist leaders bask in the brothels, private suites in their North Korean Kim plain clothers, trying to fool everyone.

    Games up Comrade.

    (*) Statement by Peter Ormonde and Paul Shanley, Communist Party of Australia, Ecology Action Group. Newcastle Morning Herald, 1978 April 20.

    “But a lot of what I thought then I think now” Peter Ormonde February 4, 2012.

  246. Peter Ormonde

    Guytaur,

    What Troofie/Wizz/Suzanne/Patriot fails to understand is that the pretty much everyone is on some sort of handout from the government … from pensioners who have paid tax all their lives through to the banking executives whose deposits are guaranteed by the Government, or the steel industry moguls, or the car industry… who whinge about having to pay tax at all.

    Health insurance rebates, baby bonuses, paid parental leave, child care rebates, family allowances A and B, Meals on Wheels, nursing home residents, older people, sick people, the PBS …. the list goes on and on.

    What would they abolish these stone throwers? Who should be cut off what?

    Nah they sneer at the poor … always so undeserving … not like those nice clean banking executives.

  247. Suzanne Blake

    @ karldoh

    Good for you. “I got the $900 cash, the solar rebate, the boosted FHB grant, and did some work on the BER. I’ve never had private health, and have not benefited from the rebate one little bit. I just pay through my taxes for this squalid little industry and its overpaid suits and spivs, forcing up the cost of health for us all.”

    When you need a hospital, take a ticket, hope its not non life saving surgery or you may die waiting.

  248. Suzanne Blake

    @ negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    The last figures I saw around 37% of children in Australia don’t to to State Schools. They go so some form of independant, church, non government school.

    That is why Latham screwed up so badly in 2004 nd why Garrett is tip toeing on this issue.

    Parents who do send their kids there are saving the taxpayer hundreds of millions in infrastructure and running costs.

    So your snout would be further away from the trough if they all took thir kids to State Schools – the system would collapse.

  249. taylormade

    Jimmy, as per a previous post, can you please clarify when the the new Mortlake Gas Power Plant will start supplying the Portland Aluminium smelter. The date of when it started or when it is planning to start please.

  250. guytaur

    @geewizz

    I see you think no one with a true disability who cannot work through no fault of their own should get Government support. Rather you want Australia to be like the US and turf the disabled out onto the street.

    I hope that you find out this reality personally. Then you will change your tune quick smart.

  251. Peter Ormonde

    Ah yes Troofie … that evil Gillard …. in less than a year she’s brought the Euro to its knees, pulverised the Greeks and put the brakes on Obama’s job stimulus. Swan probably helped with all that waste.

    Re-writing history isn’t too bad. It’s this rewriting the present I’m having trouble with. Strewth!

    Spurred on by the week’s references to the MacBeth family … I turned to the bard during the week and found this rather astute observation:

    Troofie’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
    And then is heard no more: it is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

    Good isn’t he, that bard bloke?

  252. GeeWizz

    [“Australia has the highest rate of taxpayer funding of private schools in the world”]

    You still haven’t answered the question.

    Are you or are you not on some form of government welfare?

  253. GeeWizz

    Interest rates are now rising under a Gillard Labor govenment.

    2 Banks so far, more to go

  254. Rincewind Hrun

    We can’t discuss matters when we have such huge faith that our tribe is right and their tribe is wrong.

    And conservatism – resisting change – is just early-onset Alzheimer’s disease.

    (Spin isn’t change – it’s deceitful.)

  255. SBH

    thanks floorer – I’m not wound up – just pointing out the stupid lying drivel that pours out of blakes mouth

  256. negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    Australia has the highest rate of taxpayer funding of private schools in the world.

    By the logic of this already privileged snout in the trough crowd because I choose not use

    public transport I am entitled to a taxpayer subsidy to buy and run a private car.

    Listen to ’em squeal.

  257. karldoh

    SUZANNE BLAKE rants about waste in the federal health bureaucracy as if it were a new thing, but she will not whisper a word about the billions given to the private health insurance industry every year. They don’t provide clinical care either, but for ideological reasons, this transfer of wealth from public to private hands is presumed to be legitimate, while when Labor splash the cash for sound economic reasons, it is to be condemned? A declaration: I got the $900 cash, the solar rebate, the boosted FHB grant, and did some work on the BER. I’ve never had private health, and have not benefited from the rebate one little bit. I just pay through my taxes for this squalid little industry and its overpaid suits and spivs, forcing up the cost of health for us all.

  258. MaxJim

    Take a look at the whole world to see the reality of the local political puzzles we try to make sense of. Politicians on any side do not want this to happen, nor do media or we may for a more original set of game plays that are unique to our unique country. Then we can see Tony Abbott is obviously directed through the Karl Rove handbook by his advisers. The media make easy news each day by reporting blow for blow as opposed to expose the plays in advance, thereby actually forcing them to adopt an original strategy.

    This world view would also shed light on the health rebate. It’s not original from conservative governments in its aim. In the uk thatcher wrote this book and strategy. She saw the greatest opportunity to convert labor voters to the conservative side. It was and still is simple, simply tell them that they are infact conservatives and back this up by giving a moderate financial leg up to access what was and probably still is a privilege of the wealthy. In this case private health cover. You even get a card to show you have moved up.

    Pretty soon the new conservatives are more outspoken and harsher critics of their ex labor friends and voters than the rich end of town. And the most incredible thing of all is their hatred is fully reportable because after all they are not the millionaires heaping scorn on the labor end. It worked well for her. The saddest factor in this is the need of a govt to create a visible class system to make it work and Australia didn’t have that in the terms of the uk. So the Howard years ensured by its term it was put in place. How to skim a group from those voters who would fall for flattery by a few small payouts and a lot of flannel.

    Those new liberals are stauncher than the millionaires after all it is important to hold onto a new status when it is smoke and mirrors. Those who cannot afford private health cover without a rebate simply can’t afford private health cover. But the bitterness against anyone who would make that evident. You are after all not removing a rebate you are forcing people to say they cannot afford a privilege and that is worse.

    Tony Abbott has no intention of bringing it back because it was a strategy only, but for everyone who wants to stand by him you can bet there will be another status elevator in the pipeline. Not a tax cut as that doesn’t work but another cheaply printed membership card to access something they can’t afford. Julia Gillard may not be great but I see her as the working parent in this who has stepped in to tell an adult child, living beyond their means that they cannot have any more money from them just so they can go out with their fancy mates and fine dine and keep up the charade.

  259. Suzanne Blake

    @ The Pav

    I cut and pasted the 12,000 comment for you? I did not say it.

  260. Suzanne Blake

    @ Outside Left

    Liar, which side of the fence is a liar. You call them Fiberals, whoopy do what about Australian Liars Party!!

    Which part do you want some evidence. let me know

  261. Schnappi

    abbott will not say if he will reverse the health rebate cutback,seems he talks a lot but does nothing and could achieve SFA,cannot understand why gullible people support his do nothing.

  262. Schnappi

    The Concise Oxford Dictionary should show the word ASPIRATIONS ,to mean abbotts outright lies.

    Without a need to explain why,,just too obvious.

  263. Schnappi

    See another liberal dirty tricks looks like failing,young Kate will hold her seat,and would leave the lnp in qld leaderless,as is the liebrals under abbott,newman and abbott show the worst aspects of politicians ,nothing but opportunism and lust for power ,with nothing to offer the Australian people in return.

  264. Patriot

    The Pav,

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst6-03.htm

    See Table 22: Estimates of Average Staff Levels (ASL)

    An increase of over 20,000 since Labor took over. You don’t have a problem with Wayne’s numbers, do you?

  265. Cuppa

    If you buy the Liberals claim of superior economic management you’re just simple minded.

  266. The Pav

    Dear SB

    They are not my figures they are empirical evidence

    You made an assertion (basically repeated heresay or just made it up) that I proved was wrong on the data by over 100%.

    You must either come up with proof or accept that you are wrong and apologise for wasting our time.

    As you claim to be computer liteate if there is proof you should be able to find it. I don’t expect you will because either:-
    You are too lazy
    too scared that you will fail and have to face the reality of your own intellectual incapacity
    or most likely because it doesn’t exist except in your imagination.

    Hey Jimmy

    The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

    Do you reckon I’m mad

    I keep reasoning with SB she stay as obdurately irrational as ever.

  267. silentmajority

    Dear Suzanne,
    If the Coalition were the least bit credible in their approach they would have:

    a: easliy attracted the support of the independents;

    b: been smart enough to notice that in a hung parliment such as we have, introduced private members bills (with the support of said independents-which they would get. eg the government would not be able to stop them) for which they would gain some credibility.

    c: Offered alternative policies for EVERY piece of legislation that the Govt has presented which might have got up with the support of the independents depending on merit.

    Instead they have done none of these things which indicates that the independents’ support for the Govt is well placed.

    They don’t even know how the game is properly played!
    No! to everything does not offer an alternative.

    If Abbott and his minions had behaved in the least bit appropriately during the term of this parliment towards the very people who’s support they need to form Govt most likely it would be theirs by now. Talk about incompetence? There it is for all to see.

    Instead we’ve seen petulance, smoke and mirrors.

    Substance is what they need but bulldust is what we’ll get.

    btw… do you have a mortgage? If you do then I hope by Monday you’ll have gone to the bank and informed them you intend to sell up and give them the money back because, on principal, you don’t believe in debt.

    You are a fool.

  268. Schnappi

    Just love how small minds getting their howard welfare having babies for the bonus for a deposit on something,can support abbott and morrison and has to include bishop,for deliberately deceiving the Australian people.

    Abbott .morrison and bishop have used a catering company ,understand is guilty of multi million bribes to cost nauru,what deceit,the three should be invesigated as I suspect bribery like the awb,remember bishop bowed to the leader of nauru,the media will not do it ,perhaps the AFP should ,this seems worse than thompson union business ,this could be fraud against the taxpayer for some liberals benefit,and refugee policy by deceit,thought they were turning all boats back,so why a catering company to assess nauru,liberal party we know,one can see the deception.

  269. Frank Campbell

    Nearly forgot the obvious- the stupidity of imposing a carbon tax in this economic, umm, climate.

    The climate’s changed.

  270. Frank Campbell

    Keane has such a selective memory: sure, Hockey’s hyperbolic damnation of the “stimulus package” is excessive, but that’s just Opposition belching. When the GFC struck, no one knew how severe its impact would be on this country- so the stimulus was generally praised.

    But it was soon evident that the crisis had been deferred. Capitalist pigs squealed in terror for a while, then gorged on bonus swill as if nothing had happened. The state socialised their losses, with one corpse left by the road as a warning (Lehmans).

    Two bad things happened- many of the stimulus programs were rorted, and Rudd didn’t know when to turn off the money. Rudd-Gillard incompetence at every level.

    As for the big picture, Keane’s right. Neither side has a clue. Don’t expect dental medicare any time soon…

  271. Peter Ormonde

    Sooz…

    Don’t you go exusing me. I am inexusable.

    I send all my children to private schools. All of us do. Kings, Knox, Riverview … bursting at the seams with the spawn of socialists! This is how we have insinuated ourselves into the upper echelons of society and control everything you see read and think Suzanne. And of course all those private school teachers are slavering bolsheviks… but you’d know that already.

    Incidentally, have you realised how similar you and Troofie are are sounding lately? Real soul mates. Always here together. Chatting. And now Patriot. You three should get a room.

    I am starting to have a vision of Troofie sitting down with three screens all logged on at once chatting to himself, urging himself on, foil hat clamped on over his brutally cauliflowered ears….. sad really. Still beats working in a call centre I guess.

    Thomson Sooz … your purportedly local member spells his name with the p taken out of it. Like Blake.

  272. floorer

    SBH@9.23pm, mate if you let people wind you up on a forum like this that’s your problem not theirs.Get a grip.

  273. Suzanne Blake

    @ Geewizz

    They must be, that why they are so bitterley defending of it.

    I can exuse Peter Ormonde as his past is from the Communist Party, but the others, I not sure. If they are not on it, they must work for the ALP or extreme Greens in some capacity.

  274. Suzanne Blake

    @ negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    Latham took on Non Government / Independant Schools in the 2004 Federal Election and it backfired as you will recall.

    Remember he targetted the King School, about the most expensive Private School in NSW. Guess which Federal Labor MP (in a marginal seat) sends her son there? That should be an interesting complication for Gillard when the debate heats up.

    If Parents took their kids out of non Government schools and sent them to State school, the system would collapse. In any case, they are saving the taxpayer hundreds of millions perhaps more each year across Australia.

    The highest density of Non Government schools per capita is in Canberra!!

  275. GeeWizz

    [“When privileged are called welfare recipients with their noses in trough big time”]

    When was the last time you paid taxes mate? Come on, be honest.

    You are on some form of government welfare aren’t you like most of the leftwing posters.

  276. negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    When privileged are called welfare recipients with their noses in trough big time

    they get upset. The biggest welfare rorting however is in the form of subsidies to private schools.

  277. SBH

    no the 30% is a taxpayer funded donation to businesses that can’t run themselves profitably without it. Amazing how many of you crypto-hayekians support it.

  278. SBH

    And somehow you know how many people that would be Blake? You have no expertise, but you know, you have no experience, but you know, you lack basic facts ad understanding of how the country runs and yet, you know how to run a public service organisation.

    Your self important uninformed opinions have no place in any kind of debate that deals with any issue more important than what flavour gelati you want. idiot

  279. outside left

    SB, to quote my kids ….. Liar, liar, pants on fire. Now off you go to the cemetery to dance on graves. You are fully sick

  280. Suzanne Blake

    @ Outside Left

    Not being a baseball expert, I had to google BOF. Best of Friends? Please explain

    BoF or BOF is an abbreviation for a number of things……the Best of Friends

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoF

    To be honest, I care less about State Politics than I do about Federal. After having Milton The Horrible Orkorpolous as a local State Labor MP, you would have to see our reasoning. Then Craig Thompson MP, Belinda Neal MP, you would have to say we have been poorly served. I forgot The Hon John Della Bosca as well. Now we have Thompson and Deborah O’Neill MP, the latter with 5 houses in the Central Coast and kids at the most expensive Private Schools in Sydney and busted this week for not having a pool fence around her pool at mansion on the water at Bensville.

    @ Peter Ormonde and AR etc

    What an end to a week, where Gillard (and she did not deny it) gags her Front Bench and instructs that no one can talk to the media without clearing with her office.

    What a Primary School effort that is.

    The air must be as toxic as ever in Cabinet.

  281. c d

    You forgot the massive run up in private debt and capitulation to a negative savings rate.

    And don’t forget the baby bonus, that will turn into a real winner in 4-5 years when the first wave of the ‘have a kid, get a plasma’ generation embark on their lives of crime.

  282. CHRISTOPHER DUNNE

    ” Axis of Austerity’s fiscal hairshirt”, what a good line! It’s pretty ironic to finally see the torture rack of IMF policy being vigorously applied to a Western country for once. Of course the usual outcome is economic death of the ‘patient’, and will obviously be this time around.

    But as the article asks, will it be a slow death or a quick one?

    Yet another ‘agreement’ has been reached by the Greeks, but the money markets are not impressed: one year Greek bonds are now yielding over 500%. That’s a staggering amount of scepticism.

    Thank god Phony Rabbit and his band of bloviating bumpkins aren’t sitting on the Treasury benches.

  283. outside left

    SB, spent last weekend on the central coast[hello marginal] the folks I mixed with are engraving the initials BOF on their baseball bats,true!

  284. outside left

    @Floorer, funny!!

  285. outside left

    Captain, you are right. Everytime I push that post button I hear myself DON’T DO IT, but these neanderthals from the right? are on a mission to wear us down, and wimp off ,murmuring away to ourselves as we fade off into the sunset.Stuff em, we have so many rational, humourous ,passionate and decent posters/bloggers here that this war is very winnable

  286. floorer

    On the other hand… if I was Suzanne Blake I’d be rapt with all this response. Sort of like an online vibrator. Look at me…..

  287. GeeWizz

    [“The 30% private health insurance rebate is middleclass welfare.”]

    No it’s a tax return.

    Bludgers who don’t pay any taxes and suckle the tit of the public purse are on welfare.

    Besides as I have pointed out taking people off Private Health insurance and putting them onto Public COSTS the taxpayer more, but it just moves the burden onto the states.

  288. negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    The 30% private health insurance rebate is middleclass welfare.

  289. AR

    Possibly the only reading more dismal & depressing that ORAC’s ravings is that of the reasonable people trying to treat her as reasonable/semi sentient.

  290. Peter Ormonde

    Yeah that’s right Sooz … whaddya need all these paper shufflers for?

    But why only health? Why stop there? Why this limp-wristed, half-baked, nanny-statist, tree-hugging pandering to the fat cats and desk jockeys in Canberra. Root and branch Suzanne…

    All those failures in DIAC who keep letting foreigners in – they’ve gotta go. And the Treasury … look what they’ve done to our dollar! And Aborigines – they’ve had it too good for too long. Defence – the army and navy and stuff … they don’t seem to notice we’re being INVADED here. And Centrelink – that could be just a computer program couldn’t it? And agriculture … after all that drought! And the Bureau of Meteorology too for that matter … those floods! And all that Global Warming silliness. Environment Department? Greens – be full of ’em! And the Commonwealth Coppers and Customs – the place is awash with cheap imported drugs and illegal prostitutes undercutting our Orstrayan entrepreneurial spirit. The Tax Office – professional parasites! And PM&C … that 72,000 strong army of Gillard’s spin maestros. And her body guards…. look at what they did on Australia Day RACE RIOT … wimps! Not a single shooting! Don’t they watch NCIS????

    None of them are worth feeding – let’s sack the lot. Demand Abbott go the whole 9 yards! Smash the State Suz. Leave it a smouldering charred heap of broken twigs. Trample on the mandarins and fat cats. Then – and only then – will we be living within our means. Just like any other 3rd world quarry.

    What do we want? Wholesale sackings! Where do we want them? Your house.

    Demand Abbott commit to 10% cuts across the board in the first and every year of his reign. Do it NOW! He’ll listen to you.

    Right at the top of your game…. how foresnic can one get?

  291. Suzanne Blake

    @ Pav

    Your ABS figures are 19 months old. What about to 6/2011 or later? What about all the extra Climate Department people, the massive increase in Gillards Department?

    @ SBH

    I am not talking about the HSU members and others in hospitals, or the State Health Departments (where the services are actually provided, there maybe waste there as well), I am talking the Federal Health Department. Yes they need people to administer Medicare, State Funding etc , but not 6,000.

  292. GeeWizz

    [“In Blake’s model, doctors would fill in paperwork, run the filing system, fix leaky taps, cook hospital meals etc etc etc then we could get rid of all those lazy bludging public servants who apparently do nothing.”]

    Can you tell us what the “Minister for Sustainable Population” does exactly?

  293. Mike Flanagan

    A good article Bernard, but I’m not sure I could give Mr Costello as much credit as you do. He did little and in fact was probably the laziest treasurer since Billy McMahon. He was most fortunate to hold the position at the beginning of the Mining boom and did little or nothing to use the opportunity for the longterm advancement of the nation. In fact he used most of the increase in the proceeds as triannuall electoral bribes in the vain hope he would replace Mr Howard and gain the power through his largesse.

    Peter Ormonde;
    Whilst Hockey may derserve your sympathy, he is a pitiful figure as a potential Treasurer. Andrew Robb is the innumerate ideologue behind their fatuous figures.

  294. GeeWizz

    Hey Suzanne,

    There is a $1 Billion dollar per year saving in stopping the boats, all Dillard has to do is pick up the phone to the President of Naura.

    Instead she attacks Australians with more taxes, more price rises and more expenses on “Working Families”. She couldn’t give a toss about Australians, she is more busy trying to keep the flood of boaties coming in.

  295. The Pav

    Dear SB

    I am not challenged with a lack of basic skills. Certainly not in the way that you are challenged by fact, accuracy , logic, fairness and reason.

    However you lack factual knowledge or are intentionally dishonest.

    When you say “They’ve increased the PS by 20,000 in Canberra since they were elected”

    You are wrong on two counts. This is absolute and undeniable by a rational person

    The first is obvious even to an intelligence as mean as your. Not all Federal PS are based in Canberra

    The second is the ABS data gives the increase 7/2007 to 6/2010 as 9,175. You are wrong by 10,825 or 117.983651226%. This is actually one of your smaller errors.

    Now do you understand why any thinking person regards you with complete disdain and considers you a troll and buffoon.

  296. SBH

    In Blake’s model, doctors would fill in paperwork, run the filing system, fix leaky taps, cook hospital meals etc etc etc then we could get rid of all those lazy bludging public servants who apparently do nothing. Suzanne you are a lazy dishonest troll and you slide through these comments besmirching people like faecal matter on a sheet.

  297. Suzanne Blake

    @ The Pav

    Sorry, did not know you were challenged with basic computer skills. Try find on page (in your browser).

    But to save you the hassle, here you go

    They’ve increased the public service in Canberra by 20,000 since they were elected and we’ve said, and I know it gets me in trouble with my colleagues in Canberra, but I’ve said that 12,000 will be made redundant within the first two years as a starting point and that’s hard but we’ve got, for example, six and a half thousand people in the department of health that has no patients, no doctors, and no nurses and, I’m sorry, you can’t live outside of your means.

    abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3417259.htm

  298. The Pav

    Dear SB

    You must quote the source. The transcript is not evidence. Who said it, what was the study,Hopefully it was done the samne way the Coalition did its costings for the election. You must provide a credible source. Mainly because you lack any

    I am sorry that the facts do not fit your distorted view bu my source was the ABS and Telstra’s annual report. This is incontrovertable evidence that Howard added PS numbers by SIX times. The maths is there.

    If you cannot accept facts then you should seek help.

  299. Suzanne Blake

    @ Pav

    Read the Monday transcript abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3417259.htm

    Your kidding, the Labor add as many public servants as they can, as its more Union fees, spin doctors and jobs for followers.

    @ Geewizz

    So that $780 million a year. How many acute care, disabled, mental health, regular care beds and on costs does that fund a year?

  300. Owen Gary

    Suzanne & Geewizz

    Your Co-horts pour public money into big business (billions) by ripping the guts out of PUBLIC SERVICES & selling off all our assets. This has always been fiberal policy & shall always remain so.

    The Lib/Lemins slash the public service & replace them with private enterprise contractors who end up costing 3 times as much & deliver a much crappier service to the public, (ie) the CES now defunct replaced by a 10 fold increase in job networks who receive dodgey bonuses for inventing job outcomes!!

    They are dodgey bean counters who leave just enough left for a surplus when their time in office has nearly ended, this is not good fiscal policy. In times gone by this would be called treason!!

    It has been pointed out to you here by nearly everyone, what part of it dont you get???

  301. Captain Planet

    It is bitterly disappointing to see Crikey forums, once a repository of informed, polite and thought provoking debate about the subject matter of the article, dragged down to the level of a puerile slanging match by the monotonously stupid bleatings of an unthinking Coalition fangirl, and the compulsive responses of outraged thinking humans, who are unfortunately incapable of ignoring the trolling and focussing on the issues under discussion.

    This is a tactic used constantly online by right wing trolls. The result is that the only discussion that ever ensues is all about “Gillard’s waste”.

    It’s an online phenomenon. Meeting somebody this dreary, opinionated and completely immune to rational discussion, at a dinner party, I estimate most of us would give her less than 2 minutes of our time before moving on to a more stimulating and rewarding discussion. For some reason this doesn’t seem to work out online, and the conversation is constantly hijacked.

    Shame, isn’t it.

  302. klewso

    “Moi”?
    Sorry “Kristian”, if I’ve offended you, I’m really a committed “free marketeer” – I don’t see why conservatives/political apparatchiks/MPs/senators/their employees/hangers-on and “Limited News employees” (selling partisan party PR and protection) should have a monopoly on “sarcasm/attempted humour” using it to belittle those that think differently. I think that if they can do it, why can’t everyone?
    As for “Wilde”? I’m not a kid in America or born to be wild?
    But I am partial to a bit of Cohen “….. Oh, you really are such a pretty one/I see you’ve gone and changed your name again/And just when I’ve climbed this whole mountain side/To wash my eyelids in the rain……” (“So long Marianne”).

  303. Schnappi

    @SUZZANE BLAKE,
    Wonder if you can guess how many public servants will be required to run abbotts silly direct action plan.
    In addition when abbott unwinds the carbon tax ,and rescinds the MRRT but keeps the superannuation part,and whatever else is going,who is going to do it?you do not just say poof it has gone.Where are the public servants ,abbott is getting rid of 12000 most of which is where all the unwinding will be done,so the libs economy is looking shaky, based on getting rid of 12000,my guess they will employ more.

  304. GeeWizz

    [“Assuming each is paid $65,000 a year on average (in on costs) that $390 million a year. My estimate of $65k a year inc on costs, is probably low. “]

    These are Canberra public servants, try double that

  305. The Pav

    Dear SB

    And what were the numbers under the previous govt?

    As I pointed out under Howard the PS grew at Six times than under the Rudd/Gillard. (Stats ABS & Telstra)

    Please Explain

    As to the 12,000 surplus. I didn’t see the program but if you are going to cite this as a source you need to do some more work and provide hard data and evidence rather than just make airey fairey assertions.

    Based on your performance in Crikey I can only assume that your claim to be in complex employment is that it is a case of nepotism and the decision was not based on commercial grounds or on a sound business case.

  306. Suzanne Blake

    @ Labor Hacks

    What do the 6,000 people in the Federal Department of Health do? They have no beds, no Doctors, no Nurses, no patients.

    Assuming each is paid $65,000 a year on average (in on costs) that $390 million a year. My estimate of $65k a year inc on costs, is probably low.

    What do the 480 people in Gillards PM & Cabinet Department do. I reckon they are on $90,000 a year on average.

    How much waste in Defence and DMO?

    Climate Change Departments another 500.

    What was the figure mentioned on Q&A on Monday, 12,000 surplus Federal Servants at the moment

  307. susan winstanley

    I have no problem with crikey posters arguing with Suzanne Blake (its sometimes entertaining) but from now on could we all just refer to “her” as “Stupid Bint”?

    As in, Stupid Bint@xx, here are the facts…now go away.

    And in anticipation, Stupid Bint can call me Stupendously Witty (correct spelling please).

  308. Jim Reiher

    GEEWIZ – here is a thought: abolish the entire private health care rebate (3 billion a year) and put it into the public health system. It would more than cover the move of some of the current private users to the public system and would allow for better public health care.

    At least abolishing 1 billion (roughly) a year is a good start. (Mind you, it wont move to the public system till that elusive “budget surplus” starts to happen I assume).

  309. Peter Ormonde

    Just to return to the actual story for a bit …

    I actually feel a bit sorry for Joe Hockey… having to follow a script written for Barnaby Joyce.

    Joe has to try and be all things to all people … small government – you bet. Tax cuts? … cheque’s in the mail. Slash government spending? Sure can. But oh no! your industry, your pet project, your middle class welfare handout will all be fine … No no we really mean this Parental Leave tax thing. No we do. Really. No that won’t cost jobs – not like a Labor tax. Oh no…

    We’ll just sack public servants … all the short ones…. Whaddya mean redundancies? We’ll just do what John Howard’s brother did… remember that? No. Me either then.

    And to have to trail around after Tony Abbott trying to explain all this rubbish without bursting into hysterical laughter … trying to keep up with his press releases, his spontaneous commitments, his “good idea at the time” promises …

    Like I said. I feel some sympathy for Joe Hockey. He is caught in a maelstrom.

  310. The Pav

    Geewizz

    This is correcting poor policy that even Gittens agrees was wrong and the Howard govt was told it was would not work

    The “surplus’ is not dependant upon any single measure but upon them all. Just like you can’t kick the winning goal unless somebody kicked the previous goals

    Perhaps the question you should ask yourself is How was it possible that the Howard Govt was only able to deliver a surplus by failing to invest in infrastructure whilst selling off the faimliy silver during a mining boom?

    To put it simply if you went home and siad to the family good news I’ve paid off the mortgage ………..but I had to sell the house off cheap to do it you really haven’t done anything smart and that pretty much is what Howard/Costello did.

    One of the great economic disasters the Howard has inflicted upon us is the sale of the airports. The loss of control of these vital infrastructure assets will be an ongoing impediment to our economic growth. It will be a disaster of growing significance

  311. GeeWizz

    Isn’t it interesting that the only way Labor can manage to post a budget surplus is to hit Australians with yet more taxes and more cost rises.

    This time it’s Private Health Insurance 30% rebate. There will be people now who simply move onto the public health system rather than pay the extra fees.

    So thats a cost saving for the Federal Government, but a signficant liability for state governments who will now need to pay extra for public health cover.

  312. Owen Gary

    Suzzanne

    I think you suffer from (Trivial Drivel Disorder)

  313. The Pav

    Dear David Allen

    Re SB’s response……………….Siiiiigh………

    What’s the saying about arguing with idiots?

    SB is wrong on so many levels isn’t she/it?

  314. Suzanne Blake

    @ Author: David Allen

    “If the government paid you to do a job, say auditing the coalition’s donations electoral return, would that be wasted money?”

    Yes a waste, I work on far more complex jobs that that, any halfwit could do that or the Thompson audit in a few days max. Another week to get statements.

  315. geomac

    SCHNAPPI

    I could have added a lot more but it would have been further off the theme of the article . Reith and for that matter Abetz have me puzzled when I see them on the screen . Reith was sent off to a plum job in the UK , out of sight out of mind scenario . Abetz was a participant in a ham attempt to look like Perry Mason at an inquiry when he was reading from a script concocted by Gretch , Turnbull and himself . Besides the crime of his ham acting there is the deception of the Australian public that he was rooting out the facts when he was actually abetting a massive email fraud . That man has credit ? It wasn,t a silly schoolboy prank like Hockey and his cardboard cutout antics but deception . Imagine in the present climate if a labor senator did the same , the media would trash and burn till it got a resignation .

  316. Cletus Purcell

    Oh, Suzanne Blake – such a worry!

    May I refer you to this story that tells the BIGGEST deficit item in the 2012-2013Federal Budget is John Howard’s 2007 Tax Cuts: See:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/howards-tax-cuts-frustrate-rudds-reforms/story-e6frg6zo-1225813625078

    Now, Suzanne – listen-up! You will note this report from Boxing Day 2009 didn’t appear on any leftist-pinko newspaper site – nor that bastion of Stalinist media flakes over at the ABC either.

    Nope! It comes from “The Australian”- hardly an organ of the Workers Paradise & flat cap unionism of a very time long ago that you sincerely appear to believe still exists.

    As to fiscal veracity & good practice – you suffer selective amnesia too. Howard lost 7 Ministers & censured/demoted another2 in his FIRST term in Office. Later we had “Ring Ring Reith” & another couple that couldn’t play a straight bat or declare a pecuniary interest to save their lives.

    I welcome robust debate, but fanatics & zealots can’t cover-up the combined mish-mash of fiscal-illiteracy shown by Robb, Hockey & Abbott. And lets not overlook rural fiscal genius, Barnaby Joyce either – man of the land & destroyer of a taxpayer-funded Toyota Landcruiser said genius deliberately drove into flood waters. A major worry too.

  317. outside left

    She’ be back, just needs pat riot and troofie to support her

  318. Jimmy

    I don’t want to sound like I am blaming others for my addiction but maybe if the moderator spent less time looking for L & I next to each other and more time blocking stupidity (not to emtion homophobic slurs) it might help.

    Generally the best patch for SB is to challenge her to produce some evidence, she disappears pretty quick after that!

    On another topic, how is it that Abbott supporters can be so outraged about Gillard not telling the truth but when you ask them about his stated policy they just say “Oh that won’t happen, it just an aspiration”

  319. floorer

    Jesus what a b*tch fest.

  320. The Pav

    Thanks Kris.

    Hey Jimmy lad,

    If you can get nicotine patches to help perhaps you can get Crikey to issue SB patches?

  321. Schnappi

    @GEOMAC,
    You could have added reith did worse than what is alleged about thompson,reith stole from taxpayers,and howard did not sack him,and now reith is all over the media.

  322. Kristian

    Keep it up, Jimmy and Pav.

    When you’ve finished with SB, there’s a couple more trolls you can get started on.

    And after them, there’s those who “use too many” “quotation marks” and “think” “they’re” a “modern-day-Wilde”…

  323. geomac

    I guess when you have people like Morrison citing figures from a catering firm that Nauru could be brought up to scratch for much less than treasury has assessed looking back is the preference . Morrison claimed the whole operation was costed but the catering firm only assessed the catering side and declared detention operations were not involved . Abbotts PPS is acknowledged as biggest howler with everyone declaring it a shocker and thats both left and right .
    I wonder if the libs will remember the Costello flirtation with flogging off our gold reserves but maybe thats still under a no no , don,t mention the war scenario . The coalition can,t even read from the same song sheet regarding finances going all the way back to Abbotts budget reply to now . At least Howard and Costello presented a united front even if one wouldn,t honour his promise to depart and the other was too timid to challenge preferring to do the campaigning in the background .
    No GFC but there was an asian crisis , hmmmm . I guess there was no structural deficit built into Howards hand outs either . I assume next thing is that they will tell us Howard increased spending on health rather than the reduction of 10% that saw it go from 50% to 40% that actually happened . Labor has restored health to its previous position as well as increased spending on education . The BER or flag poles ? Parents of school children know the answer to that one . Insulation or no insulation ? Nearly a million home owners answered that one despite the alarms raised by the opposition . Same amount of fires before and during but hey facts aren,t relevant are they ? All four deaths were the result of contractors not adhering to the standards laid down for installation . Strange how the libs want Thompsons blood for alleged malfeasance yet never once called for prosecution of contractors who caused a death . Strange priorities that mob .

  324. Jimmy

    The Pav – Something like that, probably more like a pack a day smoker who is trying to go cold turkey but in effect only smoking half a pack.

  325. David Allen

    Jim Reiher

    “And as another writer noted: that meant you could give $900 to a good charity and not cut into your normal income of savings to do it.”

    Not to mention a handsome income tax deduction.

  326. Fran Barlow

    [@Jim Reiher – nice to meet you Jim – I sent mine to a bushfire charity – all of it.]

    So it was usefully deployed after all. Glad to see you acknowledge it wasn’t a waste.

  327. Jim Reiher

    Billy Blogs – thanks for the note. I admire that you gave the money to a worthwhile charity. BUT that is not sending it back to the govt and telling them it needed to stay in their hands. You actually spent it like the rest of us did. You happened to spend it unselfishly (unless giving to charity is worth more to your subconscious ego than buying a flat screen tv might be), but you still spent it. And as another writer noted: that meant you could give $900 to a good charity and not cut into your normal income of savings to do it.

    So my point still stands: I have still not met a single coalition voter who returned the money.

  328. The Pav

    Hey Jimmy.

    Is it a case of “I can resist everything except temptation” ?

  329. Jimmy

    Zut – Yeah I know, the stupidity is like a siren’s song. I am definitely trying.

  330. Owen Gary

    @SB or should I say BS??

    “The National Health System” (Labor I believe) Its Architect- Aneurin Bevan, a truly inspirational man & real hero of the people.

    You would do well to read about this Welshman who supported & gathered the masses & defeated the tyranny you support.

    What we have today was his initiative, what we face tomorrow will be its destruction under Abbotts initiative!!

    “Privatise” from the Latin term “Privare” which means to deprive!!!

    The big Pharmas & their associated multinationals are steadily destroying it by ripping it off & selling useless drugs on 0ne hand & using legislation to stop the herbal industry on the other.

    SB-Be careful what you wish for cause you might just get it. As far as the 2pp polling, Labor is rising. Unfortunately your right-wing protagonists own the mainstream media & Im afraid a lot of them are brainwashed as they are not “Critical Thinkers” maybe you are known to many by them!!

    I have never known in my lifetime such a concerted & biased media attack on a government that is actually doing a pretty good job & who will give us the best internet access in the world, unlike Turbulls proposed (2 paper cups & a piece of string)

    Whats even more staggering is that (Malcolm Turncoat) is even a minister for communications when he owns internet companies & is affiliated with many more, how the hell did this conflict of interest sneak under the radar!!!

  331. Arty

    Microseris, it’s the Dunning–Kruger effect in action.

  332. zut alors

    Jimmy @ 3.51pm : ‘… it would only save about $5b over 4 years, where does the other $65b come from!’

    First Dog illustrated the answer to that in Wednesday’s cartoon.

    Jimmy, at 1.59pm you gave some excellent advice about ignoring A Certain Party on this thread but do not appear to have followed through yourself.

  333. The Pav

    Hey Jimmy,

    One of dear ole SBs hobbyhorses is Gillard is untrustworthy.

    Abbott was/ is a journalist (this is why he’s so good at three word slogans and nothing else) and we all know where they rate on the trustworthy polls.

    One other thing if Abbott is so good then why didn’t he rise further in the talent deprived enviroment of the Howard govt?

    I think even JWH knew he was a crock of ………!

    No wonder he has Sloppy Joe as his shadow treasurer

  334. David Allen

    Yes Pav,

    The present health premium rebate scheme is like having the poor subsidise pheasant on the basis that it will stop the rich competing for gruel.

    Heard Dutton on ‘The World Today’. What a complete and absolute gormless twit he is. Listen online if you missed it.

    SB. If the government paid you to do a job, say auditing the coalition’s donations electoral return, would that be wasted money?

    If not, why not?

    Explain how paying you to do a job is different from paying, say, a carpenter to do a job.

  335. Holden Back

    Back to Foresnia wi’ye, Nessie!

  336. Observation

    Come on guys…give us real alternative…invest in some smarts rather than head kickers!

  337. Schnappi

    Under the 3 stooges,abbott,hockey robb,the taxpayer will pay billions under the direct action plan,to give to high polluting companies.
    Would like for liberal voters to say how they would be better of under a backflipping abbott.
    The parental leave scheme is only for the rich as we already have a parental scheme.

    So intrested in anything that will change my life,enrich my life ,give me a better standard of living?under a shallow opportunist that has nothing but personal gain or himself,the rest of the hasbeens just want power,wyatt roy will save us.

  338. Observation

    I think the cracks in the Abbotts camp armour is beginning to appear. What have they all been doing over Christmas break. I know we all need a holiday but it seems they are all wandering around like stunned mullets. No economic policies from Hockey Bear, Bishop looks as though she is in some sort of limbo and Abbott has gone into playing the repeat button on all his one liners!

    Where are they? Have they actually had enough of the Tony show? Has the complete idiocies of the man finally starting to wear thin? The only voice I hear from this camp is the yapping of a poodle, and he is too silly to look around and smell the coffee!

  339. Jimmy

    The Pav – Yeah those facts can get tricky, best to ignore them and rant on!!

    It is also interesting that when challenged on how they will find the $70b the coalition point to cutting 12,000 public servants (strange how a few hundred manufacturing workers is a national disaster but 12,000 public servants is to be praised) but even if the sack all these workers on their first day (instead of the planned natural attrition) and don’t have to pay out any redundancies (which as discussed here previously doesn’t happen and in fact the PS actually like job cuts as they take their payout wait a few months and rejoin the service) it would only save about $5b over 4 years, where does the other $65b come from!

  340. The Pav

    Thanks Jimmy, I can but try.

    As the saying goes “Not all conservatives are stupid but all stupid people are conservative” Guess that sums up dear old SB. Poor old logic & values deprived SB. Pls note I never chide her on her spelling/grammar errors as people in glasshouses…

    For example in a previous post she has a rant about staff numbers in the Public Service as ALP wast but as is usual the facts don’t support her

    When Howard was elected in 1996 the PS was 66,641 excluding Telstra. In 2007 it was 155,421. This is an increase of 88,780 or 133% over 11 years or 12% per year.

    Under Rudd / Gillard from 2007 to June 2010 an incerease of 9175 or 5.9% in total or less than 2% per year.

    This means Howard/Costello grew the PS at SIX times the rate of the current administration.

    Now I don’t accept that this is necessarily waste but for fools like SB to say that this governement is worse then I go back to my previous statement that compared to Howard/Costello/Abbott the current govt is rank amateur.

    BTW if you go to any other measure this is still the truth. The amazing thing is that the lie that the Liberals are better manager somehow survives against all the evidence.

    Oh well I can only hope the recent mental health initiatives bear some fruit and SB gets treatment.

    She will now probably post. that she doesn’t think Abbott isn’t the answer yet curiously enough never hold him to account

  341. Jimmy

    The Pav – I rest my case!!!!!

  342. Suzanne Blake

    @ The Pav

    What the Health Insurance Rebate that Rudd promised to keep?

    The ALP MP’s don’t care they get so much money in allowances, extra and salary that the extra $1300 a year is nothing to them. They probably get taxpayer subsided free health anyway

  343. Jimmy

    The PAv – You are the eternal optimist!! Note also Abbott will fight it but not necessarily repeal it.

    You could also ask SB to discuss how the inefficient “direct action” policy will not lead to massive waste. Or why companies should pay increased taxes so the wealthy can get paid maternity leave butjust don’t expect a rational response any time soon.

  344. The Pav

    Dear SB

    In the unlikely event you do have a rational brain cell read what Gittens writes about Howards’Health Insurance policy. I assume not even you would consider him left wing

    “Gittins writes:

    “Howard’s subsidy of health fund premiums was really a vote-buying election promise and a gift to the well-insured Liberal heartland. He tried to justify it by claiming that getting more people into private insurance would relieve the pressure on public hospitals.

    As all the experts predicted at the time, it didn’t work.”

    If you want to talk about waste Swan and the ALP are complete amateurs compared to Howrad & Costello.

    Here is bad policy that needs to be fixed and yet your pin up boy Abbott obstructs and you accept this uncomplainingly vecause it doesn’t fit your distotred view.

    I still have a faint hope that eventually the weight of evidence will break through into your conscience and overcome your irrational posturing

  345. Jimmy

    Observation – I completely agree regarding the lost opportunity, Howard Achieved some things in his first 2 terms (eg GST & Firearms laws) but after that just created a structural deficit, where were the big reforms? Imagine if he had of brought in a MRRT in 2003, how much better off would the country have been?

    I also agree that Abbott constantly recalling the “Howard years” will get people thinking “workchoices” and asking what exactly they got out of the first mining boom.

  346. Suzanne Blake

    @ Freak

    Amazing how many left wing zealots we have on Cri ckey now. I guess the other boards moderate you before posting.

    If Labor was so good, why is their polling low 30’s and 2PP mid 40’s?

    Going on your zealots, it should be 20% higher on both counts.

    Again Z Freak, I assume you live in a safe seat, go and smell the rosed in a seat where the majority is a few percent. This you will be freaking.

  347. Observation

    The Howard and Costello era was the biggest missed opportunity to develop some major incentives and infrastructure programs since the fifties!

    Just hoarded the cash in government treasury and sat on their hands. Oh but that’s right, now I remember, at one stage they gave us a massive tax cut of about $5 per week. Damn, how is Hockey forgetting that one!

  348. Mr Freak

    SB, like most conservatives, your grasp of economics is woeful. You seem to label deficit as bad, yet when it is used for growth, you get quicker returns. Howard / Costello did not have any idea how to handle a struggling economy (2006-2007 structural deficit paints that picture clearly) and thought middle class welfare was the answer. Zero investment and infrastructure left the country ill-prepared for the GFC. Labor had to fix it and quick.

    Now, go away. You are playing in the big kids sandbox.

  349. Filth Dimension

    SB – the sad thing about your posts is by the time I’ve deciphered your grammar, I realise you’re not really saying anything anyway. BAM!

  350. shepherdmarilyn

    SB, give us a rest.

  351. Suzanne Blake

    @ Jimmy

    LOL.

    So common Jimmy, you work in Gillard’s spin office or your on the Craig Thompson Fairwork delay crew or both.

  352. Jimmy

    Microseris – Didn’t see the article but it does reconcile with personal experiences.

    SB – Keep going you are just proving my point.

  353. Meski

    Abbott & co may be making a big mistake reminding people of Howard. Many do not remember him fondly, and their hate for him and his henchmen far exceeds the mere dislike swinging voters have for Gillard. And that’s what it’s all about, those voters who change who they vote for, from election to election. Rusted on voters like SB don’t count. :^)

  354. Bill Hilliger

    Of course Hockey seriously believes that the Asian financial crisis is comparable to the events of 2008-09, that financial crises. Only a fool would, and as we all know when applied to Suzanne Blake and Billy Blogs; it takes a fool to know a fool, eh Suzanne and Billy! And of course fools seldom differ, hence the unquestioned support for “Mo Joe-nomics”.

  355. Microseris

    Fires associated with installation of insulation were no more frequent than the background incidence, whilst I don’t know why any liability would attach to the government which simply encouraged the works with a subsidy. Fires also occurred as a result of solar panel installation when Howard offered a subsidy. Can’t see how this would be his governments fault either.

    Jimmy, I trust you saw the Guardian article this week reporting on a Canadian study which found those with a low IQ were attracted to the conservative side of politics. That is not to say all conservative voters are stupid. Plenty of conservative policies are self serving. But rather a statistically high percentage of those from the shallow end of the intelligence pool are attracted to “rightwing ideologies that promote coherence and order” and “emphasise the maintenance of the status quo”. The article noted – Conservative ideology is the “critical pathway” from low intelligence to racism.

    May explain why all that dog whistling paid off for Howard and why the hate mongers of the Murdoch Media and Sydney radio get so many from the lower socio-economic demographic to support causes like those of the billionaire miners, often to their own detriment (MSPT).

  356. Suzanne Blake

    @ Jimmy

    Blind Freddie knows of the Swan waste:

    – Roof insulation
    – Roof insulation fix up
    – BER
    – Solar
    – Massive increase in public service. How many people work in Plibasecks Health Department? over 5,000 and they dont control one bed, one doctor or one nurse.
    – Gillard PM & Cabinet Department, hundreds of people, more added at last budget.
    – Cash Spash 1 & 2
    – Border Security waste, Malaysia money and for what?
    – Rudds trips overeas to boost his own ego and job prospects at UN. What was the point of last weekend trip?
    – Emerson is off to Malaysia in a few weeks for a 3 hour photo shoot!!

    the list goes on.

  357. klewso

    “Turn Back the Clock”? It’s like watching FUX after eating chilli – everything’s repeated?
    Bring back Cousin Jethro, I say, as assistant Shadow Fine Ants Minister – have a family reunion with Mumbo, Jumbo & Dumbo – I’m tired of “The Three Stooges”.
    Let’s watch “The Farx! Brothers” in “Horse Feathers”.

  358. Jimmy

    Billy – Not exactly the same thing there is it, you increased govt debt to stimulate the economy. The money allowed you to donate generously and keep all the money you had previously.

  359. negativegearmiddleclasswelfarenow.com

    The NBN will prove a useful wedge in rural and regional Australia for Labor.

    Better this wedge than more middleclass welfare Howard style.

  360. Billy Blogs

    @Jim Reiher – nice to meet you Jim – I sent mine to a bushfire charity – all of it.

  361. zut alors

    As part of the Coalition’s nostalgianomics has Abbott/Robb/Hockey reminded us of the bit where the Howard/Costello cash rate was a couple percent higher than under Rudd/Gillard?

  362. Jimmy

    SB – “ignore everyone except people with your own rusted on ideas” Just ignore people who are unable or unwilling to do anything other than repeat the same few catch phrases, back their statements up with facts or contribute to a meaningful debate of policy.

    I have repeatedly challenged anyone to defend the various economic policies of the coalition and you have not responded, I have repeatedly disproved your claims of “waste” and you have ignored the facts and no I have grown tired of your idiocy.

  363. Jim Reiher

    I have not met a single Coalition voter who returned their $900 cheque.

    All talk and no action… like the party they support

    And there is hardly a school in the country that is complaining that they got a new building. (Oh … hang on… the liberal voting small businesmen and women who put in huge quotes to do the work … they ripped off the tax payers! … so let all the loud Coalition supporters call for more regulation of small businesses so that they cant make maximum profits!! What a joke! They dont want that. They usually want the opposite: less regulation and less government interference in their business activity!)

  364. Owen Gary

    @Suzanne

    You really are a diehard Liberal lemin, was this brainwashed into you from a child by mummy & daddy because their parents were as well.

    Abbott is a Rhodes scholar, perhaps it might be worth your while reading up & processing some knowledge about “Cecil Rhodes” & is ideology, it is obvious to see the Liberals were cloned from this.

    Zionist bankers who have brought the world economy to where it is now with the so called freemarket rationale. (This rationale is being used to take us backwards to the dark old days can you not see this??)
    The make up of the Liberals are mostly puppets to these multinational financial & corporate institutions.

    I see both major parties as mainly a farce maintaining the illusion there are great differences between them. Traditionally Labor represented the mainstream of the populace whilst the Liberal/Conservative represent the lord & master who ruled over them with an iron fist.

    Once we revisit these times as we ultimately will due to government not powerful enough to bring these institutions down, will you then still bleat on saying its all Labors fault????

    However the Libs hand out most of the taxpayers money to these corrupt giants wheras Labor give it back to the people.

    All the major reforms throughout history that matter through infrastructure, Health, Education, Public Transport etc, have been implemented by Labor.

    “Liberals have been nothing more than dodgey bean counters who cut the public purse to put more in the pockets of these faceless & corrupt neanerthals & just enough left at the end of their term in office to say we have a surpus”.

    “If the government is in surplus the community is in deficit”

    So please give your meaningless rants away!!

  365. klewso

    It’s simply “Mo’ Joe-nomics” – “Pea (brained) and thimple”?
    “Now you see it …… Hey! where’s that elephant gone?”

  366. Suzanne Blake

    @ Jimmy

    Good Labor man you are, ignore everyone except people with your own rusted on ideas. The part is always right.

    March on, solidarity. Wake up, your belly is being eaten by the extreme Greens.

  367. Jimmy

    Billy – “If someone buys a $1m house but pays $2m for it and gives it to you……for free, are you going to complain?” And the independent report’s findings Billy, they just weren’t going to complain either?

  368. Greensborough Growler

    Talking about piling money up and setting fire to it, here is a splendid example of what the Libs did, not what they say they did.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/400000-sweetener-became-400m-20111028-1moa4.html

  369. Jimmy

    Could I ask everyone to ignore SB’s rantings in the hope we can have an intelligent discussion. We all know what she is going to say, many of us have provided numerous facts that prove she is completely wrong and she still just repeat’s it ad nauseum. Ignore her and she will disappear.

  370. Billy Blogs

    Jimmy – If someone buys a $1m house but pays $2m for it and gives it to you……for free, are you going to complain? Didn’t think so.

  371. Suzanne Blake

    @ jeebus

    The $900 cheques was minor waste in the scheme of it. Yes some went to people overseas and dead people, but not big in the scheme of thing. A lot went into pokies (state govt tax) and flat screens (China).

    Its all the other waste.

  372. tinman_au

    Nice to see the Libs admitting their best years economically are behind them…

  373. Suzanne Blake

    @ Filth Dimension

    Its a big issue, we will be paying back Swans waste for a long time. Its not trivial.

  374. merlot64

    I think Abbott’s comment the other week that the coalition would “do less” is highly telling. The only reason that the Howard “government” managed to build a surplus is that they did nothing. The coalition let infrastructure and services wither. AND, for the record, introduced the biggest Great Big New Tax – the GST.

  375. Filth Dimension

    S.B that old cd is skipping. Don’t you have another one?

  376. jeebus

    Wasted, Suzanne? I thought conservatives like having their money handed back to them? Or does that only count if it’s conservative governments handing back the money?

    Wayne Swan and Kevin Rudd wrote 8 million Australians cheques for $900! How can you call that wasted money?

    Sure, it added a small amount to the public debt, but we avoided the global recession as a result, and during a time of global economic devastation it injected a much needed boost of demand and confidence into our economy.

    Labor needs to sell its record more effectively.

  377. Jimmy

    Billy blogs – Don’t worry about facts there Billy, just keep up the Jones like rant.

    Up to our eyeballs, yeah if you keep your eyeballs in your sock.

    “Schools that have a $1m building that cost them $2m is hardly good value.” The schools, parents and independent report seem to disagree there Billy.

  378. Jimmy

    One week in and Gillards strategy of making 2012 about the economy is paying big dividends, Hockey has been terrible all week, Abbott keeps changing his tune & Robb just seems to say the opposite of Hockey.

    I will again challenge anyone to defend the various economic policies of the coalition but I assume that I will get the usual guff that they are only “aspirations” and we should just vote them in and trust everything will be fine because they always manage the economy better!

    I will also say that I think the Libs seem to think we are all idiots who can’t see the difference between pre GFC & Post, it may work for a short time but sooner or later the public is bound to see through the charade, especially if the policies and messages are so confused.

  379. guytaur

    The Coalition thinks it can still bask in the economic failure of the Whitlam Government proving them to be the credible economic managers.

    Some news for them. They re talking about a period that is essentially pre computer. To most voters the age of the Dinosaur. See Life on Mars” for an idea.

    In today’s world the Coalition have no Whitlam Figleaf to cover their economic shortcoming’s.

  380. Billy Blogs

    They are not saying that the Asian collapse was bigger than the GFC, but we continued to pay off debt right through 11 years of history to a point where we had billions of cash in the bank. Rudd came to power and took those billions of savings and turned them into hundreds of billions of debt in record breaking time.

    You can argue how serious the threat was, but to spend billions on insulation that have now been burnt in Swannies back yard is hardly value for money. Schools that have a $1m building that cost them $2m is hardly good value.

    Now we have a second and potentially more dangerous round of the GFC coming and we are up to our eyeballs in debt with nowhere to go. China didn’t so-much as sneeze during GFC1 – don’t be so sure we’ll be this lucky again.

  381. Suzanne Blake

    Bernard, but Swan has wasted the largest amount of money in Australia’s history. Nothing else comes close?

  382. Matthew of Canberra

    John Howard wouldn’t have let wivenhoe flood.

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