Tony Abbott’s struggle with the truth
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The best spin I’ve seen about Tony Abbott’s disastrous 7.30 Report interview is the fact he’s willing to admit he lies reflects a commendable honesty, much better than most politicians who lie without ever acknowledging it. Abbott has boldly broken down the fourth wall of politics, turning to the audience and pointed out that he’s just working to a script, not actually saying what he means. In short, Abbott is authentic and honest because he admits you can’t believe him. Nice. The “all politicians lie” theme is a distraction — especially given Abbott’s claim a script is a guarantee he’s not lying hardly stands up to the reality that politicians deceive a whole lot more when making speeches than when answering questions. All politicians might lie, but prime ministers are held to a different standard. Like treasurers, their words have to be carefully chosen. They speak with the authority of national leadership, and their words have impact — economic and financial impact, for starters, but impact even beyond that. The idea that any words not uttered in the course of a scripted speech — does that include ad libs in speeches? — come with an asterisk can’t apply in that role. But Abbott’s more pointed problem is that twice in the space of four days he has been subjected to mild pressure by journalists and both times he has lost control. Talking on Friday with Neil Mitchell about being rolled by shadow Cabinet over his handout to stay-at-home mums should have elicited “I don’t discuss what happens in shadow Cabinet” — a legitimate answer at which he eventually arrived — but instead he ummed and ahhed and said yes, and no, and maybe. And when grilled by O’Brien on the juxtaposition between insisting he’d have no new taxes, and his paid parental leave levy, instead of emphasising the temporary nature of the levy and the long-term benefits to business of lifting the participation rate and the need for it because Labor had sent the Budget into deep deficit, he decided to confess that when he’s pressured in interviews, sometimes he says things that aren’t true, or goes too far in his statements. Dead set, Tony? We’d never have guessed. Getting carried away in the heat of the moment was also Abbott’s explanation for why he didn’t really mean it when he described climate change science as “crap”, although his climate action policy seems to suggest he was being pretty honest. What would Abbott be like representing Australia in international negotiations? What would he be like dealing with business? It’s not only the media that subjects political leaders to pressure. The other issue is that there is long-term context to Abbott’s remarks. In my follow-up piece today, I refer to John Howard’s remarkable capacity to backflip on beliefs he’d held for decades, but still be perceived by voters as a bloke who stood for what he believed in. I was going to include Abbott in that, as one who had learnt well from his mentor. But the difference is that while most of Howard’s back flips took place over a period of years, Abbott’s take place over weeks, as if by being younger and subject to an ever-faster media cycle, Abbott had accelerated the process. While he took several years to change his mind on parental leave, his reversal from dogged advocate of the Malcolm Turnbull ETS strategy to die-hard opponent happened over a matter of months, and his no-new-taxes promise barely last a few weeks. But Abbott also has long-term form in struggling with the truth in interviews. In 1998, he — commendably — undertook a personal mission to destroy One Nation, partly by funding a disgruntled member, Terry Sharples, in legal action. Trouble was, he later denied to the ABC ever funding Sharples — a blatant lie he was sprung on in 2003. Then there was his curious denial of meeting George Pell during the 2004 election campaign, until Tony Jones jogged his memory and Abbott suddenly recalled that he’d met him the previous week. Other Abbott credibility gaps haven’t been his fault — such as when his “rolled gold” Medicare safety net election promise was overruled by Cabinet (which would appear to disprove the idea that scripted remarks will always be honoured). But the impression remains: when put on the spot by the media, Abbott makes stuff up to get himself out of trouble. Stuff that eventually gets found out. Maybe we’re all so jaded and post-modern now it no longer matters to us. In which case, we should stop lamenting about how “all politicians lie” and look at ourselves instead. |
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251 Comments
I believe that what is outlined here shows a much more serious character flaw than that of a bad temper that is alleged against Rudd.
Thanks to you, we know Abbott wasn’t lying when he said was a liar.
When Tony Abbott said no new taxes, did he say that it was the great moral challenge of our time?
The two most blatent lies I have seen recently..
1 - The Thai Prime Minister saying that the troops were only firing in self-defence.
2 - Rudd saying that he was committed to action on climate change.
The TV coverage (and the excellent article that Crikey pointed us to) show how the Thai military are killing innocents.
And the almost total lack of action (apart from spin and work on the CPRS) proves that Rudd has never thought of climate change as a serious environmental and economic threat.
And third prize goes to Senator Conroy for saying (with a straight face) that he would not expand the scope of the internet filter.
Firstly, this was said just after Rudd had backflipped on ETS, childcare, and more. Secondly, Conroy knows perfectly well that the way to expand what is banned is simply to add to the list of what is Refused Classification.
I think Abbott is lying when he does not deny climate change. But sometimes Abbott is just all over the place and changes his mind. As BK points out, Abbott is surprising because he is failing “How to handle the media 101”. There are standard ways our politicians avoid answering questions (Penny Wong on Q&A recently was a good example), so in a way it is refreshing that Abbott ignores his media training.
Now I know that most of you hate The Greens. But surely they deserve praise for being honest about what they want and why
@ Troy C
No, apparently virginity is the great moral issue of our time.
@ Michael
What makes you think Rudd is not committed to action on climate change? Now that the ETS is on hold, he’s no less committed than those “believers”, the Liberal Party.
I don’t agree that it was commendable to go after one nation because Abbott is still talking like one nation. This is a democracy and we don’t have politicians sending others to jail on bogus charges. Don’t forget, Hanson was cleared on appeal and Abbott was a filthy grub then and now.
The problem is this - the authentic Abbott is the man who abused the dying Bernie Banton.
Reply Chris,
Tony Abbott did not say that virginity is the “great moral issue of our time”. If you are implying that he did, then you are not telling us the truth.
Abbotts form guide speaks for himself! If he ever became Prime Minister our international reputation would see us become a laughingstock. Imagine if he lied in an international trade agreement, to international leaders, to the market etc.
The remarkable thing is that Mr Abbott has one of the softest medias of Oppositions Leaders since probably Bob Hawke… and he still blows it, almost daily.
I don’t think he wants the job …
(media) - stray ‘s’ - apologies
Abbott was often the guy Howard sent out to create a distraction or tear things down. He’s skilled in attracting media attention and is a smart cookie, but as Dennis Hopper’s character says of Kurtz in Apocalypse Now: ‘His mind is clear but his soul is mad.’
Abbott doesn’t seem to know if the public sphere is where rational argument takes place or is a political confessional where admitting that you speak with a forked tongue will garner forgiveness. I mean, wtf was he thinking when he blurted that out on 7:30 Reportland? Since his confession wasn’t scripted I suppose, by the logic of his own position, it must not be gospel. He lied about lying?
He’s a neoconservative who hasn’t reached that position as a reaction to his neoliberalism: he seems to have travelled there by other means. When Howard was leader Tony’s stunts could be disciplined, and we punters knew there was someone with a plan capable of pulling the strings in a methodical manner. But Tony is the leader.
Captn Willard: “Method. I don’t see any method at all.”
@ Troy. No, he probably should have said, ‘I was talking crap’.
Interestingly the Oz bleated long and loud the following morning when Red Kerry got Rudd to go a little (and it was a little) off script, but according to their editor (as related to a local ABC talkback caller who called him) the story about Abbott was ‘too late for the deadline’.
Thanks Bernard, nice article. Can’t agree in total: being a woman with a daughter and strong feelings about women’s rights (actually everyones rights but in the case of Abbot we will focus on woman as he doesn’t really rate them as high as men), I really cannot in any small or tiny way like or love him. I actually think he is terribly slimy and, well, that isn’t likeable. I also don’t like blatant liars. ie people who lie for the sake of lying. No reason, just feel like doing it today…don’t worry might not do it tomorrow but oops maybe thats a lie. I don’t run around saying all politicians are liars, mainly because I believe in actions. I’m not happy with many things Rudd has said he will do but hasn’t done. He still (or his party still) believes in doing them he/they just haven’t. Who knows what Abbot and the Coalition believe in? Who knows what we will get? Once you could have at least said they believed in the free market now it is any ones guess what they believe in. I actually wish they would bring back Turnball. He wasn’t politically savvy but it is odd, Abbot, who has been in politics all his life, makes Turnball look savvy.
There are things we know about Abbott, the things we don’t know about Abbott, and the things we don’t know we don’t know … in other words, who knows what the f##k he would do if he got into office. He may not know himself. You can’t go by what he says or doesn’t say or even half says …
reply Delerious,
Bring back Turnbull? No. He lied about the utegate affair.
Chris asked me “What makes you think Rudd is not committed to action on climate change? Now that the ETS is on hold, he’s no less committed than those “believers”, the Liberal Party.”
An ETS or a Carbon Tax is an essential part of any real action on climate change.
But lots of other things need to be done by government as well. And many of these have very long lead times.
For example, if an ETS or Carbon Tax provides a disincentive to car travel, this must be balanced by an improved public transport system.
No matter how much money a government threw at, for example, the Melbourne train service, it would take years to fix. It would take years to bring the tracks and signaling up to scratch, and it takes years to get new trains.
The Rudd Government has failed to even start the major upgrade needed. It has failed to even start reducing the massive subsidiary provided to company cars. And it has continued major road funding.
Now it is easy to think of many other things that a Government that really believed that climate change was an environmental and economic threat would have done. Yet if you look at Rudd’s first, second, and third budgets, I don’t think you can find one thing that comes close to a serious response to climate change.
Even worse, if you look at the solar cell rebate scheme, Rudd changed this so that installing solar cells is now actually BAD for the environment.
Actions speak louder than words (apart from most discussions about politics in Oz). If you look at what Rudd has done (well, not done), then it is clear that to him climate change is just a political problem.
… and imagine the authority he would command in cabinet if he got the Coalition up at the election from the position they were in six months ago … he’d be unstoppable. Everything would be on …
The problem most of our media have had in the last year or so is lack of context. The whine is that Rudd somehow arbitrarily decided to shelve programs without explanation or that programs that were successful were somehow a failure.
The HIP and BER are both successful and did what they were designed to do, but the Australian are still whining on about them as if no reports were ever done.
Like yesterdays dopey non-pie warmer canteen. The child care sector was totally over hauled and we didn’t need to build 220 odd more centres when the ones we have are actually only at 70% of capacity on any given day.
The context that $200 billion was wiped off income seems to have been forgotten, that it was predicted we might get as high as 10% unemployment, as Alan Hawke noted, - no the Australian was caught lying and have been left like shags on a rock so they support that moron Abbott.
The Howard huggers still whine on about Grocery Watch which was killed off by the senate, Coles and Woollies, they whine about Fuel watch likewise killed off by the senate - and they were only web sites.
No mention of two attacks on two countries that didn’t do us any harm.
I think ‘lie’ is a bit strong. I prefer the Peter Wright from MI5 description of being ‘economical with the truth’.
How do you know when either Rudd or Abbott is being EWTT? If you watch closely you’ll find it happens everytime their mouths are moving.
The real question is not whether any particular is a liar, is avoiding the truth, or whatever.
Will they stay true to their espoused principles? Will we get what we voted for? Will we even vote in accordance with our own principles?
Or will we collectively vote in accordance with preconceived notions and predudices, oblivious of the demonstrated fact that some of the candidates have been shown publicly to stand for nothing and change with the wind direction… weathervanes.
For sure, our electorate is largely somnolent and, whether any particular candidate is lying, slippery, stupid, unpredictable or not, will vote for the party that individual voters feel allied to, ie in line with their own perception of social standing and custom.
So, Tony has been caught out lying and, to use his own phrase, is accident prone. This will only register with that very few of his customary voters who are prepared to reconsider their vote. If his vote does not go down, especially in his electorate, then my point will have been made, that nothing the Opposition does has much bearing on the election, only perceptions regarding the Government. A black sheep could well win if Rudd and Co. are on the nose.
Possum would no doubt be able to provide a proper statistical perspective on the electability of black sheep, or otherwise.
Simply fascinating BK.
So lying and not admitting it is “savoir-faire” for the chatting classes but lying and admitting it is vile?
Man made global warming, one of the greatest lies ever perpetrated by mankind is quite acceptable even if it’s a lie.
Denying that it exists, which is clearly the case but accepting that the lie was necessary as Abbott puts it, is vile?
@ Troy
But the Government have no hope of getting either an ETS or a carbon tax up with the current senate. That doesn’t show any lack of commitment from Rudd.
A lot is being done in the area of renewable energy.
Troy C….true, true, true but I did say he wasn’t politically savvy. He got sucker punched by people who were better then him at it. He didn’t get “you shouldn’t blatantly lie” bit. He is a lawyer, a real lawyer and he forgot the camera is always on him. Next time he will know blatant lying (like lawyers do, cause they work on the principal that if they sound like they know what they are talking about others will question there own understanding) isn’t clever.
Michael Wilbur-Ham - good grief how could he change solar cells so they are BAD for the environment?
Many appear to be confusing lying/broken promises with inability to deliver on promises. One can legitimately mark down Kevin Rudd for failing on the ETS — and failing for all the wrong reasons (putting political issues above policy implimentation) and then succumbing to timidity in delaying forever having to deal with it until everyone forgets — or whatever (beats me). But what Tony Abbott does is entirely another thing. I think the turning point for me was in the previous term when Abbott undid himself on live tv again on the ABC, this time Lateline with Tony Jones. He looked at Jones in the eye and blatantly lied about something he did that same day; moments later when he instinctively realised that Jones had documentary evidence (a video clip no less) that he did a 180 degree turn. This was when he denied talking with Cardinal Pell about the then on-going media blowup (about pedophilia in the church I think). You could cast aside whether deception was casual, or “in the heat of moment” and realize it was a way of life with Tony Abbott — utterly coldly calculated.
(The blogs have been running hot since last night, here is one from earlier:)
So a critical difference between Abbott and say Rudd, but also many other politicians, is that while all politicians are forced into being economical with the truth, by and large they would dearly like to be able to deliver on their promises. Abbott has no intention of ever being held to anything he ever says. He has a profound disrespect for any other authority — whether it be the voter, his own party’s wishes, long-term consequences for the country, good or bad policy. I believe he picked this up from the Jesuits (“God’s Marines”) though arguably he joined the Jesuits because it was a convenient philosophy — which, to grossly simplify, is to win whatever the price, so as to impose the only true way — which happens to be his way or the highway. Many are coming to the same realization, with this kind of attitude he should never have become a politician in a democracy. He could have stayed in the Jesuits (even if he had to hold his nose about those pederasts and pedophiles that he found infested the order) where he could have exercised absolute authoritarian control as he rose in the ranks. Luckily it is now certain he can never be PM and his time as leader is on a countdown.
Yes, and if Abbott were to be accidentally elected he would cancel all the renewable energy programs.
Abbott’s problem is that he is a bad liar, which is much more preferential to the cold, pathological lying of Kevin Rudd. Despite Krudd’s many backflips (read lies) in the last few months, anybody who thinks Abbott is liar would do well to remember Krudd’s lies prior to the last election: that his family was evicted days after his father’s funeral, that his father died as a result of medical malpractice, the fake ANZAC Dawn Service etc etc etc.
These are cold, calculating lies that Abbott would never tell.
SHEPHERDMARILYN, in defending Labor, says “No mention of two attacks on two countries that didn’t do us any harm.”
Compare the British Labor Party, which has held several enquiries about what IT did wrong, with the Rudd government which is unwilling to questions what Howard did.
I believe that Howard is a war criminal who should be brought to justice. Rudd’s lack of even holding an enquiry (especially after what has come out recently in the USA and the UK about what really went on) is yet another example of Rudd being almost indistinguishable from a Liberal leader.
I was beginning to think I’d never see any serious examination of Abbott at all! At last an end to the media worship of this figment of a future Prime Minister! He was becoming almost god-like in the Murdoch Press, with their daily glowing pictures and coaching sessions on the BER and phantom news like Julie Gillard perhaps toppling Rudd. Even Kerry O’Brien has begun to apply the blow torch, after “The 7.30 Report” was in danger of becoming more and more like “The Evening Australian”.
But, as Bernard illustrates, the man is a chameleon.
The polls may be declining for Rudd, which is likely to level out soon, but Abbott will never pick up the slack and get the large percentages that are needed to topple Labor, after its gains at the last election, which incidentally gave it a mandate which the Coalition under Abbott has totally ignored, as it opposes every issue Labor attempts to legislate.
Keep up the scrutiny. There’s no reason why Rudd should be the only one in the spotlight in a system which has two crucially important protagonists!
reply Chris,
If Mr. Rudd was committed to action on climate change, he would dissolve both houses of parliament. If he won’t do that for the “great moral challenge”, then when would you have a double dissolution election? The fact that he hasn’t demonstrates his lack of conviction.
What if Abbott is lying about being a liar or in other words he’s always telling the truth.
Given the garbage of so many of his utterances it’s a scary thought that he might actually believe what he says.
Abbott clearly hasn’t got what it takes but he appears to be able to unnerve Rudd with the sheer aggression and simplistic speciousness of his arguments. Under this strategy, the truth never matters - the sound bite for the six o’clock news does. He’s intent on re-engaging the Howard battlers (eg. Allan Jones’s audience) by pandering to ignorance and prejudice of the most ill-informed and easily led of them. It’s a well-worn path and one that could yield results.
Another thing - how long are you people going to keep moaning about the decision to delay the ETS until 2013? The thing Abbott and that dill Joyce so successfully did was to effectively destroy the last vestages of community consensus on the issue - ably assisted by those East Anglian academic dufuses. So suck it up. If you think you’ll do better voting for christine Milne and the Greens don’t come moaning back here when some National Party inbred becomes the next Environment Minister
@ShepherdMarilyn it was stated that the child care sector was totally over hauled and we didn’t need to build 220 odd more centres when the ones we have are actually only at 70% of capacity…
On which planet, pray tell? Very recent enquiry in the Lower Hunter, an area comprising at least 500,000 people or about 5% of Australians, there were precisely two vacant positions, both on the extreme western margin of the survey area. If the purpose of the new centres was twofold, there is much work yet to be done.
One, to reduce the “double drop-off”, one new centre will be constructed at Merewether Primary School, servicing a couple of dozen children daily - perhaps 50. The remainder of the centres are almost entirely double dropoff candidates, so almost nothing has changed or is planned to change.
Two, to make places available for parents to re-enter the workforce. Anybody living in the centre of the survey area now knows that a 30 minute drive west to drop the kid off is the only prospect. “Guess what?”, as Kevin would say. There are precious few jobs out that way, so turn around and drive back east to your new job. Drive. 2 Hours. Daily. In your second car, because the other one is with Dad and the pre-school is only reachable by car. Much more remains to be done.
70% capacity? If only!
reply Damien Anderson,
I might be wrong, but I seem to recall a recent opinion poll showing a majority of Australians want an ETS. I could be wrong - but I do seem to recall it.
“Michael Wilbur-Ham - good grief how could he change solar cells so they are BAD for the environment?”
The Howard scheme to subsidize solar cells was a very expensive way to reduce emissions (the same money put into more cost effective reduction schemes would have reduced emissions by up to ten times the amount).
Rudd continued with the Howard scheme, but this started to cost too much.
So, in a stroke of political genius (used for evil) they came up with the idea of a solar cell being given THREE times the renewable energy certificates as they should. Energy sellers pay for these certificates, and that is what now subsidizes the solar cell scheme.
If an energy seller just used certificates from solar cells, then instead of having to have say 90 units of real savings, they now only have 30 units of real savings (from the solar cells) and 60 units from Rudd’s magic allocation. Thus 60 units of CO2 are emitted that would otherwise have had to be produced by renewable energy.
If you look at the advertising for solar cells by reputable companies, you will notice that it is all about cost savings, and there is no mention of any environmental benefit.
This scheme shows pure Rudd. I’m sure that most people installing solar cells still think that they are doing something good for the environment.
Rudd also knows that the media will not report this much. Firstly, it is not a part of the two party soap opera which distracts from discussing what is really happening. Secondly, as you can see from my attempt at an explanation, it is actually hard to explain.
Even though readers of Crikey are amongst the most politically informed citizens, I’m sure that most of you still thought that Rudd’s solar cell scheme was good for the environment. So this is a good example of how spin really does work.
Forgive me Australia I’ve lied,
My non-scripted bullshit’s been fried,
Sometimes I’m Abbott,
Sometimes a parrot,
Buggered if I’m Jekyll or Hyde.
@Troy
My impression is that people want to hear that the problem’s been fixed and the water won’t be up to their knees at high tide - while they’re driving to work one to a six-cylinder Holden with the air-cond running flat out after filling up with cheap fuel.
I think Bernard has hit the nail on the head that the real problem has been how easy it is to elicit a confession from him. Imagine this guy operating for the resistance in France. Not a single secret would be safe. It is as if his whole being is geared towards confession … oh wait.
Tony Abbott would be the world’s worst negotiator . Can you imagine him representing this country in trade negotiations or on climate change? Well maybe not climate change.
Bernard has summed up this up well. The issue is not so much about do politicians lie. Most grown ups have developed their own bullshit meter to filter out the bits that are “over embellished”. We can also make allowances for when circumstances have changed. Media hyperventilation not withstanding.
Abbotts problem seems to be that he sees every debate/ interview through the prism of the pugilist. That is, he has to walk away a winner and anything goes. Dont concede or take a backward step. He lives in the moment. This is why he is prone to making stuff up on the fly, he has walked away a winner. Only problem is it quite often comes back to bite.
The opposition defence reminds me of the old Fred Dagg line. ” A politician who is honest about his dishonesty can be said to be a man of repute.”
reply Damien,
I’m sure you are right about that. But Krusty Krudd has gone from “delay is denial” and “absolute political cowardice” to “let’s wait and see what other countries do”.
Troy - I agree. KR is certainly not the Great Communicator of the Age.
Abbott now says the Govt is using personal attacks of political destruction over his public admission he is a liar. What the hell does Abbott think he and his attack dogs have been doing to Rudd these last 3 months? So its ok for the monk who is mad and a liar, to kick the PM all over the news media, while blocking Labors major policies in the Senate but to get on National TV and admit he is a serial liar, but please forgive me because if it written down in front of me it will be the truth. Yep those Jesuits sure taught the would be priest a thing or two, wonder just what did make him leave the warmth, or did it become the cold, of mother church’s embrace.
Now the coalition’s court jester Joyce and his apprentice clown Chrissie Pyne both stick up for the confessed liar saying he is simply being ‘honest’ about being a liar and is really a good solid Aussie guy telling it like it is. Trouble is, he isn’t telling it like it is, just the opposite. Aptly named is the monk, MAD.
Why on earth isn’t the supposed political Messiah of the left, the man who destroyed one of the Liberal party’s most successful politicians, John Howard, ripping Abbott to shreds? I mean how incompetent have Rudd’s political advisers become? The leader of the opposition admits that you cant trust anything he says unless its in a speech!!! Are you frigging kidding me? That sounds like Abbott putting a noose around his neck to me. And lets remember this isn’t exactly out of character; Abbott is forced to flip flop because he has no agenda whatsoever. So why one earth is Rudd now looking at a 2PP of 50-50??? It sure aint because of Tony Abbott.
Could Rudd loose the unlosable election???
OH -MY-GOD!!!!!
A politician admits he is not honest at times.
How will I cope? How can I live?
I’ve come over all of a lather. It’s just too much to handle.
P.S. Bernard, I have to admit I wasn’t originally a fan of yours, but I think your articles are getting better and better. Bravo.
The Tone: “The statements that need to be taken absolutely as gospel truth are those carefully prepared scripted remarks.”
But Tone, mate, that wasn’t a carefully prepared scripted remark.
So…, sorry to break it you, but - on your own account of your complex relationship to truth, we can’t even take your carefully prepared scripted remarks seriously.
Abbott went after One Nation because Pauline Hanson was taking core votes away from the Coalition. The Coalition then promptly and successfully adopted One Nation policies.
Finally it has become clear to me. The change is complete. In regard to integrity, personality and appearance, Tony Abbott has morphed into Ratboy.
DAVID Posted Tuesday, 18 May 2010 at 2:46 pm
“wonder just what did make him leave the warmth..(of the Jesuits)”
Apparently it was discomfit that the place (seminary at Manly) was infested with gays and p-dophiles.
We can dislike the likes of Christopher Pyne, Julie Bishop et al. but really they are just doing what all pollies do…to varying degrees of credibility. What we see with Abbott is quite different. Unlike these others (some of whom would probably be fairly moderate if they ever got power), Abbott would be an unrestrained disaster for democracy and government should he get in power. His approach to over-ride the RU486 drug availability despite everything, is just one chilling example.
The world loves an honest liar. The electorate doesn’t.
What are the odds on Labor winning the next election? They’re not big but take them while you can.
There was an element of the catholic confessional in Abbott’s admissions. Admit your sins and you will be forgiven. Ian Macfarlane seemed to be obliquely referring to this today.
However, unfortunately for Abbott, the electorate doesn’t work the same way god does. If you tell them you’re a lying sod they will say thanks for the information and now sod off.
@ oblizzard…great point you make…I have been amazed at his(RUDD) lack of fightback. Someone in his inner circle should convince him to come out swinging.
Abbott went after One Nation, because it was stealing his parties constituency, then his party stole their dogma.
Who was it that said “there are lies ,damn lies and Abbottgospel “oh, I know it was me!
reply David,
When Krusty comes out swinging, red in tooth and claw, it’s rarely pleasant to watch. Those parliamentary scenes, when he ripped into Mr. Turnbull for lying about ute-gate, were very ugly. Far better to leave the attack to the Gillards, Swans and Tanners. They have grace.
@Michael Wilbur-Ham
“Compare the British Labor Party …..” because it British it’s Labour with a ‘U’ old chap
@OBLIZZARD
Could Rudd loose the unlosable election???
Main Entry: loose
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: indefinite, vague
Synonyms: detached, diffuse, disconnected, disordered, ill-defined, imprecise, inaccurate, indistinct, negligent, obscure, rambling, random, remiss
Antonyms: clear, definite, precise, strict
as opposed to:
Main Entry: lose
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: be defeated
Synonyms: be humbled, be outdistanced, be sunk, be taken to cleaners, be the loser, be worsted, come up short, decline, drop, drop a bundle, fall, kiss goodbye, lose out, miss, succumb, suffer defeat, take a beating, take the count, take the heat, yield
Antonyms: achieve, succeed, win
why is it that every second person on this blog can’t spell such a simple and straight forward word? Day after day, post after post gets it wrong and it’s driving me nuts!
And for you to taunt the picky among us by writing “loose the unlosable” is just unbearable! What makes you think that ‘loose’ has two ‘o’s and ‘unlosable’ only has one? Be consistent man, ‘loose and unloosable’ or better still and correctly ‘lose and unlosable’.
@BLOGGERS
Listen to yourselves - all like giggling girlies - thrilled at the prospect that your impostor Rudd may have an opening.
The greatest deceiver this Nation has ever know will not be saved as easily as that.
Enjoy your moments in the sun, the party will soon be over.
Anybody see “Rampant(?) Bull” last night? 7:30? ABC?
About “Tony L’motto”, a punch-drunk pug (punched around the ring one too many times - “coulda been a contender”, but his trainer got caught out, doing something dodgy “on the waterfront”? Missed that bit, what happened there). Loses his memory, and self-control, whenever he sees red (just like “Barney”(?)).
Kept saying “Let me ad hymn, let me ad hymn, I’ll murder d’bum! And stop ringin’ that bell or yule be necks!”
How did it end? Did they reverse his “L’Abbottomy”? Or is it “ongoing”?
How is it that we all seem to have forgotten that the man Costello said he would not put in charge of the economy only beat Turnbull for the leadership by one vote! And now Turnbull is back. Now he does have a good track record for finance and even challenged Costello with lots of ideas for a revision of our tax policy. I wonder what Betfair’s odds are on a Turbull challenge soon.
Lochee
We all cried and embraced when poor Kevin admitted his sins, yet we’ll hang evil Tony for his.
This is Crikey’s independence shining through. Bernard, your article would hold water if you gave it to Rudd/Gillard/Swann/Tanner in the same fashion.
Unfortunately, the spin is gobbled up when it comes from the government. When the other media outlets are critical of the ALP, you expose the spin, but who’s there to expose your spin?
Why aren’t you exposing the other media outlets for spin today, huh? Spin is a very subjective topic.
The funny thing about the ‘confession’ is that Abbott seemed to expect O’Brien to ‘accept’ it in the same way his parish priest would ‘accept’ it. When O’Brien gives every sign of being merciless, and is drawing all kinds of very unflattering inferences from his confession, you can see Abbott’s alarm rapidly rise.
In the end he is gasping for his Time Lord to take him back to where he was ten minutes ago so he could re-run the whole thing less disastrously. But the Time Lord never responds.
Billy Blogs wants to spread the attacks for spin around equally.
BB, there’s nothing to equal the Mad Monk and his efforts, which are far beyond spin. I expect Crikey to have just as much of a good time with any politician who presents as such a soft target. Tony it is at present for a very good reason.
@BILLY BLOGS
Mate don’t look for reason in this den of vipers.
Just enjoy yourself in the knowledge of what could have happened to your intellect if you had been born Left handed
BB
Take John Bennetts as an example
I noted Virginia Trioli’s gushing endorsement of Tony Abbot on ABC news breakfast this morning as a politician who engages with the interviewer and answers their questions. She said how refreshing it is. Pity one must take any answers he gives with a pinch of salt.
@ Tom “why is it that every second person on this blog can’t spell such a simple and straight forward word? Day after day, post after post gets it wrong and it’s driving me nuts!”
As an inveterate grammar/spelling nazi — I am forced to agree….however, most of us write our replies so quickly we tend to make mistakes. Still — when comparing two things it is ‘than’ not ‘then’ for instance (then means subsequent) which seems to be one of the more popular mistakes!
Those mistakes, however, are NOTHING compared to Abbott’s train wreck. A national leader who is an admitted liar, is a liability to a country such as ours. We rely heavily on our imports/exports which requires international credibility. To lose such credibility would damage our ability to negotiate and we aren’t a big enough fish in the international pond to be able to thumb our noses at the world.
Having Abbott at the helm would be disastrous.
Who’d have thought TonyAbbott might be Australia’s first post-modern PM. He wants to prove he tells the truth by admitting he’s a liar.
Tom,
Wow, you just spent 200 words chastising me for a typo without even using one of them to address WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID???? Pathetic.
There are already too many self righteous grammar police trawling the internet perusing their crusade on lax spelling and typos. Some might call them courageous, I call them douchebag’s. The problem with these “douchebags” is by focusing on trivial spelling or grammatical errors (like ‘loose’ for instance) they entirely miss the point of what the grammatical offender actually said, which by the way is the important part. If you want to debate trivial crap like people spelling ‘loose’ instead of lose then why don’t you head over here:
http://www.writingforums.org/
People are actually debating politics in this thread.
By the way:
Main Entry: douchebag
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: Someone who has surpassed the levels of jerk and asshole, however not yet reached fucker or motherfucker. Not to be confused with douche.
Synonyms: Asswipe, Asshat, Assclown, Tool, Goober, LoOser, Frodo Douchebaggins, Meathead, Nimrod, Blockhead, Jerkoff, Power Tool
Antonyms: Stand up guy, nice guy, someone who is here to actually debate the topic and not rant on about trivial spelling mistakes, the anti-douche
I’m fascinated by Tony Abbott’s use of the term ‘gospel truth’. What does it mean?
@ Billy
“We all cried and embraced when poor Kevin admitted his sins, yet we’ll hang evil Tony for his. “
A vast difference between Rudd’s mea culpa over his inability to get his major reforms through a hostile senate and Abbott admitting to ‘inconsistencies of the truth”.
As I watched last night I nearly fainted as Abbott went from attack-dog to snivelling weasel.
And today — the rationalisations! Did anyone catch Barnaby’s response? Am paraphrasing but this should be close …”there’ a difference between what you tell a lover in the heat of passion and what you tell the lady at the grocery checkout”
What? Is he honestly serious? I always thought he was insane — now I know he is.
…and another thing, hypocrisy! Isn’t this the bloke who has spent the last 6 months abusing the PM for his ‘spin’ [with some justification]. Now he tells us we shouldn’t believe him when he speaks spontaneously, but we should when he has made a carefully crafted statement…when he’s spinning that is. What is it about these religious zealots that lets them preach strict morality to the rest of us while they totally ignore it themselves?
Watching Abbott’s fans trying to turn his admission of deceit into a virtue, you understand why they’re the same people who find no flaws with creationism and still think John Howard was honest.
These people are so easily gulled that it reflects poorly on Abbott that even they have to dig to justify his incompetence
Mr. Tony Abbott’s confessor
Must surely advise
That telling these lies
Makes him a serial transgressor.
Shouldn’t he counsel how sinister
Is this worldly goal?
It ‘s risking his soul,
Striving to be Prime Minister.
Please intervene, Monsignor Pell.
Appoint him to Rome,
His natural home.
Save him (and Australia) from hell.
Ian Macfarlane in the SMH:
“What we are seeing from Tony is very much a straight shooter,” he told Sky News, adding that voters should judge politicians on actions not words.
Come again? As opposition leader you do not have the power to act and therefore must be judged by your words.
Since when is the definition of a straight shooter “someone who lies under pressure”?
@ Doug
“What we are seeing from Tony is very much a straight shooter,” he told Sky News, adding that voters should judge politicians on actions not words.”
I saw this interview this morning and nearly wet myself at the ‘juicyness’ of such a rationalisation.
Do the Libs honestly think saying black is only white when it is black, makes any sense at all?
Solution: hook pollies up to a polygraph at every interview (the pollie poly) and show the results in “worm” form on the screen. For radio interviews there could be a prerecorded exclamation of “bulls**t” that chimes in every time a lie leaks from their lips. Would certainly be more entertaining!
@JENAUTHOR
What Libs are saying is that they have had enough of Rudd.
All that remains to be answered is how many of them are there.
As it this moment they total 50%
@JENAUTHOR
What is crystal clear is that most in this forum will be upping their dosage of Prozac between now and election day.
@ JENAUTHOR
“And today — the rationalisations! Did anyone catch Barnaby’s response? Am paraphrasing but this should be close …”there’ a difference between what you tell a lover in the heat of passion and what you tell the lady at the grocery checkout””
Who else has noticed that as Barnaby’s relevance has diminished he is groping for more obscure metaphors. Is it in the desperate hope that he may get the humorous sound bite that will be played on all media outlets. Tony also lapses into this form of communication.
It doesn’t seem to matter how irrelevant the metaphor is, if it can get a laugh it will be repeated and hey presto that’s the new narrative.
Trouble with these guys is they are not as clever with the language as they think they are, people are starting to shake their heads wondering what on earth they are on about.
@Jenauthor
”there’ a difference between what you tell a lover in the heat of passion and what you tell the lady at the grocery checkout”
a) Did you bring the RU486 ?
b) Does Coles do ironing ?
Opposition as rodeo clowns.
Zut Alors, gospel truth = made up fairy tails.
Tony’s Grechian calamity.
@Michael is obvious you have the same level of ethics and honour and self respect as the monk who is mad…Zilch. You merely reaffirm that, each time you write in support of your catholic mate. Smells like you to were an attendee at the same Jesuit outfit as Abbott. Says plenty.
BERNARDK
“The best spin I’ve seen about Tony Abbott’s disastrous 7.30Report interview is the fact he’s willing to admit he lies reflects a commendable honesty.”
Thank you for a wonderfully refreshing look at the man-made disaster called Tony Abbott.
I hope you realise Bernard, that Abbott’s ability to utter, what people euphemistically are referring to “as his honesty”.
This is bull shit. All practising catholics are programmed to ‘confess’ to the point that if they haven’t done any wrong, they make up some crimes-it saves time. Which is as sickening as display of cynicism as Tony Abbott’s ‘truth’.
Which is one of the many reasons I believe Australia needs a ‘devout?’ catholic as a Prime Minister in the same way as we needed to have the Cane Toad plague.
PS: To Tony Abbott. I must congratulate you, within the space of a week you have made me cringe to the point of becoming a shadow. You are cheap and common, and you would reduce the population to your own level. Be gone you traitorous twerp.
I thought it was some of the best television this year, and surely that’s what counts.
The issue is not whether or not politicians lie; as mentioned elsewhere we all filter the bullshit a bit. But Abbott, who is applying for the job of PM at the moment, has said he gets carried away sometimes and starts making things up in the heat of argument. Whether or not other politicians do this is well beside the point; in isolation, Abbott has proven without doubt that he is unfit to lead the country.
Next!
In the third comment on this article I posted that the two most blatent lies I have seen recently were
1 - The Thai Prime Minister saying that the troops were only firing in self-defence.
2 - Rudd saying that he was committed to action on climate change.
I’ve answered a few questions since that post, but I’ve yet to see any rebuttal by a Labor supporter.
It seems to me that all those who are locked into supporting a major party now have to choose between someone who admits that he lies, or someone who can blatantly lie (and have many believe him).
It is interesting. Another rationalisation that they probably don’t dare voice.
Since the Libs think they have a divine right to rule, they probably also think (and this is also, I expect, an example of ‘catholic think’ that comes from the Dark Ages when the church held the licence for all knowledge and learning) that lying and keeping the public in ignorance is an attempt to ‘protect us from ourselves’.
After all — they know they are superior in morality and intellect — just ask them.
Therefore, lies and obfucsations are justified — the average voter obviously understands little of what the truth really means, thus giving them truth will only confuse them. Instead, they should give the voter what we want them to think in any given forum … and if these statements contradict each other?
“Well … you know … ahhh … well Kerry … umm … I mean …. the truth is really the truth all the time … only sometimes … when it is … umm …. scripted “
Michael R James
Posted Tuesday, 18 May 2010 at 2:02 pm
I recall that interview with Tony Jones. Did you see the look on Abbott’s face as the credits were going up. If looks could kill, Jones would’ve slumped back in his chair. i taped it! Still have it somewhere! If shock horror, Abbott wins, Pell will be in the Lodge too! Scary thought!
Tony Abbott will say and do anything on any given day if he thinks it will further his goals - full stop! He’s lied so often, his nose should reach from canberra to Sydney by now! Don’t like him, don’t like his policies or opinions, particularly as they relate to women. I’d adopt the policy with him - be carpeted but never cornered!
Don’t trust him either! He’s a sleaze! Look how he speaks to women! Yuk!
Jenauthor,
I would be interested in your response to my evidence that Rudd has pulled the wool over most people’s eyes over climate change (ie given them the impression of caring and action, whilst in fact doing the opposite).
And, assuming that I’m right in thinking that it was you who, in another thread yesterday, defended the rest of Rudd’s record, what would you say to my view that he has done pretty much exactly the same on the “Education Revolution” and “Health reform”, ie huge spin to create an impression of change whilst doing his best to do nothing and to continue to support most of what Howard put in place.
@Michael Wilbur-Ham Why did he put the CPRS before the Senate twice then? Why don’t you accuse the coalition of lying and being obstructive, or the Greens too? How often did Howard increase the income of pensioners and those on a disability support pension etc - NEVER! except for a pittance in March & October! He also handed more money to the wealthy in the country at our expense - the poor and marginalised! Not to mention…………….
@MWH
Are you still going on about the climate change delay?
If you’d watched many of my, and other’s posts/opinion etc over the past few weeks, you’d know that while Coalition lackies like to term it a backflip … the truth is, there was no other option than to put it back until next parliamentary term (unless the libs reverse their backflip).
Go read Possum Comitatus on the logistics of the option of a) a DD or b) attempting to push through regardless. Whatever the outcome of wither of those options an ETS could not successfully begin before the date Rudd has specified. (His post should still be available on Pollytics — and barring that — go look at Antony Green’s posts on the ABC website.)
So the whole argument is moot.
@ MICHAEL WILBUR-HAM
Do you think the reason no one has replied to your query is that it is not relevant. There has been reams posted within Crikey on the two issues you mentioned. If you think this is just a left wing conspiracy I would invite you to go and have a look at comments critical of the govts backdown on climate change.
This post though is about Tony’s admission that when pressed, if he doesn’t have an answer that suits, he will make one up. This is what you need to think about and how that may play out should he take the next step in his career path.
We all know all pollys can be economical with the truth and are frustrated at their avoidance and obfuscation when pressed on a difficult issue. We dont however expect that they will just blurt something out that is convenient at the time and hope nobody notices that it is bullshit.
The govts backdown on climate change does not fit into this category, be as critical as you like about the process and the policy, you may find many agreeing with you. Tonys behaviour is just bizarre and slightly scary.
@ MWH
I know first hand that the education revolutio is being successfully rolled out. Health is beginning to follow suit.
Are you under 25? Do you, as my son does, expect that in this fast paced internet generation that everything announced should happen yesterday?
Policy commitments take time to process and flow through — that is why the stimulus was phased — what could be done quick, was done quick — the medium term, more slowly delivered, infrastructure … more slowly again. It is what kept our country working. It is called ‘common sense economics’.
is this a good time to repeat George Costanza’s immortal line:
“it’s not a lie, if you BELIEVE it.”
TROY C: “Lets see what other countries do”. Which particular part of the world were you born in? And what sort of shower gave birth to you?
Perhaps you are very young? Man, do a little research. This is the fundamental thing about Australian people. Nothing from Oz is of any value, Oz has ALWAYS been viewed through a prism, by its inhabitants. ‘What will THEY think of us?’ meaning England and then America.
“We have used (your) money to build the tallest building on the planet, bigger than the one in Dubai”. “We have built the biggest football stadium in the southern hemisphere”, (conveniently forgetting that Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo are both South of the Equator). “We have had the greatest percent per capita gold medal tally since Andorra won the international tadpole-finals against Luxembourg in 1920”.
We are both xenophobic and desperately insecure-to the point we have no Australian head of state. (hmm?)
We have heard no coverage on what I would have thought would be the fundamentally germane question to put to the mining industry.
Why, gentlemen, in your rush to condemn Kevin Rudd’s proposed new tax, has no one thought to ask about shipping costs?
You threaten us by saying it will be cheaper to extract ore from Brasil. Really? What about the stability, or the lack of it, in Brasil, and the surrounding countries; countries such as Colombia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador? All good stable countries; guaranteed to keep the peace for Rio Tinto and BHP?
What about shipping costs? Just the same price to ship from Brasil to China and Japan as it is from Oz to the same region?
We are not all mentally challenged. How about you boys give the great unwashed some actual proof, as in facts?
Facts which are unrelated to the media spin and hyperbole-would you like me to spell that, Twiggy Forrest? and downright cant that you lot are spewing forth.
If this doesn’t shine some light on your accusation on “Let’s see what other countries do”, is merely following a very very well harrowed path by ALL Australians.
TROY C: An explanation why Kevin Rudd was moved to make this point.
I don’t think it’s admirable that he did so, merely that he is one of twenty-two million peoples’ thinking.
Liz45,
I’ve learned that Labor supporters are blind to the fact that the CPRS …
1 - would not reduce Australia’s emissions (thus they pretend that it does this in the name)
2 - would lock-in paying polluters to keep polluting, and
3 - would have made it politically and economically impossible to later take the real action which is necessary at a later time.
Thus I’ve used the complete lack of action by Rudd to do anything else to tackle climate change as my proof that he really does not care.
Of course we saw Rudd last week say that he did so much work at Copenhagen - but anyone who knows what he was trying to achieve would know that Rudd was a powerful force AGAINST gaining international consensus.
The one thing that did come out of Copenhagen - new money to help developing nations deal with the effects of climate change - is now just a reallocation of Australia’s already far too low foreign aid budget. Yet another Rudd backflip.
The Greens were not obstructive - they would have welcomed anything that was a good first step. But this is not what the CPRS was, and, as mentioned elsewhere in Crikey, Labor had no intention of negotiating with the Greens for any improvements.
What Rudd has done that has been good is so minor that I believe this could have been done by a slightly more progressive Liberal party, eg a Turnbell led Coalition.
And some of the things Rudd is doing now, asylum seekers, NT intervention, cuts in the budget in some areas, are the sort of bad things that would have been expected under Howard.
I’m always amazed that so many Labor supporters on Crikey are so locked into supporting their team that they don’t question why they are supporting what is not much different from we would have have under Howard.
@ JENAUTHOR….trying to explain common sense economics to the likes of MWH, who like his “read my lying lips” idol the monk who is mad, regards global warming as crap, would be wasting your time completely.
The absurd statements from the catholic faithful in the Coaltion keep coming, Greg Hunt that wimp who kicks and runs, describes Abbott as “that wonderful trustworthy, down to earth, Australian. Who tells it like it is, that is why most Australians love him. ” It is sickening.
As for Pell being in the Lodge with Abbott, believe it people. Pell is the scumbag who allowed peodophile priests to continue saying mass, what sort of sin is that in the church?, yet Abbott refused to criticise Pell and still supports him 100%. Is this the man Australia want in the Lodge?
It’s all Right now - latest is, apparently Abbott plays loose with the truth because he “tries to be honest with the public”!
He’s just not very good at it - “lack of practice”?
Needs more?
@MBH - I’ve not given the ALP my first vote for many yrs now. I’m not naive or ignorant fo what’s been happening recently. I’m most disappointed in the Rudd govt, but I don’t believe they’re as bad as Howard, nor(shudder shudder)as bad as Abbott would be! This post is not about climate change policy, but about Abbott’s ability to tell lies - he’s a master at it!
The Greens(or a strong independent that appeals to me)will get my primary vote in the forthcoming federal election. I will never support the coalition!
MICHAEL WILBUR-HAM: (Is that really your name?)
I vote Labor, but have no intention of indulging in semantics re Rudd’s performance on Climate Change; I was as appalled as you are.
Just read my comment of 6.19 18.05.10, and ask yourself are you really going to vote for the Opposition?
Remember, Malcolm Turnbull is a discredited leader and a solo act in a pond full of fresh water krill. He is bigger than they are, and they hate it.
And what they hate, they set out to destroy.
I give you the Queen of England’s loyal Opposition.
Now that I’ve got a response from the Labor hacks, I’m pleased to see that there is no meaningful rebuttal.
To the unthinking Labor supporters the only action needed on climate change was the CPRS, and this was good.
My main point was that if Rudd had believed that climate change was a real economic and environmental threat, he would have made (or tried to make) many other significant changes from the very start of his term. The real measure of the man is his actions, and Rudd has not even attempted to do any of the other things needed to tackle climate change.
And Labor’s changes to the solar cell rebate scheme provide a great case study of how they really don’t care.
Tony’s behavior is bizarre and scary. But I find it equally scary that Rudd can lie so blatantly and get away with it.
Jenauthor - I’m 51. Thus I’m old enough to know of things before Howard, and (perhaps) wise enough to be able to look through spin to actions.
@MWH
The Greens were not obstructive - they would have welcomed anything that was a good first step. But this is not what the CPRS was, and, as mentioned elsewhere in Crikey, Labor had no intention of negotiating with the Greens for any improvements.
This is absolutely NOT true. I personally begged the Greens to reconsider and negotiate their stand so that at least something can br put in place for later amendment.
I got a glib party-line form letter reply saying they would not under any circumstances change their 40% (I think — I’d have t check the email) stand on reductions.
LIZ; My problem is I vowed not to vote for the Greens after that disaster the candidate Clive Hamilton proved to be in favour of internet sponsorship-re the Higgins by-election.
I refuse to vote for the Abbott-led opposition, pissed off with Rudd, and fearful I may have to give the SEX party my vote again.
Cheers
V
“what sort of sin is that in the church?”
Ah, but sinis only sin temporarily. As soon as you confess, you’re absolved of your sins.
The great catholic ‘let out clause’.
David said “trying to explain common sense economics to the likes of MWH, who like his “read my lying lips” idol the monk”.
If you read my comments more carefully you will see that I support The Greens (in fact I was a candidate last Federal election). (Of course my postings here are all my personal view and I am NOT a spokesperson for The Greens.)
How anyone can seriously support the current coalition is a mystery to me.
How anyone can seriously support the current Labor government is a mystery to me.
But the media just concentrate on the sporting match between the two major parties.
And lots of Crikey posts are just people supporting their team and regurgitating their teams spin. (For example, I’ve yet to read any Labor supporter give a decent rebuttal to the Greens criticisms of the CPRS).
David, you are a moron. A) Pell will be in Rome before he is ever in the Lodge. B) Produce one - just one - piece of evidence that Pell “allowed pedophile priests to continue saying Mass”.
Do you accuse Kristina Kenneally of pushing to have Pell in Government House or does your bigotry only extend to Catholics in the Liberal Party?
Could have sworn Labor won the last election, so that would mean the opposition would have some duty to respect the people’s mandate. Can’t stress how important its going to be for everyone to vote for one party in the house, and the same in the senate…we can’t have Australia held to ransom by one party who still doesn’t believe that it is the only party who should rule…ever!
P.S. Whichever party you vote for !
Venise,
I agree with your criticism of Clive Hamilton, and will now publicly state that at the Higgins by-election I voted for the Sex Party before The Greens.
But remember that if Clive had been elected he would have made no difference to voting on the filter. Clive would have been in the lower house where Labor would have trivially pushed the legislation up to the Senate. The Greens in the Senate would have all vote against it.
As a Greens insider at the time I can tell you that Clive’s views on the filter were briefly taken into account during preselection, but he was selected as candidate based on his strong and very articulate stance on climate change.
After he became the candidate I briefly discussed the filter with him, and there were a few emails, and as a consequence I decided to vote as I did.
Note that Clive’s views on the filter have always been against Greens policy, and I think I will be able to confidently vote Green for most other candidates in the future.
Compare this with the Labor party, who went to the election promising an opt-in safe playground for children, and then at one stage wanted to legislate THIS TERM for a filter which would have banned all X-rated content.
Even though I write a sex site, climate change is vastly more important to me than the internet filter, so I’m still not sure the preselecting Clive was a mistake.
When there is real mud dripping off the faces of Rudd and Abbott, it is a bit unfair to not forgive one or two flecks of dirt on The Greens.
Jenauthor,
You can’t legislate that polluting industries can continue for so long and will be compensated so much, and then later amend this out of existence.
But the Labor spin has been to ignore this fact and pretend that the CPRS was a good first step. And clearly this spin has worked for many.
For the real story on negotiations look at the most recent post on Rooted, and look at the links given by Tim Hollo.
Abbott thinks he can lie and just go to confession and god will forgive him. This is the chance Turn-around -Ball has been waiting for, and after Sloppy Joe’s flogging on Q & A last night by Tanner , even with the Chewing -gum girl and the fat boy trying to land a goal on Tanner (missed). Would it be worth finding another Truckie ?
Venice said “MICHAEL WILBUR-HAM: (Is that really your name?)”
You can look me up on Wikipeidia. I’m not ashamed to use my real name.
Venice said “Just read my comment of 6.19 18.05.10, and ask yourself are you really going to vote for the Opposition?”
I find it very hard to even find old articles on Crikey, so I would need a link to your comment to be able to read it.
My vote makes no difference in the lower house (I’m in the very safe Liberal seat of Higgins), but I’ll not be voting Liberal (last by-election they didn’t even send me their leaflets.)
My view is that nothing much will change (in fact, things will continue to get even worse) until the media and discussions in forums such as this, move away from the two party sporting match/ soap opera onto policy and action, and the real opposition (The Greens) are included.
Well their is only 1 way to stop this 2 party soap opera and VOTE GREEN , then your red or blue party. Give your $2.00 + vote to the Greens party , so they can operate and keep the CUN#S honest ? Try It ? Remember that they don’t get BIG money donation from Big Tobacco, Big Coal, Big oil etc etc
Venice,
I just realized that your reference was to a post above. So now I’ve looked at it again.
I very much agree with your point that Australian’s are insular.
We have the myth that Howard/Rudd are centre, or maybe centre right. But look at how we compare to other OECD countries.
For example, just published on the ABC Breaking News is the fact that Portugal is about to become the sixth European country to allow same sex marriage.
Supported by most Australians. Supported by The Greens. But strongly resisted by both Rudd and Abbott.
This is an area where both the Coalition and Labor like to paint the Greens as radical lefties. But compare us to the rest of the world and you can see just how limiting a media focus on the two party system can be.
Australia’s greenhouse emissions are about the highest per capita, and they are still growing. Many countries have actually reduced their emissions. And China, though its emissions are still growing, are doing a massive amount to also include renewable energy and to increase their efficiency. Yet Rudd and Abbott get away with the myth that China is doing nothing and that we need to wait for the rest of the world.
@MWH
“And lots of Crikey posts are just people supporting their team and regurgitating their teams spin. (For example, I’ve yet to read any Labor supporter give a decent rebuttal to the Greens criticisms of the CPRS).”
Ahh, now I understand. I have said before and I’ll say again — your idealism is commendable in an ideal world. Alas there is no way this will ever be an ideal world. And a minor party with a narrow focus will never be a viable alternative. Idealism often results in obstructionism where practicality is concerned.
Your criticisms of the CPRS come from that idealistic viewpoint. But that viewpoint necessarily dismisses a large sector of the working public who rely on polluters for their jobs. To simply throw all these people out of work and shut down, for instance, the coal industry or the steel industry, is great for the environment BUT it would bankrupt this country so fast you wouldn’t be able to catch your breath.
There is a saying … Unlike a yacht you can’t turn a big ship easily. It is a very slow process that requires time and space.
The Greens might believe that we must behave like the yacht and tack on a whim while the best answer for the big ship is simply sink it.
For God’s (whatever kind you believe in) sake — be realistic, our economy is that big ship.
The other point is, Greens have neither the inclination or expertise to run many other aspects of the country. Thus their opinions can often be short-sighted or destructive in terms of the long term welfare of specific sectors of our country. Green opinion about Abbott’s parental leave scheme was silly — to promote such an inequitable policy that favours the few over the many is downright undemocratic. But then again, when it comes down to it, the green’s idealistic attitude to climate change remedy is similarly narrow.
This can be seen in the focus of the Nationals. Often, in the lower house, they are at sea — unable to grasp any kind of overview.
Well, at least he said it. Not that it changes much. All politicians on both sides tell “the truth” as is convenient to any particular situation. That includes part truths, half truths, and total avoidance of a question or issue. It is not exclusive to one party or another. I guess Labor would also say the bullshit we have been fed over time about the insulation bungle and the illegal immigrant debacle contained absolutely no “lies”, but simply 100% “truth”? Anyone with a smattering of intelligence will take his comment with a grain of salt and move on. Tomorrow, there will still be the same drivel being spoken by all the same people.
Unfortunately due to the miserable choice of leadership we currently have (ie Rudd & Abbott) coupled with the idiotic bickering that both parties waste vast amounts of time engaging in, there is little hope it will change any time soon. Personally I am not a fan of Abbott, in fact I can’t stand him, but the one thing worse than him is the public servant’s public servant Rudd, and his govt peppered with people who are career bureaucrats with no business experience among them. Not exactly and ideal team of people to be running a business, much less a country.
Jenauthor,
I’m and Engineer by training, so I see realities that cannot be avoided.
I also see spin, such as yours. Standard Labor tactic - accuse The Greens of being incompetent because they want to do ridiculous things. And as it is spin you just ignore what the Greens really want to do.
My main point in this discussion has been that Rudd has never believed in action on climate change because he has not even started doing any of the things needed to move to a new economy.
For example, the massive fuel subsidiaries and company car subsidiaries need to go.
My main point is based on the economic reality that these cannot just suddenly be removed. They need to be phased out over time. This is why Rudd has been negligent for not even starting this.
I guess that you might be from an Arts background because you fail to understand that nature sets the rules. Either we take the action to prevent climate change or we suffer the consequences.
Doing just a little will only delay things by a short time. Proposing doing just a little, making it difficult to make future changes by legislating “certainty” to the polluters, and then pretending that this is a “solution” to climate change is not just wrong, it is evil.
Also note that when you look at the major economic issues, The Greens often come out most sensible.
For example, the massive tax cuts proposed by both Labor and Liberal before the last election, but opposed by the Greens, where thought to be bad policy by many economists. And the stimulus package only went ahead because The Greens supported it.
And as pointed out in an earlier post, many of those “looney” things proposed by the Greens are already being done by many OECE countries. Compare us to the rest of the OECD, and again and again it is Rudd /Howard / Abbott that are the one who are on the extreme right.
@Trevor. Loved that Barnaby Joyce attempt at supporting the Abbott double talk. The question is when does the electorate cease being Abbott’s red hot lover and turn into the local check out chick?
@ Martin
“and his govt peppered with people who are career bureaucrats with no business experience among them. Not exactly and ideal team of people to be running a business, much less a country.”
And the opposition is any better? At least labor’s vested interests are generally positive for a large portion of the country. And most of the Labor front bench have not only brains but imagination and common sense.
Businessmen must always have an eye for the bottom line often regardless of the welfare of their staff or customers.
Coalition vested interest is mainly for the elite rich, the devoutly catholic and generally the sector they see as the top end of town. Unfortunately, the coalition vested interest is by virtue of their position, greedy and more interested in their own welfare than the country at large. cf. mining magnates on ridiculous incomes who oppose compensating the country for the riches it is extracting. And the coalition front bench are quite devoid of true intelligence or imagination.
Am I lefty — you betcha!
Jenauthor,
Your not a lefty.
Regurgitating old ideologies is irrelevant as Labor is not what it once was. Rudd has moved Labor so far to the right that in many things he is no different from Howard.
Open your eyes and look around. Either admit to yourself that you are now a right winger, or move to the Greens.
Implication being - if you’re not a good liar, then you cannot be a good politician domestically and especially when dealing with other countries. Does anyone ever ponder on how far we have descended from noble ideals?
I mean why are we such willing players in this charade? Haven’t we all been hoodwinked into buying into demagoguery and then accepting when the politicians do exactly what their masters dictate, i.e. the opposite of what they said - well that’s ok because after all, that is what politicians do, and you can’t be a good one unless you do the same!
I am not buying it sorry!
@ MWH
“I guess that you might be from an Arts background because you fail to understand that nature sets the rules. Either we take the action to prevent climate change or we suffer the consequences.”
I agree with you — all these things need to change. But I do think an ETS should have been passed and then altered progressively over time to make the changes you suggest.
My son is an engineer — and he sneers at anyone with an arts background — don’t tell me you are the same … I have enjoyed our jousting and I wouldn’t like to think you’re of that anti-arts ilk.
A liberal arts (not liberal party type liberal) gives a broad education that touches on many areas of the arts and sciences. Thus arts educated types generally have a broad and questing viewpoint, willing to be eclectic in their attitdes.
“Open your eyes and look around. Either admit to yourself that you are now a right winger, or move to the Greens.”
Grin. Not a chance. For the open-minded eclectic attitude I just spoke about, I can see that labor is the esser of two evils. From my experience, the Greens are too narrow in their viewpoint and unbending in their policies. Practicality demands we cater for all — thus a narrow, idealistic viewpoint cannot everhope answer all our problems.
Balance is necessary to my mind — and as things currently stand, Labor is the least unbalanced party. I do not believe in protest voting — it is tantamount to giving your vote to another by proxy.
Of course, what I’m looking forrward to is the press, Viggers Trioli, Akerman, Bolt, Devine, et cetera admitting at Tone’s end (which would be sooner rather than later, it seems) that ‘he was never really suited to it, decent man beyond his station’, ‘should never have become leader’ et cetera….
@ Jenauthor
I will not argue yours or my political leanings whatever they may be. The simple fact is that most pollies are full of hot air. However as a country is essentially a business (not a free for all that simply rolls along uncontrolled), it would be nice to know people with at least some experience in some sort of corporate or business area are in charge. As for overpaid mining company managers, they are running private companies. Good luck to them. On the other hand, isn’t Telstra a glowing tribute to Labor and it’s total ineptness. T1,2 & 3 all a disaster. All those investors must be thrilled. And if anyone wants a share of mining profits, they should buy some shares in the company of their choice. A great way to accumulate wealth for those willing to do so.
This is food for thought for all “AUSTRALIAN WORKING FAMILIES”.
Whoever they are….
..”here’s what Chairman Rudd has been saying about - what he calls - these temporary borrowings. Remember Those Words : Temporary Deficit. But the total Government debt could end up around $200 billion. So here’s a very basic calculation … I used a home loan calculator to work it out … it’s that simple. $200 billion is $200,000 million. The current 10 year Government bond rate is 4.67 per cent. I worked the loan out over a period of 20 years.
Now here’s where it gets scary … Really scary. The repayments on $200 billion come to more than one and a quarter billion dollars - every month - for 20 years. It works out we - as taxpayers - will be repaying $154 billion in interest and principal every year … $733 for every man woman and child - every year. The total interest bill over the 20 years is - get this - $108 billion. Remember, this is a Government that just 18 months ago had NO debt . NO debt. In fact it had enough money to create the Future Fund to pay the future liabilities of public servants’ superannuation … And it had enough to stick $20 billion into the Building Australia Fund last year …
Money News Presenter, Ross Greenwood
A note that was sent to me which explains that the six leading members of the Government from Mr. Rudd down, the top six have a collective work experience of 181 years, but only 13 in the private sector.
If you take out of those 13 years the number that were spent as trade union lawyers, that total 11, of the 181 years only two years were spent in the private sector.
So the people who will rack up a net Federal debt of a minimum of $188 billion, the highest in our history, have virtually no experience in business.
So out of those 181 years:
- no years spent running their own business
- no years spent starting their own business
- no years spent as a director of a family business or a company
- no years as a director of a public company
- no years in a senior position in a public company
- no years in a senior position in a private company
- no years working in corporate finance
- no years in corporate or business restructuring
- no years working in or with a bank
- no years of experience in the capital markets
- no years in a stock-broking firm
- no years in negotiating debt facilities with banks
- no years running a small business
- no years at the World Bank or IMF or OECD
- no years in Treasury or Finance.
But these people have plunged Australia into unprecedented debt, and now threaten to torpedo employee share schemes which they plainly don’t understand.
Well, in a way you can’t blame them. It is clear the electorate did not do their homework, because the Gov’t is there by right.
If you have read this, you may like to pass it on to your friends as you, them and me and our grandchildren, will be repaying the these debts for years to come…………………………………
…….. and that scares me for the welfare of our children and grand children!”..
-Ross Greenwood
How do you “alter progressively over time” legislated commitments to industry?
The only way is changing the commitments. This either involves massive compensation or totally destroying the credibility of the Australian government in regard to industry.
The CPRS is like introducing some mild anti-tobacco legislation which also promises that the Government will compensate the industry if any further restrictions are ever put into place.
In the arts there is no absolute right and wrong. Is Hamlet great or trash - this can be debated endlessly.
In Engineering and science there can be right and wrong. The bridge stays up or falls down. The bridge is cheap enough to build, or too expensive to be feasible.
I don’t snear at Arts peope who respect expertise. But I cannot respect those who think that all is opinion, and thus the experts can be ignored.
Of course there are always real areas for debate, and experts have a responsibility to explain their reasoning.
The Engineers who built the rocket boosters for the space shuttle thought that the one which blew-up just after take-off was very likely to do so. Their concern was overruled by NASA administrators.
The scientists have made very clear what is likely to happen with climate change. This is not a drill.
Mihael W-H,
I must correct some of your rant. The remainder I will leave to rot where you left it.
Firstly, as an educated (?) 51 year old person, you should know a bit more about the english language than has been displayed here. As a one-time Green candidate, you will no doubt have been coached in the absolute need for your utterances to be phrased correctly. Perhaps this cost you the votes you craved; perhaps not.
Regarding your attempts to steer this thead off-topic, I suggest that you exercise a little patience. I Have not seen your handle previously on Crikey’s site, so perhaps you are new to this type of communication.
So, in the absence of strict moderation, let me make a few suggestions:
1. Keep on topic (Currently, the lying ways of the Mad Monk);
2. Leave people alone unless you are serious about engaging with them - for example, desist from broad categorical insults to “labor voters” or whatever. Contributors tend to resent that type of insult;
3. After 15 contributions, mostly repetitive, let go. You have used your ammunition and further effort is futile.
And, Michael, I am also an engineer. NB no capital E. How many uni degrees have you? Does it matter? I think not. The content is more relevant than the pulpit.
Now, back to the topic, Tony Abbott’s leadership of the Opposition as an admitted serial liar, with no indication as to when or if this situation will be remedied.
Henceforth, Abbott is to be known as the mendacious monk.
Here is Abbott being “authentic” as usual …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYzLIywCiA
John Bennetts,
Almost all of my posts have been replying to what was said by others, and most of my posts have been replying to questions or comments made about my earlier posts. Yet you say “Leave people alone unless you are serious about engaging with them.”
And you called my comments a “rant”, yet apart from saying it is off topic, you don’t say where we disagree.
More the Bent Bishop than the Mad Monk, Abbott is now as dead as they come. His admission he compulsively lies for effect should open the door to the next round of Liberal leadership debate. Can they prop Julie up? Give Jolly Joe a Go? Pyne for PM?
For heavens’ sake, all the liberals are bloody shonky lawyers.
The treasurey officials are the ones that do the economics work not the government.
Do get a grip poor old Martin or you will have a stroke.
Abbott admits he talks crap. So when he says climate change is crap, that may be crap. Or is that crap, and he believes in it. Is he crapping on about talking crap? Is this just a distraction so we fail to notice his lack of policies? Or the inadequacy of his Budget Reply Speech? Will Joe Hockey speak crap at the Press Club tomorrow? Or is Tony is charge of Coalition crap, and everyone else crapless?
Ah Beachcomber — you want to replace an Abbott with a Bishop?
I feel so sorry for Joe. I think underneath it all he is a kind-hearted man. But he has been shanghaied into a position he thought he could make work (though why — if we are talking business experience, we should have an ex lawyer the shadow treasurer I don’t know — but then again I suppose most of the libs are ex-lawyers)
Alas the poor guy has been swamped by the ineptitude of those around him and the right-wing agendas of same.
Not sure was focussing on needing business people in govt but I would think that those who have been union bosses, for instance, might have a good idea about how business works as they have had to operate within the parameters of business — often bigger businesses. Therefore they’d see things from both sides of the fence.
Plus, our govt doen’t rule in a vacuum. They have a large public service with excellent advisors (for the most part) who actually run the country. Decisions are usually made after consultation with that public service — this is where things like Abbott’s PPS shows itself to not be well thought out.
@Beachcomber: “Can they prop Julie up?”
Julie Bishop is the cockroach of Oz politics. She survives all party wars. She is teflon-coated. She is also utterly useless (except for the death stare).
Socratease, I remember when Jewelry was tempted to run for the WA Leadership, but a long time leading the in Opposition in WA was not attractive. What a bad decision for a cockroach to make. Instead she remains the trophy deputy leader. Smiling adoringly at a series of Liberal buffoons temporarily elected to lead them onwards to the next disaster.
@jenauthor: I don’t think Joe needs his colleagues, or anyone else, to be surrounded by ineptitude.
Oh yes, if we’ve never worked in the private sector then we simply don’t have a clue! Of course not.
Just waiting now for Super Tone’s next intonation of “big new lie” or even better “great big new lie”.
“Yahhh, ummmm, errrrrr, ummmmmm, Lyndal, ahhhhh, Kerry, ahhhh, Chris ummmmm…”
Spit it out man, spit it out!
@Martin R I did some fact checking T2 & T3 were Tranches sold courtesy of John Howard and Peter Costello. I had had to admire the balls of Costello to flog off Telstra, make an exorbitant amount of cash and annoy the greens in the process (remember the telstra guarantee fought for by Mr Joyce ? I was amazed the farming families bought it). Please don’t give Labor credit for something as crafty as this.
LIZ45 Posted Tuesday, 18 May 2010 at 5:46 pm
Did you see that Lateline tonight showed that clip of Abbott from 2004! It is a classic.
I see from a brief browse that this blog has gone the usual way.
So the Abbott thing got quite a lot more publicity than I had expected. The MSM seem to believe it will have a significant effect on some voters. I am not so sure and from so many dumb blogs here many still miss the main point. Which is not that many politicians deceive us (yawn). It has zip to do with being fair dinkum. My theory with Abbott (buried somewhere at the beginning of this blog) remains the best and scariest explanation. It also explains how he “allows” himself to make “mistakes” like last night — he fundamentally doesn’t care what he may or may not have promised or what other people may claim he said or promised. He knows he has a plan if he ever gets power and nothing that was necessary to get there will matter a damn, to him at least. He is in fact like the Taliban (I suspect the Jesuits would admire their ideological purity and ruthlessness) and “commonsense” or other mundane considerations don’t matter to him and are merely a pose — until he doesn’t have to pose anymore. OK, I suppose I have triggered Godwins Law…….But his posing (sporty fair dinkum all-Aussie bloke) is looking dodgy and turning scary, even if many people cannot quite see why. I reckon his party knew or viscerally felt this all along. (and why the hapless Joe H and others were so shocked when the cards happen to fall Abbott’s way in that party ballot.)
The Liberals also created a regulatory environment where it made no sense for Telstra to invest, and this is one of the reasons for the big fall in the Telstra share price.
Of course Labor, which first sold Telstra, also has made a mess of things recently (but this time bad Telstra management shares some responsibility).
Disclaimer - I used to work for Telstra, and I still own Telstra shares.
Bleedin’ hell!
114 comments because a politician admitted he lies.
Graeme Richardson there is another book in this….helloooo Graeme? Yoohoo?
@ ShepherdMarilyn
I agree, thinking about it could possibly induce a stroke, it is that frightening. Nice try of avoiding the facts of Rudd’s team for which you clearly have no retort. Blame the treasury officials. Good one.
My argument is who is best qualified to run the country. It is as simple as that. But calling me old and warning me of an impending stroke only makes me laugh at the age of 27. I’m fit as a fiddle, thanks.
I guess you’re a darn side older than me darling. Perhaps you should worry about yourself instead. I appreciate the thought nonetheless, so for that I thank you. I was truly touched.
MICHAEL WILBUR-HAM: Were you quoting me in your 20:10 18 May post, or do you live in Higgins?
Time for me to speak the truth. I’ve voted Green for some years, and given Labor my prefs.
It wasn’t totally my fury re Clive Hamilton being a censorious twat in the Higgin’s by-election. It was as much Labor’s cynicism of not fielding a candidate-claiming too much money would not be worth it in a blue ribbon seat. PLUS that awful Kelly O’Dwyer-chosen by Peter Costello. I know I’m being repetitive, but I will not vote for a fundamentalist Catholic, any more than I would vote for ANY sort of fundamentalist- Muslim, Catholic, American, Australian, English Taliban. Plymouth Brethren, Exclusive Brethren, Scientologists, Morons, Mad Methodists, Steve Fielding and his Ring of Fire mob, Hill Song, Orthodox Jew, re-born Christian, Kevin Rudd, or a radical Buddhist. Not that I’ve ever met one of these.
Do you really write a Sex site? Excellent. As a matter of fact I voted for the SEX Party. At least they know what they stand for.
Whereas we now have the picture of Kevin Rudd taking over the conservatives. Together with Tony Abbott pretending to be a Sensitive New Age Guy to gain creds from the Rudd Labor Party.
It seems our politicians fail to read history. If Oz was ever to have a civil war, the Moderates, Liberal and Labor would be the first ones to get executed and stuck into concentration camps.
Whereas the Nashos on the extreme Right and a Party of the extreme Left. I don’t know if the Greens are of the extreme Left. But the result would go to either of the really radical parties.
I am pretty tired at the moment and will say goodnight with a limerick.
“Hello down there, I am God;
That Catholic Abbott’s a clod.
He admits that he lies
And the lies he denies
I find his behaviour most odd.”
‘Night
Venise
Bernard Keane carries on the media beatup.
It is far better for a politician to be inconsistent than consistently wrong. The ETS is a case in point. There has not been any significant global warming for 15 years. Yet Rudd and Turnbull continue to falsely maintain that anthropogenic global warming is the moral challenge of the century. Abbott had the courage to change his position for the better. In any case, even if there were global warming, no one has produced any irrefutable evidence that it is driven by human-caused emissions. Governments kid themselves and gullible voters by believing that they can control climate. Climate change is a natural process.
Penultimate line to read….Yet the lies he denies.
It took 144 posts till we got our the first comment from a climate change denier.
Venise,
I live in Higgins, so I was talking about how I voted.
Why Tony Abbott is one big conundrum is like asking why a chameleon changes its colours? Your average hard-wired bullshit artist doesn’t usually get to lead a political party but in this case Tony Abbott’s colleagues ignored all the warning signs. That the guy reached his level of incompetence before a national television audience in an election year is as much their fault as his. A man with a long reliable record for telling porkies, prone to ill-timed uncontrolled outbursts of bad and silly language, open to a bit of casual subterfuge like knobbling his opponents are traits discouraged in society but in the Liberal Party they’re seen as assets. The Tony Abbott phenomenon isn’t about flirting with the truth – it’s about knowing when to draw the line particularly in public office. Down at the surf club shooting off your mouth, being a mug lair and swaggering round in lycra might all be part of the scene but inside parliament and in a leadership role Tony Abbott’s time and place mechanism isn’t even trip-switched. The best thing Tony Abbott has done is leave the priesthood. At least in a public life there are balances and checks to weed out those who tend to walk on the wild side.
Socratease:
RE: The Julie Bishop “death stare” - my god, you’re right!
I never realised it up until this minute, but it’s Pat Mullens all over!
It may take a little while for the Liberal Party, and much of the media, to realise this but Abbott’s statements about his lying habits makes it impossible for them to win the next election. Not difficult, not unlikely, but outright impossible.
Many commentators are vacillating about what the electoral impact will be and coming up with far-fetched guesses about what voters might think. They are wasting our time because not only does he admit that he lies but he also says that it is excusable. Admitting to lying is one thing, absolving yourself of responsibility for it, now and in the future, is quite another. It is the ‘excusable’ part that has totally destroyed him politically.
JBG…you are very slow on the uptake..my reference to Pell being in the Lodge was not, repeat not that he would move in physically with his dresses and funny hats, but his influence over Abbott would be present…jeeeeez, try and keep up.
As for Pell allowing Pedophile priests continue to say Mass, go to Tuesday nights 7-30 report and check the item on that subject and why 2 priests still operating are being persued by their then 8 yr old victims. Pell is in charge of the RC Church in Australia so he has the umtimate decision to make and as the boss takes the rap if nothing happens. All complaints of this nature to the church go over his desk. I appreciate you are busy with your attemps to justify your religion and your leader/s however show a smidgen more of the ole brain matter working huh!!!!
Good limerick Venise.
I am thinking of myself as audience of this missive.
Tiniest thought.
Oddness would be part of his grand plan after all - so maybe ultimate line could be
something to do with an advice that choice of Abbott as PM is odd, or that he is one
that making sense from him as being difficult.
meansay…
walking on loose sod,
being led by a knob or something.
@ SANDERSON
Mate you might want to read this before you bang you sanctimonious head against a reality wall.
“THE biggest liars are those who claim never to lie and hence we should be embracing the honesty of Opposition Leader Tony Abbott for admitting the occasional fib. The people to be most suspicious about are the ones who push the sanctimonious nonsense that lying is always immoral.
We all lie. Yet none of us accepts that we are dishonest. That’s the biggest lie of all.
We should be less embarrassed about lying and ditch the delusion that dishonesty is always bad.
That way we could focus on the circumstances in which lying is permissible and indeed desirable as opposed to engaging in the mother of all deceits by pretending honesty is an absolute virtue.
From the pragmatic perspective, lying is endemic and only getting worse as a result of new communication devices. It is particularly rampant in non-social settings.
A study by Friends Provident showed more than 80 per cent of people admitted to telling at least one lie a day, with two-thirds admitting to having lied at work. The most common workplace lie was faking a sickie. A quarter of employees stated they lied about having completed work and about 20 per cent lied to cover up a big mistake.
The study also showed facilities such as text messaging and email made it easier for people to lie because it made them feel less guilty than lying face to face.
This survey relies solely on self reports and, not surprisingly, is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the frequency of lying. The truth about lying is that we all do it much more than most of us care to admit.
We nearly always deny lying because we are scared of being viewed as pathological liars and hence never being believed.
An earlier survey by psychologist Jeff Hancock of Cornell University showed respondents lied during a quarter of their social interactions.
A University of Massachusetts study showed most people lie in normal conversation when they are trying to appear competent and likable. According to the study, 60 per cent of people lied at least once during the course of a 10-minute conversation.
There is no doubt that lying is normally morally undesirable. For us to plan, co-ordinate and structure our activities it is necessary to have an accurate understanding of the state of affairs in the world. Absent this, our plans and projects would be frustrated. Lies undermine our capacity to achieve our goals and projects.
This is so whether they relate to the traits of people or the operation of systems and processes in the world.
Plans to catch the morning train, attend important appointments and meet work and other goals and deadlines can be derailed by misrepresentations regarding these matters.
If things are not the way they have been portrayed, our goals are far less likely to be secured.
Despite this, the news on lying is not all bad. Lying is morally permissible in three circumstances. The key to lying is for people to understand when it is OK to stretch (and indeed break) the truth.
First, it is OK to lie to protect unjust attacks on higher order interests, such as the right to life, liberty and physical integrity. To this end, parallels can be drawn with the right to self-defence. This entails that lies are justifiable only where the threat is relatively imminent and there is no other lawful means to readily neutralise the risk. Thus, you needn’t think twice about pointing an aggressor in search of his intended victim in the wrong direction.
The second exception to the general prohibition against lying is where it is necessary to achieve important social goods that cannot be secured (at all or at least not very effectively) through transparent means. Thus, covert law enforcement practices and investigative journalism are sound practices.
And it is probably permissible to tell your children there is a Santa Claus and your wife that you are at work instead of at the pub having an extra drink.
Finally, you get to tell the occasional white lie. They’re OK where the topic of the lie cannot readily be avoided and it is done to spare a person’s feelings. Thus, when your partner asks you “Does my bum look big in this new dress?” or “Is my new haircut nice?” you get to say no and yes, respectively.
This is irrespective of how many kilograms they have piled on recently or how ill-suiting the hairstyle actually is. But it is not desirable to make the same remark if it has not been prompted; instead, compliment your partner on their great personality.
White lies are also permissible where they act as social lubricants, obviating the need to engage in drawn-out character evaluations. Better to say you can’t make it to dinner because you’re busy rather than because you find the person revolting.
Character appraisals rarely work; they lead only to hostility and defensiveness.
Abbott’s lies arguably fall into the second category.
He is occasionally expedient with the truth on non-core issues to attract his audience. Is this justifiable? Yes, if it is a means to improving the greater community good by removing an incompetent government.
It is a judgment call whether federal Labor has reached this level yet, but the scourge of pink batts, school halls and non-action on refugees, human rights and the environment makes it a line-ball decision.
Kevin Rudd is the boss; the most powerful man in the country. At that level, the only criterion on which he is to be judged is outcomes. There are no points for trying hard (even staying up late at night) or good intentions. Under Labor, there are no measurable improvements in the prosperity of normal Australians or the services that are essential to human flourishing, in the form of health and education.
Three more years of good intentions and excuses for doing nothing may be more than the country can tolerate.
What isn’t line ball is that it is good finally to have a bit of honesty and maturity on the lying front. Those who still maintain they never lie need to do one of two things: stop lying or do us all a favour and drop the occasional fib.
Mirko Bagaric is a Deakin University professor and author of How to Live: Being Happy and Dealing with Moral Dilemmas.”
@WILBUR-HAM
My granddad, a devout socialist, always said “son never trust a salesman who says he never lies and never, ever trust anyone with a hyphenated surname - they’re all second hand Tories.”
Notwithstanding the fact that he chose the wrong ideology, he was usually “spot on”.
Says Michael:
“Abbott is occasionally expedient with the truth on non-core issues to attract his audience. Is this justifiable? Yes, if it is a means to improving the greater community good by removing an incompetent government.”
You just have to laugh at people who think this sort of stuff is fair and reasonable argument.
@SANDERSON
You idiot - Labor invented the art of lying for the better good. We just call it spin.
@lacqueredstudio:
For an excellent example, see:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/03/09/deathjulie/
Go, Bernard and get’em,
We are talking about a lying rodent’s gofer here, are we not?
Compassion dictates that I keep this in mind when I hear the r Abbot railing against the prime minister who doesn’t tell the truth.
For god’s sake Michael can’t you think for yourself. Mirko also defended druggies in Melbourne’s gangland wars and believed that torture was justified.
Give it a rest.
Liz45
Posted Tuesday, 18 May 2010 at 5:46 pm | Permalink
“Michael R James
Posted Tuesday, 18 May 2010 at 2:02 pm
I recall that interview with Tony Jones. Did you see the look on Abbott’s face as the credits were going up. If looks could kill, Jones would’ve slumped back in his chair. i taped it! Still have it somewhere! If shock horror, Abbott wins, Pell will be in the Lodge too! Scary thought!
Tony Abbott will say and do anything on any given day if he thinks it will further his goals - full stop! He’s lied so often, his nose should reach from canberra to Sydney by now! Don’t like him, don’t like his policies or opinions, particularly as they relate to women. I’d adopt the policy with him - be carpeted but never cornered!
Don’t trust him either! He’s a sleaze! Look how he speaks to women! Yuk!”
THIS IS WHAT I SAID AT THAT TIME!
EVIDENTLY: Sorry to be late-I don’t get to my computer until 1500hrs.
I don’t think I’m sure about your point. My point was/is God would disapprove of an Abbott who gaily admits to telling lies.
So great is his fury he is rendered almost speechless. But the strongest denunciation of Tony Abbott’s philosophy comes about when Himself can only utter ‘Odd’. As in strange.
As an atheist I lack the balls to pretend I’m conversant with the Boyo. Hell, I don’t even believe in him.
I hope I have answered your comment to your satisfaction.
Cheers
V
@Vanatian
Me thinks you protest too much Vanie
Bet your a closet worshipper - bet you count your beads all day
You are not as dissimilar to Abbott as you pretend dearest.
MICKY: Do some research. Get your facts right. And prune your posts. The one on a lie is a colossal waste of space.
Otherwise Y A W N!
PS: Are you an elderly gay; that you call me ‘dearest’?
Good night icky wicky sticky Micky, darling.
VENISE- Why does Michael call you “Vanie”? And why does he think it’s OK to be so offensive? I just don’t understand why some men resort to ‘pet names’ and patronising endearments? Do they think it’s clever or is it intended to be insulting? Hopefully, people who read his offensive put downs see them as they are! The sign of a very small, pea sized even, brain! The behaviour of an insignificent little person?
I get called “lizzie” in the same patronising manner. Yuk!
2010 - some things never change!
What made me smile was the image of you being a user of beads - rosary or worry ones - it matters not! Abbott just makes me cringe - he certainly doesn’t pass my ‘sleaze barometer’? I’ve not been wrong in my gut instincts re this response to some blokes so far! Just revolting!
@BARBARA BOYLE - I heartily agree!
Sorry LIZ: I meant re the response to the budget.
Moderator
You will no doubt moderate me back by 100 blogs.
But when you ask me to pay $135 for next years subscription, please keep in mind you behavior.
Yes?
The moderators could not care less about your subscription. They just don’t like your style.
If you don’t like theirs, you have some choices.
@ Michael Here is a choice, bugger off to the Akerman blog it is free and you will feel very much at home among persons of your own bent and stupidity.
Talking of stupidity, Miranda Devine in this mornings SMH takes it to a new level when she writes…… “Abbott has shown repeatedly that no one can beat him for judgment, taste and logical grasp of an argument. He has cut through the white noise of Rudd’s leadership voodoo and shredded the Prime Minister’s record popularity. He has shown he has the courage and intellect to be not just a good opposition leader, but a great prime minister”……she is obviously on medication, been visiting another planet these last 7 days or just another Liberal stooge who make up the MSM.
DAVID: Yesterday I learned that semi-literate members of the Liberal Party are being asked, by their party, to clog up the comments pages in left-wing inclined on-line newspapers.
Which accounts for MICHAEL’S inordinately long treatise on lying.
LIZ: My reply to you was moderated. It was along the lines of certain males-especially the ones who are not sure of their own sexuality-resort to condescension rather than answering a woman on equal terms.
However, I am not about to be worried about this particular f*ago*la. He’s just the amateur help the Liberal Party uses.
VENISE - Re the use by the Libs to clog up the comments pages etc. You may recall, that prior to the ‘07 election, a certain owner of a large retail chain of stores(also the name of a travel company) was reported in the SMH as suggesting, that Australia use overseas peoples’ labour and only pay them half of the wage that citizens received. He claimed, that although the coalition hadn’t supported his idea publicly, there was a lot of support for it privately? Fancy that? I was one of the many people who wrote letters to major and local newspapers. We then found out, that there were a heap of public servants and liberal supporters(via the then WorstChoices minister - one JH?) going through the newspapers’ letters pages and ‘investigating’ the authors? Outrage was then the response?
In my NSW once safe Labor seat, the latest boundary changes have meant, that I’m now in the adjoining seat of a female Liberal member. Not on any of her media, either on a banner or via the letterbox does she state her political party, in fact, a newly erected banner states that she’s the new member - she hasn’t been elected as the member - yet! An approximate 4% swing will unseat her next time!
Why doesn’t this surprise me? Nothing these bastards do surprises me any more!
People like MICHAEL could probably be tolerated if he was a teenager(although I know a lot of articulate non-sexist, non-sleaze teenage males) but if he professes to be of a mature age, he’s just pathetic - a sexist bully - one of the group that I thought we were getting rid of! Not yet it would seem! White Ribbon Day ambassadors still have a real challenge ahead of them with these blokes!
I haven’t seen the msm yet, but I guarantee they’re not taking Abbott, Hockey or Robb to task as they would if Kevin Swan or Nicola Roxon or Lindsay Tanner engaged in such lies! I’m open to being surprised though!
(re your post of last night - 10.17pm)Personally, the back is still giving me curry, my friend had her first (about 6 weeks to go)radiation treatment yesterday(fingers crossed) and my (eldest) son told me last evening, that he has bought me a new computer with a you beaut LCD screen etc- hopefully will bring it in a couple of weeks? Aren’t I the spoilt one? (this will be the 3rd one he’s given me - the other two were pre-loved - this one is brand new - I’m excited!)
@David: I saw that bit in the SMH from Miranda Devine and had to read it twice to be sure I wasn’t imagining it.
On the strength of those sentences she ought to be known as Miranda Deluded.
@LIZ45…Liz I searched the News Ltd sites to find the justified ctical comments of the pathetic performance by Hockey and Robb yesterday and there it was 2/3rds down in a small heading, not written by one of their so called leading political writers ie Kelly or that woose Shanahan but some obscure back roomer. Not critical, not questioning just a brief summary of what Hockey said (that would be brief). Today Hockey announces the reason he and Robb couldn’t reveal details of funding and cuts and taxes etc is, they haven’t had time to digest the budget papers and will wait until the Senate estimates committee does the job for them in a couple of weeks. Then after they have absorbed all that and combined all the information they will reveal their details.
I am now even more interested as to why Turnbull has decided to rejoin this absolute shambles of an Opposition. Is it to see lying lips Abbott the Mad retain the leadership or is he hovering like a hungry vulture, over a decaying corpse.
On a related matter, Fortescue Metals boss Andrew Forrest claimed $US15 billion ($A17.2 billion) in long-dated iron ore expansions were on hold in protest over the proposed 40 per cent resource rent tax. It was revealed this morning the same Mr Forrest has been experiencing great diffuculty raising money for his future mining explorations and has been searching long and hard for overseas backers. (ABC Radio)
Perchance we have here a smokescreen, with his threats to put future expansions and mining on the shelf, all because of the 40% tax???????/
I small a rat. a BIG FAT RICH ONE.
^ I think Brendan Nelson was correct when he diagnosed Turnull as having narcissistic personality disorder, so it strikes me as consistent that Turnbull would want to come back and topple Abbott simply for personal gratification and the opportunity to proclaim, yet again, “I am the leader”.
Other than that I can’t fathom Turnbull at all. He ain’t a politician and by now he probably realises it, but when the ego is in the driving seat, anything can happen.
@DAVID - Agree with all above! Miranda Devine has lost credibility a long time ago - just pathetic! Why am I not surprised re the reporting of yesterday’s fiasco! No doubt Abbott won’t be accused of misleading Parliament? Sickening isn’t it?
How many BILLIONS does Forrest have? My heart bleeds for him!
Anyone who is very active on Crikey (as I am with this burst of activity) knows that it takes LOTS of time.
Last time I was very active, many discussions were being hijacked by several very active climate change deniers.
Now that real action on climate change is no longer a political threat, it seems that they have gone.
I suspect that these very active climate change deniers were not just stooges, but some where even being paid. Did anything every come out (while I was not following Crikey) to support my suspicion?
And on MICHAEL (without surname), his rebuttal to my comments was to make fun of my surname.
As best I can judge, Fortescue Metals is one of the last Australian controlled mining companies of any size that has not had its share registry dominated by JP Morgan, Citigroup and HSBC via their nominee investment arms. It is in the interests of these raiders in my opinion to see the share market collapse so they can soak up whatever mining wealth is remaining here. This, in my opinion, they can do as a result of the generous bailout funds they received from Uncle Sam. Instead of lending those funds to business, it is my belief that they have been busy driving down markets and buying up assets. Only my opinion understand. They could care less if the Australian Govt. slaps on a super tax as it will make mining shares cheaper just long enough for them to increase their holdings. Guys like Forrest are right. Rudd is throwing them to the wolves. Forrest is likely to be finding it hard to raise funds because he is probably not one of “the boys”. This may explain his tryst with the Chinese. Once Wall Street takes over however, there will be no longer a shortage of money. It is just that FMG will not be an Australian owned company just as BHP, RIO and the rest of them are little more than international entities with an Australian address. Rudd as much as said this recently when justifying his super tax. I don’t believe the super tax is necessarily the way to do it but definitely ensuring Australia’s equity in its resources in the 21st century is imperative to our remaining a sovereign nation; assuming that the government has this as its intention of course.
@WILBER-HAMBONE
I thought it was a serious rebuttal.
Kill the messenger and with it the message. Karl Marx Vol 2, Page 566, Par 4.
Michael WH, nothing concrete from the protagonists, but I did read that one of them had an excellent understanding of the technicalities involved in oil exploration. Coincidence?
MICHAEL - My goodness, here we have you referring to Karl Marx! What’s going on? No doubt you can quote the bible too? Of course you’d conveniently forget the bits that say it’s OK to have sex with your kids or kill people for working on the sabbath? Now I’ve seen it all! lol
As for your comment earlier re hyphenated names? I wish now, that not only had I kept my original name upon marriage(as there’s no legal requirement to do so - just another control mechanism by men) and I’d have insisted on my children also having my name - not much to ask for since I did 99% of the work?The point being, that there are people in the world at present who have a hyphenated name for just this reason. Of course, there are those with a name like ‘smith’ or ‘jones’ who put something in front of or after it, as ‘smith’ is just too ordinary?
As with your offensive and paternal and patronising comments to VENISE and other women, your set of reference wouldn’t be broad enough to think of this aspect!
LIZ: I have never worn a wedding ring. I’ve always regarded it as a mini slave bangle.
I told the witless MARTINR, on another post, I wouldn’t debate him. That my words are precious to me, and not to be wasted on half-wits.
VENISE - My claim to being ‘conned’ was that I wasn’t 18 at the time, and too many yrs influence of the cc. It was certainly used as a “slave bangle” by my abusive ex husband - did it make any difference? Hardly - more to do with my being taught to be submissive by the times and, as I said the influence of the cc - boy, when I found my ‘voice’ with encouragement from a wonderful female boss, I haven’t looked back - but I do recognise the cc damaging influence as I’ve spoken of on many occasions? Thankfully, my sons weren’t conned, and neither have their children - so far? - thank goodness! I’d be very worried if my grandkids were smothered and manipulated like I was - most worrying indeed!
By the time I was divorced, there were other more pressing issues than changing my name back to my original, which was my fathers anyway - I should’ve taken my little Mums’ but that was a blokes name too! It also gives me an ‘emotional link’ I suppose to my sons and their kids. Who knows, I might break out and change it - even at this stage of my life? I think of all the work involved and I don’t know whether I want the hassle. It would be my last ‘message’ to himself - ‘stick your bloody name’? I’ll certainly encourage my grand-daughters to keep their original name - not in a pushy way, but just as something learnt by my experiences. I also stress education - education - education at every opportunity too, and not to tie themselves down while young; see the world etc is my advice these days!
I agree with your stand re MARTINR! Why waste your time on people who prove that they don’t deserve the effort?
time for food??
cheers
@ Venise
Oh come on now. Can’t you argue without the support of others to feel validated on these threads? Always backing each other up like a clan of hyenas. Now you’re two for two. You proved yourself a liar on the towelhead thread, so based on that fact you and Abbott have something in common. He also says things in the heat of passion that he doesn’t really mean. Like you calling me “the witless MartinR”
His comments were gutsy, even if they were completely detrimental to his position. As flattering as it is, please stay on the topic of the thread and off the topic of me. Also, I hope you could one day show me your vast collection of old passports. You could post them on Facebook.
Cheers
MARTINR Still feeling liverish?
The reason, which you would know if you had thought to refer back to the ‘Towelhead’ post before throwing a hissy. “You proved yourself a liar on the towelhead thread” Was that I thought the man had posed six statements. There were no interrogatives designating otherwise. I told him I would reply to his questions if he really was interested in my opinions.
Which I would have done before this if I hadn’t had to give a lengthy rebuttal to your fatuous insults.
Also, I don’t get to my computer until 1500hrs. As this is not my fault, I think it’s unkind of you to declare me a liar, before I have had a chance to reply.
The people who slam into me are the first people to A) misquote me, do not read my comments before slamming into me cost me hours of explanation, and as a two finger typist slows me down even more.
Just to refresh your memory:
@3.20pm, 18 May your opening stanza was the remark of someone spoiling for a fight. @3.51 you wrote “Mate don’t look for reason in this den of vipers”. Thus reinforcing your belligerent attitude.
Your next post was to be offensive to JENAUTHOR.
@ 5.25 18 May, I entered the lists by replying to BERNARDK, citiucal of Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott. You were not mentioned at all.
@6.19pm 18 May, I replied to TROY C. Once again you were not mentioned. @6.21 was another short reply to TROY C. You were not mentioned.
@6.38 I replied to Michael Wilbur-Ham-you were not mentioned-we had a discussion wherein he both agreed with each other.
@6.45pm was a personal note to LIZ45. You were not mentioned. Up until now nothing has been inferred about you.
@5.23pm, 19 May I replied to EVIDENTLY. I included a limerick. You were not mentioned, or alluded to.
@5.23pm, 19 May. You re-entered into the fray with an exceedingly unpleasant and patronising post. DIRECTED AT ME.
“Venitian, methinks you protest too much, Vanie.
Bet you are a closet worshipper-bet you count your beads all day.
You are not dissimilar to Abbott as you pretend, dearest.
And you honestly blame me for biting back? How dare you sling off such a patronising and demeaning comment at me, followed up by your fatuous attitude that I attacked you.
Either you had been drinking, had a mental seizure, or just wanting a fight. Do you REALLY feel surprised that I called you witless? Grow up.
I rest my case.
MARTINR - Your idea of gutsy is surprising. I don’t think Abbott was or is gutsy about anything. He’s a ditherer, who just loafs around trying to be all things to all people, but he’s as easy to read as anyone I’ve ever known - he’s insincere, and will say anything and do anything that he thinks will serve his purpose. He doesn’t give a fig about the Australian people - is not “fair dinkum” and his ‘childishness’ (his petulant stance is too) is almost embarrassing to observe. My 9 yr old grandson has more insight into how to behave - in public, in private as well. We can also see through his attempts to justify his actions, sometimes - but I have every hope for his future! Unlike Abbott! The sooner he disappears off the scene the better I’ll like it!
I think VENISE has ‘euchred you’?
LIZ: LACQUERED STUDIO, the man MICHAEL has accused me of lying to, has yet to respond to my post wherein I requested he tell me two things. A) What is your religion? B) On a scale of one to five please indicate the strength of your beliefs. That if I was sure he wasn’t grandstanding, or lying, I would answer the questions. Questions which had no question marks. Questions which I took to be statements. Thus far I am yet to receive an answer.
You are a gem!
Have a good weekend.
Lotsa luv
Venise
LIZ: The above comment mentioned MICHAEL as being the perp I meant MARTINR. BIOT I was also being attacked by a MICHAEL at the same time.
Venise - You too! I’ve been to the chiropractor, so my warm water bed is looking very enticing at the moment.
Aren’t men the limit? They just refuse to ‘own’ their dominating behaviour all the time? Just amazing! If they ‘pat my head’ any more, my once thick locks will disappear!
When my sons were growing up(teenagers?) I’d only have to raise my eyebrows at their sexist or overbearing comments and they’d grin and know exactly what was going on. They were teenagers? These blokes don’t have that excuse. My kids also experienced sexist behaviour against me while in my company, and would say to me, ‘now I know what you mean’or ‘have you always had to put up with this’? Gee mum, how do you keep your temper? “That man(a car salesman once) was damned rude to you, he ignored you and spoke to me, and I’m not even interested in buying the damn car’?” I think he was about 17 at the time. Made me feel good!
They knew what patronising and paternalistic behaviour was - why can’t these so-called adult men?
Have a relaxing week end yourself! Cheers!
LIZ: The reason being the parents of these patronising and bigoted sh*its have just passed on their own shibboleths. And it’s so much easier to pass on hatred than to pass on tolerance and good manners.
Sick, sick, sick.
Have a good one. Cheers!
@ Venise
Quote: “@3.20pm, 18 May your opening stanza was the remark of someone spoiling for a fight. @3.51 you wrote “Mate don’t look for reason in this den of vipers”. Thus reinforcing your belligerent attitude.”
1. Well, I never said either of those two things, so get your facts straight.
2. You quote me at 5.23 on 19th May. I never called you Vanie, so clearly that was not me either, so now you have misquoted me twice.
3. You are clearly of the Ruud ilk with your fascinatingly detailed review of the thread listing times and dates of quotes. So thorough. I guess it was pure error that you conveniently failed to include the entry you made Thursday, 20 May 2010 at 6:41 pm
“LIZ: I have never worn a wedding ring. I’ve always regarded it as a mini slave bangle. I told the witless MARTINR, on another post, I wouldn’t debate him. That my words are precious to me, and not to be wasted on half-wits.”
Not only are you are story teller (liar) who can’t even get my quotes right, but you can’t even get your own quotes right.
You constantly need the support of other like minded people to back you up on everything you write, and you refuse to discuss anything of relevance to any topic. What you seem to mainly do is converse with your virtual friends and attempt to take the moral high ground over everyone who disagrees with you. Try going it alone for a change. By the way, when will we get to see that passport collection to prove you have traveled? The sort of thing a poor child would say in a playground who feels inferior to his or her peers. And you tell me to grow up??
You have utterly failed to respond to a single point I have made on either this thread or the towel-head one. And now you start mentioning people’s parents on top of all that. Well, isn’t that tacky & condescending.
“I told the witless MARTINR, on another post, I wouldn’t debate him. That my words are precious to me, and not to be wasted on half-wits”
In a courtroom, that (ie no comment) is considered guilt. In a debate, it’s a loss. And meanwhile, here you are, with your entourage, wasting ever more of your precious and sanctimonious words and not even getting your facts correct.
But it is fun though, isn’t it?
@ Liz I can’t stand Abbott, but what choice do I have in the matter? Him and Ruud are both total w@nkers. If you ever watched Chaser’s War, you would have to agree that at least Johnny H had a sense of humor. These two are like robots. When they turned up at a church service to give Ruud some stick, he didn’t go near them and had security bundle them off, like the sniveling little nerd that he is. I won’t disagree with anything you say about Abbott and I hated his arrogance when he was part of the Howard govt. He is a religious nut and that is always scary. Sadly, I honestly find it hard to see any hope in the top tier of leadership of either party. I may be Liberal sided, but I find it almost unfathomable that we have such a depth of total di*kheads vying for control of govt in both major parties. Nobody has the guts to really stand up and be counted. I mean how about this Michael Johnson bloke? He is a prime example of today’s politician. I won’t hold my breath, but the first one that stands up and says we should eliminate State or Local govts, well if that ever get’s said by someone, then perhaps we have found our man (or woman). It will never happen, despite the fact most people know it should.
It’s a long long time ago, but I always admire Churchill. He was the real deal. Find me someone with his resolve and conviction and I will be very happy.
Well Hitler had similar resolve and conviction.
So it always worries me when people support a leader because he or she provides strong and clear leadership at this time of need, and do so without thinking carefully about what they stand for.
MARTINR: I apologise, deeply, to the man for whom I mistook you.
MICHAEL - H M - I agree with you. Further to that view, is the change in attitude for some time now re teaching kids to ‘do as adults tell them’ and ‘have respect for all adults etc’, and I agree. The reason is, that children are too intimidated then to refuse to engage in actions that are abusive to them, just because an adult told them to. I agree with this change in attitude. I always told my boys that they had the right to defend themselves at school for instance, if they were wrongly accused of doing something, but to do it politely, and never condoned rudeness etc, and that they had the same rights as I to not engage in activities that they didn’t like, or go with so-called ‘friends’ etc. I think this ‘strong leader’ business is rubbish too. As adults we don’t require a ‘strong leader’ for goodness sake, do we? In a real democracy(not a pretend one like ours) adults are as important as the leader/s, to have an opinion, imput and mutual respect?
Idi Amin and Mugabbe from Zimbabwe could be called ‘strong leaders’ too? I like Nelson Mandela’s ‘brand’ of strength myself or Martin Luther King! I did like Gough Whitlam(he’s in a nursing home now - sad). But, then I have differences with him, re East Timor for example, and Indonesia in general! Can’t think of many others? Interesting isn’t it?
MARTINR: What business of yours would it be that LIZ and I had a brief chat and I said I had never worn a wedding ring?
How do you know if I have ever been married?
WTF should I waste all the time and effort to answer your bullying and ugly questions? It would be a complete waste of my time-after all you would just ignore the content and give me another pointless, vacuous blast.
The problem with someone like you is you don’t want someone’s answers. All you want is to display your own imagined talents.
You sound exactly like the scientologist I had a run in with. Are you he? He was a sordid bully, just like you.
You should read the post re: David Campbell. Under the comments there is a well organised post by me to one of your Bully Boy friends (Michael). In it you will see I’m quite capable of dealing out facts.
When you are so gratuitously rude to people it doesn’t prove your intended victims are deficient. On the contrary. It reveals your own insecurity. It tells everyone you have a vulnerable body which needs to be protected with a very ugly shield.
In your revolting post to SANDERSON you made the sweeping statement that “THE biggest liars are those who claim never to lie”.
I seem to remember Hitler said with the utmost truth, that he was going to invade the Sudatenland. I read it in Mein Kampf. In this book he laid out all of the things he was going to do to Europe and Russia when he had the chance.
Woopie do. Along came WWII. At no time had he lied about his intentions.
Although your bullying modus operandi is almost identical to Hitler’s you fail to convince me that you would know the truth if you fell over it.
Thank you for accusing me of being one of Rudd’s claque (yes I meant claque. Look it up.). It so happens I loathe the man, and have said so frequently, but I detest Tony Abbott a helluva lot more.
Why did you embark on a treatise about lying? You revealed no penetrating observations. No subtly written insights. It was all regurgitated thoughts taken from other writers. You would have to produce something far superior to convince me you were not using up on-line comments sections for the Liberal Party.
Then you-on a comment to LIZ-come out with the revelatory zinger. Churchill is one of your heroes. Ha ha.
Were you speaking as an Englishman perhaps? Because Churchill was no friend to Australia.
He was an appalling war (WWI) leader who squandered thousands and hundreds of thousands of lives of his soldiers. Do the Anzacs ring a bell to you? Gallipoli has crossed your tiny mind? You realise our then Prime Minister John Curtin had to fight Churchill (WWII) to get our troops out of the Middle East in order to fight for Australia? Churchill was so magnanimous, was he not? Yes, he told Curtin he shouldn’t worry about Australia being taken by the Japanese. BECAUSE he, Churchill would liberate Australia at the end of the war. Wasn’t that sweet of him?
Australia-despite what the RSL tells you-lost less lives than France or England, I am omitting the obvious-Germany lost even more. But hey! they were on the opposite side! (Yes! I do know about demographics and using numbers on a per-capita basis)
Who was it who flung these thousands of young lives these infamously ill-prepared, barely- trained troops into the bloody cauldron of France and Turkey? Bingo, you’ve got it; Winston Churchill.
He was excellent at Public Relations-he never missed a photo call-and had an ephemeral use as a war leader for England in WWII. He was all blood and wind. Other people’s blood, his own heated wind.
He continued with his desire to waste troops throughout WWII, but at that stage he had some responsible commanders who weren’t so inclined. Bomber Harris being one hideous exception.
Then your hero set out to meet Roosevelt and Stalin at Yalta. Unfortunately neither Churchill or Roosevelt were up to the job. Pal Josef Stalin had them both for breakfast.
Who would I have admired for sheer ability, truthfulness and displaying derring-do leadership during WWII? The American George Patton was a brilliant commander. A total anachronism. Sorta West Point meets old Europe with a bang. But he was a cultured man. Bi-lingual in French and English.
And who did I least admire? That phoney, God-loving, devious, cringing little creature called General Montgomery.
Can I prove any of this. Oh yes.
VENISE - Wasn’t Churchill a womaniser too? The god botherers who abhor ‘infidelity’ but hero worship someone like Churchill are interesting, to say the least. Hitler used to quote god too! I’ve been surprised by some of the quotes I’ve read about him! There you go! Churchill indeed! Gee, next someone will laud Robert Menzies, and how good a PM he was blah blah! He was more interested in looking after the ambitions of Robert Menzies than this country! All we need now is a monarchist who worships the nazi loving royals and we’ll have convered it all!
Isn’t it amazing that MartinR can make something admirable about Abbott’s lying behaviour, but attack you on some offhand remark that wasn’t even aimed at him! I watched the Kerry O’Brien’s interview with abbott again yesterday and it was even worse when I saw him again. I don’t know why Kerry smiled when he did though! I thought it removed some of the seriousness of his assertions, or maybe he couldn’t believe what he was hearing! My kids used to think I was god when they were young, as I could always tell when they were having me on, or worse, telling lies! It never fails! I’m not a behaviourist? but people get fidgety when they lie - they blink more, and as someone pointed out on one of these blogs, Abbott does that ‘noise’ with his tongue, teeth and lips, which is really annoying and gross, and stammers and blinks and says ‘ahr’ several times. He should’ve quit while he was going OK in that interview! As I used to tell my kids - ‘liars have to have good memories, and you don’t - you’ve got to remember every little lie, and it’s almost impossible to do’? Whereas, people who tell the truth don’t have a problem!
Don’t let the bastards grind you down! Shock horror that we might support each other against paternalistic and revolting patriarchal behaviour! We should ‘take our medicine’ from those who know better??????????That’s MartinR’s attitude!
‘Damned women, don’t they know their place??’ I wonder if he’s read Damned Whores and God’s Police! Good book, must read it again - soon!
LIZ: If Winston Churchill wasn’t gay-and there is nothing I’ve read would suggest this-and if he mixed in his own social circles, which I’m sure he did. People jumped into bed with terrific abandon.
Waiters and door-men were very tactful and hostesses giving weekend parties would indicate that she had put you in such and such room, to be with your current lover.
I dare say the poor bastards had to do something energetic in those cold and draughty palaces. Let’s face it. Sex is better fun than Croquet.
He drank three bottles of brandy a day, smoked those horrid cigars and got Alzeimer’s Syndrome in later life. It’s astonishing his body lasted as long as it did.
Menzies was an odious snob. He had political smarts, and he was very fond of women. He had a torrid affair with the wife of a newspaper owner; don’t know which one.
Hitler was a Catholic and gave it a bit of lip-service during the war, after all he knew Pope Pious XII.
I suppose you know about his sordid sex life?
Anyway, thanks for the support; cheers V
LIZ: Just to make sure, it was Hitler’s sex life I was talking about.
VENISE - I’m glad you cleared that up! If Churchil drank all that booze every day, you’d wonder at his ‘extra curricular activities’ being an option?
Hitler was a Catholic? Gee, I bet that gets up some noses? Do some pollies admit to this? Explains a lot doesn’t it? Wasn’t Pope Pious x11 the one who was bumped off? My late sister read that book, ‘In God’s Name’ was it? She said it was hard going to read. Had to almost write down the many names, as it just got so difficult to keep track of them all. I also recall her saying, that the cc had shares/part owned? a company that made contraceptives? I think that’s funny! They might even have shares in Ansell or ?? Wouldn’t that be a hoot? It makes me angry when I think, that she had 2 kids, only 1 1/2 good lungs (caused by having measles twice before the age of 1) and then felt the need to ‘shop around’ for advice re contraceptives - finally, to ‘establish’ her period. Just shows the power of the cc. If anyone had good reason not to risk another pregnancy it was her. Poor little love! Finally, she died as the result of a car accident! Only 46.
LIZ: Yes, you did mention it before, very very sad.
All sorts of popes have been killed off, but in modern times it was Pope John Paul I who was bumped off (1984) Maiden name =Albino Luciani.
Also he created more saints, as in the Mary MacKillop farce, than any other pope in history (4000) and today his record still stands.
The Vatican is heavily invested in sharemarkets throughout the world, and if you think they’d pause from investing in a company making condoms you would be naïve.
I’ve had a wonderful day. I do not think! I got into a row with a man called LACQUERED STUDIO.
As you know, I don’t shy away from trading insults. Among the ensuing posts of the battle he included the following:
The Church …
1) isn’t armed
2) doesn’t murder anyone
3) doesn’t practice female genital mutilation
4) doesn’t seek to establish a theocracy
5) doesn’t force Orwellian absolutism on the entire population at gunpoint
6) promotes secular democracy
Exactly as you see it here. This was followed by a big blast of shit because I hadn’t
answered his questions.
Not unnaturally I didn’t know what he was talking about. In the ensuing fracas he was so odious I would venture to suggest he set a new world record. (It’s all there under a Bernard Keane article which includes the words Towel Heads)
Surprise surprise I hit back. He has badgered me all day to answer his so called questions (he’s a Catholic, I think) plus wanting me to explain the meaning of Oz Taliban.
I did agree to take the time to do all that work ONLY if he gave me a gracious apology.
If he does I’ll give him a thumbnail sketch. I actually sat there thinking: WTF should I have to go through all that work. I don’t see the point, because he doesn’t want the answers at all. All he wants is a platform for his own imagined talents.
You, and a lot of other people, know my thoughts on religion, and every time something happens in the Catholic world I get those fun comments like “Don’t tell Venise it was a Catholic!” Which I enjoy, I love a laugh.
He wants answers plus footnotes and a bibliography (he didn’t state that yet). Honestly, WTF should I do all that work, and for what?
I agree with you re Winston Churchill and the drink. Perhaps he didn’t drink so much when younger?
Anyway, I’m off to get something to eat.
Cheers V
VENISE - Sorry! I’m impressed by how much you know about the cc. Most of what I know is via experience and subsequent info, but I’m not really interested in reading about ‘them’? Too depressing, and it would take time away from other interests. The cc doesn’t have any credibility as far as I’m concerned. I hate everything they stand for, and most of all I hate their power, spelt POWER! I’m even angry with some of my siblings because they still insist on being conned! Yuk! Makes me want to scream!
The interesting thing is, I wouldn’t joke about anything to do with the cc, because I know only too well how much suffering and anguish they have and still do cause. I can’t laugh about them - even after all these years. And recent stories on 7.30 Report and Lateline were very moving and confronting - the cc is still saying one thing to the public, and treating victims like shit on the other. Disgusting is a well used word, but is appropriate here I believe! I’ve spoken to too many people who’ve suffered abuse from one ‘authority’ or other, and I take it all very seriously - for them!
I’ll take a look at today’s articles on Crikey and follow the discussion. People are amazing aren’t they? so many of those defending what I find are indefensible positions are men? They really are from a different planet aren’t they? What’s this macho stuff? I don’t get it at all! Hang in there, you’re probably at least twice as intelligent and knowledgeable than they are, which will drive them insane! Why don’t you behave yourself and be like a real woman - lady? ‘Be niyce’?
Go get ‘em! I’m sort of half watching Australian Story, then 4 Corners promises to be interesting, about The Banks? and I’m keen to see what Media Watch has to say about the David Campbell issue!
Take care!
LIZ: By now you will know what the programmes were like. I thought Malcolm Fraser was interesting. To think I joined protest marches to denounce him. But he was a very different person in those days.
There was a good article in The Age about the sacerdotal sodomites of Oz, and the ease with which they escaped justice, our form of justice, the Catholic justice, as per usual, was instantaneous and astonishingly objective. And my name is John McCain. Ha! They were not defrocked. I think it was Saturday 15-Sunday 16 May. Worth reading.
I’ve got to go to bed now, hang in there. Elan is a human being, although sometimes she sells herself badly.
Cheers
V.
PS: I make the occasional joke re the cc I don’t mean to. It’s just that humour gives me the ability to see the offending parties for what they are.
“Elan is a human being, although sometimes she sells herself badly.”
YOU have the brass necked gall to put this! Pretentious prat!
What IS it with you two? I’ve said elsewhere that you are like conjoined twins!
You use these forums for gossipy girly chats!!
Pop off to Barbie.com
Neither of you ‘gels’ should be making a judgment on the merits or otherwise, of others.
ELAN - Yes, perhaps, so what? This post started 6 days ago. Not many around now, so why not have a chat? Free world - still? isn’t it? I/we can make a judgement on whoever I want. I’ll make a judgement on the cc any day, every day, if I wish? The same about lots of things. What’s it to you? I don’t care whether you agree or not!
Could it be that we’re friends? Gee, that’s awful isn’t it? It’s better if people are fighting is it? Do you think you’re the only one with the right to make judgements? You’re pretty good at it - making judgements that is? You’ve already put us in the “conjoined twins” section and candidates for the “barbie club”? Go to bed!
See that? Again. Who said you couldn’t make a judgment on the ..er, cc?
What a pain in the rrr’s you’ve both been today. You’ve done every damn thing you could to confuse the issues, and twist things around,-and the constant righteous indignation is nauseating!
Now the snippy little miaow thing about ‘go to bed’.
Stop being such gossipy girlies, and grow up.
ELAN: snooze YAWN snooze.
A malaise not restricted to one topic I note.
However a semi comatose delivery knows no boundaries.
I appreciate your candour, it explains things clearly,- but you really must do something about your yawning and snoozing.
As you can well see it is having a devastating effect on the quality of your posts.
ELAN - this is a week old. We can have a chat if we like. The last time I looked, freedom of speech was still alive and well in this country, isn’t it? Surely, if the moderator allows it, what’s your problem? Everyone else has moved on - what’s stopping you? No need to resort to ‘patting us on the head’ nonsense. Just go to another site! Simple! Problem solved! No, you’re enjoying it, admit it!
I’m not.
@CRIKEY
A sure sign of your bias & thereby your irrelevance is the way you let fruit loops like Liz & Venetian rave & rant, curse & vilify, etc because of their political leaning.
MICHAEL - You’re such a boy! Of course, upstanding, intelligent and mature aged men like you fulfill such an important and uplifting role on these posts? How about you acknowledge your sexist, bullying, ranting, patriarchal, patronising, offensive, ignorant, narrow, subjective and otherwise idiotic prejudices against anyone who disagrees with your misogynist rantings! Proof you this is the fact, that men also disagree with you, quite hotly at times, but like a true chauvinistic p***k you just have to ‘bash’ women up don’t you? Do it in your personal life too, do you? wouldn’t surprise me one bit!
@Michael…you have the gall, the cheek, the audacity to accuse others of ranting, raving, cursing, vilifying. May I suggest you sit yourself down in a quiet corner of whatever space you use and go back over the last 2 weeks blogs on the topics you have contributed to. You will know very well what to look for, read what you have written and then get back to this blog and tell us you are pure of intent and action, without ever involving yourself in that, which you accuse others. I have a very good memory and I know what your answer should be.
David I like you - in a patronizing sort of way.
You’re not too bright but can be quite funny, though somewhat anal, perhaps that’s what’s funny about you.
However my boy, getting on your tippy toes & all thingy with me, will not gain you favor with our two beloved female fruits. They will turn on you for sport at the first hint of PMS
DAVID @LIZ: MICHAEL is pure poison. He does rant and rave; he defies reason-as only a good religionist- Catholic- can. He is a liar; he sets traps. He had the nerve to ask me some questions. Because he failed to add the question marks I didn’t know they were questions. So in the next post he bullied me for not answering his questions.
He lacks a moral compass and thinks entirely of himself in isolation from the world around him.
He is devious, devoid of humour, treacherous to a fault. He runs out of the kitchen whenever there’s a bit of heat there and he is quick to invoke other to help him.
He possesses all of the bad qualities of fundamentalist religionists and is honest in one thing only; his immoral crusade to reduce everyone down to his own lying level.
He doesn’t even have the guts to use his full name. He is evil, and gives your average gutter a good name.
R.I.P
@LIZ
Quote “MICHAEL - You’re such a boy!”
At least someone in this chumpy forum is.
All the rest are either amazons, ferals or fags.
@VENETIAN
Yes but will you dance with me?
Mwah!
“He doesn’t even have the guts to use his full name. He is evil…..”
You…, YOU…rotten foul fiend from hell Micky!! You need to get together with that vile abomination TwoShillings-and produce the spawn of Satan.
Or have a nice cup of tea.
Not to worry. I’ve been moving a tree, so I’ve been out.
Now my back is.
I’m unable to appreciate the scintillatin’ personality and sparklin’ wit of the Barbie’s!
MICHAEL - You are gross!
@ELAN
Well thankyou my little peach. Very nice of you to notice.
Yes I can be quite hellish, even rotten.
I find that most women love that in a man.
It’s the inferiority thing…you know what I mean.
wink!
@LIZ
Thanks baby.
@VENETIAN
And by the way Venetian, I do have a moral compass.
It points South by South West - I find that aspects suits me.
MICHAEL: Not gross. Just wrapped in his own delusion.
Am I an amazon, feral, or fag Michael?
ELAN: You are yesterday’s meat.
MICHAEL: But, I like big men, brainy men; men who are all man. Which excludes you on three strikes.
@VENETIAN
Tahdaam!
A big tick on all three counts princess.
Looks like I’m your date!
@ELAN
Your the Tortilla. (old Spanish saying)
I tried to log in as Tortilla!! Gawd! Things are bad.
BUT I am thrilled by your compliment Vissy! You obviously know that the very best meat is yesterdays! Blending, maturing, taking up all the flavours!
I’m humbled by your accolade. Thank-you.
____________________
To the original subject: now..what? 231 posts. All (more or less!!), on Abbott’s lies.
They ALL lie. And we will make no gains in improving the political system in this country, until we accept that it is not just those whom we oppose, that distort/deceive/ and simply lie,-it is ALL politicians.
Sod it all! Everyone lies! What is so damned unforgivable is that those who take decisions that effect our lives; that use our money,-are the ones who most manipulate and deceive us most of all.
It is NOT restricted to one political persuasion. Yet the Right cries foul! The Left cries foul!…. and the beat goes on.
What sheep we all are.
When will people who comment learn that the sort version of ‘you are’ = you’re and not ‘your’?
“The problem with someone like you is you don’t want someone’s answers. All you want is to display your own imagined talents. ”
How true.
PS: Short version of ‘you are’ =you’re, NOT your.
@VENETIAN
“Your” - possessive adjective
1. Belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing
2. Belonging to or associated with any person in general
eg. “Venetian my little princess, looks like I’m “YOUR” date.”
I can give you a definition of”DATE” but it might offend.
sigh,………………………………I doknow that……………….echo, echo,…echo,..
And…..AND.., further more, when will people learn to leave a gap after using bold.
They should be dealt with severely.
MICHAEL: This is gonna be a shock to your system, so brace yourself.
I wasn’t referring to you! Calm down. I’m fanning you metaphorically. I was reading through the various comments in yesterday’s Crikey. Had seen this error several times, and thought to add the advice whenever.
It happened to be here. It was concidental.
Signed
THE VENETIAN. Think Barcarolle in Tales of Hoffman. All that sex, wonderful music, and gondolas.
@VENISE
LOL
MICHAEL:
VENISE- How do you get the smiley faces - on Windows???
“Barcarolle” now that takes me back. I used to play that on the piano - I loved it! My little mum was a qualified piano teacher, although she didn’t use this qualification - she was too busy having kids, but about 6 out of the 9 kids learnt, and I really loved it - one of my regrets is not having the opportunity to keep it up all these years - I was only a few yrs away from being able to sit for the final exam myself. My late sister and I used to play duets, and we’d have a ton of fun - sometimes to Mum’s horror! Playing ‘A Summer Ride’ at Melb cup day speed, instead of a sedate little cantor? Mum would say, ‘girls, girls’ you’re playing that too fast’? We’d wait until she was back in the kitchen(a big house) and off we’d go again - devils!
don’t respond to the rude blokes, gee they’re so damned childish? My sons stopped that rubbish in their early teens? I keep expecting them to poke their tongue out or something, just like little kids do!
Incidently, another of Abbott’s lies - He insists on referring to asylum seekers as “illegals”. I wish someone would take him to court or something! It’s on that truck and the TV ads, although I watch such little commercial TV that I’ve missed them - I saw it on the news or ABC somewhere! It is not illegal to seek asylum in any country in the world - regardless of the mode of transport - boat, plane or carrier pidgeon! I wish Julian Burnside would get on to him over it!
Been doing the grocery shopping with my mate - I have the car, he wheels the trolley!
Now to unpack etc.
Catch up with you sometime later. I’m going to a one day planning day tomorrow - (for the women’s health centre, where I’m on the Board) - future policies etc!
LIZ: I don’t know about windows, but believe the following can be accessed by Macs and by PCs.
;( I just put this in to see what happens ; (
There’s another one for danger its :l: but I don’t remember if it’s meant to be lower case ‘l’ or upper case I or exclamation mark
if you can work it out please tell me.
I’m sure you could almost make your own up. But I wouldn’t make book on it, because I’m not computer literate.
Cheers
V
PS: It worked.
@VNISE+LIZ
My girls!
You clever things.
I think that’s why I loves ya both so much.
MODERATOR: MICHAEL can’t help himself.
Do you make exceptions for the mentally impaired?
VENISE - You’re brilliant! Thank you! Do you have a notebook, PC and/or Macintosh?
I should have a little practice! But, I have to wait until I press ‘post comment’ to see if it works?
Every time Michael shows himself, or JamesK or MartinR we should do this ;!
cheers
What happened? I did some TAFE courses too! Didn’t do this though! :!
LIZ: Snerk (that’s me laughing, I got it from First Dog)snerk, snerk. And thanks for the compliment.
No, I don’t have an lpad, or a notebook. Merely a fairly big desktop, and an ¡phone, both of them are Macs.
This Ipad looks very impressive, and necessary for someone like FD who does his artwork on an Iphone-I think.
I would not be surprised to learn that the cost of running it could be equally impressive..
It is with regret, as I love toys, I’m going to leave it alone, until such time as the price comes down and I’ve discovered the costs involved.
)
A colon plus a bracket
= : ) OR 
= danger as : ! :, or were you wanting something else?
As for the symbols, they’ve been passed on to me by various bods, and I thought you’d like to have them as well.
Great to hear from you. Luv V
VENISE - Did I tell you that my eldest son has bought me a brand spanking new PC with a 23” you beaut screen? He gave me the two I’ve had, of which I’m extremely grateful(he pays my Broadband too?) -they were pre-loved (in his business) but this one will be my first new one? With enough memory to last me for ????ever? I’m very excited about it - he and his family should be able to come down in a couple? of weeks? Then I’ll probably spend even more time on it than now!
I’m doing something wrong re the symbols - the keys aren’t pressed together are they? I have a keyboard that’s about 7 yrs old as it’s one of those ergonomically designed, with the ‘split keys’ - better for people with stuffed hands, fingers, wrists etc like me! I may get the latest design as there’s more short cut keys at the top and sides aren’t there? About $85 - I’ll save up?
I’m going to have to decide whether I’ll even read the bullshit about asylum seekers from now on - until the election anyway? The whole lies, bullshit and just plain bastardry around the issue is really very damaging I find. It upsets me terribly, and the media, including the ABC are repeating everything Abbott and Morrison say, but no counter comments. If I hear “illegals” again I’ll bust something! I listen to the ABC radio all day, as I’m interested in keeping up etc, but it’s also company. I’m interested to see if the ABC TV news covers Abbott at Villawood yesterday! What a gutless, disgusting thing to do! They(detainees) put on a demo for him - good for them!
I was only thinking when I last saw that great ad with the wonderful late Fred Hollows, re his eye treatments that saved the sight of who knows how many people? What a gorgeous man. The Michaels (both of them) and JamesK , John James etc, would decry him as he was a communist or at least a ‘leftwing person’, and yet, look at his attitude to human beings, and how his work is still continuing, after his death - what do these other bastards contribute to other human beings? Bloody nought! They’d ridicule Fred, while they’re not even close to him as a person, if they had 50 more lifetimes, they’d never look like getting close! Self gratituous greed and lust for wealth and power - that’s what they support! They’re obviously OK with human beings dying on the open seas, just to win the racist haters? How do they live with themselves? While this country keeps on killing people in Afghanistan & Iraq!
They probably all trotted off to mass this morning, and listened to a sermon on compassion or some such cc hypocrisy? Probably played Solitaire on their Ipods, with frequent big yawns? Fred was no god botherer, and probably operated/trained on Sundays, just like any other day! Lovely man!
This is apparently currently on the Sydney Morning Herald website …
Comments 238
Illustration: Simon Bosch
Rarely has a government promised so much, spent so much, said so much, and launched so many nationwide programs, and delivered so little value for money and expectation. Two years of Kevin Rudd has produced 20 years of debt, and most of it cannot be blamed on the global financial crisis. This alphabet soup is self-inflicted
Asylum seekers. Unless the government can show otherwise, it appears that about 98 per cent of asylum-seekers are getting Australian residency. In contrast, the latest figures from the United Nations refugee agency show most asylum applications worldwide are rejected. The bulging Christmas Island detention centre has become a grossly expensive sham and a mockery of a core election promise.
Beijing. Supposedly Rudd’s strong point, the relationship with China deteriorated badly last year after a series of serious missteps with Beijing.
Computers in schools. A million computers promised to schools, one for every student. This turned out to be much harder than it sounded.
Debt and deficit. The Rudd government inherited a massive $90 billion financial firewall when it came to office, via a federal budget surplus, the Future Fund and two infrastructure funds. In two years the budget has gone from $20 billion in surplus to $58 billion in deficit. Net federal debt has gone from zero to a projection of between $130 billion and $180 billion. It took the previous government 10 years to dismantle the $96 billion debt mountain that it inherited. It took Rudd one year to build it back up again.
ETS. The Copenhagen climate conference was a disaster. Rudd’s emissions trading scheme is abstract, complex, expensive and polls show about 80 per cent of Australians do not understand or trust it. A T-shirt produced by Newcastle steelworkers distils the political problem: “Rudd’s ETS: Higher Prices. Lost Jobs. 0.001 degrees cooler.”
Fuelwatch. Big promise, empty outcome.
Grocerywatch. Ditto.
Hospitals. Ditto.
India disaster. Last year Australia degraded relations with the two emerging Asian superpowers.
Juvenile justice. The plight of young Aborigines is worse than ever, with ideology trumping pragmatism. Children are shipped off to violent foster families while government exhibits a mesmerised inertia in the face of pockets of endemic violence.
Kaiser. The aptly named Mike Kaiser, former ALP Queensland state secretary and state MP, became the umpteenth poster boy for the Labor patronage machine this month by landing a $450,000-a-year lobbying job with the national broadband network. The job was not advertised.
League tables. The government’s one-size-fits-all league tables for schools, plagued by glitches and misleading data, is another centralised scheme that serves as a substitute for tackling the union-imposed rigidities on teacher performance.
Migration. Permanent migration to Australia surged 550,000 during the first two years of the Rudd government, the highest two-year increase in history. This is at odds with the government’s rhetoric on reducing Australia’s carbon footprint. It was also never mentioned before the election.
National broadband network. Last year the Rudd government spent $17 million looking for a private partner to co-build the network. The process yielded nothing. The government will now build and operate the network itself at a cost of $43 billion. A money sink.
Opposition theft. The Rudd government inherited the strongest budget position and banking sector of any major Western economy, which protected Australia from the global financial crisis. The government pretends this was all its own work.
Power. The national solar power rebate is a political debacle. The GreenPower scheme has failed. The renewable energy trading certificates scheme is in disarray.
Question time. Question time has blown out by 50 per cent over its traditional running time because of long ministerial answers and incessant points of order, while the time devoted to answering real questions, rather than Dorothy Dixers, has shrunk to less than 30 per cent of question time; a blatant corruption of the process.
Roof insulation. Send in the fraud squad. A good idea gone bad. Rampant false billing and over-charging. Cowboys everywhere. People dead. Houses unsafe. Systemic overspending. A hapless bureaucracy detached from the realities of the building industry.
School spending. The $16 billion Building the Education Revolution scheme is bloated with systemic overspending and over-charging. The problems were encapsulated by a builder who told me: “My company is involved in the BER work and it involves mismanagement, overcharging, schools being railroaded into decisions not in their interests, all hidden behind a smokescreen. It is the country’s most expensive political stunt ever.” Another money sink.
Tax increases. The federal budget in May will begin to reveal the consequences of panic, hubris, overspending and waste as the government seeks to offset its profligacy with higher fees and taxes. Superannuation was just the start.
Union power. The unions, having bankrolled Labor’s election campaign in 2007, have received their payback, with an increase in union rights and powers. Union muscle-flexing is back, from the mining sector to small business. Endemic corruption, blackmail and violence in the building industry was finally curbed by the Australian Building and Construction Commission. Julia Gillard is shutting it down.
Vanity. See B, K, O, Q and U.
Whitlamesque. Spendthrift programs. Empty rhetoric. Self-congratulation. Deficit spending. Debt blowout. Two years of the Rudd government produces 20 years of debt and poses the question: worse than Whitlam?
X Y Z Generations X, Y and Z They will be stuck with the bill.
Source: The Sydney Morning Herald
MICHAEL - “Endemic corruption, blackmail and violence in the building industry was finally curbed by the Australian Building and Construction Commission. Julia Gillard is shutting it down.”
Just repeating untruths that others put to print, doesn’t mean they’re correct. Show me the evidence, where the Cole Royal Commission pointed to just one proven case of corruption? Also show me, when and where the same Commission even referred to the many cases of absolute and dangerous working conditions that they forced on their employees- how many employers were even ‘chastised’ for their unsafe working environments, even the refusal to provide clean drinking water?
How can you justify the powers of the ABCC but want us to believe that you believe in the Rule of Law, justice, presumption of innocence; the right to remain silent, and to chose your own lawyer to represent you? How just is it, to make it a criminal offence to discuss your work day or order to appear before the ABCC with your partner/wife/husband? If you attend a bar-b-q in your own time, and discuss your work with your colleagues, should you be hauled before the ABCC to disclose what you discussed? Should you be denied the ‘right to silence’? How about ‘presumption of innocence’? Ark Tribe’s facing 6 months jail for doing just that! If I lived in SA I’d be in court to support him!
How many politicians have dedicated themselves to occupational health and safety that gave people the skills and knowledge to rescue the Beaconsfield miners in Tasmania? Not Bloody one! But Howard’s WorstChoices would deny this vital training via the relevant union - and that point was made very clear during the successful rescue BY THEIR MATES - who’d undergone training via their Union, plus some co-workers who were engineers etc!
When it comes to the so-called defecit? When it comes to the big billions! Wasn’t it Howard who gave hefty tax cuts to middle and upper income people to the tune of $35 or so BILLION! Didn’t he do that twice? Each time over a 4 yr period? Didn’t he offer $6 million per minute in his speech re the Election Campaign of 2004? I don’t think Howard/Costello were good managers of the economy, only managers of getting re-elected! As for self advertising and big govts, the Howard yrs made history on both counts!
If you have a job Michael, how come you can spend time blogging here? In a position of authority are you? Probably sack a mere worker who did likewise! Not bludging are you? Doing your boss out of his/her invested money?