Why the silence on Libya?
|
Iran was the goods, uprising wise, for the neocons. Evil, Islamist/Shiite anti-Western dictator, good folks on streets, twittering away. Brave young folk, women being extra-persecuted, etc, etc. Slam dunk. Tunisia? Pretty good. Place didn’t matter, uprising wasn’t Islamist, could make a claim that Dubya lit the (extremely slow-burning) fuse of freedom, etc, etc. Egypt? Tricky. Really tricky. Our pharaoh in Cairo, keeping a lid on the Muslim Brotherhood, backstopping Gaza. On the other hand, the protesters sounded pretty modern, and dammit they had media access. Had to talk about the shadowy Islamists behind it all, and the damn Right got split down the middle by it. Bahrain? Christ, there’s a US fleet there. It’s less a country than a jetty. Libya? Libya?? Libya????? Oh shut up. The Right’s gradual and encroaching silence about the Arab uprisings is a wonder to behold. On National Review, the US conservative website, which ran wall-to-wall coverage of the Iranian protests in 2009, and berated the left for not praising the brave Iranians, there is barely a word — just as there has been barely a word on Bahrain. In The Spectator, Melanie Phillips focused on the attack on US reporter Lara Logan, taking her attackers to be representative of the whole crowd — and not the women protesters and soldiers who rescued Logan. In Oz, the Bolter has a straight news rundown on his blog, and manages to use the Libyan thing to attack … the United Nations. Nothing at all on Quadrant. The News Ltd Blogger Who Cannot Be Named because S/he Will Sue (TNLBWCBNBS/HWS) confines self to a side issue. And at the Oz, a contribution from the opinion page is confined to … Strewth. Why such reticence? The bravery of the Libyans is immense, inspiring. And they appear to be winning against a heavily armed regime whose fearsome power is crumbling … Ah, of course. It is precisely because the Libyan uprising has occurred at all that it makes so little appearance on right-wing radar. For it kicks away another prop from the neocon argument about the Iraq invasion, and intervention more generally — that some regimes are so heavily armed that a people’s liberation must be done on their behalf. This was fall-back position No.2 in the war, as I recall, after the WMDs thing. For a giddy while there in 2003-4, the debate was mainly around who we’d invade next — Zimbabwe? North Korea, with nukes (Johann Hari’s choice)? Eventually we settled on the Northern Territory. The “proxy liberation” defence survived for quite a while. Desperate members of the British Labour Party adopted the mantra — “the world is better off without Saddam Hussein” — although they didn’t mention the 200,000 or so other people the world was deprived of in the ensuing years. The Libyan revolution makes it clear that the Iraqi people could have, and almost certainly would have, stood up to Saddam in this current wave of uprisings — taking upon themselves the responsibility for their own liberation, and the sacrifice of it. It’s a process whose importance lies as much in the meaning it gives to death — chosen, willed, as opposed to getting shot at a checkpoint or bombed — as it does to life. Furthermore, as the other uprisings have shown, it would have generated genuine solidarity among people, rather than the seemingly permanent divisions created by the US’s clientalism. That’s a clue to the second reason why the Right has lost any ability to speak — the argument that there were anti-American ultra-dictators made it possible to defend dictators such as Hosni Mubarak. Thus Melanie Phillips in one of her 50,000 jeremiads bemoaned the simple abandonment of America’s allies in a process that would not challenge America’s enemies. That got even more complicated when one of Gaddafi’s sons came on TV, in junior Dr Evil garb, to say that his dad was all that stood between his country and the Islamists. The Right’s paralysis is that on the one hand this may be truer of Libya than of other places, due to the absence of organised political opposition. But they can’t support Gaddafi. The confusion is now total for them — principally because the one thing they can’t admit is that had there been no Iraq invasion, Iraq would now be part of this process. From there, it ramifies endlessly. For all the talk of not appeasing dictators, the red carpet has been rolled out for Gaddafi, ever since it became clear that Libya might have quite a bit more oil left than some of the other Arab states. This involved a largely ceremonial process whereby Libya was welcomed back into the trade club after it surrendered its vestigial WMD program, and cemented further when Lockerbie bomber Al-Megrahi was released with extensive UK government support. Tony Blair is one figure who put a lot of hope in Gaddafi as “someone we can do business with”. There are more photos of Blair with Gaddafi, than with his youngest child. Now the nightmare scenario has occurred. The Libyan UN delegation has quit the government en masse and asked the international community to intervene and help ordinary Libyans. Goddamit — after all that talk about the West having a mission for international solidarity and the defence of universal values, somebody actually believed it. Listen to the sound of the pro-war party rushing to demand that their governments respond to the Libyans’ call. (*Tumbleweeds*). Nevermind, some of them are on the case. David Aaronovitch has intervened — to remind us that a WikiLeaks associate once said some nice things about Gaddafi. Meanwhile in Cairo, where the public is starting to square off against the military, David Cameron has arrived … with the heads of eight arms manufacturing companies. You couldn’t make it up. You don’t really need to. Can anyone not say that military humanitarianism is finally, utterly dead? |
|
|
|
62 Comments
I’m confused, i am looking at the front page of The Australian with the headline ‘Rivers of Blood’ to run in Libya as Gaddafi clings to power by John Lyons; with more reports on page 10. Hardly “gradual and encroaching silence”.
Good comment, especially the note about Iraq. Can we finally quit the Iraq fantasy and admit that the invasion was a war crime, Howard a war criminal, the Australian troops who carried out the “turkey shoot” in the western desert, are war criminals and that in fact our “side” led by the US are the real 21st century terrorists. Just acknowledge this and then we can move on.
Rundle stated “The Libyan revolution makes it clear that the Iraqi people could have, and almost certainly would have, stood up to Saddam in this current wave of uprisings — taking upon themselves the responsibility for their own liberation, and the sacrifice of it.”
They tried it, before Operation Desert Storm, and the Iraqi military used nerve gas on them.
They tried it, when the American’s imposed a no-fly zone after they withdrew from Iraqi territory, and the Iraqi military blew the marsh dwellers in the South back into the stone age with artillery and armoured units.
The only reason the Iraqi’s have been Saddam free and voting in kibnda free elections is because Saddam was deposed by the West and tried and hung by the Iraqi people.
Could it be that a similar uprising in Iraq would end up being directed against the US military?
If that were to happen, what would it mean for Afghanistan?
In these places, the US is propping up dysfunctional governments in a pretty active way. Would both the dictator and the foreign army be the focus of an uprising?
Guy is referring to the opinion coverage specifically rather than the straight news reporting - though for the Aus this can be hard to pick.
As long as I can go on leaving the pub before Michael C gets to that part of his rant I’ll stay around to give some limited support to Guy Rundle even though both Charles Eller and Michael James have made heavy hits.
I’ll go along with the Iraq invasion having been a bad idea quite apart from any questions which might be raised under that dubiously called “law” which is International Law. I am on record in a UK academic forum as having observed in 2003 that the US no longer had either the military or economic might to achieve its (largely ignorantly devised and initiated) ambitions. Add its failures of intelligence and understanding of the Middle East (for which it is hard to be too censorious of the only superpower given that the world is a vast and varied place, except that it neglected to acknowledge all those unknown unknowns as having reality and being out there somewhere) and the Iraq invasion was not only ill planned and provided for but a bad idea in the first place.
Only if you hate John Howard like Malcolm Fraser - and the public loathing is not just a recent invention because Malcolm wants to be seen now as the reinvented true liberal humanitarian - do you call him a war criminal or even criticise him for keeping Australia in with the US for another decade (as Simon Crean or Kim Beazley would have whatever they might like us to believe). Remember when assessing Howard’s actions, more that BTW, that we lost only one soldier in Iraq, and that was an accident . Mind you, he doesn’t seem to have said anything sensible to George W. Bush - but, like it or not, that made not the slightest difference to Bush’s decisions, and never would have (even Blair only getting a bit more effort in the UN).
So, I also agree with Michael James that some dictators won’t be brought down without excessive suffering by their people unless outsiders assist or do the job themselves. Pretty obvious in fact when you think of North Korea or Burma without going into hundreds of brutal examples over a few thousand years. And I also accept it as morally desirable that it be done if it is done properly, adequately planned, adequately supplied with men and material and adequately followed through. Just don’t expect much of that from the US, even when it really has power to do it. Surely it could have sorted out Somalia well enough so that, at least, there wasn’t a huge piracy problem. Fortunately Africa will probably be sorted out by China which won’t have too many scruples and will apply the necessary manpower.
There’s a precis of rebellions and failed coups against Saddam here:
http://www.ecn.org/golfo/eng/articles/doc33eng.html
Each time push came to shove, the US preferred Saddam the strongman to remain and be strengthened through the hideous sanctions - collective punishment - applied against the Iraqi people rather than a power vacuum.
“The only reason the Iraqi’s have been Saddam free and voting in kinda free elections is because Saddam was deposed by the West and tried and hung by the Iraqi people.”
You just might be a spanner my man.
@ Kieran Chrichton,
“Could it be that a similar uprising in Iraq would end up being directed against the US military?”
Not if the Iraqi people know what is good for them.
The strength of the popular uprisings in the middle east at the moment, is that any armed opposition to the popular uprising, must come from the military or police of the country in which the uprising is occurring.
In the case of Libya, this means Libyan Army and Air Force personnel have to shoot and kill their fellow Libyans. Many people find this difficult to do (witness the 2 pilots who defected to Malta rather than shoot their own countrymen). Thus the uprising stands a chance of success.
An uprising in Iraq against the Americans has been going on already for a long, long time. The difference there is that the Americans have not really demonstrated too many qualms about shooting, blowing up, assassinating, torturing, firebombing and annihilating, the Iraqi people. I certainly haven’t heard of an US pilots defecting to Iran rather than shoot Iraqis.
Iraq also has an entrenched divide between Shi’ite and Sunni Muslims, so for every radical who wants to rise up against the US, there is another who wants to support the US.
It is not yet a foregone conclusion that Libya will free herself from Gadaffi.
Rundle’s Article is a timely reminder.
Those who supported our wars of aggression over the last 10 years, were willing to go to war in Afghanistan on the flimsiest of evidence that Osama Bin Laden might have masterminded a terrorist attack against another country, and might be hiding in Afghanistan. ( The true motives for this war, almost certainly had more to do with American and CIA control of the world’s most abundunt Opium supply, as a source of untraceable funding for yet more covert operations interfering with sovereign governments around the world. It hardly need to be pointed out that Saddam Hussein himself, Gadaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, and a score of dictators in South America, have been installed and supported by the USA using money from the illicit drug trade, in total willing acceptance of their atrocious human rights records).
Those who supported our wars of aggression over the last 10 years, were willing to go to war in Iraq on the unsubstantiated claims of Weapons of Mass destruction, against the will of the security council of the United Nations. The fact that there were no WMD’s and hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties have occurred and continue to mount in Iraq barely gives the warmongers pause, as they froth an endless stream of inane garbage, about how killing innocent women and children by the hundreds of thousands in a country on the opposite side of the world, is somehow defending freedom and the American / Australian way of life (delete whichever is appropriate, or more accurately, merge the two).
Yet, those same foreign military intervention proponents, cannot muster the enthusiasm to call for so much as a U.N. peacekeeping force, in the face of a bloodthirsty dictator shooting and bombing hundreds of freedom and democracy protesters to death.
Hardly a consistent moral position on the use of military force as international bringer of freedom and democracy.
“The only reason the Iraqi’s have been Saddam free and voting in kibnda free elections is because Saddam was deposed by the West and tried and hung by the Iraqi people.”
Hmm, yes, would you perhaps say that our responsibility to Iraq is burden?
Interesting note about the drugs “CaptainPlanet”. I might also add that having seen some of the US ghettoes first hand there is little doubt in my mind that drug addiction of the poor is used as a political weapon to keep them powerless. It is interesting that the while the Taliban had just about eliminated opium growing from the country prior to our invasion, it is now back to record levels under the US occupation. Was saving the Afghan opium growing industry from the Taliban the real reason for the war?
All our “leaders” are essentially stuffed suits. They’re puppets. The role of the media and academia is to legitimize them. The masses do not rebel unless they’re organized and financed. Hosni Mubarak committed horrendous crimes, but we have to ask, who benefits from his overthrow? It is not the Egyptian people. The US was not in complete control of Mubarak, and this became evident when Mubarak by his refusal to provide troops for Iraq/Afghanistan. It has also been reported that he refused to back an Arab coalition against Iran. Apparently he was getting too friendly with Russia and China.
Your article was good Guy, loved the humour and you profiled excellent points, but it’s still the US in control and they are still behind the whole shabang, but only this time through stealth..ie,facebook, internet, twitter and the texting….who needs hobnailed boots.
[1]- Egypt protests: secret US document discloses support for protesters- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289698/Egypt-protests-secret-US-document-discloses-support-for-protesters.html
[2]- Busted: America behind uprising in Egypt- http://www.terminalx.org/2011/02/busted-america-behind-uprising-in-egypt.html#axzz1EHH020ne
All our “leaders” are essentially stuffed suits. They’re puppets. The role of the media and academia is to legitimize them. The masses do not rebel unless they’re organized and financed. Hosni Mubarak committed horrendous crimes, but we have to ask, who benefits from his overthrow? It is not the Egyptian people. The US was not in complete control of Mubarak, and this became evident when Mubarak by his refusal to provide troops for Iraq/Afghanistan. It has also been reported that he refused to back an Arab coalition against Iran. Apparently he was getting too friendly with Russia and China.
Your article was good Guy, loved the humour and you profiled excellent points, but it’s still the US in control and they are still behind the whole shabang, but only this time through stealth..ie,facebook, internet, twitter and the texting….who needs hobnailed boots.
[1]- Egypt protests: secret US document discloses support for protesters- .telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289698/Egypt-protests-secret-US-document-discloses-support-for-protesters.html
[2]- Busted: America behind uprising in Egypt- terminalx.org/2011/02/busted-america-behind-uprising-in-egypt.html#axzz1EHH020ne
Just add the Http and other necessaries to access the links.
Captain Planet; flimsiest of evidence? Jeezus. I assume you’re a 911 Truther then.
As noted by others, there is no evidence to suggest that ther would have been a popular uprising in Iraq along the lines of what has occurred in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain and now Libya. Any uprising in Iraq would’ve likely come from the Kurds or the Shi’ites and hence a Sunni dominated Republican Guard would have had few qualms in brutally repressing it, as they did in 1988 (with the Kurds) and in 1991 (with the Shi’ites)
There’s no sign of an uprising in Syria, a nation which shares the B’aathist ideology with the former Iraqi regime and is just as repressive towards it’s citizens.
It’s hard to control the world without a good, solid supply of untraceable funding.
Does anyone really doubt that the CIA meddles constantly with the world’s power structure?
They effectively got rid of the Whitlam government in this country, for crying out loud. Have a read of John Pilger’s “A Secret Country” for an outstanding, thoroughly researched and referenced, treatise that all but proves CIA complicity in the downfall of Australia’s first Labor government in 30 years. Khemlani himself and almost everybody else involved in the whole sordid series of carefully orchestrated scandals, were “former” CIA operatives. It’s very well documented, but people just don’t want to hear it.
Similar evidence exists to support widespread CIA involvement in the attempted or successful establishment of supportive regimes in Iran, Guatemala, Cuba, Congo, Iraq, Brazil, Ghana, Chile, Afghanistan, Argentina, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, Angola, the Philippines, Venezuala, and Haiti, to name just a few.
Of course, you can choose to believe that the CIA just gather information, if you want.
The repeated statements from the White House about how American Foreign Policy has, as it’s major and overriding aim, furthering the interests of the USA abroad, ought to be a bit of a clue.
Drug money and reliable energy supplies go a long way towards furthering American foreign interventionism. Hence Afghanistan and Iraq. It was so transparent, that “No War For Oil” was painted on just about every second railway bridge in the free world.
My point is that if the motivation behind the invasions (and continuing occupations!) of Iraq and Afghanistan were altruistic concerns about human rights and democracy, It is hard indeed to understand - Why the Military inaction in Libya? Or Somalia, Morocco, Djibouti, Zimbabwe, or dozens of others just as oppressive and undemocratic, without even looking outside Africa?
The Iraq invasion was a war crime, Howard is a war criminal, the Australian troops who carried out the “turkey shoot” in the western desert, are mercenary war criminals and our “side” led by the US are the real 21st century terrorists who think so little of life that they are prepared to kill others so that their masters can steal another countries resources.
Makes ya proud of our boys eh?
It is hard to fight false propaganda.
W believed that Milosevic was a tyrant so we hated him to bits and all the Serbs with him. Milosevic was not even a Serb and NONE of the Serbian leaders were Serbs. But we justified the war in the Balkans. We were happy watching the destruction of one of the best places on our planet. We were happy that instead of Christian Serbia, two Muslim countries were created. Don’t take me wrong: nothing wrong with any Muslim country. But the people of Kosovo, Bosnia and Croatia go to bed hungry like NEVER before in the history of the very rich Balkans.
We hated the tyrant of Iraq. We believed that one madman can destroy the whole United Staes with Brazil, Mexico, Canada and Australia. He did not even have one gram of ammunition. Now, all the leaders of the time and the ‘architects’ of the genocide of Iraqi civilians have admitted that they either got it wrong or lied. But we were happy to know that over a million people must have been killed to get rid of ONE stupid tyrant.
We are made to believe that the biggest threat to our peace loving nations is Iran. We are getting ready to kill all those pesky civilians to get rid of ONE person we do hate; Ahmadinejad.
With all those ‘spontaneous’ well prepared demonstrations in the Middle East we hate those cruel leaders who:
DARED to have established islamic banks, thus threatening our honest and prudent banks of the West.
The current propaganda against Sharia Law and ‘mistreatment’ of Islamic Arab women (in Tunesia????) is beyond limits of audacity.
Islamic banks in Iran, Morocco, Bahrain, Tunesia, even Egypt do not allow to invest in idustries related to prostitution, pornography, drug trafficking, pedophilia, alcohol…
These prudent banks have been doing very well since 2007 or so. Too well. And they are spreading.
Yes, the people in a free market economy should feel threatened. Down with the tyrants.
Just wondering why NO ONE is protesting against the greedy banks?
How ironic that Allende in Chile met his end on 9/11.Another nice little effort from the CIA.
BTW how does the Culinary Institute of America handle having the garbage confused with the cooking?
What hasn’t been mentioned is the powerlessness of the American people to roll back the control/influence the Military Industrial Complex has over that country.Eisenhower warned against it in his final or close to final speech to the American people. At last count MilitaryIndustrialComplex.com has recorded a total of 15,238 publicly-reported defense contracts. To date, that is an average of $3,653 for each member of the US citizenry (311,991,884 - Census.gov - 02/01/11).The setup in America is insidious and the rest of the world has to suffer for it,unfortunately we fell into lock step with them in the later Menzies years and only briefly questioned them during the Whitlam years,how dare we ask to inspect Pine Gap etc!
Unfortunately the American Democracy is only a pale shadow of what it purports to be, sad really,that people buy it as the real deal.
The neo-con’s confrontational catastrophe confronted…..completely confounded criminals.
Is anyone really surprised that these intellectually & morally corrupt bastards have shot off both their feet?
The CIA missed the fall of the Soviet Union…and the fall of Egypt…and the Middle East…..what a team.
Why don’t we sell Oz to China as its most southern province…it’d save time
Dr Harvey M Tarvydas
Top stuff Guy and great stimulus clearly.
But all we can do is talk (write) as we must as its good for us.
It has little effect on the hypocrites whatever their colour or accent as they are (with much practice) addicted to sucking their own cock’s which physically seriously limits ones view of the world and frequently mentally interferes with one’s ability to think straight.
What chance can you have with such creatures you’d have more chance on the streets of Libya with a list of agreed human values.
Dr Harvey M Tarvydas
@TWOBOB Posted Tuesday, 22 February 2011 at 4:33 pm
In the history of the last half century and a bit that my two blue eyes have been watching my lungs breathe and other things worldwide I have noticed that Western Terrorism during many of its murderous period makes those Iraq issues small fry (in murder terms) and leaves those terrorist that we can’t stop going on about looking like amateurs.
the commenters looking back to the 1991 uprising in iraq have missed the most obvious historical facts - that uprising itself was significantly engineered by the US, which then backed out of its guarantee to support the kurds. because it was sectarian in nature it never won the will of the people - many sunnis approved of the way it was suppressed.
the current uprisings arent being manipulated - they are popular, multi-ethnic, mass movements, which quickly draw elements of the military to their side. once that happens, dictatorships crumble - as do pseudo-democracies. libya was as tightly locked down as iraq - under these circumstances, they would have been rocked in the same way
Why silence? Its a very interesting question you raise Rundle, cheers. Is it too wild to suggest that some might be hoping this uprising does fail?
I agree with many comments above, but would like to say:
1. A — fghanistan was not about poppies, it was about 3000 murdered US citizens. Afgh had numerous repeated warnings by the UN about the harboring of t — errorists, and they were under sanction at the time. War was ‘justified’ in this instance (if indeed it ever can be justified). That the war has, in many opinions, failed and has actually led to a resurgence of the T — aliban is a separate issue.
2. John Howard is no friend of mine but he was not complicit in the deception regarding Iraq. He was presented with the false dossier that was compiled by the Poms and shopped around by the US. Hoodwinked, yes. Criminal, no.
You ain’t seen nothing yet.
If the Saudi people rise up against their government the response from Western media and governments will be fascinating!
Beat me too it Guy, but can I add a recount of one sickening act? When Paul Wolfowitz went to Iraq, post invasion, and stood over the mass graves of southern Shi’ites and pronounced Saddam a monster for killing them, he discreety failed to mention how G. Bush Snr had invited them to revolt against the regime with a promise to support them, but then abandoned them.
The utter hypocracy appalls me still.
“to it” of course.
You really think its only the right not reporting on it, maybe you can show me were the left are shouting fron the rooftops as they did with Egypt.
If John Howard was ‘hoodwinked’ by the sneaky Brits and Yanks he is criminally stupid. Millions of Australian, American and British citizens knew that they were being fed lies and misinformation, but poor Johnny Howard had no choice but to be sucked in?
Give me a break.
“libya was as tightly locked down as iraq”
Considering Iraq was devastated by years of sanctions, I think it might be safe to say that Gaddafi’s regime was in a stronger position two weeks ago than Saddam’s Iraq two weeks before the US invasion.
Yes, Daniel, that is a fair point. But being one of the Brits to which you refer, my impression from over there is that what we knew wasn’t being reported elsewhere - especially in US and Aus. So, yeah, maybe criminally stupid. I still don’t think complicit in deception.
Andrew 36, Perhaps if you looked at what the “Left” are saying, you might find a much more reasoned and in depth debate of the situation than you will get from the “Right”. You should be able to find some “Left” discussion out there if you try really hard.
So Gaddafi is not a criminal if he bombs his own people? He has stated this morning that he will die a martyr, how many of his own people will he take with him?
I’madouchebag in Iran will be shitting himself right now, he has a youthful country hungry for freedom. Once the self proclaimed King of the Arbs has gone…next stop Tehran! They are noticeably quiet over there.
As for the ‘Left’ in any discussion: The eyes are open, the mouth moves, but Mr Brain has long since departed!
While watching the Egyptian uprising build upon the apparent success of the same in Tunisia I had an overwhelming impression of dejavu in that it resembled to me then, and even more so now, the popular uprisings the ended the Soviet bloc enmasse. 50 odd years of “fighting the commies” brought to an end by people power. It does make one wonder why so much money and so many lives have been wasted in “finding” wars to fight in order for us to feel “secure” when really all we may have had to do is mind our own business and actually lead by example.
Michael, Im prietty sure you can find some discussion from the right as well if you try hard. My point is that to say the right is quiet and the left are the only ones commenting is rubbish. In fact compared with all the stuff about egypt everyone has been quiet. The fact is both sides of the political agenda have alot to be ashamed of when it comes to supporting despots and dictators in the middle east. By more in depth comments from the left you mean the usual drivel about it all been the USA’s fault and how the world is all black and white and if the USA hadnt atttacked iraq the world (middle east) would be a perfect place, then your proberly right.
Andrew, thank you for responding. Because the “Left” do not have access to the commercial media or the ABC, we have to go looking for their response. It will be found in a multitude of blogs but also in the Green left Weekly, the weekly organ of the largest Socialist group in Australia, but, as well, there will be, in every state capital city this friday, a coming together of concerned Australians demonstrating in support of the ordinary Libyan people and condemning attacks on the civilian population. This will surprisingly, not attract a lot of commercial media interest. Perhaps if right wing groups, such as the Liberals, ALP etc were to organise or join in these demonstrations, we could connect to those parts of the Australian community that do not not normally inform themselves about these sorts of issues and perhaps start a national debate about a national response.
Not sure if it’s worth responding to the strangled gurgles of lunar right ideologues, but….
“They tried it, when the American’s imposed a no-fly zone after they withdrew from Iraqi territory, and the Iraqi military blew the marsh dwellers in the South back into the stone age with artillery and armoured units.”
Ummm….. actually the Americans strongly encouraged an uprising and promised support, then sat by while Saddam’s forces butchered the people of the south….
@CAPTAIN PLANET 3:04 pm
I was just going to make the point about what happens if the Iraqis start an uprising, how will the lunar right respond (Michael James, feel free to provide a foretaste), when I read your cogent point that the uprising has been going on for a long time. I would however disagree that the Shia/Sunni divide is relevant - like Nth Ireland, more a product of the machinations of an occupying power (if you don’t agree, go across to County Donegal and see Catholics and Protestants living together peacefully).
Sobering also that, Bradley Manning aside, it seems no US - or Australian - service personnel or mercenary (sorry, ‘contractor’) has done anything meaningful to stop their involvement in the war.
@JONOMATT 3:40 pm
“As noted by others, there is no evidence to suggest that ther would have been a popular uprising in Iraq along the lines of what has occurred in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain and now Libya.”
Well, there was no evidence to suggest that there was going to be a popular uprising in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain or Libya! Of course, I fully anticipate the media and ‘commentators’ to start telling us how inevitable it was. But to base an invasion on a lack of evidence for an uprising and on false evidence of WMD seems a little backward and circular to say the least.
And “There’s no sign of an uprising in Syria, a nation which shares the B’aathist ideology with the former Iraqi regime and is just as repressive towards it’s citizens.” Maybe you’re not reading widely enough.
@MLF 10:18 pm
Half the world (or more) was openly saying that the dossiers and other evidence were dodgy. If the Australian PM really believed what was an obvious falsehood he’d have to be braindead. The Rodent is many things, but not braindead. He is culpable, not deceived.
All commenters should read Rena Zurawell’s piece. She/He is close to the tuth.
What we see unfolding in the Middle East is the result of the concerted efforts of the International Banking Cabal that controls all the world’s Security and Intelligence Agencies. It is through the Intelligence Agencies that every sceric of their dirty-work is accomplished.
The Left/Right dictum is a hoax and a convenient method of divide and conquer. They always own both sides of the argument so they always own the outcome.
I know our much cherished little idols of carreer and vocation are dependent on these sacred cows, but before we can move forward we have to learn to dump it.
The best thing Australians can do is demand that our governments cut off all support for those states that have done the most to fuel violence in the Middle East, Latin America, Africa and elsewhere - violence of the military kind as well as the economic kind under the auspices of the IMF, the WTO and the World Bank. I refer of course to the good old USA and its partner (Or is that master?) in the Middle East, Israel. Of course we need not deliberately antagonize the monster which could be dangerous but instead simply withhold our support. We could start by demanding the immediate withdrawal of our presence in Afghanistan and by no longer buying military hardware from them.
This may not help resolve the current problems of the people of the Arab world but it may could help hasten the end of the already crumbling empire that has caused them so much suffering.
Howard as has been said here was either ignorant or criminal in going along with the invasion of Iraq but we should not just condemn him. Would a Labor government if it were in power at the time have been any different? Our current Labor leadership has the same urge to follow the American line as have all its predecessors in the last decade or two. Witness Guillards condemnation of the Wikileaks exposures for instance.
Howard & Downer should face criminal charges for supporting the torture of Australian citizens.
Slueth
With all the depressing news today I needed a laugh, and you have provided it. Thanks!
Andrew Bolt’s effort today was sickening.
When will people like him realise that it is futile to side with the over-dog?
America is to be pitied, and if it weren’t for the cost in human life, ignored. Ever since-and including Vietnam-WWII, she has had a nasty string of defeats. Why? I hear you ask. Because the over-dog colonels and dictators control the mineral wealth of the Middle East, Afghanistan and Latin America. Whereas for the past sixty-six years, in fact, anyone who has gone in against the under-dog has been doomed to ultimate failure. Hell, America will probably side with Kim Jong il when North Korea goes up the spout.
I’m just sick to death of Australians being slaughtered on the alter of this giant third world nation.
Kevin - I’d be really interested to know why John Howard hasn’t been brought up on charges, why he has not been required to face a Senate Committee, or similar. Anyone know why? Why haven’t the Greens at least called for it?
Bob - ok, so half the world were talking about the dodgy dossier. Yes they were in 2003, in the final lead up to war, on the ‘announcement’ of war, on the commencement of the war, during the war and after it ended. But half the world were not talking about it in 2002.
I acknowledge that there is more to the deception than the dossier, but this was the primary tool used to ‘justify’ the war.
The fact remains that the Aus intelligence services reviewed the raw data and came up with the same conclusion as the UK service. Their conclusion was that Iraq has WMD but not enough to pose a threat. It was the UK government that falsified the dossier. It wasn’t the US and it wasn’t Aus, although there was a clever game of ‘little buddy’ played by the US to get the UK to do its will. It was Tony Blair and his Comms Director.
I’m really not interested in defending John Howard. My main point in my first post was that the deception was carried out by the UK and US, Blair and Bush. I take your points on board, and have indeed done further reading about what was going on locally in 2003 in the lead-up to war. But I stand by my view.
Democratic Western leaders seem to be exempt from having to explain themselves at this point in time. They only comes in to assist when there’s something of value in it for them.
Oil.
The Brit’s are by nature, invaders. God save the rest of us.
@Guy, the ideological conservatives have been dumbed into silence because they can’t find a way to spin these events as some sort of victory for their ideology.
They made the mistake early on of siding against the Egyptian people in deposing their dictator, so now it’s time to lose interest, take their amnesia pills, and drag the focus back to domestic issues until foreign policy settles back down to ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’ again.
As for the question of whether Saddam would have fallen as a domino in the current revolutions if he had not been deposed, I would venture yes, and my reasoning (as trite as it may have become) is due to what the media are calling the “Facebook and Twitter” revolutions.
But more than Facebook and Twitter, it’s the recent connectivity of these once isolated people (especially the youth) via new communication technologies that has allowed them to share their suffering and find solidarity with the outside world. Bravery is contagious.
Jeebus, I don’t disagree with your insight above. But you could also say the ‘progressives’ are schtum because there is no real criticism that can be directed to the US on this one, no one can be said to be ‘propping up’ a dictator, there’s no ‘CIA involvement’. The ‘immoral west’ (as we are more frequently being referred to by our own citizens) really don’t have a hand in this one at all - because this really is a case of good guys/ bad guys.
SOSSE
nicely put.
Also not sure who made the comment about David Cameron and the 8 Heads but not sure if he had slaughtered weopons industry executives or been socialising with them.
I hope I am not misunderstanding you’re above comment, but “finding solidarity with the outside world and Bravery is contagious” is a very big call when when you measure it all up against the back-drop of US skull-duggery and political interference in another nations business….within this context I would struggle to agree with you, because if I have n’t misunderstood you, then you have totally missed the point.
MLF,
“The ‘immoral west’ (as we are more frequently being referred to by our own citizens) really don’t have a hand in this one at all - because this really is a case of good guys/ bad guys.”
Not strictly true. The West has given the regime some legitimacy to facilitate the interests of their oil and military industries if not others. French aircraft being used against the people and at least one mention of a Chanook helicopter flying over the crowds come to mind and good old Tony Blair was quite happy to cosy up to Gaddafi to help secure access to Libya’s oil.
Not quite the same level of involvement as with Mubarak and other regimes in the area now taking it on the chin from their citizens, but still…
Mmmm…. seems like the lunar Right’s nightmare is continuing. Protests appear to have “spread” to Iraq where “security forces” are killing people and arresting media. That can’t be right, they’ve already got democracy don’t they?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/9408087.stm
1001Street protests are planned in a number of Arab countries later on Friday. In Iraq, two people are reported to have been killed and 20 wounded in clashes between demonstrators and security forces in the town of Hawija, north of Baghdad. Rallies are taking place in a number of Iraqi cities against corruption and a lack of basic services.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12576613
Baghdad has been virtually locked down, with the authorities banning traffic in the city centre and deploying several thousand soldiers on the streets.
Michael James, could you please provide us with the Pravda view?
KEVIN HERBERT: “”Why don’t we sell Oz to China as its most southern province…it’d save time”“
Because America already purchased us at a bargain rate at about the end of WWII.
CAPTAIN PLANET: Certainly the drug trade is important to America, and must be protected at any price. However, a much greater prize would be the vast mineral wealth of Afghanistan. The English heard about it, and tried to get in first. They were beaten by the Afghanis. The Russians heard the same story; the Afghanis got rid of them. Now the Americans are onto the same story; the Afghanis aren’t making it any easier for them than they did for the Brits and the Russians.
The thing I’d love to know is how the Americans managed to introduce the drug trade into Afghanistan in an attempt to weaken the opposition, (the locals) while the Russians were in power?
MODERATOR: WTF, WTF, WTF?
I’m almost afraid to post Venise;- are our pearls of wisdom disappearing into the ether?
Maybe nothing disappeared? I wuz hoping things were better, but download (is that whatiz called?) is taking so long that if you pop back tomorrow it should have arrived??
________________________
“1) A — fghanistan was not about poppies, it was about 3000 murdered US citizens. Afgh had numerous repeated warnings by the UN about the harboring of t — errorists, and they were under sanction at the time. War was ‘justified’ in this instance (if indeed it ever can be justified). That the war has, in many opinions, failed and has actually led to a resurgence of the T — aliban is a separate issue.
Ahhh MLF we’s havin our first tiff!!
Afghanistan, and I know it quite well,- has been interfered with for what? a coupla hundred years? It is such a handy little strategic place, and at any one time the warlords are happy for external powers to eliminate their opposition, and get mightily pissed if they are the target.
The warlords tolerate the West. They almost indulge it. It will withdraw-as the current invaders undoubtedly will,-and they’ll wait for the next lot.
Don’t give me the patronising West rationale of repeated warnings about harbouring terrorists.
Define terrorist…Now THAT’S debatable.
Invasion is not bloody justified! Once we go down that path we will find a ‘justification’ for doing whatever we want.
What is it with the damn West? What in the hell gives ‘the West’ the right to dictate to other countries?
White/might/right? God We are so fecking patronising!
The West WILL fail, because they should not be there. In fact, as with Iraq, all that is left is a face saving exercise.
As for Howard? Strewth MLF have you been on the woojoo juice?
He knew exactly what he was doing!
“If John Howard was ‘hoodwinked’ by the sneaky Brits and Yanks he is criminally stupid. Millions of Australian, American and British citizens knew that they were being fed lies and misinformation, but poor Johnny Howard had no choice but to be sucked in?”
That’ll do nicely!
‘False dossier’ or not, you surely don’t believe that had Howard known that, his decision would have been any different?
_____________________
“The Brit’s are by nature, invaders. “
Don’t be daft Lizzy. You got the tense wrong. The Brits nowadays have to wait and see what the Americans decide for them. Australia does the same.
________________________
I keep going back over the posts…whoever asked why we’ve had no Inquiry over the Iraq Invasion:
Because this is Australia.
Because we blame everyone else but ourselves.
……the immoral West… yes, I have to agree. Latter day ‘wars’ (in partic), have been justified on the most spurious grounds that are inevitably shown to be false.
And of course masses who die at the hands of despots, are irrelevant when there is a self-interest ‘war’ to be fought.
Good evening, Elan.
I don’t know about that tiff… lets see how we get on.
Now, I’m not a 9/11 truther in a fanatic sense, but I have read the Commission report several times and my opinion, like many thousands of others, is that there are clearly errors and omissions from the official account. MASSIVE ones in fact.
That aside, I watched on as 3000 people died that day. The country was under sanction. 9/11 led to Afganistan in an immediate and direct way. (Note that I put ‘justified’ in marks - the philosophical question about justification for war I’d gladly go into but it would probably bore the pants off everyone else.)
Terrorism as you know has no universal definition, but those that flew airliners into WTC I imagine fit under the general umbrella.
Howard. No, I don’t think he would have done anything differently had he known. I concede. I don’t know if my position here is based on my inability to cross the line into territory where Australian leaders are as bad as the rest of them, or my belief that the US and UK really don’t respect Aus that much to include them in their plans. Maybe its a combination of the two. We were always going to be involved, but I will always hold that it was the US&UK’s war.
It was me who asked about an inquiry. At least the Poms had the balls to put Blair in the firing line. Twice. Why has no-one done so here. There must be a real reason. All those objectors to war - where are you/they now?
How do you feel about the intervention in Libya?
Hi MLF,
911 Truther. Many would be loathe to betray their ignorance, but I freely admit I googled to make sure I had it right.
Fanatical no; but as an ex military air traffic controller ( before I did law), some ‘facts’ are questionable, including who exactly IS responsible for those deaths.
‘Justification’ can be arrived at by the same methodology that I’m alluding to. Sorry but” “that aside” is dismissive of something that might-might have a great bearing on the definition of ‘terrorist’, and as I said;-justification.
That incident has certainly provided the most fertile fodder for war against the Moslem world.
(I was brought up as a Christan btw;-Ma was a Catholic! All bollocks as far as I’m concerned. I turned against religion of ANY kind when I was chucked out of the Brownies for saying “Oh God it’s hot” when we went on a country trek. No kidding-banished for blasphemy. Pillocks!)
(Oh, and I don’t give a Gnu’s gonads WHO rolls their eyes with the ‘not another conspiracy theorist’ rationale. I’m buggered if I’ll be ever told to ‘go with the flow’. Each to his own).
I’m distracted MLF. The shame of it is that I want to watch Miss Marple….
Back domani. The rest needs further thought, and a proper response.
Enjoy Marple. I look forward to more.
Incidentally, if someone above had posted that 9/11 was a set up to get into Af. for whatever pretense, I probably would not have commented at all. Because that idea is not something that I would necessarily feel the necessity to argue against. If you get me. It’s way out of my bounds of knowledge and understanding, I admit - but I don’t think it’s a completely incomprehensible proposition.
Venise - you might want to check your history book about the Russia/Af war. The Afghanis didn’t “get rid of the Russians” without the help of the US.
Imagine what Af. would look like now if the US didn’t assist? Anyway, I digress.
Why didn’t the yanks just take the ‘vast mineral wealth’ while they were there?
Aren’t we anyway misguided in the nature of the Af. war?
US went in to get Al-Q & OBL, to remove all terror activity from Af. and to oust the T — aliban.
They did the 4th one pretty quickly, and ‘democracy’ was established. They s — crewed up 1,2&3. And since 2004, the T — aliban have been fighting an aggressive guerilla war and killing Af. citizens. When was the last time any great power won a guerilla war? By its nature, its not possible: guerillas win by not losing, and its got little to do with military might. The US are currently trying, or say they are trying, to establish security in Af. so they can leave. The T — aliban are making that impossible. The Tal have nothing to lose.
I said I’d return.
“Imagine what Af. would look like now if the US didn’t assist?”
You have to wonder don’t you?
“US went in to get Al-Q & OBL, to remove all terror activity from Af. and to oust the T — aliban.”
‘Went in’ ? They invaded Af…..ghanistan. With the agreement of their dead man walking Karzai.
They were never going to ‘get’ Bin Laden.
And Al Qaeda is an title spawned by the US.
“The US are currently trying, or say they are trying, to establish security in Af. so they can leave.”
How very noble.
AFGHAN’S. Afghani is currency.
______________________________________
Libya? I don’t ever read newspapers nor waste my time listening to the vacuous verbal diarrhoea of the self-centred Right.
ALL articles nowadays are not reportage of facts; they are opinions. It was always the case, but today it’s an art form.
Thus, I have no idea how those on the Right are handling the Libyan……spot of bother, and I don’t much care. They are the Right after all.
I always hold out for more content from the Left,-that is when I can detect their existence. They usually disappoint.
Freedom comes at the cost of many lives-that seems always to be the price. Personally my respect is massive for those who know that cost, and still proceed.
‘People Power’ is omnipotent. I am a huge fan of it! Sadly it is used far less than it should be, because it is inherent in the nature of man nowadays (particularly in the West) to look out for himself.
John Howard took that divide and rule policy and played it to the hilt. He did it because we let him do it.
IF they stop, Gaddafi will strengthen. If the continue, he WILL fall.
Good.
(I am far less interested in the opinion of the US/UK/and any other administration that has a vested interest in getting the result that suits their strategic interests)
For some reason I let the above bolded slip out of sync. I intended to stop at “Good”, but found it lurking below that.
Being very heavily involved in an issue currently that is draining my damned brainpower considerably,-I can’t remember whether I wrote it for Afghanistan or Libya!
It will do for both.
ELAN: I’ve just written a couple of suggestions at FD re the royal nuptials.
I didn’t-or wasn’t intending to suggest the Afghan war was about drugs, per se. I was attempting to make the point that wherever and whenever the Americans decide to save a country for democracy the drug trade flourishes.
I was most interested to read/watch, etc the Libyan people trying to reject Western help/intervention in their country. Poor b@st.ards. Even from here I can detect the giant Galaxys thundering down airport runways and laden to the gills with food, medicines and war materiéls.
“”Venise Alstergren
Posted Tuesday, 1 March 2011 at 6:55 pm | Permalink
Your comment is awaiting moderation. (My mistake, a word became a website)
“”ELAN: I’ve just written a couple of suggestions at FD re the royal nuptials.
I didn’t-or wasn’t intending to suggest the Afghan war was about drugs, per se. I was attempting to make the point that wherever and whenever the Americans decide to save a country for democracy the drug trade flourishes.
I was most interested to read/watch, etc the Libyan people trying to reject Western help/intervention in their country. Poor bet.ards. Even from here I can detect the giant Galaxys thundering down airport runways and laden to the gills with food, medicines and war materiéls.”“
MLF: “”Why didn’t the yanks just take the ‘vast mineral wealth’ while they were there?”” I believe BHP had already pegged out huge leases, ditto Conzinc. Also I think the Americans regard Afghanistan as closer to our (Oz’s) sphere of influence than their own. Why risk the ire of the Chinese for being overly aggressive? Anyway, when you get right down to it, we are a global economy and the US would have vast share holdings in both of these companies-and more.
Another point to consider is America’s primary concern is with oil, and I don’t know which specific minerals Afghanistan is loaded with. But the terrain is hostile to prospective mining companies. Especially ones outright owned by the USA. Finally, just over the border in Pakistan, lies the real threat to anyone going in via the giant enterprise road. Pakistan is the real location for all the Taliban terrorist fighters. WTF should the Taliban risk their lives by actually living in Afghanistan when a short helicopter flight is all it takes to get there from Pakistan?
These are just a couple of random answers to your question. I admit my thoughts to be unsubstantiated and without scientific research. But I do know that way back then/when an awful lot of people were actively engaged in the mineral search. And I’m not prepared to tell you how far back ‘when’ all this was area was consumed with the desire to find those motherloads.
It’s time for me to eat something.