Rudd’s sackcloth-and-ashes tour
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While the press gallery this morning wrapped itself tightly into a navel-gazing knot about whether the Prime Minister had “gone too far” in his current hairshirt act, it made the same mistake it often makes, of confusing itself and average voters. The sackcloth-and-ashes tour started on Thursday night on The 7.30 Report and continued in the Saturday News Ltd tabloids, where Laurie Oakes had an account of his interview with an abashed and apologetic Rudd at Kirribilli, which lacked only a photo of a pensive Prime Minister gazing at the harbour below. And then onto Insiders on Sunday, where Rudd declared that not merely would he get a whacking in the polls — a favoured line whenever the Howard Government conjured some new smear of him in 2007 — but that it was deserved. But in between times, Rudd also did talkback with Neil Mitchell, featuring some confected outrage about quivering pensioners too scared to turn their lights on, and spoke at the South Australian Labor election launch. No mea culpas during either. Instead, they were carefully targeted: O’Brien, Oakes, Cassidy. The sackcloth-and-ashes tour is as much about the press gallery as it is about average voters, particularly Insiders, which no one outside political tragics, journalists and politicians actually watches. The message will filter through to voters, of course — Rudd’s regrets were conveyed via the evening news bulletins last night, for example — but the other key message is to the gallery, to the effect that Rudd and his team get the message and now want to move on with the aim of lifting their performance. It’s a message they hope will colour media coverage henceforth. That’s why Rudd has also been at pains to emphasise he’s aware of his communication problems, an issue otherwise of interest only to the professional political class rather than voters, who don’t bother to analyse what they’re hearing and how they’re hearing it. It was Phil Coorey who spotted the real source of mea culpa strategy — not Peter Beattie but John Howard in 2001. In early 2001, Howard was in serious trouble, well behind in the polls, facing a backlash over the GST. Howard should have been riding high — he had introduced the GST and consolidated the Budget, two major policy achievements — but he was under the hammer on two issues — the GST impact on pensioners and fuel excise. Both issues were entirely confected, particularly the fuel excise issue, which was the result of a beat-up of an ANAO report that had blown a trivial issue about the use of fuel excise entirely out of proportion. Nevertheless, Howard’s issues management had been off-key and the media eagerly turned them into a political firestorm for him. His response was unsubtle but effective: he apologised, and “fixed” the problems by giving a handout to pensioners and halting excise increases. Both were bad policy precedents but they worked, and turned things around for Howard, who had been staring at a massive defeat later in the year. The Tampa and September 11 only came later, when a more confident Government could exploit them. Sometimes even a Prime Minister just has to cop it sweet, regardless of the merits of an issue. The analogy holds well, except that Rudd is streets ahead of where Howard, who spent most of his inter-election periods behind or deadlocked in the polls, was in 2001. The insulation story is entirely confected, seized on by a media eager to give the Prime Minister a serve, and Rudd has decided to cop it sweet, apologising and going for an unsubtle fix that throws money and Greg Combet at the job of cleaning up a program that shouldn’t have been closed. And it was important that Rudd himself been seen to be doing all this, which is why footage of him marching out to meet installers last week was just as crucial as his apologies, and probably more than what he said on an obscure Sunday morning talk show. One more thing on Rudd’s communication. On Insiders he said this about taking action on climate change.
It was pretty much the clearest and most succinct thing he’s said about the need for climate change action for two years. If only he’d been that clear before now. |
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69 Comments
In fact, I hope Labor do sell their soul to the Greens.
That way we can watch Rudd and almost as deliciously Milne/Brown get annihilated in the next election
It is no surprise that Rudd has admitted “he did not realise how hard it would be to deliver on promises”. What a bullshit artist! After years of serving as Wayne Goss’s chief of staff in Queensland, he has had plenty of experience in evaluating political pledges and delivery. The reason he can’t deliver is that he over promises and then runs away from the painful side of delivery. His list of hollow pledges includes fixing hospitals by taking them over by June 2009 if not fixed, Grocery Watch, Fuel Watch,2020 Summit, reducing carbon emissions without pain, the empty Kyoto ratification and of course advising that sensitively treating illegal immigrants would not result in an increase in boat people.
His hollow “mea culpa” is nothing more than a careful “spin doctoring” with faux sensitivity hoping to garner sympathy with an increasingly disillusioned electorate. The man has no shame. Kevin Rudd is a strong candidate for beatification as Australia’s next saint as his government has achieved the miracle of elevating Tony Abbott to within reach of being Australia’s next Prime Minister.
Mr Angelo, you believe in miracles? That puts you in the Abbott fraternity, he does to. I will stick to reality, not voodoo.
Excellent article BK. The only thing I’d point out is that Rudd, like Howard early on, just struggles to sound like a real life Human. He may have changed tactics, but that just changes the script the he still so obviously sounds like he is reading from.
Howard did have similar problems early on, but eventually worked it out. Rudd simply doesn’t seem to be improving on that score. Sure the polls are still not too bad, especially compared with Howard at the same time, but this remains something he needs to work out. It’s not like there are not far more naturally talented communicators waiting in the wings (Gillard and Tanner are both performing very well).
@ David: As a point of clarification, I do not believe in miracles, and furthermore I detested John Howard. Unfortunately Mr. Rudd is morphing into the same politician is Howard, all spin and no substance.
Great analysis as usual Bernard.
In times of crisis Australians expect their Prime Minister to be reassuring and focussed and working hard for their well-being. So sack cloth and ashes and humility wouldn’t have been a good look during the global financial crisis.
In better times Australians like to think that their Prime Minister is just an ordinary bloke. The electorate seemed to see something of that in Kevin Rudd when they elected him. They won’t mind seeing him being brought down a peg or two so he be their Kevin of old.
” That’s why Rudd has also been at pains to emphasise he’s aware of his communication problems, an issue otherwise of interest only to the professional political class rather than voters, who don’t bother to analyse what they’re hearing and how they’re hearing it.”
My goodness Bernie for an mediocre journalist struggling to hold down a job with a tiny squeaky voice like Cikey, your being very cruel & sanctimonious towards the little ozzie voter aren’t you?
On the bright side, I am now sure that Kevin is going to “have you down” at the Lodge.
Mr Rudd does not have to apologize to any one.
Re the installation., due diligence by workers expected.
The take over the hospitals will happen in due course so many hospital to look at and work through/
The Education revolution is going great guns. Parents have complained for years there was not central curriculum.
The GFC if we like to hear it or not got in the way/And do you know it a great thing it did
We now have some infrastructure that the liberals did not and good not be bothered with.
point of clarification, I do not believe in miracles, and furthermore I detested John Howard. Unfortunately Mr. Rudd is morphing into the same politician is Howard, all spin and no substance.
HOWARD SAID SORRY FOR NOTHING
Personality is important, at least politically, but one problem Rudd and the current federal government has is that they are quickly running out of friends to defend them.
Rudd put both conservatives and progressives offside by playing too much politics with the CPRS. And recently he has put a lot of younger voters offside with his mandatory internet censorship proposals.
Yes, the mainstream media are giving the government a hounding, and yes, some of it is unwarranted and unfair, but many groups of voters that Rudd counted on when he came into power no longer care because for one reason or another, they are now angry at the lack of honest leadership and foresight exhibited by both Rudd and his ministers.
The government is being too sneaky. It’s showing. It’s plainly manipulative. And nobody likes to be taken as a fool. Sure, they are still ahead in the polls, and they did a great job of navigating Australia through the GFC, but when you start making too many enemies, all that goodwill can come crashing down as people talk around the water coolers at work or the BBQs on the weekend. He needs to keep his friends who gave him power, not put them offside.
So I believe Rudd needs to drop dumb policies like internet censorship, stop pandering to special interest groups like the Australian Christian Lobby, and get back to focusing on the things that really matter. He needs to show some vision. He also needs to stop kowtowing to the media, or using reverse psychology to get a poll bounce. It’s ridiculous. Anyone can see through it. He needs to start acting like a real PM and stop trying to be some kind of master tactitician.
HOWARD SAID SORRY FOR NOTHING
just add sending us to a phony war. Weapons of mass destruction
the stolen generation AWB Children over board i could go on.
If howard had been half the p.m Kevin IS then howard may not have LOST
is seat.
Posted Monday, 1 March 2010 at 2:07 pm | Permalink
In fact, I hope Labor do sell their soul to the Greens.
That way we can watch Rudd and almost as deliciously Milne/Brown get annihilated in the next election
so being a liberal you want the return of Worse than Work choices do you.
To visit on your sons and daughters and grandchildren
we don’t, 20 years time, those who succeed us on your program and in my position Barrie, will say ‘what the hell did they do?’ And there’ll be a trillion dollars, a real trillion, not a Barnaby Joyce trillion, thrown out there to get a scientist to come up with a quick fix in 24 hours, because by then it may be too late.”
( Bernard )
I think Mr. Rudd thought every body new that, When your very intelligent like he is
he thinks every knows what he know
I have a son in law just like that in the medical profession brilliant mind.
But he does think that every one around him is too.
I think Mr. rudd may have missed that point re the above statement
As my daughter says about her husband hell work it out soon and i think he has
But well to me he never had to say the above because a lot of us do understand.
Bernard one day can you let us know do you read the comments.
It would be great to know.
As my daughter says about her husband hell work it out soon and i think he has
SHE MEANS HER HUSBAND
But well to me he never had to EXPLAIN the above because a lot of us do understand
sorry about the editing in a hurry
I’m always intrigued if not mildly to acutely annoyed, that when a Labor govt is elected, they’re supposed to fix everything in the first 12 months or more. Hunt was bleating about the delay in setting up the insulation program, now he’s bleating because they didn’t take enough time. People on different blogs carrying on about Rudd not delivering all his promises, and yet Howard, after almost 12 yrs wasn’t given the same treatment for allowing infrastructure to wind down so badly, that it would take a couple/few terms to overcome that - without anything else being done!
The absolute arrogance over the deaths of those 4 workers was the last straw - the last 4-6 yrs of Howard did more to produce these tragedies, than anything Rudd could do.
Incidently, the Greens are the only ones with a consistent policy of worker safety and education and legislation for same. Look at Howard govt re Asbestos and disallowing Union programs for worker training. It’s interesting now to read these comments of those with convenient amnesia! You should be ashamed of yourselves. I’d like to see The Greens with the balance of power in the Senate - THEN we might just see some real occupational health and safety laws - then the need for a PM to apologize just might be removed! Lots of unpleasant truths were brought up during the rescue of those two brave men in the Beaconsfield mine - none did the Howard govt any good, nor did he deserve them to!
If Rudd didn’t say ‘sorry’ he’d be classed as being arrogant, and when he does he’s gone overboard. Why don’t some people just be honest and admit, that they’re supporters of the coalition/conservatives full stop, and anything anyone else does is bad/inept/costly/ etc. I’m not happy with many aspects of the Rudd govt, the main one being, that it’s too much like the conservatives! The biggest con of all is Howard/Costello as good economists? They used the money from the boom times on the already rich, instead of injecting it into the needs of the country as a whole. The debt was many times worse after they left govt! Media spin with a compliant media did the bullshitting for them - over and over and over!
GREG - I suppose you found no problem with Howard’s ‘over promising’? What was it, in his campaign speech, so many million per minute - in both ‘04 and ‘07?
When it comes to the financial or other problems in the West, it needs to be remembered, that it was Conservative govts that got us in this mess. If Howard hadn’t spent so much on Iraq, so-called ‘border protection’(read torturing asylum seekers, already suffering from trauma) tax and superannuation for the rich and privileged; huge sums to private schools; caused the shortage of doctors/plumbers/electricians and a myriad of others, there’d be less problems now! In a few yrs, there’ll also be a shortage of teachers, as there’s lots who will be eligible to retire. Of course, demonising the teaching profession won’t endear this choice to nearly enough - then what????
“that sensitively treating illegal immigrants would not result in an increase in boat people.” For a start, people who arrive here by any means are NOT “illegal”. We have a commitment via the UN Declaration of Human Rights; the laws that are ours pertaining to our relevant Immigration Laws, and our commitment to the Declaration on the Rights of the Child. At least 95% of those seeking asylum arrive by plane; just under 5% arrive via boat. Under Howard, there was a ‘softening’ in the policies ; due mainly to some brave Liberals who couldn’t stomach the cruel, inhumane and unnecessary treatment of already traumatized people. I suggest you take a look at the Legislation and who introduced it etc.
Funny how you don’t advocate having police raids on backpacker hostels each weekend so check everyones’ bona fides; perhaps some of the eating houses around the country or ?????It wouldn’t be due to the overwhelming number of overstayers arrive by plane, speak English and are white would it? No, surely not!
Sharmon Stone was the Coalition person on the joint parliamentary committee after Rudd was elected, that put forward recommendations for change. Nobody in the Coalition objected at the time - it was only after they saw a way of resorting to a Tampa situation that the criticisms came - including yours no doubt!
It was AFTER the introduction of the TPV’s when the numbers of asylum seekers increased under Howard. If the coalition thought Howard’s tough policies were working, why build a complex that would house over 1500 of them, at the cost of over $1800 per person per day at Christmas Island, while Villawood in Sydney is less than $300 per person, per day! Christmas island sounds very much like Goulburn Maximum Security to me! These people have not committed a crime - they’re exercising their legal rights to appeal for protection! The percentage of people who are recognised as ‘genuine’ are higher from boat arrivals than those who arrive by air!
The numbers who arrive here are a drop in the ocean compared to other countries in Europe, US, Canada or UK. If we kept out of their countries, didn’t kill innocent civilians and not support countries that oppress their citizens, they wouldn’t have any reason or inclination to leave their birth country!
Get the facts Greg! They’re on Crikey site under - Asylem seekers, the facts in figures. (Friday 17 April, 2009)
Liz said
“The absolute arrogance over the deaths of those 4 workers was the last straw”
An inconvenient truth Liz?
Left = No Humanity
Greg Angelo, I must have lost the drift of your meaning about miracles…you wrote.. The man has no shame. Kevin Rudd is a strong candidate for beatification as Australia’s next saint as his government has achieved the miracle of elevating Tony Abbott to within reach of being Australia’s next Prime Minister…..so obviously you don’t believe in the miracle of that which you spoke namely … his government has achieved the miracle…sounds like yes you do…of course what you really mean is its a play on words right? Of course you do. Abbott, a Catholic, a God fearing Christian, a man of the seminary, the see no evil speak no evil of Australian politics, a family man who believes his daughters remain virgins until deflowered after wedlock, the follower of all things according to the book of Pell, oh the list of this mans goodness would fill the blackboard of any catholic classroom, love of all men/women no matter who (even Minister Garrett who he accused of killing)…yes it would take more than a bloody miracle for this hypocrite to become PM.
climate change.
“If we don’t, 20 years time, those who succeed us on your program and in my position Barrie, will say ‘what the hell did they do?’ And there’ll be a trillion dollars, a real trillion, not a Barnaby Joyce trillion, thrown out there to get a scientist to come up with a quick fix in 24 hours, because by then it may be too late.”
One more THING if the media re the abc or news papers where to actually put this on the
FRONT of the paper with the abc make it a headline
Then this message would get through
they would probably rather talk about abbott and his sex life.
fire up LIZ45
MICHAEL - “An inconvenient truth Liz?” I don’t understand! What’s your history on occupational health and safety. Who wants the laws strengthened, the Right? I don’t think so. Explain yourself!
I don’t call 1,000 electrified rooves mere trivia. Nor top tier legal advice of major safety risk, as well as (get this) ‘major political risk’.
Why run interference for the Cabinet here? They pushed Garrett out with the in a quick and dirty insulation programme (refer Hartcher SMH last
Saturday) to help offset the GFC. To save the whole ALP ship. Just like Garrett was necessary to beat Howard in 2007. Reality has caught up with rhetoric, standards of competence with weak implementation, and energetic Abbott has cut through with his pithy (yes simplistic, often cynical, deceptive, hypocritical) one liners.
That’s life in the fast lane and feeding from the big trough of power and status. If Cabinet were on a lie detector test they would admit a recession with widespread evictions, hunger, domestic violence, dangerous drug use, suicides, crimes of violence in pubs etc (oh and the demise of their govt) was in the balance and a quick and dirty was a price they had to pay as patriotic leaders … as long as it was PG. Talk about a sh*t sandwich.
I agree Rudd sounded alot better by half way through the Insiders interview. He even got some colour back in his cheeks after that head cold started him out pasty faced. I’d say he’s starting to grow into an almost fully formed human being instead of an amoral pr*ck 2 years ago. And does he owe PG big time: The secrets he must know.
TOM - I agree. What is happening with those rooves? Much talk, but any action to date? I’d be getting someone to take a look as soon as, but on today’s news I hear that electricians and plumbers are naming their own (high) price due to their heavy workload via the stimulus package etc. $400 for a callout to a plumber at the weekend, before anything is done? Talk about having a captive market? Why is there such a lack of qualified people - has been for several yrs now! The same reason as lack of doctors?
A pity girls weren’t encouraged to become electricians decades ago, even now? Beat the hell out of living on a full pension!
I agree with you re the ALP owing PG “big time”. I feel a bit sorry for him really. Talk about being thrown in the deep end! A long way from leading a large pop group to undertaking such a project like this one? Did he ever have a job where he had to ‘clock on’ for example?
Liz listen up!
This chumpy forum is very selective on what gets posted.
If it’s not in keeping with Crikey Left wing policy, it gets lost in translation so this may not reach you because the gatekeepers understand that ladies on this site can’t stand anything that that requires thought and answers.
I get that!
I understand that females need protection. I mean there is only so much you can take, being females and all.
But listen to me.
How can you justify the [Edit] actions of Garrett and his Labor [Edit] troops as a woman and a mother (?).
And try to justify those actions by simply saying the Libs also have blood on their hands.
Please explain!
Cause you may well be Pauline Hansen’s alter-ego!
@David
I often speak with tongue in cheek! I never thought it possible that Abbott could possibly be conceived of as a potential prime minister but compared with Rudd’s recent performance that possibility, however remote, is firming. It is somewhat reflection of Rudd’s steadily diminishing public appeal which makes this possible.
@Liz45 how many thousands of “refugees” you want in Australia before you say enough is enough. Most of the people who force their way into this country are not asylum seekers but illegal immigrants masquerading as refugees. My understanding the refugees summary escaping persecution, not somebody who traverses the several safejurisdictions seeking out a destination of choice with really juicy social security systems. the United Nations has a well-organised system for handling refugees and this is what we should be relying on. Otherwise all you are doing is pandering to people smugglers. Whatever one thinks of Howard he understood this dynamic and took the tough decisions however politically or morally unpleasant.
Anybody who can scrape up about US$15,000 to get here is not without means but is selectively migrating to this country without going through proper channels. The only genuine refugees coming into this country would be those from PNG or Indonesia fleeing persecution in those countries. Otherwise the so-called refugees are economic opportunists.
Furthermore I am not afraid to put my name to my comments and I am not hiding behind a pseudonym.
Greg
Accept Abbott. Nurture him. Get to know him. Give him a chance. He won’t let you down.
Mate Labor is good in short sharp shifts.
But in terms of delivering to you a safe secure life, you are better off asking the Taliban for mercy.
OMG Michael, another believer in miracles, thats what it will take to get the mad monk over the line first..Abbott wont let you down, just like he didnt let all those pregnant women down when he was health Minister and ripped a billion dollars out of health for his rat mate Howard so he could pork barrel in Coalition held seats. Just like as a devout Christian he sat back and allowed Dr Haneef be arrested and detained without charge then deported still without charge. The same God fearing trustworthy Abbott who sat back and agreed with the rat Howard over the Tampa debacle. The same Christian Abbott who agreed with his boss and did the Christian thing and watched as detainees were locked up behind barbed wire, as they attempted suicide, as they harmed themselves, as mental problems ran amok. The same Abbott who sat as silent as a mute during the AWB scandal, who foul mouths women in public, caught on National TV, yea sure he wont let you down. He will ensure you have a safe secure life as long as you are not a worker, work choices is back on the agenda. Thats the stuff that comes to mind immediately. You can have him.
GREG- You don’t have to “hide behind a pseudomyn” because you’re male! In my world as a woman, life is much different! However, I’m in the process of writing a book, and if I’m fortunate enough to have a sympathetic organisation to publish it, I’ve already determined, against professional advice, that I will use my full (original)given name and present one! It’s very easy for a man, in a man’s world to protest at women like me, but I bet you have no idea of the lives many women, including those closest or close to you are forced to live. And, anyway, you’re performing to form - shoot the messenger - it’s a good way of disenfranchising (her) message! How old are you Greg? 20?
When you make comments such as this, “. Most of the people who force their way into this country are not asylum seekers but illegal immigrants masquerading as refugees.” you are showing your ignorance! The report called, ‘As a Last Resort’ about the detention of children stated that, 92% of Iranian chn were recognised as in need of asylum, and 98% of Iraqi chn were recognised in the same way, and that jailing kids should only be used as ‘a last resort’? Have you read that report Greg? The overwhelming number of people who come here by boat seeking asylum are deemed to be ‘genuine’ refugees, as opposed to the over 95% who are usually white and speak English! The fact that you speak out of gross ignorance does not and will never change these facts!
If Australia doesn’t want ‘boat people’ then we should stop killing people in Iraq, Afghanistan and supporting govts who kill, imprison its citizens. Countries such as Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Iraq, China, Iran etc. We have a responsibility to act as the kind of country we preach - uphold democracy, human rights, the rule of law, and not go against the agreements that we regularly re-commit to, such as the Declaration on the Rights of the Child, and the Declaration of Human Rights’ Laws pertaining to the rights of those who seek asylum etc? If we have no intention of upholding these commitments, then we should have the guts to say so! You can’t have it both ways, like Howard used to spruike always!
As for paying the way for their journey here. People who arrive here without papers etc, were, under Howard, not deemed to be genuine, as they had no evidence to prove that they were in need of protection. People who arrived here with papers, were, under Howard, not deemed to be genuine, because they DID have papers - if they had papers from a govt utility, then they really didn’t have sufficient reason to leave. In short, they couldn’t win! In countries like Iraq and Sri Lanka, to leave the country was and in the case of Sri Lanka(now) are classified as traitors - punishable by death or at best, prison with a good dose of torture. Then of course, there were people like Cornelia Rau or Vivien Alvarez Solon? Know about them do you Greg?
I ask you, in their position, what would you do?
MONEY? People from Iraq, Iran & Afghanistan frequently pool their ‘family monies’ in order for the young son, whose father, uncle etc have frequently been murdered, to seek a new life. Those families frequently end up homeless and living in awful conditions, just because they want to save that young man’s life.
I know you’re speaking rubbish, as I have a very good friend, who is an advocate for young adults who are “genuine” refugees, but that our govt(under Howard) cast aside. She takes these people into her home, cares for them and seeks either work or further education, in order for them to have a future. Some of them have been people, who via their detention have ended up with severe mental illnesses, such as depression. I urge you to read of the things the current Australian of the Year( a psychiatrist, Patrick McGorry, who insists, that our detention centres are places that cause mental illnesses) who has in excess of 20+ yrs experience of mental illnesses. What qualifications do you have, apart from your obvious prejeduces? Why do you recognise those from PNG(who I agree with, by the way) but negate those rights, without knowing their stories of others? Selective racism is it?
The people who “scrape” up $15,000 are not the majority. Certainly not those from the Middle East. There are people like Julian Burnside, a highly educated man, a QC in fact, who openly acknowledges, that prior to Tampa, he, like you, thought, that those who are here ‘illegally’ have no right to be here. Then(unlike you) he started to acquaint himself with the legal position re asylum seekers, and he’s the first one to admit his mistake, and in every interview that I’ve heard, always reinforces the fact, that those seeking asylum are not “illegals”? Pity about your ignorance isn’t it?
So, Greg, what’s your background? Private school education? Public school education of parents who weren’t doing it tough? What have you done in your adult life to educate yourself about the lives of others? Of women? Of others in this country who, by one way or another, don’t have your privileged position.
When it’s safe for women and girls to walk the streets of this country, alone and at night, then I’ll be the first one to put my name out there in lights? Until then, don’t reinforce your male feelings of paternalism, patriarchy by having the audacity to tell me how I should live or protect myself? In my lifetime, I’ve had so much paternalistic/patronising crap, that the top of my head is almost flat via the ‘pat pat, there there dear’ attitude/s!
MICHAEL - “Accept Abbott, nurture him” Oh please! Ask Abbott what he got up to when he was (a) living in the seminary, and (b) when he was at University? Apart from the woman he thought was pregnant with his son - but he, being a gutless bastard didn’t have the guts to support her! Just the sort of bloke you’d like your son to grow up like????
Go, LIZ45! Beware of listening to what a man says but observe what he does. It’s that simple.
I am sorry that Tony Abbott is making Rudd look so bad, it is making you all feel awful, I can tell. The stupid campaign photo of Kev 07 looks like one of those kitch communist propaganda photos. People are now seeing the contrast between a party where the captain was playing for the other side and one where the captain is leading his own team.
I notice the cartoonists are drawing a much uglier Rudd now, Tin Tin is well gone.
When you compare the two, well, Tony Abbott is streets ahead, worst of all for Mr Rudd, his strengths are Rudds weaknesses ( being human, clear communication to wide audience, being long lean and handsome, not being a white blob, having a good brain , sleeping for more than a few hours a night etc etc)
I think Crikey is the only place you can see that photo of Kevin 07 anymore, everybody else has moved on.
The cummulative effect of fuel watch etc etc is starting to show.
Did anyone else see Julia G flinch when asked about the apology on the 7.30 report? pretty funny :>
My question to Mr Moderator is :
How long does it take for you to make up your mind as to weather I’m in 0r out?
I’m an unashamed neocon.
Deal with it!
Crikey you are pathetic!!!!!
MICHAEL - “How long does it take for you to make up your mind as to weather I’m in 0r out?” It’s spelt ‘whether’ in this instance! The ‘weather’ you’ve used is in relation to whether it’s raining, the sun is shining, or whether the weather is cloudy and humid? Where did you go to school again?
You’re “an unashamed neocon”! Deal with it! No, sadly, if you’re like your US counterparts, my grandchildren’s children will still be dealing with IT! What you helped create! Possibly, WW3! Will you deal with that reality? How exactly?
You’re the one who’s pathetic! Ignorant and wanton as well!
MICHAEL - “If it’s not in keeping with Crikey Left wing policy, it gets lost in translation so this may not reach you because the gatekeepers understand that ladies on this site can’t stand anything that that requires thought and answers.
I get that!
I understand that females need protection. I mean there is only so much you can take, being females and all.
But listen to me.”
As my late sister would say, ‘lydies(ladies) sip tea and play bridege - women DO THINGS - they go out to work, raise kids, get involved in their community etc!’
I’ve got one word for you - “get f****d!
BANANAPRINCESS - I tell you what! Get Abbott to fess up to what he really did when he was a Uni student. You know, the type of thing he wouldn’t want his wife or 3 daughters to know, let alone his Mum or George Pell! Oh, well, in the case of Pell, he mightn’t mind, since the cc has a well known history in these things! Don’t get too smart, or the victim just might decide to go public!!!!!Ask him! Go on!
Greg Angelo, you’re wrong the overwhelming majority of those people seeking asylum are granted it. Your point is so weak and untrue that I’m not even going to get a link for you. They are not, by the laws of this country, illegal, but you just keep trotting out that silly line. As for traversing safe juridictions get a map and see where you go once you leave the safety of Sri lanka or afghanistan. better yet hop in a nice safe boat and sail over the indian ocean…
Go liz go, kick against those pricks
Michael you star, unashamed to be an adherent of the political faith that crippled the world economy, increased the concentration of wealth in the hands of an ever smaller few, lied to the world about wmds, torturers, electoral cheats and the embroilers of the US in TWO unwinnable wars which have so far cost the lives of upwards of 500,000 people.
bananaprincess do you think there should be more to political disccussion in this country than your hatred of one polititician. Grow up or go back to yelling insults out the window of you car.
Michael - 26th March 2007 - “The British government was advised against publicly criticising a report estimating that 655,000 Iraqis had died due to the war, the BBC has learnt.
Iraqi Health Ministry figures put the toll at less than 10% of the total in the survey, published in the Lancet.
But the Ministry of Defence’s chief scientific adviser said the survey’s methods were “close to best practice” and the study design was “robust”.
But a memo by the MoD’s Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Roy Anderson, on 13 October, states: “The study design is robust and employs methods that are regarded as close to “best practice” in this area, given the difficulties of data collection and verification in the present circumstances in Iraq.”
Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered Since The U.S. Invaded Iraq “1,366,350”
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
Cost of War in Iraq & Afghanistan
$965,276,593,897
http://www.costofwar.com/
Another couple of informative articles that may or then again, may not interest you are?
Iraqi Women Under US Occupation
by Ghali Hassan
Global Research, May 6, 2005
- 2005-06-16
Last updated November 22, 2007 6:25 p.m. PT
Iraqi children bear the burden of an uncalled-for war
By CÉSAR CHELALA
GUEST COLUMNIST
So, Michael, as a neocon. Did you agree with the document, “Project For A New American Century”? Written by some well known neo-cons - George W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Richard Pearl and others! What happened on 9/11 was so ‘convenient’ wasn’t it? In fact, more than one of the above referred to it as a ‘positive’ that came out of 9/11. If even some of the accusations of that day are true, what would you say to their families? Why were/are those ‘heroes’ who worked so tirelessly at ground zero been allowed to die as a result of the shit they inhaled, and why are too many being turned away by the you beaut health system in the US, not to mention the you beaut national govt, borne out of the “world’s biggest democracy”?
Go to http://www.freedocumentaries.org and watch ‘Sicko’? Most informative!
SBH - Spot on! I get so sick to death of those who willingly choose to ignore the reality, and insult my intelligence by taking the ‘high moral ground’ and impose their ignorance and lack of even making the slightest effort to educate themselves of the reality. When their actions only affects them, I don’t care, when it means negating the horrific reality of people who’ve had their lives literally blown apart by this country, I just fume! They’re worse than evil - they knowingly contribute to killing other womens’ babies in other countries! Shame on them!
The struggle for truth continues!
No SBH, GA is not “wrong”.
He did not deny that “the overwhelming majority of those people seeking asylum are granted it” as you assert.
Fatuous argument is one of your defining characteristics.
You should really try the normal route of disagreeing with his actual assertions and arguments but then …….. you’re probably not capable.
LIZ45 – “What is happening with those rooves?” – people are allowed to make spelling mistakes. I will not question where you went to school because you made a spelling mistake.
“I’ve got one word for you - “get f****d” – also anyone could attack you for not being able to count. But obviously you can count to two and this was a simple mistake.
“Apart from the woman he thought was pregnant with his son - but he, being a gutless bastard didn’t have the guts to support her! Just the sort of bloke you’d like your son to grow up like?” – it is my understanding is that T. Abbott was not aware he had a son and handled the situation very well both when he found out about his supposed son and when he found out it was not his… all in front of the prying eyes of the media. I don’t like him but I thought he handled this situation well.
“Get Abbott to fess up to what he really did when he was a Uni student. You know, the type of thing he wouldn’t want his wife or 3 daughters to know, let alone his Mum or George Pell! Oh, well, in the case of Pell, he mightn’t mind, since the cc has a well known history in these things! Don’t get too smart, or the victim just might decide to go public!!!!!Ask him! Go on!” – I get the impression you are trying to accuse T. Abbott of something morally corrupt and possibly illegal. Otherwise it is none of our business. Please do not make such accusations unless you are prepared to wear the consequences if they end up being untrue.
When you lost your cool you lost my respect. Even though I sure that you do not care…
PS. Howard was terrible. Rudd is not that much better. Turnbull may have had more conviction than either. Abbott has strong convictions that simply scare me… does it really matter who leads us? Probably not. Although one day someone might inspire me.
LIZ45 - my apologies. Just realised that rooves is acceptable. I await your retort with some apprehension…
LIZ45 said “I’m in the process of writing a book”
Oh god. No!
LIZ45 said
“So, Greg, what’s your background? Private school education? Public school education of parents who weren’t doing it tough? What have you done in your adult life to educate yourself about the lives of others? Of women? Of others in this country who, by one way or another, don’t have your privileged position.”
LIZ45,
if you want to influence people and get them to see your point of view, try being persuasive, rather than argumentative, presumptive and rude!
why do people bring the Iraqi War into any debate without offering a view on the 2+ million Kurdish people that Sadaam murdered? it is sad, to be honest.
LIZ45, it appears you would benefit from a break to calm down a bit. I can almost feel the spittle on my face ..
Capable JamesK but I’m not getting into hysterical polemics.
For the benefit of other readers who wish to debunk this very common slur here’s the quote
“Most of the people who force their way into this country are not asylum seekers but illegal immigrants”
a) around 84% of people who enter (how some poor f#ck in a fishing boat can ‘force’ his or her way into the country is beyond me) the country are granted refugee status.
b) the High Court of Australia has described the term ‘illegal’ when dealing with asylum seekers ‘nugatory’.
Now you do your own homework because both these issues have been gone through exhaustively in previous posts over the last few months. James Mac has provided copius references, as have others.
A more lasting question James is why you think that being polemical does anything to advance the interests of this country or your side of politics. So much of what you post is just attack and so little reason, discussion or debate. Your country requires more of you than that and it’s about time you grew up and started making a contribution.
Napoleon dynamite er? what. So if I object to the Iraq war I’m complicit in the genocide of Kurds? Like if I oppose the NTER I’m a paedophile?
@Liz 45
Normally I would not respond to personal abuse, especially from somebody without the courage to use their real name. However in this situation I believe I need to respond.In relation to refugees, my comment stands. Of course people unhappy with their own country where there is turmoil and strife and they can readily create/ fabricate a case to become treated as refugees. That is not my point. It is the ones that pay to get here, bypassing countries where as refugees they would be safe, to come to Australia because of the obvious pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that I am unhappy about. There are tens of millions of refugees in the world, so how many million refugees are you want share our country with? What is the most appropriate method of selecting refugees for this country in view of the limited capacity to absorb them? This question has not been answered.
Single issue advocates can get their rocks off by pushing a particular line, but they are not addressing the broader social issues of how much we as a country are prepared to afford. The average Australian whilst empathetic does not want to have his or her standard of living substantially degraded by hundreds of thousands of refugees coming into the country. There are potentially millions of people in this situation. The refugees I have sympathy for those who cannot bribe their way to the head of the queue using people smugglers. I’m quite happy for the government to set refugee quotas each year and limit the intake to that level. I’m also quite happy for those who try to force their way in to suffer as a consequence otherwise all you will have anarchy. Rudd has finally recognised this by virtually emulating Howard’s policy of maintaining strict controls on those who choose to bypass our immigration systemcontrary to his rhetoric before the last election.
As to personal attacks, I am not 20 and I did not have a private school education. I have a working class background and unfounded prejudicial and stereotypical assumptions do not do you justice.
OK greg which ‘safe’ countries can a Sri Lankan Tamil bypass before reaching Australia?
As for the numbers of refugees that enter this country there are a couple of points
1) All Australian governments encourage net migration. Isolating refugees as the group to focus on when considering Australian demographics is inhumane and of dubious benefit.
2) We don’t get hundreds of thousands of refugees coming into the country each year, we get 13,500. We do get hundreds of thousand of other entrants. There are potentially millions of people most of whom go somewhere other than Australia and no doubt will continue to. Millions of people die of malaria each year. They don’t die in Australia. It would be stupid for the Federal Government to spend vast fortunes saving us from the threat of malarial death because it is not a credible threat. The same logic applies to refugees.
3) There is no queue. Like most of the anti-refugee nonsense that’s put around, it’s an invention of people who want to scare you to achieve their political ends. Someone with a working class background should be a wake up to these sotrs of tactics.
Liz I’m back on air fit & refreshed.
I see you were busy last night - can’t be easy typing whilst hanging upside down, talons holding branch and wings folded.
You must be very skilled - and very tired.
But you are becoming boring my girl - hasn’t anyone told you the 60’s revolution is over - the world has moved on and still you hide in the jungle, rifle on shoulder, looking for Yankees, ranting and raving like rabid hobo.
I kinda feel sorry for you.
On a brighter note, I’ve nominated you as Heritage item on Crikey.
Mwah!
What part of “illegal immigrants masquerading as refugees” does SBH find so difficult that he has to imagine a false assertion that he can then readily and characteristically pretentiously disagree with?
@ SBH another courageous anonymous respondent.
WhenI last looked at a map, India was a lot closer to Sri Lanka then Australia, and a boat trip would be much safer, although India’s social security systems doesn’t measure up to Australia’s.
A recent Google search turned up a statistic of something like 8 million refugees, so the potential is enormous.
The malaria analogy is so facile it does not deserve response.
There is a refugee queue which is administered by the UNHCR. Check it out.
Being quite selfish as a country, we apply skill and health testing to potential immigrants so that they are not a net drain on the economy.
I have no problem with people being empathetic with people less fortunate than themselves, so let them voluntarily forego a bigger proportion of their income and channel it into helping refugees in other countries, but don’t expect the rest of us shoulder the burden on an involuntary basis. Charity begins at home.
I’ll paint the scene - Gone With The Wind - the fat mammy is upset at the unfairness of the situation and says:
” If it ain’t fitten, it just ain’t fitten “
And there’s the answer. Why try to came in through the back door at the hindrance of honest refugees who apply through proper channels? - It just ain’t fitten!
: Michael
Comment:
Liz I’m back on air fit & refreshed.
I see you were busy last night - can’t be easy typing whilst hanging upside down, talons holding branch and wings folded.
If you continue with that type of abuse, may well be time for the moderators to send you where MPM has gone…
Dave I like you, you’re a funny guy, a bit slow and thoroughly boring but quite harmless.
I’d like to collect you, place you in a little box with lots of cotton wool and look at you every now and again - just to remind myself of how lucky I am to be normal.
We really must find you a life somewhere - let me look.
Greg there’s five pages of G Angelos in the melbourne white pages so your as anonymous to me as I am to you. what ever kind of point that proves I really don’t know.
India’s not a signatory to the convention greg. If they go there there (across straits patrolled by two navies) they get deported back to Sri lanka where they are warmly received. Look up a map that shows signatories to the convention. Tamils can’t just rock in to a UN office and ask to be processed, they have to leave the country.
By your logic a person who jumps for a burning building is somehow less worthy than those who exit in an orderly fashion by the door. It just doesn’t take into account the reasons or circumstances of the small number of people who come by boat.
What’s facile is that you pretend that there is some potential that a) our governments policies can somehow affect that 8 million number ( a point of view which even MPM wouldn’t push) and that b) there is the remotest potentiall for that number of people are ever likely to come to australia. Its simply idiotic.
I’m not arguing with you because supporters of Trofim Lysenko, facts aren’t persuasive to you. It must be something deeper in you that can judge the motivations of people you’ve never met.
Applicants for refugee status do not have their claims determined by when they decided to apply. There’s no queue, no line to join, no first in best dressed, no take a number. Saying there is isn’t an argument it just a repetitious lie.
JamesK again no contribution, but what patr of nugatory don’t you understand. No no little one it’s not a delicious almond based european confection. Time to get your dictionary out.
Michael…ok
GREG - “That is not my point. It is the ones that pay to get here, bypassing countries where as refugees they would be safe, to come to Australia because of the obvious pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that I am unhappy about.”
And what country would you suggest? Indonesia? Indonesia is not committed to the Migration Laws like Australia is. There’s also been lots of evidence of the way people are being treated, including pregnant women and babies. I wouldn’t like to have my kids in that environment. There’s a woman ready to give birth on that floating living hell in Indonesia - I’ll wait for Abbott to plead on her behalf shall I?
Why do you keep on with your untrue nonsense re the motivations of those seeking asylum. Apart from the indigenous peoples of this country, the rest of us arrived by boat or plane or our ancestors did. In fact, more than 20% of Australians were born overseas, in NSW I believe it’s 40%. There’s a good book called, ‘Following Them Home’ about what happens to those who’ve been forcibly removed from this country - usually unjustly and they end up dead, or imprisoned or disappeared or ??? At best, I think we’re guilty of contributory manslaughter when that happens. There’s ‘Dark Victory’ about the Tampa disgrace; ‘From Nothing to Zero’ - (stories from children) the title from a comment a young boy made after being in detention - he came from nothing to zero! ‘Seeking Asylum’ Heather??? A couple by Fr Frank Brennan and others! Articles, documentaries, including the one about the Captain of the Tampa, Arnie Rinnan???(not sure - lovely man though!)Then there’s the one about the 353 asylum seekers who were probably allowed to drown on SIEV X - ‘A Certain Maritime Incident’? I have heaps of documentaries, 4 Corners programs, Cutting Edge and interviews across the media in the country on this subject and the invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq
India probably doesn’t like Sri Lankans, particularly those who are fleeing the dictatorship and the military! India also has a horrific level of poverty, where as, in this country, unless you’re living in the top end and an aboriginal person, the level of poverty is lower - thankfully!(Even though they have the lowest life expectancy stats of any indigenous peoples in the world?? Great stuff?).
As if a person could front up to Saddam and ask for a visa - to anywhere. With the yanks in charge, life for many is worse - that’s if you bother to read anything factual about the carnage we’ve helped to create?
As for the old question of the queue - where is the queue in Afghanistan or Sri Lanka or Iraq? Our military/police support the dictatorships of both Sri Lanka and Burma - we help provide them with the tools/training to terrorise their people. we’re also responsible for causing 4 million people to flee from Iraq - 2 million within the country and 2 million have left. We support the many military jails in Iraq, where boys of 12 or more can also be locked up - for the terrible crime of not liking the occupiers! I’m damned sure I wouldn’t either. But if the US and our federal govt think it’s OK, then it must be. Why don’t you read http://www.handsoffiraqioil.org and see what the so-called war was all about!
WHAT ABOUT THE UP TO 60,000 WHO, ON ANY GIVEN DAY COULD BE HERE WITHOUT A CURRENT OR APPROPRIATE VISA? DON’T MIND COVERING THEIR COSTS I SUPPOSE? Why don’t you suggest that the states’ police forces undertake raids on a regular basis? Not enough resources? Yes, but they’re predominantly white and speak English, so that’s OK isn’t it Michael? Trust you to use the example you did - mamma? Says a lot about you! No male example to use, no Australian one to use? No anglo-saxon example?
MICHAEL - The 60’s was just the beginning of the feminist revolution - there’s still a long way to go. Lots of men don’t have a problem with feminism, as they’re learned enough and compassionate enough and aren’t afraid of losing some of their power??? to make life more equal and just for women. Only men who feel threatened have a problem with the concept! 80% of the world’s poorest people are women; women do much/most of the work, but own only 1% of the assets; the crimes of rape and violence in wars most profoundly affects women and their children; and even in this country, women only receive up to 85% of men’s income/s. A woman is murdered in this country every 7-10 days by their partner/husbands; one in 3 women will be abused in their lifetimes, and one in 3-4 will be sexually abused before they reach 18. It’s not long since Judges blamed women being on the street at night or had drunk alcohol or worn short skirts as a reason for being raped. Blame the victim and shoot the messenger is alive and well on this site also! In fact, only last yr, a Judge asserted that a woman in WA was only the victim of a ‘technical’ rape as she was drunk and couldn’t say ‘no’?
Thankfully in NSW, a male must ensure that he has consent all the way, otherwise he’s guilty of an assault. A woman has the right to say ‘no’ at any time, and if he’s not sure re consent he must stop! If a woman is drunk or drugged, she’s deemed to be unable to give consent, and so a sexual assault will result if he continues!
HOW LONG DID WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THIS LAW???You blokes were in the front line, championing our cause, of course!
WorstChoices forced female wages down, and Howard’s unjust laws encouraged employers to cause hardship and sackings on women and the young. Women’s incomes (and many other policies - read Anne Summers ‘The End of Equality’) went backwards under Howard, and in fact have not improved since 1985 - proportionally of course. Men’s have, women haven’t!
Both you & Greg either feel inferior, or feel so superior to women, that you can’t help the condescencion and paternalism rampaging through. The information I’ve provided re asylum seekers is true, and if you both got off your bums and did some reading, you’d find out that you’re assertions are untrue. There’s lots of books out there - I got many on loan from my local library.
We’re part of a global community, we trade with other countries; we take advantage of many billions of dollars in trade etc. We’ve also participated or not spoken out about abuses, murders, oppression etc of the US/UK in their quest for empire building & ownership of other countries resources. If we do all this, we must accept some responsiblity for the repercussions that follow. Iraq will probably never be a functioning country again, thanks in part to us, and Afghanistan has been in wars for over 30 yrs - another disaster - thanks also to us! The motivation was greed and resources and power! And you obviously think that’s OK? Well I don’t!
David….my pleasure
Some of you blokes are amazing.
You think you can demean, abuse, belittle, be patronising, paternalistic and otherwise show your ignorance of many things, but stand tall on your ingrained attitude of superiority, that you think you’re not offensive? That you’re not rude! That you are frequently the ones to ‘shoot the messenger’ but don’t have the balls to cop it back - that you’re just plain bloody perfect - everyone should just realise it straight off. Little gems of humanity, buzzing around putting your naturally correct and superior points of view? Me, I’m the one of the ‘pesky people’ who have the audacity to disagree with you all! Wow! Grow up! If you can’t stand the heat, bzzzzzzzzzz off somewhere else!
GREG - As for being inundated by the thousands and thousands of refugees. When it comes to accepting asylum seekers per head of population, Australia is well down the list. We’re in no danger of being overwhelmed by refugees. On the contrary, there are tens of thousands taking up space in this country who don’t have a current visa - why don’t you whip up some hysteria and lies about them? They’re mostly english speaking and even when found out don’t get put in detention while awaiting their claim - only when they’re denied are they detained! How’s that for being fair! I have no problem with health and security checks.
The alleged perpetrators of 9/11 all FLEW to the US. In fact, some were reported to the FBI but they did nothing about the concerns? Why? I don’t think there’s an alleged terrorist who arrived in a leaky boat?
On a serious note Elizabeth, there’s been another boatload sighted off Bronte Beach.
You got some room in your place cause we’re all stocked up here.
MICHAEL - No, I don’t have room, but I my friend who’s been volunteering for many yrs now has a young refugee living with her while she helps support him while he furthers his education. I had the pleasure of meeting him the other day - he’s not the first one either.
What do you do in your community to help others, Michael?
They conned this country into taking part in their killing spree! They’re the ones responsible for a lot of the misery forcing people to flee their country!
Not worth the grief are they???
*********************************************
Sibel Edmonds: The Traitors Among Us
Sibel Edmonds Has Named Names. Why Isn’t The Media Reporting The Story?
By Brad Friedman
March 01, 2010 - “Hustler” – March 2010 — SIBEL EDMONDS, a former FBI translator, claims that the following government officials have committed what amount to acts of treason. They are lawmakers Dennis Hastert, Bob Livingston, Dan Burton, Roy Blunt, Stephen Solarz and Tom Lantos, as well as at least three members of George W. Bush’s inner circle: Douglas Feith, Paul Wolfowitz and Marc Grossman. But is Sibel Edmonds credible?
“Absolutely, she’s credible,” Senator Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) told CBS’s 60 Minutes when he was asked about her in 2002. “The reason I feel she’s very credible is because people within the FBI have corroborated a lot of her story.” Edmonds’s remarkable allegations of bribery, blackmail, infiltration of the U.S. government and the theft of nuclear secrets by foreign allies and enemies alike rocked the Bush Administration. In fact, Bush and company actually prevented Edmonds from telling the American people what she knew—up until now.
You can read the rest of the article here!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24886.htm
Well LIZ45, looks like you’ve succeeded in yelling everyone else down on this forum. I posted one short observation while casually browsing lots of threads on this site. My inbox notifies me of another comment, and another, and another … It seems the discussion has descended into lobbing verbal grenades at each other with not a lot in the way of intelligent input, and not a lot of relevance to the original article. It would be easier to digest your posts by the way, if they were condensed to 5000 words or less per post.
Yes, Mr PICARD Sir!
Hang in Liz, you make more sense than all of these Abbott huggers combined. The nation will catch up with this hypocrite, make believe Christian. The election campaign hasn’t started yet, these raucous right wing Catholics who are the loud minority at the moment, wont know whats hit them when the real Abbott is exposed. he will never ever be PM, bet on it.
DAVID - Thank you! As a young girl raised as a catholic in a school run by the same order as Mary McKIllop, I know the hypocrisy first hand. The nun in 4.5.6th classes was a bully, a woman who used humilliation as a ‘tool’ and also used the small of her hand to thump a head into the blackboard, or a thick ruler on its side(particularly for those like me who played the piano??) - a real bitch(I rarely use that word as my sons will attest). My kids went to a State school of course, and I left the church at a young age due to their rules re contraception and emphasis on MONEY! I put the envelopes in the bin and never went back. The more I learn the angrier about this mob I become! Abbott personifies the worst of them all!