Abortion, Queensland and a law unchanged since 1861
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Late last year, a young Australian woman whom I will call Joanne* was delighted to find that her home pregnancy test was positive. She and her partner had been hoping for some time for this moment — the pregnancy was very much wanted. She was making all sorts of plans for the birth of her baby when at three months of pregnancy she underwent the routine fetal screening tests now offered to every pregnant woman in Australia through Medicare. The aim of these tests is to detect in the womb abnormalities, which may be incompatible with life for the child once it is born, or with the quality of life. One of the possibilities implicit in the provision of these screening tests is that if a serious abnormality is detected the woman may choose to terminate the pregnancy. The tests now offered are extremely sophisticated and high-tech and the investment of Commonwealth tax dollars in them is considerable. It is easy to imagine Joanne’s distress when she learnt that the initial tests suggested that her baby might indeed have a severe abnormality. Definitive ultrasound scanning confirmed the fetal brain had not developed, a condition known as anencephaly, and that although the pregnancy might continue until term the child would be born lacking more than 90% of the brain, a situation incompatible with life. Despite their distress, Joanne and her partner had little difficulty making the decision that the pregnancy should be terminated; they are intelligent and rational people. However, they then became aware of a major obstacle: they live in Queensland. They were shattered to find that in Queensland — unlike every other state and territory across the country — such an abnormality is not sufficient grounds for an abortion in the public hospital that had made the diagnosis. Joanne was given two choices. The first was to be seen by a psychiatrist and a social worker and to convince these people that, despite no previous history of psychological disorder, her mental state was so affected by the diagnosis of this abnormality at 14 weeks of pregnancy that abortion was needed to prevent her committing suicide, opinions that would then be considered by a hospital committee able to say yes or no to her request. All of this, of course, was going to take considerable time, during which Joanne would continue to carry the abnormal fetus who could never be the healthy happy baby she had planned for. The alternative was to have the abortion performed privately. However, it was clear to Joanne and her partner that if the abortion was unlawful on the grounds of fetal abnormality in the public hospital it must be equally unlawful in a private hospital in Queensland. Joanne felt that she could not cope with the farce of lying to the psychiatrist and made arrangements to have the procedure done privately in NSW, something the couple could not easily afford. Moreover, having to travel away from home was a difficult experience and she did not get the psychological support during this ordeal that should have been her right, and which is available for women in this difficult position in every other Australian state. Meanwhile in Cairns no date has yet been set for the trial by jury of the young couple charged with procuring an abortion for the woman in December 2008. Apparently there is a backlog of cases in the Cairns District Court as there is currently only one judge available, who does not hear criminal cases. The two young people are on bail, they have had to move house after being firebombed, and she has lost her job. Moreover, without any conviction having yet been recorded, the woman’s reputation is besmirched around the planet — Google her name and you will get more than 185,000 responses.
The Premier of Queensland in January this year stated that there will be no changes made by her government to the state’s 19th-century abortion laws (sections 224-226 and section 282 of the Criminal Code), which make abortion a crime for the woman concerned, any person performing an abortion, and any person assisting. Section 282 allows of an exception only to save the life of the woman. This is now being rigidly enforced throughout Queensland Health hospitals — the Minister for Health has stated in writing that no abortion may be done for fetal abnormality unless the woman’s life is demonstrably in danger. The woman with a diagnosis such as Joanne’s, or with a child with no kidneys, or serious heart defects that cannot be corrected by surgery after birth, can claim to be suicidal and thereby be “allowed” an abortion — or she can continue the pregnancy, ultimately give birth, and watch her baby slowly die. It would appear from the persistence with which the Cairns case has been prosecuted that the justice system is equally determined to enforce the antiquated Queensland law, the wording of which is unchanged since 1861. In mid-2009, all Queensland specialist gynaecologists involved in the care of women requesting termination of pregnancy for diagnosed severe fetal abnormality withdrew their services, due to concerns about their legal position in this regard; legal opinions were obtained individually and through the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Minor cosmetic amendments by Parliament to section 282 of the Criminal Code in September last year did not alter our legal opinion that performing a termination of pregnancy for fetal abnormality, no matter how severe that abnormality, remains a crime in Queensland, and the doctor involved risks prosecution. Very restricted services have been resumed in a few hospitals but not all, and most women given the diagnosis of a serious fetal abnormality are simply being left to fend for themselves. While about 100 women were sent interstate last year for termination, Queensland Health has now ceased this practice; moreover hard-pressed services in other states have understandably demurred at suggestions that they might permanently take on this role. It has been said by the Premier that while she is “pro-choice”, she does not have the numbers to take abortion law reform to Parliament and have it passed (unlike the surrogacy legislation, which has recently been passed in that same Parliament without the sky falling in.) If this is the case, there would seem to be a simple solution: refer the out-of-date repressive abortion laws to the Queensland Law Reform Commission, whose job it is to reform the law. A process similar to that carried out in Victoria would be appropriate: a public inquiry by which every single Queenslander with a view on the matter could be heard, a careful examination of the law, and recommendations to Parliament on reform, possibly including decriminalisation. This would have the advantage of distancing the matter from the faint-hearted Cabinet, while providing a very accurate picture of what Queenslanders do actually want in the way of safe, legal accessible abortion for women who need to make such a decision for themselves. The Premier has also claimed that the Victorian process is unsuitable for Queensland because Queensland is “different”. Some differences there may be, but Queensland women, just like their Victorian sisters, unfortunately do experience unplanned pregnancy in large numbers every year. While better sex education and better contraception and contraceptive education services are the key to reducing abortion rates, as shown in many European countries, there is an urgent need for safe and legal abortion in Queensland. It is completely unacceptable that Queensland women continue to be denied choices that are available and accessible to all other Australian women. * Name has been changed to protect this woman’s privacy |
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38 Comments
Great article, Caroline, and shame on the Qld government.
The proposition that Qld is somehow “different” is a nonsense. I have been directly involved in abortion law reform in two states and observed it in two more - the issues are the same the world over. The arguements and counter-arguements are the same, the evidence base is the same, the public attitudes are largely the same, the anti-choice tactics are the same, the way women suffer due to draconian laws is the same.
The Victorian Law Reform Commission (VLRC) process that Caroline referred to thoroughly investigated all the issues raised by the community and the various interest groups. It provided evidence and explained its reasoning for all its decisions in its final report which can be found here:
http://www.lawreform.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/justlib/Law+Reform/Home/Completed+Projects/Abortion/
While I would support any process that leads to decriminalisation, I also think a repeat process in each state is unnecessary. The VLRC report uses national and international data and expert advice, not just Victorian. I cannot see how any state based Law Reform Commission could investigate the same issue and not come to the same conclusion.
Qld women need to let their political leaders know that they are sick of being treated like criminals for seeking legitimate health services, and will vote for a politicians who support decriminalisation.
Caroline, my heart goes out to *Joanne, and if I’d known her I would’ve offered her support. It is just so cruel that in a country that boasts of a ‘fair go’ and feelings of humanity etc, that this situation is still current in 2010.
Anna Bligh is showing a ‘gutless’ response to this issue, and I’d like her to explain what’s so “different” about the women in Victoria? I’m not sure whether she’s being derogatory to either state, or that women in Victoria have some different physical dimension that means they’re never in this position? I’d also like to know who informed the police? How many people would know of this situation? The young couple involved would hardly be advertising their personal dilemma to the world?
“It is completely unacceptable that Queensland women continue to be denied choices that are available and accessible to all other Australian women.by”
There’s no need to put the words fair go and gutless in inverted commas. It has been clear for months that Anna Bligh has both a conscience and a pretty reliable nose for political dilemmas. And she has a couple of lively political issues on her plate which have a higher priority at this moment in the electoral cycle (there’s no state election in Queensland this year).
But it might become the circuit breaker the ALP Premier needs after the federal election to change her own fortunes. There is no doubt that a proposal to change the abortion legislation in Queensland would strongly differentiate the ALP from the rest. Queenslanders, women in particular, would have a perfect opportunity to indicate whether they want the state to be part of the 21st century or not. All we need is for Anna to take the chance. It’s up to her.
It sickening when the media argues a black and white case in the area of abortion, in fear of being vilified. The example Caroline gives, which is an example of several scenarios that occur and probably makes up a majority of abortions, should not be a pro and anti abortion argument but of medical necessity. WA had their own “Cairns” example many years ago and for a conservative state they consciously agreed to correct the laws, what a pity that Queensland doesn’t have the guts to do the same.
Another interesting perspective on this issue would be for Crikey to examine the continued very small reach of any semblance of sex education in Queensland’s education system and the comparatively high rates of STDs at even year 10 across the State. If that doesn’t lean on the conscience of the conservatives, I don’t know what will.
I understand that many of our young people are actively denied access to basic information at school about how they can protect themselves from STDs and unwanted pregnancies and that this continues in 2010.
I agree that Anna Bligh could well find it the circuit breaker she needs if her party allowed her to be bold in this most important area of public health policy.
10% of a brain should make the baby admirably suited for a future as a Queensland government minister.
How cruel! Not only is the state stopping women accessing terminations for severe fetal abnormalities, they have no intention of providing the additional support that a sick baby entails.
Sounds like the Republic of Gilead to me.
Queensland is different Anna Bligh?? Indeed it is - an abortion law that dates back to the 19th Century shows us all just how ‘different’ !!!!
The Victorian government may have failed us in many areas, but they did get this right!
Somebody should remind the pollies up in Queensland that we are now actually in the 21st century!
HUGH - Thank you for my enlish lesson!
It’s not unusual for a man to think that this issue doesn’t warrant the leader of a state or the nation to attend to, as a matter of urgent justice. This law is not only out of place in 2010’s thinking, but legally as old as ????There’s been plenty of polls taken around the country, which of course, as far as I’m aware includes Queensland (I’m from NSW) that states, that the majority of people believe in pro choice - to leave the decision to individual women.
As with most areas of equal justice, not only in Australia, but around the world, it will be women(as in Victoria) who join as one voice and demand change. Perhaps then, a woman premier just might have the guts to stand with us! Of course it must be added, that there were many men in the Victorian Parlt who added their support - AFTER the women(across all parties) had community support! Too gutless to take the initiative!
Anna Bligh obviously thinks, that selling off the assets of the Queensland people for short term gain, is far more important than caring for a women’s right to access a vital health service - without committing a crime or receive death threats or attempted murder and other forms of assault!
Listen to the screams of the god botherers if someone suggests that children be education re sexual health and contraception - and other related issues! I made sure my sons were informed, but I know from their friends’ experiences, that not many others were. They’d come and talk to me, even if my sons weren’t home! (my sons are in their 40’s now!)
This is a good article and puts forward a strong case for change in law in Qld - until the second last paragraph. Prior to that the justification for abortion had been purely along the lines of the example case of severe and terminal foetal abnormality. My guess is that most people who are middle of the road on the abortion issue would agree with the author and that the Qld laws are unreasonable in this regard.
But then the article suddenly expands its scope in the second last paragraph to include unplanned but otherwise healthy pregnancies - nothing to do with sever foetal abnormality.
Why write the article with a stong line of justification for abortion where there is severe foetal deformity and then chuck in abortions for unwanted pregnancies at the end with no justification? It downgrades the artical from a well argued case by a moderate author to an over-reaching case by a polarised author.
@Liz: Informed, and supplied.
Alex H, I’m sorry I can’t provide you with the appropriate link to Caroline de Costa’s earlier article on this matter from about the middle of last year. At that time she wrote a very educational summary of the various legal and (if you like) political complexities which make the Queensland situation slightly different from other states.
And for those arguing loudly about how backward Queensland is or how clever some other state is or how easy it would be for Queensland to change its legislation - don’t be so crass and unreasonable. True, Victoria has now been brought up to date, but that was only last year, 2009. Don’t even start to pretend that it was a doddle in Victoria because it wasn’t. Anna Bligh is not so stupid as to jump before the time is right. Having a go at the wrong moment, without appropriate political and community support, and then losing - both government and hopes of changes to legislation - would have the critics deriding the woman for ‘not taking advice’….or something. Of course, if she ducks it altogether AND loses government, well, we get what we deserve eh?
ALEX - I take it that you’re a bloke? How would you know? There are a myriad of reasons why women don’t or can’t go ahead with a pregnancy. I’m a woman and a mother and grandmother, but I don’t presume to preach to other women what they should or should not do! I find it even less palatable that a man thinks he can!
“There’s nothing quite as determined as a woman who decides not to have a child that she can not mother” A quote I always remember when I feel like dictating to others!
HUGH - Yes, it’s true that Victoria only did this last year, and as far as I know, probably all the other states are living in the past. But the point to remember here, is that this couple is from Queensland, not some nebulous and unknown part of the country. What is Anna Bligh going to do if this couple end up in jail? Nothing? Appeal on their behalf? It’s all very well for Anna Bligh, as her fertile days are over - there are a lot of women around the country in agony at this time - while we calmly argue their rights and offer no help at all!
In a real democracy, we accept that adults have the right to make their own moral decisions about many ‘tricky’ issues - why do we draw the line at this one? I suggest, that it’s out of fear of the religious right, who incidently, don’t give a toss about women or the babies they may or may not have, and I don’t see too many of them with hands held out ready to take care of dkids with disabilities for the rest of their lives! In fact, I can’t recall any of them even making submissions prior to budget day on the plight of parents of kids with disabilities, or adults either for that matter!
It’s OK Hugh, you can name me as someone you’re taking to task. I’m a ‘big girl’ now, I can take it! I’ll just ask you, how many times have you been pregnant and desperate?
Very good article Caroline and, mostly, understanding and insightful comments. Interesting how men, and women like Anna Bligh, ALWAYS rate as low priority or untouchable those questions that affect women’s lives and life chances……
I’ve never understood why anyone would willingly live in Queensland. It’s always been amongst the most backward of the States. You’re talking about a population of people who voted against daylight saving because of such reasons as it fading their curtains. If only we could excise it from the rest of the nation. It’s been a drain on the Southern States’ finances for over a century now and unlike WA shows no sign of ever being anything but.
What a cruel law on abortion in Queensland and shame on successive Queensland Governments for leaving it in place. I always thought that the Christian God was supposed to be a merciful god. Those Christians who oppose abortion law reform must get their jollies from stories like Joannes.
We have a big problem with Catholic & other religious MP’s who are totally irrational about separation between Church and State. Yes, 1861 British law still reigns in Qld, but in Britain it was repealed in 1967!!
(Queensland never went through the 1960’s. Joh banned it.) I jest, when the evidence shows that Queenslanders are in favour of decriminilisation and pro-choice of abortion.(Monash Uni research - People and Place).
Dissapointingly, the response from Govt. MP’s is a cut and paste response that this young couple from Cairns are somehow deserving to be treated by the law like this because they dared to abort the fetus themselves.
I can’t believe they are willing collectivley to continue with this, even though it is QLD policy platform to legalise abortion.
It’s almost like we have a theocracy (headed by Dep. Premier Paul Lucas who is also Minister for Health). I believe the ALP is better than the Opposition but they are all ratbags on this woman’s right to choose her reproductive destiny.
No Liz, I’m not taking you to task. And no, ANNAMACK, your issue, whatever it is today, or this month or this year, can’t always be the highest political priority on the plate of the politician. You will notice, for instance, that Anna Bligh has a fight on her hands at this very moment with parts of the union movement over her proposal to sell off government assets. They might just arrange to dump (on) her as premier - because they can. I’m not arguing the toss about that proposal I’m just pointing out that Anna Bligh will need the support of some of that same union movement to mount a change to the abortion legislation. That’s the political reality. If she tells the big boys and girls in this or that union to suck it on the privatisation issue they will dump on her over public service wage claims or police union support or some planned legislation. That’s politics.
Oh and JOSHSOMETHING, I came to Queensland from country NSW 38 years ago. It was wild seeing the Country Party turned into the National Party while Joh was the outrageous (almost) dictator that he was. But now I read about the parlous state of the body politic in NSW and wonder about how that happens. And the Victorian question of police integrity - what’s that all about? At least we now know that Queensland is a condition whereas everywhere else is merely a state.
HUGH, you know what? There’s always been something more important than removing/changeing discriminatory or unjust legislation/policies against women. Why are we still having a discussion about equal pay? Why in 2010 is it necessary? Why hasn’t this injustice been corrected long ago? Why? Because the reality remains the same! Rules/Laws/policies etc are made by men, usually for and in their interests. This is just another one!
Look at a couple of really awful practices of the past. WorstChoices discriminated negatively against women, particularly if those women were on a sole parent pension. Many of these women were/are in that position because they’ve been forced to leave their home for their safety, and most importantly, the safety of their children. Unlike the women who were married to wealthy or high income earners, the women who were also mothers of children aged 8 were forced to take any job anywhere no matter what. Not having adequate child care or lack of public transport(an issue in my area) was/is not a just reason for not accepting the job - they could lose 80% of their income for 6 months?
ALEX- Imagine if those women became pregnant? Imagine how less stressful it would be, if their partner always used a contraceptive - a responsible male who practices fertile responsibility. If all men did, this discussion and the predicament of too many women would not be necessary. But, let’s not be too strident and presume, that if men refuse to be responsible, then in the event of an unplanned pregnancy, a woman might want to explore her options. How awful, if at 7 weeks gestation and shortly after, this woman decided to have a termination? Nobody wants to put the male up there to be judged by the rest of us! Possibly one of the worst examples of sexism! I know, because 47 yrs ago I was on the ‘blunt’ end of this sexist BS!
You know what makes me really angry? Men who participate in these conversations without one query as to the responsible behaviour of their own sex? I certainly left my sons in no doubt. Just because you’re capable of a sex life, doesn’t mean you don’t have a responsibility for every ‘negative’ outcome! When you get your driver’s licence, you can’t decide that you’d like to drive on the right side of the road. You’ll either kill someone(or a family) and perhaps kill yourself too!
I’d feel more at ease if I saw these attitudes put forward by men. Women get sick of the worry, and no contraception is perfect - but if both parties exercise responsibility, then this situation we’re discussing now, would not be a reality!
ALEX - stop the moralising, stop the judgemental attitude, and start blasting your own sex for their paternalistic, selfish and sexist behaviours! Women do not become pregnant on their own - unless something has changed in the last few hours??????????
Thanks Liz for the lecture - remember you yourself wrote…”stop the judgemental attitude”. As if I have some control over the timing of legislation. However, since you feel so strongly about it, why not write the lecture you would give Anna Bligh? She has heard (and spoken) much along these lines before. You think she should introduce the abortion decriminalisation legislation right now. You think that just by doing that, right now, it would overturn the age old discrimination of the paternalistic, sexist old male guard that is front and centre in Queensland and every other jurisdiction in Australia. The Premier has said (last year), now is not the time. But you Liz, want instant gratification. Fair enough - so, put it to her. Tell her how to do her job. Act like one of those bullying, earbashing, wankers who you have so eloquently described above. Personally, I think it would be a mistake during this year, but as I wrote earlier, I think it would be an excellent tactical move to set the train in motion just prior to the next Queensland state election. That way, the electorate, rather than the paternalistic, sexist…. etc, would be able to vote directly for the party that proposes the legislative change.
Choice, it’s all about choice and women should have that choice, for it is their bodies. if you don’t like abortions then don’t have one! but do not deny that right to any women. as i read a great quote one day ’ get YOUR hands off MY ovaries!
great article, cheers from a pro-choice father
Liz45, nice attack on me for being a bloke, sorry about that it was the way I was born. As regards this issue, I didn’t even mention my own opinion.
I read the article, thought the first 90% was well written then the second last paragraph was not supported by what had been presented at the start. This is not me shoving an opinion on abortion down other peoples throats - it is me criticizing the presentation of an argument.
So when you ask “How would you know?”, I know because I READ the article. If you had READ what I wrote instead of assumed what I wrote. Try reading things carefully instead of shooting from the hip.
Even if I had presented an opinion on the issue, saying that I shouldn’t have an opinion because I’m a bloke and couldn’t understand is a pretty weak argument. Perhaps men shouldn’t do obstetrics and gynaecology either on the same grounds?
Saw red when I got to the 4th paragraph…”Despite their distress, Joanne and her partner had little difficulty making the decision that the pregnancy should be terminated; they are intelligent and rational people.”
Implies that to not terminate in that situation is stupid and irrational. What an outrageous and offensive thing to imply. That is a disgraceful sentence.
And this coming from an author who is supposedly pro choice. Clearly the author believes that people in extrordinarily difficult circumstances can choose to be rational or irrational. That is an incredibly judgmental position and the author should be ashamed of it.
@Liz, these days, yes, women *can* become pregnant on their own. It’s called AI. It’s a fairly deliberate decision though. Maybe I’m a minority, but I do use condoms. And recognise that they do not offer 100% security. Last statement, is that I’m pro-choice. But I reckon that if you’re in a relationship, there are two people involved in that choice.
Ultimately, the decision and responsibility for themselves and others is the woman with the unplanned fetus in her body. Whilst my husband and I discussed all the issues involved, it was always my decision to not continue being pregnant. Allow Everywoman their Conscience on Abortion and Decriminilise the 1861 Law, made before women got the vote.
If men got pregnant that is what would happen - accessible, affordable family planning clinics throughout the land…under the protections and standards of the Health Act…
I cannot believe you people. You argue amongst yourselves over somehing that is outside your circle of influence.
You have highlighted (Hugh), the issues surrounding Bligh’s inaction, so take another tact.
Create your own movement with it’s own polices and oust these lying , cheating, self interest scum once and for all.
Not only will you acheive this imbalance, but you will rid the state/nation of all the dirty tricks that these parasites continually get away with.
You can do it!
GASMAN - I couldn’t agree more!
ALEX - I don’t think the last paragraph was out of step with the first one - they’re 2 separate cases, where a woman and her partner should be able to have access to a health program and make their own choices after they’ve learnt of the facts, and what special circumstances affect them. It really doesn’t matter what the case study is, the answer should be the same - it should be decided between a woman and her doctor, and hopefully her husband/partner. It is none of my business, and her private and personal medical condition should not have to be publicly aired. That’s the issue. Not whether Alex thinks all the ‘balls’ are lined up correctly to satisy your idea of an argument. This is about people. There’s no points to score re how the argument is written!
HUGH - Do I want “instant gratification”? Are you serious? As a very young woman raised in the catholic church, married young, pregnant, lost that baby(14 wks) had two lovely boys, tried to talk to 5 priests re contraception, got 5 different answers, finally said, ‘stuff the bloody lot of you’ and took my doctor’s advice - went on the pill, 4 yrs later decided to have another child, a boy, then had to fight for 2 yrs to have a prolapse of the bladder fixed, because the urologist was a catholic with about 8 kids. I was the grand old age of 23! What’s your life experiences as a pregnant woman in the 60’s listening to awful accounts of women’s experiences like those above. Truly, I’m nearly 65? This has gone on long enough!
A woman friend of mine, a doctor, works in a clinic where terminations are performed. Talk to her about the young woman who’ve been raped, or incest, or the women who’re covered in bruises, including bruises on their breasts and bellies! Truly! I get so fired up over this.
While Anna Bligh or whover deal with their most important issues, how many women will leave their families and travel to NSW or Victoria or???
MESKI - I applaud your sense of responsibility. As to two people being involved in any relationship - I’d hope it would be so. Sadly, all too frequently the bloke runs for his life, or he starts his abuse; many insist on a termination?? Even so, it’s the woman’s body that is pregnant, not his. The final decision should be hers, regardless!
No individual’s personal experience changes the fact that Queensland’s existing abortion legislation is out of date but more importantly, inoperative, except in those bizarre circumstances we are seeing in Cairns. The public health system in Queensland is now out of synch with its own legal foundation - teetering and unbalanced as it has been for the past 20+ years. The question is, what is the most practical political strategy for the current Queensland government to drag Health and Law back onto the same foundation? Anna Bligh says she doesn’t enjoy enough support in her own caucus. Her job as premier is partly in the hands of others (as in NSW) and the future fortunes of her government are a matter of current debate in the electorate.
Caroline de Costa is timing the running of this debate with exquisite finesse. More power to her.
Thankyou Dr.de Costa for being a torch bearer on this issue. I’ll be marching this International Women’s Day in Brisbane…solidarity,
Liz45 - the article discussed indepth the situation of a woman in Qld pregnant with a severely abnormal foetus. This is completely the focus of the article and the justification of the criticism of the Qld laws. Great line of attack, I’m completely on board with it, as I think many other people would be.
However, this doesn’t support a case for aborting healthy foetuses. Other cases can be made for this, but are not made in this article. What the article does is take a near bullet proof case which shows that the Qld laws are inadequate regarding severe foetal abnormality and then casually tries to use this to justify all other situations where abortion is an option.
This is fine if you want a bunch of sycophants all touting the same line, but that is not a debate and does not achieve anything other than a bit of gratification for the participants. If you want a meaningful debate which develops people’s thinking on an issue then arguments must be properly supported. The only reason that you are worked up about my criticism is because you agree with the unsupported argument.
BTW Liz45, I am curious. Up to what period of gestation would you support abortion, and why would you draw the line there? Or would you support the abortion of a full term foetus?
ALEX H - A more typical answer is, those like Abbott who are so against women deciding for themselves, and that there’s never ever(except in case or rape?? - not sure) didn’t speak up for the woman who was an asylum seeker from China. She was deported under the Howard govt’s inhumane and horrific policies. She was almost full term(8 months) and begged to be allowed to stay just until her child was born. This was refused. She was deported, and was forced to have a termination. Many women(mainly, but some men) including me, sent emails etc but to no avail. I don’t recall those good little christians in the federal parliament on both sides, standing up for her. The Greens and Democrats took a stand, and some, mainly women from the major parties also! Not one word from Abbott or Minchin or???Could there have been a touch of racism as well????
I’m not a medical doctor, and have not been in a position where I had to decide, so I don’t propose to dictate to other women - that’s what makes me different to others. I believe that women are quite capable, when presented with all the information to make the right decision for them. It’s none of my business or yours!This is the whole point! Women do not like the idea of abortion - they’d rather not have to be confronted with these situations, but they do happen. Since the Roman & Greek eras, women have had terminations. Aboriginal women had certain plants etc that would act as a contraception and/or termination devise!
Liz, I agree completely that a lot of the input from politicians is populist, hypocritical and unreasoned. I also believe that most women don’t like the idea of an abortion, but that sometimes the situation makes it the preferred course of action, and even so it would be an incredibly touch decision.
As you have probably worked out, I support abortion in some cases, but not in others, hence my question to you as to whether you support abortion in ALL cases eg late term and full term.
What you are strongly supporting is womens rights which is great - but you haven’t discussed whether a foetus should also have any rights and if so when would they start to have rights.
If a foetus has no rights, then there should be no ethical issue with a mother electing to have a full term abortion. However, most people in our society would cringe at the idea which suggests that even though unborn, society regards viable foetuses as human beings which means that they have rights.
Then weighing up the rights becomes the dilemma. That is why it is a messy debate. My guess is that most people would support very early term abortions where medically indicated, but would not support late term abortions of healthy foetuses. In between is a big grey zone of scenarios and the lawmakers have to work out where to draw the line in the sand.
Society will never be agreed on what appropriate laws would be. The differences in religion, culture and experience generate viewpoints across the spectrum. The best that I think we can hope for is some clear and non-emotive discussion on the issue, defining what is really being weighed up and then some lawmakers with enough spine to enact better balanced laws. Given the general nature of debate on this issue and the calibre of current lawmakers, I’m not optimistic.
ALEX H - I had a miscarriage at 14 weeks. There’s no way that foetus resembled in any way my 3 beautiful full term babies. The agony of the miscarriage went on for hours. I know of the agony of something wrong with a foetus and the grief of the loss. My 3 healthy sons have been the ‘best things I’ve ever done in my life’, and I cherished them and still do - they’re now adult men with their own children. The idea of abortion is unthinkable and awful for me, that’s why I had to give the catholic church the shove, and do what was right for me, use contraception then have a tubal ligation at a young age (and fight male doctors patronising and paternalistic negligence re my health)and stay alive to raise my children, who are now men.
The view of when an abortion is ‘too late’ is when a foetus has a good chance of surviving independent of their mother - and that is often an unknown factor. I’ve spoken to many women prior to and after an abortion, and I know that they didn’t make their decision lightly, nor did they do it as a form of contraception. It was an agonising time for them, with or without their partner/husband. As a woman, I’m very aware of the high numbers of women and girls who are victims of abuse, sexual, physical and emotional - and sometimes all of these. Some women experience physical abuse for the first time during their pregnancy - this must be a horrific experience. I also know a woman doctor who works in a clinic where terminations are carried out, and she believes through her experiences, that 20% of women she sees carry physical signs of abuse - either via rape or incest, or bruises all over them. I’ve heard midwives relate stories of pregnant women with ‘workboot footprints’ on their pregnant bellies? What sort of low life bastards would behave like that? Not conducive with feeling confident about raising a child????
I think before you try and ‘catch me out’ through some immoral attitude(like late term abortions etc) you’d be better served, letting all males you know, just exactly where you stand re violence and other attitudes to women. I have confidence in the intelligence, integrity and the individual circumstances of pregnant women, to make a decision that is pertinent to their own circumstance. I have no right to dictate terms, and nor does anyone else! I don’t think that this young couple in question should be treated like murderers or people who’ve committed manslaughter. Let’s change attitudes, so that all women who are pregnant are that way through their choice, not due to some violent act? In the event of a foetus with no hope of survival, or one that is dead or will die, the woman should not have to continue with that pregnancy - to do so is horrific!
A form of violent abuse in my view! Anathema to the hypocratic oath! Her health, both physical and mental should be of the utmost importance. We’re more than baby factories! This fact is frequently lost in this debate!
The majority of Australians believe in a woman’s right to choose, as I most definitely do!
A key reason for late-term abortion is the late discovery of serious foetal abnormalities as Dr. Costa’s article shows. For the State to increase the suffering of a woman, and having a moral judgement via criminal law on her in a vulnerable medical situation is wicked.
JULIE - Indeed. There was an article in the SMH about November of last year, where a woman who was pregnant was found to be carrying a seriously deformed foetus that had no hope of surviving after delivery - I believe from memory it either didn’t have a brain at all or a severely deformed one. Against the advice of her GP and specialist, she was forced(by the hospital?) to continue with that pregnancy for several weeks (from memory?). I found that decision horrific, and I often wonder how that woman is today. What a traumatic event made worse by unsympathetic and judgemental doctors at that hospital?
I’ve heard some pretty harrowing stories from parents of children with disabilities, some of them accusing and quite brutal? I’m always shocked and saddened by this. We can’t insist that other people continue with a pregnancy if it means that child will require intensive care for life. Already, parents in their 60’s+ are agonising over the future of their child with even a mild disability such as some children with down syndrome - too many women are left to carry the burdens alone, as the man decides he can’t cope and flees! I wouldn’t have the damned cheek to insist that a woman not seek a termination under these circumstances - I don’t have that right!