Senate inquiries: sport yes, abuse no
|
Sometimes the Senate does it best to live up to Keating’s immortal description of it as “unrepresentative swill”. Like yesterday. After revealing extraordinary evidence of abusive practices within Scientology in November, Senator Nick Xenophon undertook to initiate a Senate inquiry into the cult. Subsequently, he said yesterday, he was encouraged to broaden the focus of the inquiry away from the cult itself, and instead he moved for an inquiry into whether Australia should consider adopting the UK’s “Public Benefit Test” as a criterion for whether charitable and religious institutions can enjoy tax-exempt status. The concept of “public benefit” is already built into the test for whether charities and religions can gain tax-exempt status. The issue is how the test is interpreted and applied. The UK version specifically includes the idea of net public benefit, in which benefits are assessed against harm. Crikey understands that Xenophon’s “encouragement” to move away from a Scientology focus to a Public Benefit test focus came from both the Coalition and the Government. But that didn’t stop both sides yesterday refusing to back the inquiry anyway. Only the Greens backed Xenophon’s motion. The South Australian senator is deeply unhappy with the way he was set up by the major parties over the inquiry. Labor’s reasoning was that these issues have all been dealt with before. Special Minister of State Joe Ludwig pointed to a 2001 report commissioned by the Howard Government on the definition of charities and religious organisations, which discussed the public benefit issue — although it doesn’t grapple with the specific issue Xenophon raised, of net benefit and assessing benefits against harm. The Coalition — which apparently seriously considered backing Xenophon — opposed it because, they said, it would turn into a “religious witch hunt”. Both Eric Abetz and Corey Bernardi used the motion as an opportunity to attack the Greens and environmentalist groups. Bernardi even compared Islam to Scientology. “We can have a look at the Koranic text that says, if you commit apostasy and renounce your faith, you actually are meant to be put to death,” he said. Abetz said disgruntled and abused former Scientologists could go to the media because there was a “free press”, as if Scientology didn’t have an extensive track record of using courts to keep information out of the public domain. This is the Senate that in recent years has conducted inquiries into such critical matters as the Grocerychoice website, the reporting of sports news, whether there should be an AFL team in Tasmania, and an inquiry into people who don’t even live in Australia. Not to forget holding an inquiry entirely based on the fervid imaginings of a Treasury bureaucrat. The Senate has no trouble conducting inquiries into any matter, no matter how trivial or beyond the reach of rational public policy, if there’s a political edge to be gained or it wants to ride on the coat-tails of some community issue. But an inquiry into whether Australian taxpayers should continue to subsidise the practices of Scientology, including practices such as coerced abortion among members of the cult’s elite “Sea Org”, slave-like labour conditions and exploitation of members. Next week, Xenophon will return to his original motion for an inquiry into Scientology. |
|
|
|
201 Comments
Here’s a tip though.. If people are so deluded they join these silly cults that is not the problem of the rest of us.
If they are abused, they go to the police and lay charges.
I move that the Senate hold an inquiry into Senate Inquiries.
Exactly right shepherdmarilyn! Its up to the non-political police to investigate abuse, not the Senate.
Xenophon should go back to doing what he was elected to do. He is not on CSI: Canberra.
A very sound analysis of a problem not necessarily limited to Scientology. Xenophon should be supported here.
This enquiry will never happen. The Churches that back both of the majors would quake in fear at the prospect of any kind of close scrutiny of religious organisations. Tackling Scientology will mean some level of blowback onto other religions, and the major parties simply won’t risk that.
SHEPHERDMARILYN - I think it should be the problem of the rest of us. They’re conned yes, but women who are raped in the general commmunity or bashed in their own homes are protected by the law, many of them have been conned too, and our society is slowing realising, that being bashed by a husband/partner is not ‘secret family business’ it’s a matter for the community to take action over. It’s dangerous/lethal for a woman every 7-10 days in this country, and if children only witness abuse, it’s now recognised as child abuse. Why isn’t the same criteria attached to all? I don’t give a toss what they call themselves. All those brave people(wrote letters to Nick Zenophan, or interviewed on 4 Corners) have come forward and publicly given their testimony, and the ‘peoples house’ has let them down. Where’s Abbott’s moral outrage? Where’s Pell’s? Just as I thought! Bloody hypocritical bastards! Where’s Rudd’s so called christian principles? And the women of both the major parties, including the Nationals - appeasers of thuggish and bullying behaviour!
Just because people join a religious cult or organisation, it shouldn’t mean that it’s the people’s personal responsibility if they’re treated in a criminal manner. I think the govt inquiry should also include the Exclusive Brethren and their practices - they also go against the Family Law of the country among other horrendous human miseries - which have allegedly included trying to coerce young girls who were subjected to sexual abuse into not giving evidence. How a govt or opposition in this country could make excuses for these alleged criminals is beyond me? The only conclusion an intelligent person can come to, is that they must be donating heaps to the major parties, and so they don’t WANT to rock the boat!
It reminds me of the catholic church and others re sexual abuse by clergy or scout leaders or ??Why were the churches allowed to pay off the complainants, and the police also allowed the perpetrators to move away or even allowed to continue with their abuse? It wasn’t until the victims received support, grew strong, and took them on that church leaders were forced to change their behaviours, but sadly, we still hear them both living in denial, and forcing victims into silence! Well, hopefully it’s happening again? I hope the victims don’t give up! I hope Nick doesn’t give up either!Otherwise the bullies win, and they win while we subsidise their profits? That makes me bloody angry as well! They make millions on the backs of slave labour and thuggish behaviour - they don’t pay tax on their land or many dealings - we pick up the tab for that? No, I won’t remain silent over this disgusting situation! I hate bullies!
Can you imagine the Murdoch camp(and probably all I would hope?) if a union or ALP branch was engaging in such practices? Insisting on women having abortions if they’re in a particular sector? Or working for almost nothing? Slave labour? Insisting on no children etc. Wow! They’d be in Court, at least the court of public opinion in a flash! Deregestered at least? the public backlash would be huge, as indeed it should? Why does being a so-called ‘religion’ grant people immunity from the law of the land and plain simple decent behaviours? It shouldn’t! It musn’t?
No, they don’t go to the police until, if ever, until many years later. Why is that?
It’s because they are:
a) terrified;
b) emotionally incapable of taking action (it takes some people years for them to begin to be able to face talking about their experience after escaping);
c) under enormous pressure not to cause any public relations “flap” for the church, something they get sent to “ethics” for or for which they can be declared a “suppressive person”. In addition to the eternal consequences of being declared (they believe), a person declared will also be disconnected from all contact with their scientologist family and friends;
d) persuaded by the cult that if they see anything wrong with the “church” that’s because they are a degraded being - it’s not the church’s fault (if you’ve been taught that from childhood that’s not easy to shake); and
e) of the understanding that they have no right to make a complaint to authorities - Scientologist have very often been required to sign copious “legal” documents (often on video) stating that they were treated well and have no complaints and waiving all rights against the church and saying they will never take legal action against the church (documentation that both affects the state of mind of the victim and their credibility as a witness, and thereby the likelihood of successful prosecution).
Marilyn, it’s everybody’s problem when numerous businesses run by Scientology go into liquidation, Scientologists are bankrupted leaving businesses and employees with unpaid debts. And it’s everyone’s problem when mentally ill people are taken off their meds and that impacts their capacity to function independently, with all the social and economic impact that has for the community. In the worst scenarios, crimes are committed (eg. Linda Walicki, who murdered her father and sister and tried to kill her mother, due to psychosis).
How many people are in this silly cult world wide? Enough to worry about? Everyone knows they are ludicrous so why join in the first place and why is it the senate’s problem?
The senate is supposed to investigate government issues, not silly cults.
Alena offers a strong case. Let’s hope the inquiry happens. And if there is fall out for other religious bodies… they can weather it.
ShepherdMarilyn, are you being sponsored by Scientology in your comments?
The Senate investigates all sorts of things that don’t affect “the rest of us”. So do the police. That isn’t the criteria for whether public resources are invested in inquiries and investigations. If “everyone” knew Scientology to be ludicrous, there wouldn’t be so many vulnerable people joining and falling under the spell of this organisation.
The question is whether the organisation should have tax exempt status (ie the state foregoes tax revenue because Scientology claims to be a religion). There is a real public interest element in this question. Many countries have investigated Scientology and found it to be wanting, eg. a conviction for fraud in France.
As for the Australian VP saying health professionals should stay out of religion, maybe Scientology should stay out of health care. Oh, but it does, by telling everyone that psychiatry is crap. Silly me.
Alena V’s response is the reason why these things should be investigated by the courts and police, rather than politicians.
From the court case of Linda Walicki (R v WALICKI [2008]) (who was found not guilty due to mental illness)
30 At about this time, concern about the mental health of the accused had led to the arrangements for her to be seen by Dr Lucire. The evidence includes some oblique references to an association of Michael Walicki with the cult of Scientology and its apparent reluctance to recognize any benefit which might flow from the practice of psychiatry. Despite these references it appears that it was Michael Walicki who sought out Dr Lucire who was a qualified and practising psychiatrist. There are also references to his beliefs in the maintenance of health by particular diets and the acquisition for his daughter of some non-psychiatric medicines. There is nothing which demonstrates that any act or omission by Michael Walicki in the pursuit of his asserted beliefs was of any causative consequence to the mental condition of the accused at the time of the acts of killing and wounding.
You can’t blame scientology for this. Its a tragic result of a mental illness.
I don’t like paying tax either, what do you have to do to become a “religion”?
Scott, I understand that Michael Walicki decided he was going to choose the next psychiatrist. Dr Lucire (who is not now licensed to see patients as a psychiatrist, due to action by the Medical Board - the conditions on her licence are worth reading). Dr Lucire is an ally of the Citizen’s Commission on Human Rights - the Scientology entity that drives its activity against psychiatry.
I agree that it is ideal for allegations of illegality to be investigated by the police and courts. For the reasons I’ve identified, that rarely happens with scientologists.
So, what about civil court action? Well, many of the same reasons why victims don’t go to the police also apply to civil action. Very few individuals can take on Scientology in the courts. The Church of Scientology is renowned as one of THE most aggressive in litigation in the world.
Two examples:
When it sued Time Magazine (unsuccessfully) for $416 million dollars over a 1991 article, the litigation dragged on for 10 years and cost Time millions of dollars. (Richard Behar, Time Magazine, Scientology: The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power May 06, 1991, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865,00.html )
When Larry Wollersheim, a former Sea Organisation member, sued the Church of Scientology civilly for his false imprisonment and other abuses, it took - wait for it - 22 years from the beginning of his case until he received payment. In what is STILL the most expensive civil litigation ever in Los Angeles (even more expensive than the OJ Simpson trial), the Church of Scientology commenced 5 other actions against Wollersheim and others, even suing the entire bench of the California Court in an attempt to get the judges all disqualified, and took the matter to the US Supreme Court twice. He eventually received a payment of $8.7 million, which gave him little or nothing after paying his legal fees (Tony Ortega, Village Voice, Scientology’s Crushing Defeat, June 24 2008, http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-06-24/news/Scientologys-Crushing-Defeat/full ).
Klewso nails it somewhat pithily here, this is of interest to us all, because we’re all taxpayers. Exempt organisations like these mean we pay more tax.
KLEWSO: It’s easy. Face east or West where the sun is in your eyes and concentrate on the little specks in your eyes. Concentrate even harder until you see a little orange man coming out of the sunrise/set.
Get two or three neighbours who are short-sighted, get them to believe they can see him. Tell the world you’ve seen God, turn around thrice and go out with your begging bowl. You’ll get donations. After the first couple of hundred dollars you approach the government for money. And bingo!
With the amount of Catholics and assorted believers who are currently in power/opposition, they wont have the guts to knock you back, in case you go around slamming Catholics.
If you know someone famous; a person who writes Sci-fi, or other fairy tales, get them to ghost your writings.
Do all of this and you’ll be home and hosed.
SHEPHERDMARILYN - I think it should be the problem of the rest of us. They’re conned yes, but women who are raped in the general commmunity or bashed in their own homes are protected by the law, many of them have been conned too, and our society is slowing realising, that being bashed by a husband/partner is not ‘secret family business’ it’s a matter for the community to take action over. It’s dangerous/lethal for a woman every 7-10 days in this country, and if children only witness abuse, it’s now recognised as child abuse. Why isn’t the same criteria attached to all? I don’t give a toss what they call themselves. All those brave people(wrote letters to Nick Zenophan, or interviewed on 4 Corners) have come forward and publicly given their testimony, and the ‘peoples house’ has let them down. Where’s Abbott’s moral outrage? Where’s Pell’s? Just as I thought! Where’s Rudd’s so called christian principles? And the women of both the major parties, including the Nationals - appeasers of thuggish and bullying behaviour!
Just because people join a religious cult or organisation, it shouldn’t mean that it’s the people’s personal responsibility if they’re treated in a criminal manner. I think the govt inquiry should also include the Exclusive Brethren and their alleged practices - they also go against the Family Law of the country among other horrendous human miseries - which have allegedly included trying to coerce young girls who were subjected to sexual abuse into not giving evidence. How a govt or opposition in this country could make excuses for these alleged criminals is beyond me? The only conclusion an intelligent person can come to, is that they must be donating heaps to the major parties, and so they don’t WANT to rock the boat!
ALENA V: To anyone with half a brain the inability of the faithful-on any religion-is pitiful. Why can’t a few individuals go out and tell God to get frucked; when they aren’t turned into blocks of salt they should know that there is something seriously wrong with the God concept?
I’d love to know how the head honcho of scientology pulls the proverbial wool. I’ll bet it’s along the lines of…When I was a Sci-fi writer I came across a message, carved in concrete, that god is great..Blah blah blah.
I have personal and intimate knowledge of some of those who bravely escaped from one of these money-grubbing, mind-controlling sects.
Unlike most mainstream religions today, these sects promise eternal damnation if all their acolytes own isn’t willingly given to them.
Although I don’t believe that you can totally protect the gullible from themselves, there is an obligation for government, in my opinion, to outlaw those pseudo religions which demand total subjection and abject adherence.
To learn of the government and its opposition succumbing to any cult’s slick sophistry is quite dismaying.
Yet another reason to vote for neither, come the next election.
APHRA: Governments would refuse to do anything because: There are so many religionists in the Government and Opposition they’d be terrified of frustrated cult members who might give up on all religions.
SERIOUSLY THINK ON THIS: If governments did succeed in outing cults and their practises, the actual cult members-on the lower order of Maxtuparnassis, whatever, would turn their hatred on to the people who exposed the rort, as opposed to the vultures who conned them. Why? Because people hate to be taken as fools, especially the ones who are fools.
But Venise, what if I just get called a “naughty boy”, and get crucified in the media!
It’s time for the return of … Maroubraman! (Hello Venise!)
The problem with this story continues to be the same as it has been from the beginning: the concept from paragraph two that there was “extraordinary evidence” revealed by Nick Xenophon is hyperbole. There were extraordinary _allegations_. Allegations are not evidence. If there was _evidence_, Xenophon would not need an inquiry.
Evidence is a much ill used word, Maroubraman, there is scientific evidence, and evidence in law. They aren’t quite the same. So allegations can be presented in law as evidence.
I wondered how long before the e meter nuts appeared, welcome Maroubraman.
Allegations of this appalling behaviour require investigations.
Perhaps you could cite the law you are referring to, Meski?
Hello Sonofmogh: Yes, I am a Scientologist as I have stated here before. Your compulsion to communicate only in insults says much about you, nothing about Scientology.
I understand all of this, Venise.
The bottom line remains, however, that these dangerous bloodsuckers exist, substantially, in this country, by clever manipulation of our laws and by taxpayer-funded exemptions. The last government knew this and connived with some, as does the present one, apparently.
I’d resent this last much less if some government support were directed to the psychological rehabilitation of those poor wretches who’ve escaped the clutches of these dictatorial and dangerous cults.
We only hear, but, of apologists claiming that it would be dictatorial and dangerous and a threat to religious freedom to impose any sanctions against these arrant monsters. Stuff and nonsense, I say!
And none of this even considers accusations of wide-spread sexual abuse, particularly of minors, which, someone should inform the government, is a serious crime in Australia.
Back on the subject of allegations versus evidence.
When Xenophon made his infamous abuse-of-parliamentary-privilege, he made outrageous conclusory statements, which he presented as if they were statements of fact. Yet before this speech, he refused to meet with a spokesperson from the Church of Scientology to discuss the allegations.
Yet Xenophon is an advocate by both professions — as an attorney and also as a politician. It is a poor attorney, and also a poor politician (not to mention words like arrogant and dangerous) who feels anointed to make such outlandish and condemnatory statements without ever _speaking_ to the accused, not even to acknowledge their request to be heard.
Wow, never talked to a cult member before, how those Thetans going?
If you want to start a Religion at least start one from a top notch Si Fi writer like Asimov or Clark.
All Religions should have to prove their charitable work like everyone else does by making a claim at tax time.
I thought marilynshepherd was being a bit tough, until I did a bit of Internet searching. Just have a look at Wikipedia folks, if nothing else and you’ll agree with everything Marilyn says. Scientology is absolutely hysterically lunatic. Faux science, faux astronomy, you’d have to be stark raving crazy to want to follow it up as a serious personal spiritual exploration. Humans are really trapped beings from the alien world, stuck on earth, having had numerous previous alien lives? Sure. I’ve always been convinced about that!
Maybe the Senate thinks, like I now do, that anyone prepared to believe that sort of nonsense is beyond helping anyway.
And where does “attacking” a “religion” begin and end when people are so willing to submit to all kinds of crazy beliefs. Remember Jonestown?
Hello Sonofmogh: Should the idea of consulting facts ever cross your mind, I invite you to do a little research into the history that led up to the High Court’s 1983 opinion, affirming the religious nature of Scientology. I believe the record will show that the Church of Scientology was held to a greater burden of proof than any other entity in Australian history.
Alternatively, you could ignore these facts and this history, and merely yell about how you feel based on rumors you have heard.
You make me VERY happy that I am a Scientologist.
Well, after everything I said about research, it is good to come across someone like CliffG — he read Wikipedia!
If they all “come back”, where is “Mother” Hubbard?
Here.
Where’s Sancho?
And what a sad day that was, I’m sure you will continue to be happy to be milked of money and good on you.
Like I said before ALL Religions should have to prove their charitable work and only that should be a tax cost.
Prove it! How many fingers am I holding up?
You want to hear something sad, Sonofmogh?
One of the High Court jurists who penned the 1983 opinion in question was Lionel Murphy, QC. What is sad is that as an Australian, you probably don’t even know who he was.
Klewso, rather than tell you how many fingers you are holding up, I could tell you where they are, but that would be rude.
Yes it i s sad, he was convicted on one of two charges of attempting to pervert the course of justice.
What is really sad is people who pray on the feeble minded and milk them for all their worth.
But keep chating with those Thetans and keep forking out your $$$$.
The people on 4 Corners seemed to be anything but feeble minded, just suckers.
Going to dinner. May be able to come back later. ShepherdMarilyn: I realize you are no friend of Scientology, but I appreciate the points you have made. Here is one small point to consider: Sonofmogh described the people on Four Corners as “feeble minded.” You, “suckers.” I shall not comment, but would offer the observation that whatever they are, they are not Scientologists. They are clearly very unhappy _former_ Scientologists, and that may tell you _something_ about Scientology. But even Xenophon has stopped citing the most alarming of his “witnesses” due to credibility issues that came up — an unfortunate circumstance that could have been avoided if the senator had simply spoken with someone from the church _before_ making his now infamous speech.
“Sonofmogh described the people on Four Corners as “feeble minded.” You, “suckers.” “
I did no such thing!, that’s the trouble with deluded people, you only see what you want to see.
I never even watched the 4 Corners show. I was talking about all the feeble minded that believe this crap. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence would laugh at your Thetans.
Maroubraman - Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu, Xenu
Maroubraman - being serious “I shall not comment, but would offer the observation that whatever they are, they are not Scientologists. They are clearly very unhappy _former_ Scientologists, and that may tell you _something_ about Scientology.”
And why are they former Scientologists? It’s the appalling treatment they claim to have received, coming on top of years of stories of abuse world-wide, that drove them out.
Damn right there should be a Senate enquiry. Hubbardism/Xenuism/Scientology will obviously have no problems defending itself to said enquiry against these baseless accusations (sarcasm…).
maroubraman there goes that contradiction again “I shall not comment, but would offer the observation…” that would be a comment. That kind of linguistic flexibility is a trade mark of defenders of the indefensible.
As for the insults thing you still don’t explain why you descend so easily to insult in defence of your particular existensial myth.
MAROUBRAMAN: “I am very happy I’m a scientologist”. Oh you poor thing. Take a couple of painkillers and lie down for a while.
IF YOU WERE really, really happy with your religion you would be too busy being ecstatic and fulfilled, without being out rounding up the gullible. so we have learned something about you that we didn’t know before.
How do you attract the gullible? Does it go something like this.. “Roll up, roll up Ladies and gentlemen” turning to the congregation “Please welcome our guests tonight” Clapping breaks out. “We are here to provide comfort, be you friends (we will prop up your shaky self-esteem). You are not alone any longer. You will become the leaders in your community. People will respect you, request your advice. You will not age but you will acquire great wisdom. We will educate your children (at the tax-payer’s expense) we will look after you when you are sick. We will nurse you and God will love you. You have become a member of a great and wonderful experience.” laughs again with sympathy. “Gee guys this is great. Some of you might call this a religious experience. But we would prefer if you regard me/us as just your loving friends. We will fight your battles, cosset you, stick by you as long as you live” (Meaning until your money runs out).
You will join with famous people who will love you. People like Tom (Cruise) Jamie (Packer), and (any other dimwit we can con out of a fortune) Most of all we will cherish you for your unique and individual selves.
“We will not want your money, but we would like it if you could donate a gold coin for our monthly newsletter. ” Pauses for a gentle laugh. And the audience laughs with him/her. Turns away a second time to encourage the audience. “Those amongst you may have noticed some clothes lines ™ in front of you”. Laughs again softly. “No we don’t wish to see your washing. No, the clothes lines are there in case one or two of you have a spare folding note. ($5.00, $10, a hundred-thousand dollar cheque-made out to our company), or nothing at all. It is entirely voluntary. We will cosset you in your old age (or until you suckers run out of money) We will fight your battles. Cast aside your doubts (and your money).
MAROUBRAMAN: Don’t you ever feel a pang of guilt with such a malleable group of people? Shame, shame and a hundred million shames.
GARY JOHNSON: then how do we get pig’s trotters to eat without getting poisoned?
Maroubraman, eye-witness testimony is evidence.
Please do not feed the trolls.
Hello Venise. Two observations:
You appear to be extremely bitter about something.
Whatever you think of Scientology, it is not the reason for your sad outlook on life.
Conclusion: Your opinion in this debate has little value.
again with the insults maroubraman, again no attempt to defend it. again no attempt to outline the central tennents of your belief system. Just snide remarks. You make a really crappy ambasador for scientology
Like iron filings to a magnet, SBH.
So your thesis is that your making some kind of defence of a position you wont discolse by insulting people in the name of religion. Then you indicate the sole purpose of your posts is to goad people and somehow that, to you is an appropriate and adult way to behave? Hat’s off maybe that’s the way your special freind in the sky likes you to demonstrate your devotion.
That’s why your mob, far from relishing the opportunity to explain your point of view, cowering before the prospect of any kind of investigation and use every trick available to avoid people finding out what your sci-fi cult really gets up to.
You can call your selves a religion if you want and that’s all much of a muchness all religions being a futile pleading against your mortality but yours is the only modern religion I know of that so avoids telling people what you believe. Even the freakin Brotherhood will give you a solid theological basis for their way of life.
GGot anything to say about Miscarrige beating people up? (oops silly me that should be a v not a rr)
SBH, did you go to school with Sancho?
I don’t know mm, I grew up in Sydney but never went to maroubra to swim because it was so full of shit from the outfall that you were always likely to run into some peice of turd or another.
Hi Maroubraman,
I am addressing this reply to you in the main; I apologize in advance to all the other readers here as I will use some terminology you may not be familiar with, bear with me.
I am a Scientologist but I am not happy about the Church of Scientology.
In “Keeping Scientology Working Series 1” Hubbard makes strong mention of many things but one of which I will quote here…”Trouble spots occur only where there are “no results.” Attacks from governments or monopolies occur only where there are “no results” or “bad results.”
M’man trouble = “no results” or “bad results.” Both you and I know the reference indicated, we have to read it before every course of study we do within the church.
I have first hand knowledge of some of the things mentioned to Xenophon; they do exist they are not lies, it is sad that it has arrived at this point, the philosophy has a lot of good in it, I would not have supported the movement for 25 years otherwise.
Whether the church gets investigated remains to be seen, it is my opinion it should open it’s doors to scrutiny and be transparent… unlikely that this would occur.
M’man I too have sat through the many hours of events wherein Miscavige and others tell of the expansion and gains made…when I looked I didn’t see it especially not here in Australia. M’man what about the hundreds of thousands of $ raised to place LRH books into libraries…we were told they were 100% done! Yet they aren’t…that is fraudulent.
I could go on but to what end…you will have your rebuttal scripted and ready to post in the end it doesn’t matter what you say…organized Scientology as you know it is being laid to rest it has become it’s own executioner, while it continues with being off policy and non-standard it will continue to have trouble. That trouble is snowballing and while not all parishioners will recognize it for what it is…LRH certainly new what caused it.
Get to high ground mate you may just about survive the wave.
Maroubramanie ?? get back in your space ship and fuc# off you parrasite. You tried to get my brother when he was down and lost. You failed.
Hi SBH. You say you grew up in Sydney. A little earlier we were talking about the difference between allegations and evidence. Do you have any evidence that you grew up?
Hi James. You talk as if we are enemies — threatening my survival with your tidal wave. That’s sad. Personally, I’m very sorry to hear you got no results. Obviously we see things differently. You remind me of the old Joni Mitchell song — you see clouds blocking the sun.
Here’s my view: One of the things I’ve always liked about Scientology is that other faiths don’t have to be wrong for Scientology to work. You don’t have to prove how misguided some other religion is to establish whether or not Scientology is effective. But that’s not the case with you exes; you are obsessed with proving the Church wrong. It may be wrong for you. It certainly sounds that way. Too bad you can’t just go your own way without having to try to wreck it for everyone else too.
Harrybelbarry: Don’t worry. Your brother’s doing fine.
MAROUBRAMAN: You mistake my emotions. It is not bitterness which sharpens my quill. Rather, it is a sense of joy at seeing yet another fraudulent godswalloper writhing around in mute agony. Unable and or unwilling to reveal the hidden agenda about yet another billion dollar American cult.
You are a man without substance who would impose a cult without substance-except in the negative sense-in a process whereby your masters are engaged in anaesthetising the suckers concerned; prior to stripping them of their assets.
BTW: Your reply to HARRYBELBARRY about his brother, was evil. I hope you get cancer.
In conclusion, the amount of money raised by scientology was ill-spent when they hired you in a Public Relations capacity. You’ve gained no acolytes in these pages. But then this readership does come from the well educated classes.
Once again you’re confused MM I said nothing about evidence or allegations but you know that shiftiness with truth will suit you well as a scientologist no doubt
and to add to what Venice said that was evil and threatening and backs up all the nasty things scientology has been accused of and may it be cancer of the bum
I know Don’t feed the trolls in space ships, but we have a clearance for take-off for a Mr braman and his space ship. bet they get cheap tax payers discount rego on the spaceship. Does it have a couch for mr . cruise to jump on ??? Tax payers are sick of these faith -based religions (corporations) getting a free ride and about 90% are not religious church going tax payers???.
Hi M’man,
Scripted response…as I predicted, go back and reread KSW 1. Your church management is doing the work of destroying itself.
You miss my point; LRH says what he says in that reference the church has failed in it’s results and it is in trouble, I am NOT saying Scientology doesn’t work. It isn’t delivering what was promised!
M’man the church is in trouble, therefore it is not applying the technology, that is not me saying it, that is out of the referenced policy.
I noticed you didn’t take up the point of the fraudulent action of raising money on the basis of placing the Basic Books into libraries! We were told they were all DONE! Then more money was asked for and so on, I have documentation to back up what I say.
You are being defensive and trying to assert a rightness rather than being right, I understand how it is, the scriptures of Scientology are not in question they need no defense, people may or may not find they work for them, you are defending a management that is wrong headed, they have done wrong actions and those actions are coming under scrutiny; those wrong actions are in conflict with their their necessity to be right. L Ron Hubbard explains it…”So one may continue and repeat the wrong action to prove it is right.”
To study a philosophy and find it works is admirable and I have no issue with you regards that, to defend something such as the management of the church just because it derives some of its power and privilege from that same philosophy is something else.
M’man, if you would go, and conduct a little test, go to your local libraries and check it out for the Basic Books…then dare to ask questions of OSA about what you find. Be persistent expect to get answers, I can guarantee you will end up on the disciplinary lines of the church!
There are fraudulent activities happening right under your nose.
Look don’t listen!
James
SBH “Of the bum”. Heheheheheheh
Oh goody! I had begun to think that my language was a little intemperate, but I’m delighted to see that we are all capable of the frank and succinct!
ALL belief systems are total rubbish, but if they provide succour to the sucker,-well why not? IF they do that that is…
Stology is no more a cult than Catholicism/Baptism/Sun-Worshipping/… or Islam. I find it quite ludicrous that those who peep out from the piety of their belief systems that are considered ‘mainstream’;-see other belief systems as ‘cult’.
They are ALL cults. (I think I spelled that correctly……).
I have no interest in debating ANYONE who extols the virtues of ANY of these cults…., but I AM interested in the harm they cause.
It is disingenuous and downright gutless to suggest that ex’s (from any situation), are all disgruntled liars. That is plain silly, and it is not very intelligent.
It has been suggest that Xenophon didn’t really do his homework- given one of our contributers here is an expert an’ all.
I worked very closely with Nick in SA at the State level. I am not on his Chris/card list, but I know him quite well.
His attention to detail is striking. And you are hearing this from someone who withdrew all support from Nick, when he deserted his State post, very early in, to go after a Fed seat.
He is no saviour (‘scuse the use of that word), and turns out to be much like the polished politicians that he used to be so contemptuous of.
But the bloke DOES know how many beans make five- he would NEVER take anything on that could portray him as a fool. That is not a compliment, but it does lend itself to the fact that he did his homework on this issue.
However, when all is said and done;-whilst I do genuinely accept the power of the brain washing of these systems/behaviours (this can occur with emotional violence/workplace bullying/ school bullying. ALL can damage the mindset);- I am also sick to death of the people who get THEMSELVES into these situations.
Nick represented a few pokie addicts against venues…. what in the hell happened to taking responsibility for one’s own actions?
Those affected by this group or others, need to swallow that once and for all. I have had it with YOUR suffering! I have always been concerned for the siblings/parents of anorexics- the families of gamblers-of addicts. THEY are the ones that suffer for the actions of these people.
I have little compassion for those that cause the fallout. I have complete compassion for those that suffer because of it.
How long does it take for ‘victims’ of these ludicrous cults to suss that things are not right. Are you all stupid? I doubt it. There is story after story by victims of gambling/drugs/religion/- who admit that they knew it was wrong-knew something was wrong for sometime.
I have had it with the ‘Elusive’ Brethren/Stology/RC’s/et al getting tax breaks and general whet nursing. And I’ve had it with the stupid people who involve themselves in them, and turn into victims.
You are not victims because many of you allowed your children to embrace these cockamamie doctrines-many of you have lost them to those doctrines. CHILDREN.
Geez! I’d better stop.
I’m not sure about your spelling elan. I think it really should be a ‘N’
……………….I’m not saying anything SBH, I has me standards…………
I have just spent some time lurching (I don’t ‘surf’ ) about the www. I was categorically NOT looking for this;-I stumbled upon it whilst looking for something entirely different.
Stology circa 1991: ( Very extensive-…, and interesting).
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865-1,00.html
(Gawd! I hope the link works, I’m lousy at this!)
Thanks Venise and SBH , yes the evil lurks close to the surface and the mind games dont work with people with a brain tuned to pick up codswolope , and bullshite.
I will third the bum cancer .
All these CULTS getting a tax free card and backing by both major parties , is sending the message that these mobs are OK and the govt wouldn’t let me work 20 hour days for no money, they like the space ships shiny, and signing Billion year contracts ( Julie Gillard , better look in to that ?) Don’t tell me Barnababy joyce is the accountant ?
They are stealing tax payers money, when it should go to Hospitals
Elan, believe it or not, I enjoyed your post.
How remiss of me. I meant to mention this:-
Statement: ‘……..You tried to get my brother when he was down and lost. You failed.’ HARRYBELBARRY.
Response: ‘Harrybelbarry: Don’t worry. Your brother’s doing fine.’ MAROUBRAMAN.
____________________________
See that? Sometimes it doesn’t even take an ex. It takes someone who purports to be a stologist, and if so,- more than adequately demonstrates the pernicious and thoroughly menacing nature of the stols.
An odious stench. It would seem that some of them really ARE stupid!
If one wants to promote the innocuousness of stology-that dimwitted remark would be the very last thing to say!!
BUT we should be grateful that a purported ‘representative’ of the stols is more than happy to ratify what the ex’s are saying!
I’m unsure whether the rest of you can see my post of the early hours today. It is ‘awaiting moderation’;-because of the link I guess, though the source is kosher and well-known.
It would be interesting to know: when we get that message (which is automatic btw), IS it visible only to the author?
I mean is the bleedin’ POST only visible to the author!!
Elan, believe it or not, I didn’t enjoy your post.
1) Harrybelbarry, who has never met me, and knows nothing about me other than what she can assume from my few prior posts, INITIATED unsolicited communication to me that began with, “get back in your space ship and fuc# off you parrasite.”
2) He/she then said something about his/her brother having been “down and lost” at some point, but that the efforts to “get” the brother apparently “failed,” which I took to mean he was now doing fine. Although I obviously have no way of knowing for sure, I responded with, “Don’t worry. Your brother’s doing fine.”
3) My old friend Venice responded that she hopes I get cancer. SBH, Harrybelbarry, and I believe one or two others joined in the hope that I will contract cancer.
4) You then berate me for being a poor representative of Scientology, apparently because my conduct does not reach the high standards exhibited by you and your friends.
5) I thank God that I am a Scientologist.
No no mm once again logic has failed you and you’ve got the sequence wrong. After several posts where you decided insult was a tool to be used against those people whose point of view you don’t share I asked several times why you felt the need to do that and was such behaviour consistent with your religious beliefs. You didn’t reply once.
Numerous people asked you for some more detail about hubbardism which you refused to supply and gave no reason why you would not share with us, the secrets of the universe.
You then let fly at someone by using a family member. We identified this behaviour as rebarbative and you got what you got. As someone once said to me ” ask and you shall recieve”
Now we’d all be ever so grateful if you would, indeed, f*ck off back to your spaceship and take you secretive and insulting religious ideas with you.
MM: The name is VENISE. You are a fool. And you are misinformed. The actual quote reads thus. “The amount of money raised by scientology was ill-spent when they hired you in a Public Relations capacity.”
I stand by my comment.
Also, until you reveal some of the philosophy behind scientology you are condemned
to be a quaint relic of religion itself.
Well it’s up now-somebody must pop in on a Sunday!
__________________________________
Interesting little piece on the Sunday Programme tonight.
Entry into a so-called stologist inner sanctum- and some rather weird goings on-and statements.
I have to admit that the two stols talking DID believe what they were saying, it was pretty obvious!
There was de bran noo sparklin e-meter!
Still, I see this as no different to those folks that wear little smocks and hold smoking pots on chains. Likewise daft men in red garb with cummerbunds and little black scull caps to complete the fetchin’ little énsemble! (Boss cocky gets the cream coloured outfit wid de matchin’ hat).
Anglicans get purple frocks I think? Tres cute.
_________________________________
I am reminded of the kid (choir boy) that took a bet that he would not be prepared to swing his smoky pot full circle when following the vicar (or whatever he’s called), down the …er, aisle?
He positioned himself at the rear and swung the thing right around. The smoking pot flew off the chain and launched like a missile, nearly fracturing the skull of a dozing parishioner. It DID set light to the hair of the unfortunate female next to him;-and all hell (oops! sorry!!), broke loose.
Attaboy!!
_________________________________
Cults mainstream or otherwise really should allow people to leave their (cult) cosy families when these folks so wish. Preferably not bankrupt and with their brains in good working order.
Unfortunately this is rather a big ask given that the focus of most of these belief systems is to control your thought patterns, which allows for you to turn out your own pockets, rather than the vulgar exercise of them having to pick those same pockets.
So tacky don’t you think?
I believe all religions are stupid, but at least the established ones (for all the manifest and damaging faults) have, at their core, a consistent philosophical base: for Islam, it is jihad, for Christianity, forgiveness, for Buddhism, one- ness …. etc
For Scientology? Some idea of self-fulfillment. Say what you will about Moses, Siddharta, Jesus, Paul, Mahomet et al - they weren’t frauds and liars. (Deluded? Possibly, but that’s another issue). L. Ron Hubbard is a documented liar, tax dodger and fraud*. All religions aim for the weak - after all, who’d need the great fairy tale in the sky if we didn’t have insecurities and fears. Even the new testament only asks for 10%. How much does Scientology ask for?
*Scientologists deny this, of course. Google will bring up no end of sites … there was a biography done some years back: recommended reading.
The hysterical screams from the Torquemada worshippers are meant to distract from my initial comment:
— that before Nick Xenophon delivered his disgusting diatribe under parliamentary privilege, he was invited by the church to meet and discuss the allegations reported to him, and to allow the church the opportunity to present its side of the story.
Xenophon declined. Rather than a rational discussion where facts could be presented and examined, he chose political posturing — blindly hanging his reputation on the likes of Aaron Saxton, who Xenophon is now hoping will quietly be forgotten. Sorry Nick, this was your idea.
I see no point in engaging with those whose views are devoid of any credibility; those who defend the indefensible.
Perhaps the the X-man feels the same,-who knows……………….
Have a nice day.
You want to know how the X-man feels? Ask him how Aaron is doing.
@Maroubraman: I’ll quote, it was such a long way ago in the posts:)
I said:
Evidence is a much ill used word, Maroubraman, there is scientific evidence, and evidence in law. They aren’t quite the same. So allegations can be presented in law as evidence.
To which you say:
Perhaps you could cite the law you are referring to, Meski?
It isn’t a specific law I’m referring to, Maroubraman, but the difference in use of the word ‘evidence’ when used in a scientific as opposed to court of law sense. In other words, I’m talking about all laws of a legal nature, as opposed to laws of a scientific nature.
@Elan: Awaiting moderation, only you can see it. If you avoid using words that would trip Crikey’s filter, and avoid posting urls, and you don’t have a history of making personal attacks, you probably wont get in the mod queue.
Meski, you discuss the law in the same cavalier way you discuss Scientology. Start with the Evidence Act of 1995. Are you saying the allegations spewed by Xenophon could constitute evidence under some provision of the hearsay exceptions in part 3.2?
You make a distinction between the “laws of a legal nature, as opposed to laws of a scientific nature.”
I think your confusion stems from a different distinction — the difference between the courts of law and the court of public opinion.
In the latter, you are entirely free to believe whatever you want.
In a court of law, the rules of evidence establish differences between documented facts and enflamed and exaggerated emotional outbursts.
By the way, I have nothing against emotional outbursts, but they don’t constitute evidence even though they may be persuasive as part of eye-witness testimony.
Maroubraman - If Scientology is beyond reproach, why are they/you fighting so hard against an Inquiry? Are you asserting, that the people who’ve gone public via Nick Zenophon or 4 Corners are lying?
Incidently, Xenophon had every right to speak from the Senate on behalf of his constituents? That’s why the Senate is designed that way, the House of Reps too! So that concerns of constituents can be brought to the attention of the public and enacted upon! Too much evidence or at best, ‘nasty stuff’ is coming to light - stories of slave labour couched in terms of ‘voluntary individual participation’ might’ve gone down well once, but not now! It’s BS! It leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth!
There’s enough disturbing evidence to warrant an Inquiry in my view. I also support a widening of the inquiry to include the Exclusive Brethren also - who incidently gave lots of money to elections while Howard was PM - no wonder the Coalition voted against the motion in the Senate. The Exclusive Brethren don’t even vote? How obscene are they?
I didn’t like the bloke from Scientology on 4 Corners. In my view he was shifty and having trouble in speaking the truth or acknowledging concerns. They pay no tax to councils etc, while the ordinary residents have to cover them, both via taxes to the Federal & State govts, and also Local Govt. I find that obscene! I include the more traditional religions too - they run multi million dollar businesses, own billions of dollars worth of property and are allowed to get away with ??????????
Maroubraman - Accusing those who told their stories as “emotional outbursts” is disingenuous at best. This slur is/has been used against women for centuries, whether it’s accusations of sexual abuse, sexual harrassment or lodging a claim for workers compensation for industrial accidents or injuries. I know that line of demeaning people personally. I repudiate it totally, it’s a cheap way of belittling people who have been genuinely affected by abuse or neglect. I’m not surprised that you chose to use it!
My impression of those on 4 Corners was of brave people who’ve been subjected to injustice at best, and crimes of violence, intimidation and threats at worst. It’s quite normal for people who’ve been treated in such an appalling manner to speak of it in an emotional manner. The reason is simple - humans are emotional beings!
Your tactic is like that of barristers during cross examination of sexual assault victims - it’s since been seen for what it is, and procedures and protocols have been put in place to prevent this from happening any more. You are out of touch and out of order! You need to brush up on the Law and rules of evidence yourself! We’re not fooled by bullies any more - and you’re a master at it! No wonder you’re a member of Scientology! Just tell me what good if any you do, apart from creating more wealth from the many for the few?
MESKI: Re your comment on moderation to Elan. It could be more a case of ‘key words’ that the moderator uses. It’s only my hypothesis, but I wonder if the word scientology appearing in the first line might trip off the wire.
MAROUBRAMAN: In your position-should you wish to make a meaningful comment on your religion-I would read and re-read LIZ’s comment, 15 Mar ‘10 at 1.36pm.
You, and your religion are under pressure to indulge in some honesty. Front up or shut up, would be my suggestion. Otherwise you are placing yourselves in the same crooked basket as the Jehova’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, the Exclusive Brethren, The Ring of Fire, and the doghouse down the street.
Senator Xenophon had every reason to take exception to your multi-billion dollar scam, or what appears to be a scam on a mountainous scale. Unlike you he does represent the Australian people. Unlike you, he was elected. Unlike you or Senator Fielding, he has the best wishes for our country and he DOESN’T rake in money from poorly educated, naïve and credulous old people. Even more importantly he has the right to question an imported con-game.
You refuse to reveal anything about your obscene cult, yet you would like to be taken seriously. Come on now, there’s a good man, front up or shut up!
LIZ45 — I never said Scientology was beyond reproach. But then, who cares what I say? It’s what you think I say that is important, isn’t it?
Maroubraman - After all the vitriol of the past posts, is that the best you can do? At what stage did you assert that scientology “was beyond reproach”? Before or after you poured a heap on Nick Xenophon for representing people who at best have had their lives almost destroyed.
You haven’t asserted any evidence to disprove their assertions. You also show gross arrogance & ignorance re the role of Senators in the parliament?
As Venise correctly points out, your denigration of Nick Zenophon is out of line - he was elected by the people, you weren’t! Who are you accountable to? What role have or do you play in Scientology, and how about some sorrow for the suffering of others, or is your so-called religion beyond this? Not part of the protocols I suppose? Screw people regardless of the damage!
I’ll tell you one thing; whatever I’ve participated in or reacted to, I’ve never obtained anything by ‘leaving my footprints in other peoples’ shoulders’ and I’ve spoken out against those who do - you fit that category! As all you can do is ‘shoot the messenger’ and demean those who’ve suffered via your values - which are pretty s****y, your pathetic response is typical!
Venice: Finally I realize what your problem is. You dished it out in your last paragraph. You are labouring under the delusion that I would like to be taken seriously.
Why in hell would I want to be serious? You know what serious is? Take a look at your posts. You are the definition of serious. There is nothing more serious than hatred and THAT is your religion. The thing that brands you a bigot is that the things you hate the most is anything you don’t understand.
As I told you before in another post, you are consumed by your belief in your own self importance. You think I should be tripping over myself trying to gain your approval.
Sorry Venice. I’m not a very serious person. Let me guess, that just makes you hate me more doesn’t it?
Maroubraman - Wow! You’re as transparent as anyone who portrays your brand of human endeavours. You spend your previous posts pouring a bucket on anyone who criticizes what you’re involved in and defending some pretty despicable human traits and then when you get justifiable criticism, you plead “no sense of humour”? Lol! One thing about your type? They never surprise me!
It’s the mob you’re involved with who need to brush up on their humanity skills, not Venise. She commits the ‘cardinal sin’(oops, my catholic upbringing rearing its ugly head’) of being frank and honest with her views. How should we behave?Like compliant little girls? Tough! I’m getting older each day, I don’t have time to be nice(not to excuses of human beings, without principles or a conscience?). I don’t suffer fools gladly, nor do I support someone who makes excuses for sexist pigs who insist on controlling women’s lives and bodies - among other things - allegedly, putting handcuffs on women and throwing them over the side of a boat - thankfully someone saved them?Or like slave labour???Go away!
Liz45: Here is some more fodder for you. I know I should try to appear more sensitive and compassionate, but the fact of the matter is that none of the people on Xenophon’s parade have had their “lives destroyed.” For many years they were happy in their church — along with many, many more people, like me. Then, a couple got into some personal grudges and next thing you know they are all jumping up and down feeding each other’s fire.
Let me give you one example: the issue of abortion. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it, some women choose to have an abortion. A lot of people on both sides feel very strongly about their position and believe that the other side is not just wrong, but evil, etc., etc.
And whatever their church thinks, there are women from most religions (even those which forbid it) who have had an abortion.
(Just for the record, I am generally opposed to abortion on demand as a personal matter, but don’t feel my opinions should govern anyone else and I can understand that in some circumstances one or both of the adults involved [particularly the woman] might have reasons for believing it is the right thing to do. This may sound corny under the circumstances, but I consider conception and the entire reproduction process [for all of life] close enough to call a miracle.)
Having said all that, the tales of “coerced” abortions Xenophon is repeating are just ludicrous. Don’t you think, if people getting pregnant was really some sort of out-of-control epidemic, someone would have discovered a little subject called contraception?
I even heard one of Xenophon’s witnesses say she was “told” to get an abortion and when the tv interviewer asked, did you? the witness said, no way, I told them to get lost.
So you or one of your other socks asked if I think “all” the critics are just liars. Not really. It depends on your definition of a lie. But I think there are some GIGANTIC exaggerations. And if you ask me, I think Xenophon knows that without the tiniest shadow of doubt. But he does not care about the facts and I don’t believe he cares at all about the people he is using. He is exploiting them in the hope of personal political gain. And you know what, when this subject is being discussed and you all throw out endless perjoratives, my opinion is that they all belong to him, because he is an elected representative. He has been given the public trust to pursue the public good. How well he does that job determines the degree to which HE wastes our taxes. And when he abuses the public trust, exploits and manipulates people, and tries to stir up discontent and division in society, I think he is a disgrace to the Senate.
MAROUBRAMAN: Hate you? Why would I hate you? I despise what you stand for but how could I hate you? I don’t know you, I’ve never met you and apart from your belief in some weird sci-fi cult which you write about you are a complete stranger.
Certainly it is none of my business that you feel you have to indulge in ad hominem attacks. Feel free, as you obviously do. Actually it is enlightening to read your comments. They reveal far more about you than they do about the people you confront. Cheers, and have a good one!
“Good what?”, you may ask. Now, that would be telling.
Maroubraman: Cavalier, eh? I’d wonder if you have any more legal qualifications than I don’t. I’m avoiding personal attacks, on you and other forum posters. Some public figures might cop some vitriol from me once in a while (Murdoch, Conroy, Fielding, the usual suspects) - but they are fair game
Nick Xenephon is probably better than most, although I can understand your point of view for not agreeing there.
MAROUBRAMAN:
PS: You attempt to make the point that you are not a serious person. If, as you do, you wish to inculcate others into your Sci-fi cult, your should be very serious indeed.
As it is your cult is under media and political scrutiny, is it not? You could be treading in some very deep water. Just a friendly warning.
I had a dream about a week ago and some one from God told me to pray for a Mr. Shuffles ? and then disappeared into the western sun. I prayed every night and then i saw a baby elephant say to me” thanks” It was only after i heard the dead elephant come alive after birth, was called Mr. Shuffles . What a miracle ! I have done my first miracle , time to start my own church and the Tax -free haven from the tax payers will build my church, car and home and a large wage . Just have to gather some helpers to work for free and transfer their wealth over to my church funds. MM , where do you find your suckers ? and is there any limit on fees, i can charge ?? Will start writing my rules and story line. Got to go , Mr . Shuffles is calling me.
HARRYBELBARRY - Thanks for the laugh? Funny thing, we had the same dream around the same time! If you need any people to share your loot, don’t forget me!
HARRYBELBARRY: Olé! Very well done. Have you thought of a title yet?
Sorry Liz45, Mr Shuffles just signed a 5 Billion year contract with me and will only talk through me. He wants me to collect money and start factories and buy a large Island and build a Mansion on top of the mountain.(Better reception for mind thought travel) All will be explained at the 1st Work Camp and mind washing classes. Tickets only $500.00 for members. Membership only $5,000 a year. Mr. Shuffles wants it to be Exclusive , no red-necks or trailer-park liberals. No couch jumpers.. All donations to be in cash, property or gold. Have to go Old shuffles wants to download ideas to my brain.
HARRY- Well, damn and blast! The bloody story of my life! Always miss out on the bounty! Oh well, looks like I have to spend the rest of my life like I’ve spent it up to now - broke! Mr Shuffles is so cute though isn’t he??????
Thanks Meski. I am fairly sure it was the link,-any link. Crikey like any other site has to check out where ‘their’ people are being led to, because it can lead straight back to them if the link is suss. I think…
It only happened once before, when I put up a name/fact. They need to check that it was fact I guess.
__________________________
Sad. One woman says no to abortion-that is quoted. The women who DID have abortions-that is not quoted here.
One ex has been discredited??? Hundreds of others are thus discredited??
The beat goes on.
Hello Liz45, Elan, Meski, Venice, Harrybelbarry et al: At the end of the day (figuratively as well as actually) you, like me, are free to believe whatever we want to believe. Have a good night. See you tomorrow.
Hello everyone. I just posted a message to another Crikey page and thought you all might like to see it too. It was a response to another poster asking the question about whether or not Scientology is a religion.
As I said there, this question was settled by the Australian High Court in 1983. In fact, before coming to its precedent-setting affirmative 1983 decision, the High Court had to establish the criteria for what IS a religion under Australian law.
This is such an important decision in Australian law, that if you go to the government website at http://www.cdi.gov.au/report/cdi_chap20.htm , you will find that:
“The most significant Australian authority on the question of what constitutes a religion is the decision of the High Court of Australia in the Scientology case which was decided in 1983.4 The High Court found Scientology to be a religion. On the question of the current approach to the meaning of religion, the Scientology case provides the best elucidation and it is worth a detailed consideration here.”
So, you see, the question has already been answered.
Maroubraman, it isn’t whether or not it is a religion, I’m happy for it to be regarded as one. The argument relates to the treatment of all religions as tax-exempt organisations, rather than separating out the charity components as tax exempt. At a personal level, only my contributions to charities are tax deductible, not my entire income, yet religions get their entire income declared tax-exempt. As for whether you believe in Xenu, Buddha, Mohammed, that’s your decision. My decision (note I don’t use the word belief here) is that until they can be proven to exist, I’m not going to ‘believe’
Maroubraman - Lots of things have changed since 1983 - 27 yrs is a generation - I didn’t know about scientology then - never heard of it - life is different now, obviously! Did the High Court have the information put forward by Nick Zenophon and 4 Corners for example? I didn’t hear one person during this program annunciate any ‘prayer gatherings’ or the like. No food halls for the poor or those living on the street for example.
As I said, 27 yrs is a long time. There was no Federal govt body that oversaw child support for example; more people died from cancers than today(less people ‘got’ it too?) not as many women in all spheres of govt; no aboriginal studies to the extent of today; lots of things were different then. I never see scientology people in my area for example, but I see the charitable outlets for a couple of other traditional religions! I don’t think they’re a religion - except for the nasty bits - they use the same/similar discriminatory practices. I’ll read the article, but won’t change my mind, that this organisation is not a positive force in the community, and shouldn’t be a tax haven for wealthy investors! The traditional religions own property in this country to the tune of $8 BILLION last time I read - probably more now!
Some links about a German film Scientologists are trying to block.
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/03/15/0734203/Scientology-Tries-To-Block-German-Documentary
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/11/scientologists-try-block-german-film
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,675298,00.html
Meski, I understand your point about “the treatment of all religions as tax-exempt organizations.” I agree that all religions should be treated the same from a legal perspective. What I object to is the howling witch-hunt being conducted against a minority religion for political grandstanding purposes.
Let me get personal again — in my opinion, anyone with half a brain can see that the allegations being screamed by Xenophon and his dupes are wild, distorted exaggerations at best. He is talking about “slave camps” for God’s sake! If there was really a slave camp in downtown Sydney, do you honestly think you would need a Senate inquiry to find it?
Do the ex-Scientologists have some valid complaints? Possibly. But the hysteria is NOT supported by facts. And the truth of that is self-evident. If someone has any REAL evidence of wrongdoing, take it to the police!
I keep hearing people say, “Well, if the church has done nothing wrong, they should trust the government to do an honest investigation.”
Okay, here is a question for all the Anonymous goonies reading this: Why don’t you trust the government to decide what kind of filter to put on the Internet? If you are not intending to do anything illegal, you should have nothing to worry about. Perhaps old Nick will help keep the web open for your favourite cp.
Good point Meski — bring up Germany. Makes you wish things had turned out differently in 1945 doesn’t it?
Hello Liz. “Did the High Court [in 1983] have the information put forward by Nick Xenophon [in 2010]?”
Actually, to all intents and purposes, they did.
As you say, you didn’t know anything about Scientology then. But the very reason that case came about was because of similar hysterical (and baseless) religious prejudice whipped up by a very small number of people with vested interests.
Did you go and read the Australian Government website I cited, that analyzes the outcome? http://www.cdi.gov.au/report/cdi_chap20.htm
Yes, but maybe not the way you mean.
Maroubraman - There’s one main reason why I’m against the internet filter, otherwise known as censorship, it’s because it won’t work. I understand that those vile bastards who have shocking stuff on their computers send and receive from person to person - not via a ‘public space’? They’ll find a way to protect themselves, as they obviously do now. I haven’t come across one of these disgusting images(thankfully) by accident and certainly not interested in trying - in fact, I go out of my way to avoid them even accidently. It’ll take someone not very long to hack it, like has happened before, and slow up peoples’ computer speed! Dumb!
”in my opinion, anyone with half a brain can see that the allegations being screamed by Xenophon and his dupes are wild, distorted exaggerations at best.”
So, not only are you an anonymous attacker, you claim to know what these people have experienced - a trifle arrogant don’t you think? There’s people who don’t believe in the stolen generations, domestic violence or child abuse, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. All it means is that they choose to live in denial, and that their denialism hurts others.
As for going to the police. Only 10% of women report sexual abuse/assault to the police; less than 10% of them get to court, and only a small number get a conviction - that’s the reality, doesn’t change facts though! People who’ve been subjected to the type of abusive behaviour that’s now public re scientology are intimidated, brain washed and afraid! What you’re doing, is ‘shooting the messenger’ again!
LIZ @HARRYBELHARRY@MESKI RE: MAROUBRAMAN:
I don’t know why we bother about religious freaks. I happened to look down at my t-shirt. Naturally it is by First Dog and equally as naturally our four-legged friend is light years ahead of us.
Jasper asks: “How is it that we can refute the science of Climate Change on the one hand, but still believe in the Miracle of the Donkey and the cauldron on the other?”
To which our hero asks: “Is religion, as we suspected, just Death Anxiety with a tax exemption?”
What a sagacious beast he is!
VENISE - I must get one of those shirts! I’ll investigate! I love message T shirts - have quite a few, you know, No Iraq War, end uranium mining at Jabiluka, Save Killalea National Park(from the mongrels in the NSW parlt?)
LIZ: Go to Crikey shop and all will be revealed. Cheers V
My fave T comes from Darwin Liz “Keep warm this dry season, make trouble”
SBH - Now that appeals to me! I intend spending the rest of my life doing just that???
MESKI: I take my suggestion about the ways of a moderator back. I have just been moderated on First Dog for writing a short fairy story!
Last word: The bottom line is that virtually all of the allegations raised by Senator Xenophon are ludicrously distorted. Even if there is a grain of truth at the bottom, and regardless of how sincerely (or not) Xenophon believes the stories he has been told, they are just that, stories — grossly inflated for a variety of reasons, perpetuated by prejudice, and exploited for spurious political ends.
MAROUBRAMAN: That’s your story old boy. The evidence says otherwise. Nick Xenophon was elected by the people of Oz, and what a nice surprise he turned out to be a person of value, unlike his fellow senator Stephen (I believe in Creationism not Evolution) Fielding.
As a legitimately elected senator, he deserves some respect from the likes of a Scientologist who raises money on dubious grounds, bleats to the government for lashings of government support, distorts history, invents spurious ‘other forms of history’, cons the weak-witted out of their life’s savings, and generally behaves in a manner which no respectable whore would countenance.
If you wish to continue your comments without readers attacking you. You might try something which if you ever had it you’ve forgotten where you buried it. Namely the truth.
Maroubraman - Last word? Look at this logically! People don’t come forward with such personal horrific stories unless they’re true. It’s just ludicrous to think that those women who were told to have an abortion would make that up? So, you don’t know the veracity of their assertions, but you, supreme being that you are either think;
the complainants are lying and want some form of revenge? What? Money? Why didn’t they sue then?
Nick Zenophon, for just political reasons, would spend hours and hours listening to peoples stories, spend more hours preparing his address to the Senate etc? Doesn’t make any sense either. He doesn’t strike me as that sort of a person. Like Venise, I think he’s a decent human being with integrity!
Senator Chris Evans? said yesterday, that he’ll be meeting with Senator Zenophon and work together and find a way that these allegations can be investigated?
Even Senator Abetz has suggested, that the Fair Pay Ombudsman? should investigate these allegations? (yesterday afternoon - ABC PM I think or the News - I was driving at the time?)
I think Senators are concerned about these horrific accusations, and want them investigated, but just didn’t think the Senate was the place to do it! Perhaps they’re right! I’m pleased that something, hopefully will be done! Those who made the accusations deserve this at least!
You said - “The bottom line is that virtually all of the allegations raised by Senator Xenophon are ludicrously distorted. Even if there is a grain of truth at the bottom, and regardless of how sincerely (or not) Xenophon believes the stories he has been told, they are just that, stories — grossly inflated for a variety of reasons, perpetuated by prejudice, and exploited for spurious political ends.”
Two words - Prove it!
Or shut up!
LIZ, well said. I don’t wish to challenge your beliefs, but while he’s on the subject, he may care to prove there is a God.
LIZ: Logic, reason and religion are three mutually exclusive terms.
VENISE - Good idea! I’d be interested in the result of that mission! I liked the comment Richard Wilkins? made about Steve Fielding - likened him to an earth worm, then almost apologized to all earth worms?? Fielding is an embarrassment. Nick on the other hand is an intelligent person with a high degree of honesty and decency - that’s how he comes across to me anyway. I’m usually a good judge - sometimes fail, but usually spot on. I don’t think he’d be a sleazy sort of man, and is respectful etc. I have a lot of time for him! He was brave taking this on! I like that!
I don’t care what belief systems people have, but when they dominate the rights of others, ie, if the so-called Leaders profess to be ‘christians’ we all have to adopt the same beliefs, then I get really wild. In fact, I have no time for any of them for reasons that you know, mainly their misogynist attitudes - and their hypocrisy! I think of the catholic church’s influence on my life as a child and a young woman - revolting!
Hi Venice. Since my last post disappeared, I guess that means it was too personal for the mod. Too bad. It was brilliant. Hope you got to read it before it was censored. What a life!
Here is a thought for the countless millions of other fair minded people who lurk around reading old Crikey stories:
Xenophon is using the allegations of a few scripted “victims” in an effort to bring the might of the government to bear upon the Church of Scientology.
And despite Senators Abetz and Evans paying tribute to Xenophon’s sincerity, I of course would challenge that conclusion.
And if anyone heard the rabid howling of Senator Christine Milne and thought she has a fine sense of justice, well … let me do the mod’s job and restrain myself.
What is really happening? I know it is unpopular and bad public relations to accuse the “victims” of lying. But they are. Ask anyone who has known them personally over the years. Yes, they are. And if you doubt this because what motive could possibly make them all agree upon such consistent concocted stories, well you’ll have to ask them about that.
But the real victim is the Church of Scientology. And if there was to be a humorous aspect it would be this: A lot of the howling dupes who are cheering on Xenophon in his efforts to manipulate the government into infringing on the rights of Scientologists to practice their religion without government interference are the same people who yell and scream when the government threatens to infringe on their right to view child pornography on the internet.
Xenophon and his cohorts cynically repeat the
Maroubraman - I must apologize to Nick! I spelt his name with a “Z” instead of “X”! Very lazy of me!
“But the real victim is the Church of Scientology. ” Right! I’ll cry when I get time!
I tell you what! Don’t ever apply for a job at a Rape Crisis Centre or on the hotline for people(mainly women) to ring re Domestic Violence. You lump the complainants into group called ‘liars’ while those in Scientology are automatically the ‘good guys”?
And you want to be taken seriously! Go AWAY!
As for your attempted insinuation, that people like me are angry that ‘we’ won’t be able to watch child pornography, you’re just plain filthy! I have no desire, nor have I ever, to see that sort of vile and cruel behaviour. Take your sick brain, and go harass others for a change!
There is no better example against stology than what they themselves spout.
We have been treated to an excellent example here.
The only irritating thing is the scratching of this broken record.
MAROUBRAMAN: You are tiresome, if nothing else. And naughty me, I failed to catch your previous rant. But you do run to a format, so it wouldn’t be difficult to get your overall drift.
Do you have to overstate your case time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, after time and so on ad nauseum??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Scientologists as victims?????????????????????????????????????Bollocks. As for you precious right to believe in scientology?? Since when did our Constitution ban or threaten any religion? You have the right to be perfectly convinced that Shakespeare was written by Fred O’Reilly, declare that Queen Elizabeth I is in fact a hermaphroditic God, build temples to her greatness, and that Francis Drake was her lover. No one would object at all. However, like all greedy people and institutions you want it all. You want to batten on the public purse, as do other religions, I admit.
If your belief and love of scientology is so great, why can’t you practise it in private? God, apparently, can see all and hear all, he can see to the very heart and soul of every human being-which is one of the reasons I disbelieve in religions, and god-and, surprise surprise, he sits up there-where? with endless, fathomless patience to listen to every boring person on the planet. He will know the depths of your belief and will be cheered immensely by your fervent enthusiasm. You have His attention, so be satisfied and stop inflicting yourself on other people.
Ha! Venise, if you think I am tiresome now, wait until you have known me for a few years.
And yes, I do have to overstate my case time after time. I have a just cause.
You tell me to “stop inflicting yourself on other people.”
I googled your name, and this is the _first_ post I pulled up — from a Lisa Gunders in “Politics-Gender” from Sept 2, 2009:
“It seems to me that Venise’s attack on me at comments 86 and 107 were an excellent illustration of precisely what these writers were complaining about; she attacked me personally without seriously engaging with any of the issues that I raised.”
I didn’t read any more of the gallons of your posts that came up, but if “inflicting yourself on other people” was an Olympic sport, nobody else would bother going to London in 2012.
But to get back on topic, yes, the Church of Scientology is the real victim in the current debate. The people complaining to Xenophon are simply a tiny handful of apostates who have found a senator who sees enough potential political gain to risk staking his reputation on their twisted and hopelessly exaggerated stories.
Maroubraman - You may also find, that Venise and others like myself won’t bother responding for ‘a few years’? We’ll just give a big ho-hum and move on. Incidently, I agree with her last comment. If Scientology is go great, just do it in private, and stop attacking those who have an opposite reality to yours! I believe them, and disbelieve you.
Whenever anyone is as stubborn and blind as you are, the question must be asked, why? Why are you defending sexual abusers and predators? Because you’ve been caught out publicly this time - and there’s probably many others who are out there suffering in silence. Perhaps they can form a support group and help each other recover. You on the other hand, refuse to face their reality!
If it’s any consolation, the catholic church is also having a bad time re abuse - even the pope’s involved this time. serve him right! They’ve covered it up for decades, and eventually it was bound to explode throughout the world - it has, and I hope it continues, and more brave people speak out. Clean out the lot of them, take their goodies away via taxpayers picking up the tab for their non-payment of taxes, and bring in those special police who are trained to investigate these bastards - sex offenders - that’s who they are! Preying on kids and other vulnerable people! Why have they been protected over the years? At best police neglect, at worst, complicit in the abuses!
MAROUBRAMAN: The people who attacked me are the pitiful remains of what used to be the feminist cause. Regrettably the movement has degenerated badly into a form of fascism for the quasi-feminists. And, as with your lot they have their hands out for the taxpayer’s money.
The woman who wrote the article you loved so much is one of the leading lights of the home birthing brigade. It turns out that the midwives employed by women to deliver their babies are unable to get insurance cover. Nothing daunted they turned instead to the government to underwrite the risks which the insurance people refused to do. Something to do with actuarial statistics which rate rate home birthing as being more dangerous than hospital birthing.
So filled with pious virtue were these people that anyone who was against the idea was vilified. They almost crucified a nurse who wrote in saying she was fed up to the back teeth with having to save the lives of babies and their mothers, who had had botched home birthing experiences.
You saw and approved of what they did to me. I was warned that your lot were/are vicious scumbags who will stop at nothing to get their own way.
Crikey moderator: I’d be grateful if you don’t moderate this comment, which is directed to Nick Xenophon: Dear Mr Xenophon, doubtless you have been warned about the dangers of engaging with Scientology; this makes you a very brave man indeed.
If you read this comment you will seen how venomous their cult is to someone who is not of their own group. You have been singled out for abuse in this post. I would like to warn you just how vengeful they can be.
I thoroughly endorse the stand you have taken; it is refreshing to see there is at least one parliamentarian who has the guts to stand up to Scientology’s bully-boy tactics.
Yours faithfully, etc.
Just thought I’d cover my back, Maroubraman, because you are a very sick puppy.
I have no intention of waiting around for a few years…what was your quaint word?
To ‘know’ you. In this short space of time I’ve learnt how incredibly ugly you are. As a bonus you’ve let me know how equally ugly the cult called Scientology is. No ambassador you!
Accordingly I am going to bow out now. I’ve learned one thing in life and that is don’t mix with ugly people. All they do is bring one down to their own level.
’ Ha! Venise, if you think I am tiresome now, wait until you have known me for a few years. ‘
What a hoot!
It just SEEMS like a few years.
ELAN: Quaint little fella ain’t he?
Who?
VENISE - (Think I’ve got the same lergy you had a week or so ago? - feel YUK!)
Good for you re the one-eyed Scientologist? They’re pretty scary aren’t they? I can see why people are intimidated and scared to speak out. If Maroubraman is an indicator, I’m not surprised. Bullies are always the same aren’t they? They have no defence against their disgusting behaviour, so they use attack as their only ‘defence’ pathetic! - but they don’t have any - and they don’t have any credibility either?
I’ve supported women who’ve been bullied by husbands, partners, employers, insurance companies and their so-called ‘doctors’ and they all react the same - most obnoxious! They have no guts either!
Years ago my state pollie took up my case re the brutality of an insurance company doctor(under Parliamentary privilege, like Nick did) who was a bully and tried to use intimidation with others re me - that politician received a threatening letter from said doctors’ solicitor???Bullies, all! Didn’t stop me though? Just made me more determined to help protect others. I can only hope that he came to a sticky end - he certainly deserved it. I hate bullies, wherever they are and whoever they cause pain and anguish to. Go after ‘em Nick!
Good for you Venise!
LIZ: If you lose your appetite you’ll know you’ve got it. It strikes at the chest more than the head, although you’ll be coughing up glug for ages. If you live near your leech go and get some strong antibiotics. These should help to reduce the amount of time you will have it for.
Good luck, and I hope you haven’t got it.
BTW: Thanks for your support!
Cheers,
Venise
Venise, I perhaps should point out that in refusing to directly acknowledge a poster, I am unwilling to then acknowledge that poster………………………..
ELAN: I’m not trying to avoid you. Usually I don’t get to my computer until 15.00hrs.
Also, did you address a comment to me? If so why would I have not replied? Makes no sense. So run your comment past me again, please.
PS: Unless you are playing games, or want another fight?
When all is said and done,
When you set aside the media distortions,
And the rambling stream-of-consciousness nonsense of some bitter old ladies,
For anyone actually interested in spiritual freedom,
Scientology is undeniably not merely A religion,
It is the religion of religions.
It embraces all.
And it is simply fascinating.
http://www.scientology.org/#/videos/
LIZ: How goes it on the health front?
VENISE - Still here! Not too bad today, but one hell of a headache, with raspy throat. Been lying down reading and being lazy! But, in comparison to you, I’m fighting fit! I hope I don’t find out how sick you were! Thanks for asking!
have you recovered, fully, yet? Fancy having to put up with the rantings of Maroubraman - enough to bring on a relapse? ? Is he referring to you & I as “bitter old ladies”? Gee, I don’t mind the “old???”(my little Mum was old when she died, 88 - that’s old, not me?) but I’m not a lady, or as my sister used to pronounce it ‘loydy’? Useless people she reckoned - they sit around, sip tea and play bridge - now WOMEN on the other hand, DO things! Indeed!
Maroubraman - About as fascinating as watching paint dry, or following Abbott during today’s debate! I can gain spiritual freedom watching birds, whales and small (and not so small) children, particularly my grandkids! Sunsets and sunrises are pretty nice too - spiritual if you must? Gorgeous!
‘ELAN: Quaint little fella ain’t he?’
Er, no.., you addressed a comment to me, and then I………..; forget it.
‘PS: Unless you are playing games, or want another fight?’
What an odd thing to say…, but if you are making an offer…
Geez!
_____________________________________
‘And the rambling stream-of-consciousness nonsense of some bitter old ladies, …’
‘Consciousness nonsense’ no less!! Now THERE speaks an expert.
(You DO realise you have become irrelevant, don’t you?)
ELAN: No, no, I’m not looking for trouble. Cross my heart.
LIZ: Glad to hear you are still around. I ran into my medico yesterday and yes I had a chest infection. Not the ‘flu. Sorry to have worried you so needlessly.
I don’t give a fuck what Maroubraman thinks I am. Old, bitter; whatever. Coming from such a fifth-rate source, it’s almost a compliment.
Cheers
Venise
VENISE - Chest infections can be very serious. I still feel yuk but I wouldn’t say I’m very sick - been worse! Don’t want to mix with others though, just in case!
I agree with you re whats hisname! Have you noticed the different tack these blokes take with women on these posts? Quite amusing really. They can disagree with men quite stridently, but they have a special ‘manner’ when disagreeing with women eg refer to us what in their view is not ‘nice’ for females to engage in, such as ‘bitterness’ etc. If we’re out of the range(their range)re sexual appeal, they just resort to rude! As if I give a f**k either! It is amost a compliment, I agree!
Did you ever see ‘Steel Magnolias’? One of my favourite movies. There’s a line in it where Shirley Maclaine (who plays a wealthy woman with a sharp tongue) is asked why she’s so damned miserable, and her reply is, “I’ve just been in a bad mood for 40 yrs” or words to that effect. I always laugh with understanding at that line. In fact, I might get it out again and watch it - could do with a good laugh! Some of the lines in that film are just great! Strong women being tough or lashing out etc!
Take care! No relapses!
Cheers!
Let’s get back on topic shall we?
Did we all read the SHM this morning (25 March)? The Anonymous internet anarchist hate-group are now threatening to assassinate Australian politicians.
Senator Nick Xenophon will apparently believe anything anyone tells him as long as it is anti-Scientology.
He will apparently ally himself with anyone as long as they are anti-Scientology.
His main “witnesses” are members of Anonymous. His press conference last week featured anti-Scientologist James Anderson — who openly protests with Anonymous with or without one of their trademark masks and posts on their websites.
His star witness is/was Aaron Saxton — self-appointed leader of Anonymous’ anti-Scientology “raids.”
Xenophon’s Anonymous anti-Scientology supporters include people like David “Tamphex” Skuse, long-time 4Channer.
When Anonymous tries to destroy a religion Senator Xenophon does not like, he supports them. (Putting on a press conference has got to constitute support doesn’t it?) If he disapproves of the group’s death threats against Australian politicians, is he going to disapprove with the left hand, while still supporting other members of the group with the right?
Or maybe he can just adopt Anonymous’ own defense — “Those Anonymous are different from these Anonymous. They are the bad Anonymous who do illegal things, we are the good Anonymous who are peace-loving and law-abiding.”
Yes, and he’ll respect you in the morning.
Who farted?
Maroubraman: All you can detect about a person on the internet that is signed anonymous is that it is a person or persons that haven’t logged on as a named user. Some might do it as a habit, but it doesn’t identify them as being a person or group called anonymous. Your logic is confused if you think it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Coward
You certainly have class, Elan. I presume you think the death threats against our elected representatives are funny.
Yes Meski, that is exactly the argument I mentioned. You, I presume, are one of the innocent Anonymous members who does not engage in DDOS attacks, you do not deal in cp, you do not download pirated music and videos, and you do not engage in “raids” that degrade other people’s websites, etc. I am sure you just run around in happy, happy, happy freedom of speech and generally do good deeds.
You’re still doing this grouping and labelling as if it means something. It doesn’t. I hardly ever post anonymously, (unless I’ve moderated on Slashdot, and then want to comment on that topic (you can’t do both)) - or unless I can’t be *rsed registering for a site. (rare, if I read it often) I don’t approve of DDOS attacks, and don’t run any. What’s cp? I don’t do pirating, it’s bad for the software industry, (so bad for me)
What about Scientology? Have they ever done any of those things? Have they ever issued takedown notices for people that disagree with them? Do they ever post anonymously, or use sock-puppets? Deface or put incorrect info on wikipedia?
Issue take-down notices? Yes. The church is free to communicate too.
Post anonymously? I’m sure lots of Scientologists do. I do, obviously.
Use sock-puppets. Sure. I have had some very enjoyable conversations with myself.
Deface or put incorrect info on wikipedia. Not me, and I can’t imagine any Scientologist wasting time putting false info on wikipedia or anywhere else.
Meski, how can I believe you are not just trolling? You say I am just “doing this grouping and labelling….” That is what “you” (grouping you with Liz, Elan, Venise, etc) are all doing. You don’t know me, have no idea who I really am, but some of “your” comments (and you, Meski, are thankfully relatively mild compared to some of the others) refer to me as a stupid, moronic, sick puppy, etc., and you hope I get cancer and die — because I choose to speak up and defend my religion. You all have me labeled as a “cult member” which excuses, in your mind, any amount of dehumanizing, stereotyping, and insulting, which you justify with the prejudicial view that I deserve it because I am part of a group that you believe should be eradicated.
Whether or not YOU are part of the Anonymous crowd that is posting death threats against Australian politicians (according to the Sydney Morning Herald, not me), I expressed an opinion about that and Elan responded, “Who farted?”
Meski, you can think I am a sick puppy all you like.
Issuing takedown notices is censorship.
Anonymous isn’t *quite* the same as posting under a nickname. If you use a different nickname for every post, sure.
Unless you’re using opposing rather than supporting sock-puppets, in which case you’re vastly more subtle than I suppose.
I do troll at times. Not so much in this thread. But when you say “anonymous is doing this” - you’re attributing anonymous as one person or entity. Me (grouping me with the others - you shouldn’t assume I’m in agreement with them all, I’ve had noticeable disagreements with a couple of them) grouping you with other Scientologists is reasonably fair, you as a group do try and present a cohesive group, not always successfully.
I don’t make death threats. Against anyone. And I don’t make ad hominem attacks against individuals. If I’ve called anyone a sick puppy, it was as a :^) comment.
ELAN: Just a lightning visit. FWIW, I thought your comment “Who farted?” was very funny. But a lady I ain’t.
MESKI: I’m the one who called him a sick puppy. A comment by which I stand.
Also, MESKI, how do I go about using another name; or would I just type in the word at the top of my comment? I’m totally hopeless re: typing and internet skills, so I am not trying to be indulging in humour. Guide’s honour.
Meski, isssuing “takedown” notices is not censorship. You said you “don’t do pirating, it’s bad for the software industry, (so bad for me).”
There is a difference between the government infringing on freedom of speech by censoring content that it deems “bad”, and a copyright owner protecting copyrighted material. Of course, if we want to get really boring you could raise the old argument that the Church abuses copyright law to “silence its critics.” If you figure out how to do that, let me know.
I can’t speak for all Scientologists and I can’t speak for the Church officially, but I personally don’t have any problem with critics. What I object to is Xenophon trying to get the power of government to restrict my freedom of belief. And that IS what he is trying to do. The claim that he is investigating “abuses” of human rights, etc., is just ridiculous crapola. I presume you have swallowed some of the hysteria so think the claims may be valid and warrant investigation, but that is not the case. I KNOW enough of the facts to know it is all at best wild, absurd exaggerations. As I have said before, for example, the claims of “coerced abortions” are just ridiculous. Carmel Underwood, for example, one of the people making the claim, was NEVER a member of the religious order whose members do not have children. And if you think THAT is a “human rights violation” (not having children), let’s get real. Whether you like it or not, it IS a religious order. And as we know, some orders in other religions do not allow their members to even get married — and we know what kind of problems that can lead to. And Carmel, who was never a member of the religious order, CLAIMS she was told to get an abortion, and then when she was asked on ABC what her response was, she said she said “no” and went ahead and had the baby. So if you think that needs a Senate inquiry, you must have a pretty low opinion of some of the real problems our government needs to address.
And by the way, we earlier talked about evidence. IF you want to seriously consider this “coerced abortion” issue (which I am sure you don’t really), then think about it. First of all, the mother-to-be is going to be alone with the doctors, etc., at the clinic or hospital or whatever. It would not be too hard to say, ah, excuse me, I don’t really want to do this. Then, there is the husband. Do you really think a husband is going to allow his wife to be forced to have an abortion she does not want? You can answer “yes” if you have swallowed the dumb line about Scientologists being blindly obedient, but I can tell you, it just isn’t that way. And another piece of “evidence” if anyone cared to look: there are couples who did get pregnant while in the religious order, and chose to leave to have their child and are still happy, welcome, members of the Church. And when their children grow up, the parents can decide, if they want, to return to the order. And here is the last point: If unwanted pregnancies was actually a problem, and this is getting a bit personal, but there is no prohibition against contraception. It just defies logic to think a whole religious community would have a “problem” with unwanted pregnancies without somebody implementing some pretty simple solutions. Believe me, it doesn’t happen.
But here is what I think perhaps MAY have happened. I think there are possibly examples of women who did get pregnant, were unsure what to do, perhaps talked with friends about it, and then decided to have an abortion. And later regretted it. And later left the Church. And then they got really bitter and it all comes together as a great way to blame the Church for a personal decision they regret. Well, I understand their regret. Personally, I am very anti-abortion at all. But regret can easily turn into blame, and if there is anything at the bottom of any of these stories, I think it is something like that.
By the way, as I said, your comments are definitely on the mild end of those I feel are gratuitously offensive. It would probably be enjoyable to have an actual conversation with you. But that isn’t going to be possible. You would find out that my real name isn’t Maroubraman! Wouldn’t it be funny if we already know each other?
Sorry for yet another lengthy rant.
Hello Venice. If this get’s past the mod, I think you are an ignorant bigot. A comment by which I stand.
@Venice: You’d set up another wordpress account to log into crikey - or change the id of your existing wordpress account.
@Maroubra: Are you sure that religious material can be copyrighted? Or should be? It seems to show a certain lack of transparency. (that’s my opinion, not a fact). Re the comparative theology, are you implying that what, for instance, RC priests have done and got away with indicates a carte blanche for all other religions?
I’m making an assumption (that you live in Maroubra) - so no, I probably don’t
MARURBRAMANG: 1) Spell the name correctly. 2) As I explained to LIZ. “I don’t give a fuck what you think”.
MESKI: Thanks for the info.
Cheers
Venise
PS: It would be a bit stupid when my avatar would still be there. I didn’t think of that before this. I told you, am dead hopeless with computer stuff.
Cheers again
V
MODERATOR, EVEN IF IT IS A MACHINE: Since when are Crikey readers banned from using the “F” word?
Avatar, Venise?
You may need to change your email to make the avatar change. Back to Meski again now.
JABBERWOCKY: You have a problem with my avatar? I copied it from a seal/chop mark I’ve got. It’s Chinese for good luck.
Next?
Maroubraman
Posted Friday, 26 March 2010 at 3:57 pm | Permalink
Hello Venice. If this get’s past the mod, I think you are an ignorant bigot. A comment by which I stand.
I still don’t think you get it! Venise doesn’t give a f**k! Nor do I!
What is wrong with you? Are you stupid, dense, thick or what???????????
PS. I think I’ve just given you more acknowlegement than you deserve????????
LIZ: Guess who has turned up on BK’s latest Conroy article. He’s spouting all his recycled garbage. Boring!!!!!!!!
Usual anti-Xenophen crap. Perhaps the religious nutters are so filled with methane gas they don’t have any spare space in their brains to enlarge their horizons. Sad, when you think they go on to contaminate their kids with all their mawkish tripe. What on earth did children do to deserve brain-washing? Which is exactly what all religions do to their kids.
LIZ; Sorry about this. It was Margaret Simons who wrote it.
@Meski: Actually, most religious material IS copyrighted. My own copy of the King James version of the Bible is copyrighted by Oxford University Press.
But I don’t agree that copyright ownership automatically means a lack of transparency. It just means if you create something, you have a right to determine how it should or should not be published. As you mentioned earlier, you disagree with piracy. I agree with you. The real reason Scientology materials are copyrighted it simple: Some older religions have scriptures that were passed down orally for generations before they were written down — sometimes in different languages from the one spoken by the prophet, and there are now arguments about what the prophet actually said, or what words he actually used and what those words meant. In Scientology we are fortunate in that we know what our founder said because he wrote or recorded his ideas. So they are copyrighted to preserve them from alteration. People can still comment on them, have opinions about them, or whatever you want.
Hi Venice, Liz54. I am starting to think I am your most favorite poster of all time. I am thinking of making a special allowance, and enrolling you as beginning Scientologists.
No, the bible *isn’t* copyrighted, the only thing you can copyright about it is trivia like formatting, arrangement[1], etc, not its content. Else show me a copyright ‘trail’. Most old SF books are out of copyright - example EE ‘Doc’ Smith, H Beam Piper. Written in the 50’s and 60’s. When was Scientology’s ‘bible’ copyrighted, and when does it lapse?
If L Ron Hubbard copyrighted Scientology to protect it from alteration, rather than to obscure and prevent people from reading it, then you’d expect to be able to read a complete work of it, rather than just the work for a particular level. And you’d expect it to be published and sold as such. To use comparative theology, as you seem fond of doing, the Bible, or the Qur’an are not sold in levels. Indeed, the Gideons seem to have made it their life’s work to distribute the bible in motels.
[1] I find copyrighting of formatting a fairly dishonest trick, by the way.
@Meski: I doubt if we will get very far if we get into a broader religious discussion. I may be wrong, but I think you are missing data about how other religions treat their scriptures and historical records. (And the same is true for all sorts of groups and organizations, philosophic, scientific, and everything else.)
The Bible itself may be freely available. But there are certainly many scrolls that have not yet been made public, for reasons that we can only speculate about. They may not be copyrighted, but that does not help you or I having access to them does it?
And how about all communications between, for example, Senator Xenophon and Channel 7’s Today-Tonight gang. A bit of transparency there would be interesting.
And how about my good friends in Anonymous. How about a bit of transparency there? Let’s have them all start posting under their real names shall we. Of course, you might say they have a *justification* for keeping their names secret, because otherwise the big bad bogey man will come after them. Well, even if you believe that crock of poop, it is still a justification for keeping secrets. And it is a bit hypocritical for Anonymous to say we have the “right” to privacy, or confidentiality, or whatever they want to call it, because they feel they have a *good* justification, but they *demand* that Scientology make all of its copyrighted materials freely available to everyone and it has no right to any different opinion. You (or them) of course can say, “Well that’s different because … ” But, as I said, it is hypocritical.
You know, I think everyone on this list might despise TDT and ACA. But bundling Nick with them is probably unfair.
Are the scrolls part of the bible? And are they really not available to the public? Name some of the ones you’re talking about.
Re posting anonymously, you can take what AC’s say with a grain of salt. I really wouldn’t get stirred up about it.
‘ello all. The stol still spouting I see.
The thread that will not die.
http://www.thewrap.com/ind-column/anderson-cooper-prepares-feel-wrath-scientology-members-15667
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html
@Meski: You think it is unfair to bundle Xenophon with Today Tonight?
You are aware, I presume, that Xenophon’s chief of staff, Rohan Wenn, is a former Today Tonight reporter?
@Maroubraman - People do change you know. Maybe he left because he either got a better opportunity, and/or just didn’t like the format of Today Tonight - the sensationalizing of issues etc - so predictable? I refuse to watch it these days, or ACA either! Their latest ‘investigations’ re sexual abuse was a disgrace. Even if it’s true, they’ve probably stuffed up a successful court case. They should be charged with perverting the cause of justice? If that man is innocent I hope he sues! I’m certainly not an apologist for child abusers, I am in favour of justice - the right way!
Hey Lizzy!
Maybe this, maybe that.
Whatever Rohan’s motives for leaving were, don’t you think maybe he helped Xenno orchestrate those biased, one-sided, pathetic hatchet-jobs?
@ Maroubraman - I think I’ve exhausted my views on that topic! Arms, neck etc are killing me now! Stupid me! I like Xenophon and admire his guts and commitment. I await the next stage!
I’m done - as the yanks would say! I’m off to buy a zipper for my little grandson’s jacket!
Far more productive!
Another lightning visit: OMG Marourbraman is still at it.
MAROUBRAMAN: Not only are you a sick puppy, but you must be a very lonely one.
‘Bye
Venise
Lizzy: Xenophon has no guts. He is a coward.
Venice: Have another beer.
MAROUBRAMAN: Can’t you get anything right? I loathe beer almost as much as I hate the smell of it on a man’s breath.
You amaze me. You are boring, lonely, given to trolling in people’s WPBs, personal, rude, repetitive, bullying, hectoring and egregious.
Also, you are devoid of humour and devoid of merit.
VENISE - Says a bit about me too??How are you going? Just been out to buy a zip for the lovely little man(grandson)’s jacket for winter, and the woman who owns the fabric etc shop, been fighting leukemia for ??? is now in the acute stage - just found out!! Damn! Damn! Damn! second one in 2 days! Puts this in perspective doesn’t it? Most distressing! I’ve known her for many yrs now! I think I’ll buy her a plant or something. Feel pretty useless!
I don’t mind a beer, but don’t like it on breath - hours after? Yuk!
LIZ: So sorry to hear this. Do look after yourself.
Gotta go and get some food.
Love
Venise
Thanks Venise! Love
Hello Venice. The penalty for violating Crikey’s code of conduct is you must drink one more beer. By the way, I’m lonely, can I join you?
Thank you Lizzy.
What the stol is doing,-(which is the culture of the belief)-is to make sure they have the last word.
The culture of stology is that it disciple’s latch onto any negative publicity and bully it into submission.
SO stol: as long as Crikey leaves this topic open, I will pop in on a regular basis to make damn sure you DO NOT get what you want.
I make the exception with stols;-’ ignore them and they will go away ‘, will indeed do the trick. But stols want precisely that!
You won’t get it from me.
Thank Elan. As Venice pointed out, I’m lonely.
Maroubraman -Maybe people don’t want to be converted to scientology? I think if I went around trying to convert people to ???? I might end up lonely too! Perhaps your attitude re this issue is affecting other areas of your life.
Hello again Lizzy. More “maybe this, maybe that.” You’re quite a “maybe” person aren’t you?
Maybe you’re right about everything.
ELAN: I do take your point. However, if the only reason the poor little man has, is to have the last word; look at the shallowness of the pond of people left to be converted to his piteous cult!
On my jazzy little space scooter, as I pass beyond Erasmus, Mars, Pluto and into the next solar system, I will warn the denizens that S/tology is about to engulf them. Not!
MAYBE!
Lilly, Venice: As a magnanimous gesture, I have decided to give you the last word.
Trust me.
Then there is hope for you yet…………………
Well…………
Elan: As a magnanimous gesture, I have decided to give you the last word.
Trust me.
I hadn’t missed it was April 1.
See you tomorrow.
No problem Elan. As I said, I have decided to permit YOU to have the last word.
ELAN: It’s April Fools’ day!!
Hi Venice. Did you hear? I’ve decided to allow you to have the last word!
You’re welcome!
The stol doesn’t need a special day for that.
In any case he is just playing games now. Good. No more preaching. Back to the garden.
(Methinks The Crik is having problems. Things are darned slow at the mo’).
Just popped in to take the 200 spot.
Good morning!
Over to you to have the last word!