Kevin and Mary: a match made in Heaven
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So yesterday the Prime Minister went to church at the Mary MacKillop Memorial Chapel in North Sydney. Rudd is an Anglican, although he was raised a Catholic. So questions were asked. “He attended a service, the Prime Minister attends church regularly on Sundays and he was in Sydney this morning,” his office told AAP. As happens, of course. Maybe they had a time he found convenient. Like when my mum visits me in Canberra, sorting out the church times can be a hassle. But on the basis that Rudd never does anything without reason, it was only natural of the media to connect his trip to North Sydney, where the desiccated remains of a 19th century nun are kept, with his trip to the Vatican earlier this year where he met the Pope and discussed MacKillop’s progress toward canonisation. Back then, Tony Abbott criticised Rudd for attempting to “lobby” the Vatican about MacKillop. The meme being peddled by Abbott — and not entirely inaccurately, it has to be said — is that Rudd is so obsessed with spin that he thinks it extends to even the holiest rituals of the Mother Church. At the time I was inclined to agree with Abbott, albeit primarily from the perspective of the indignity of Australia’s elected leader paying any sort of homage to the head of one of the world’s most corrupt and damaging corporations, especially over its own absurd superstitions. What I was foolishly thinking, however, was that the men who run the Catholic Church might actually believe in that nonsense about miracles performed by long-dead people. Pope John Paul II, being a canny politician, had realised the true worth of canonisation as a marketing device for the Church, so in 1983 he stripped out any rigour from the process, including the famous “Devil’s Advocate” role, and reduced the number of “miracles” needed for canonisation from three to two. The result was a saintly sausage factory, with John Paul II churning them out in their hundreds, particularly as promotions for papal visits overseas, or to reinforce conservative forces within the Church, such as the 2002 canonisation of Spanish fascist Josemaría Escrivá, founder of Opus Dei, and the beatification of ultra-reactionary and fraud Agnesë “Mother Teresa” Bojaxhiu. Given the entire notion of sainthood was an ancient necessity to co-opt and regulate the local rituals and traditions of the cults and creeds Christianity had wiped out, John Paul II’s efforts were simply of a piece with the great traditions of the Church. The promotion of Mary MacKillop’s “sainthood” is therefore a very smart piece of marketing by the local Catholic Church and its international masters. It appeals to that lurking cultural cringe in the Australian mindset that the surging nationalism and swagger of recent decades has not quite killed off the pleasure to be gained from international recognition, no matter how dubious. Australians still love it when the rest of the world acknowledges us. MacKillop’s role as Australia’s first promotee into the ranks of Catholic saints is the sort of Little Aussie Battler journey that we all love to celebrate. Hell, our brewers might even bring back those “They Said You’d Never Make It” ads to promote a celebratory MacKillop Bitter* when her sainthood is declared. And no, don’t laugh — there’s already been a flower, a dollar coin and a musical. The merchandising possibilities are huge. Rudd wants to be part of it. For one thing, the ALP is the traditional home of Catholicism in Australian politics, and despite the rise and rise of Catholic reactionaries such as Abbott, Kevin Andrews and Barnaby Joyce in the coalition, there are still factionally strong Catholic interests in the right wing of the ALP. Just ask former South Australian senator Linda Kirk, who was removed and replaced by Catholic right-wing powerbroker Don Farrell for voting in favour of stem cell research (the same faction from which Michael Atkinson, Australia’s most savagely censorious Attorney-General, hails from). Rudd, as many including Abbott have pointed out, is also not above using religion for political purposes, with his happy Sunday morning ritual of taking question outside St John’s Anglican Church in the Canberra suburb of Reid. That doubtless reinforces Rudd’s deliberate image as a boring but safe leader, especially as St John’s is an old, leafy and traditional church made of sandstone, not one of those modern Entertainment Centre-style places that might denote happy-clappy enthusiasm and an obsession with money. Rudd isn’t unusual in exploiting religion for political purposes. Like other politicians, including John Howard and Peter Costello, he is happy to address gatherings of major religious groups. Indeed, it has really only been Mark Latham of recent major politicians who had the conviction to avoid mixing with many of the religious fundamentalists that try to influence public policy in Australia. But MacKillop is different. Rudd wants to be close to the MacKillop action for the same reason that he supports an Australian bid for the soccer World Cup, and the same reason John Howard and Morris Iemma so enthusiastically supported a bid the 2008 World Youth Day (another prime piece of Catholic marketing), the same reason generations of politicians have excitedly signed us up for major events. It’s all about the feel-good buzz, the delight of victory when some old European male (the Olympics, FIFA and the Catholic Church are all run by similar corrupt cliques of European men) stands up to declare us the winner. And even better, MacKillop doesn’t come with the huge economic cost of major events, which require new stadia, better infrastructure and compensation for the rival sports/faiths that have to be suppressed while the event is conducted, for fear of anything upsetting the control-obsessed organisers. Many years ago, when I taught early modern history to bored first-year university students, I’d always make the point that if 17th-century Europe looked like a society heavily influenced by religion, it was also the case that 17th-century religion was heavily influenced by the highly secular concerns of the world in which it operated. Of course, not much has changed since then when it comes to Catholicism. That’s why Kevin Rudd is positioning himself close to Mark McKillop. And if it upsets former seminarian Tony Abbott, then that’s just fine, too. * Please — enjoy alcohol in moderation |
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123 Comments
Good stuff Bernard.
Its hard to believe in this ‘day and age’ that miracles are still considered real !!!!!!
But sadly, there is no end to the cynicism of politicians, whatever their pursuasion, who will jump aboard any bandwagon that makes them look good and enable them to bask in the reflected glow. (apologies for mixing metaphors)
The process of the impending canonisation of Mary MacKillop is a sad reflection on the credibility of people in general and the credulity of religious followers that so-called miracles, whatever their causation, can be attributed to a long dead person intervening in temporal affairs of behalf of an even more distant God. Why does this God need an intermediary? Even more ridiculous is why this particular brand of God need to be associated with a particular religious institution. Methinks it is all about marketing. If you can convince the flock that one of their past members is interceding on their behalf, then this is a powerful motivational tool for people to remain committed, especially with their hands in their pockets to continue to fund the priesthood in the manner to which they have become accustomed. I suspect it has always been thus. Priesthoods exploiting the credible and gullible for their own benefit. Now that we have the Internet and e-mail, it should be appropriate for me to communicate directly with God and get a reply. Info@god.org would be a good e-mail address. Perhaps the Church could identify a potential “saint” to facilitate such a process. Now that would be a real miracle as would Rudd showing some humility.
Why does Crikey get someone to report on religion who is so blinded by prejudice and hate? According to Keane Mother Teresa was an “ultra-reactionary and fraud.” Not even an attempt at rational argument, let alone providing any evidence, just throwing out insults. If the accusation was so evident then why is it she was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize?
It is also not true that canonization is just a “sausage factory.” The process is still quite difficult, but maybe Keane is just too blinded by prejudice to appreciate this.
Some people do actually believe in God and to reduce the Catholic Church to a purely cynical operation in power reveals a very superficial and inadequate approach. Nobody is asking Keane to be a believer, but at least Crikey could offer us a report that comes to grips with the subject matter instead of just a vituperative tirade.
The first requirement of any good Australian PM is to go to Church which puts them in good standing with the Godbotherers but they must make sure they don’t really believe because that makes it OK with the Godsmotherers.
The Hypocrite haters - well, there just isn’t anyone for them!
The cynics undoubtedly have a point when it comes to Kevin Rudd and Mary McKillop. But they do themselves no favours with over-the-top sideswipes like characterising the Catholic Church as ‘one of the world’s most corrupt and damaging corporations’. Such disregard for innumerable works of charity and education through the centuries is way beyond ‘wrong’, and well into ‘malicious’ territory. Possibly even ‘evil’.
SusieQ, while we’re mixing metaphors, can you tell me what it is about this day and age that invalidates miracles?
And no, I’m not a Catholic.
John, re the ‘fraud’. The Nobel Peace Prize was in 1979. Accepting money from a fraudulent collapsed company director occurred in 1989.
John Flynn, I’ve been pretty vocal against religion-bashing in Crikey, but I think this one is fair comment from Bernard. There’s no criticism of Christianity here, just of some of the gimmicks that the church uses to get by. It’s true that many of the early saints are repackaged pagan gods. We could see this in a cynical light, or give the early church credit for being rather more inclusive and tolerant than it later became.
The main point is Kean’s wry acknowledgement that Rudd may have more in common with, and a better understanding of, the Vatican’s marketing team than Keane previously gave him credit for.
And there’s the worry. Assuming the Robed Ones are familiar with realpolitik, the fact that Kevin shows such an interest in this matter means they will now demand some kind of concession, in return for a beautification they probably would have done anyway.
The Catholic Church has lots of people that do good works, and I’ll admit, things that I couldn’t do -unfortunately, like so many organisations, their Head Office often lets them down (shall we start on their attitude to child abuse???) - like every other organisation they have their brand to protect.
Well, Mark, I simply cannot believe that a dead person can make a very sick person well again - because that is what we are expected to believe in these cases - how can anyone believe this? I’m sorry, it just seems so implausible to me.
“…the beatification of ultra-reactionary and fraud Agnesë “Mother Teresa” Bojaxhiu…”
Another piss-poor attempt at dog-whistling sarcasm…or the execrable hatred of a pompous atheist?
Hmmm, whichever shall I choose?
Dear James: I would be interested in seeing some examples of what you say when you argue that “many of the early saints are repackaged pagan gods.” Are you arguing that the apostles, the early martyrs, etc., were pagan gods? This seems pretty hard to maintain.
Dear Evan: Accepting money from someone who may have done something illegal does not make you a “fraud.” The person who was corrupt or engaged in illegal activity is the fraud. If they make a donation to a good cause the recipient is not culpable. You would have to establish that the recipient was fully aware of the illegal actions and knew that the funds being donated was the fruit of illegal or fraudulent activity to even begin to have a case.
SusieQ, of course it’s fine, reasonable and rational, for you to disbelieve. Miracles are implausible by definition. My point was that knowing more about how the natural physical world operates (presumably what you’re alluding to with ‘this day and age’) does not in itself negate the possibility of events occurring outside that framework.
And of course, by the lights of the church, it’s mischaracterising the situation to say it’s a ‘dead person’ making the sick well, in that 1) they’re not truly dead and 2) it’s not them that actually does the healing.
John, I don’t really give a crap either way, but the reading I’ve done into the topic this afternoon suggests that MT knew the money was fraudulently obtained, and that she was specifically asked to return it.
I am totally discussed at this article
It is plain to see that Mr. kean you have no idea what you are talking about.
it has nothing to do with politics or the way the church advertises etc.
when i was girl growing up in a catholic church we where very very proud of the people that established the church here in Australia. We grew to love the saints that the nuns taught us about. Catholics don’t pray to saints as some people say we actually ask for intervention.
If you are not a Christian of do not understand the catholic faith then you don’t understand the connection. It gives us a lot of hope to have some one to turn to in the spiritual world.
The grounding that we got from the nuns and brothers was something that has taken me and my mum and dad their family and all my children through life. We turn to God through his saints
you could call them helpers if you like.
Now to Mary she established most of the early catholic school through aust from S.A through to the North of the country. And guess what she went on horse back she also had Rheumatoid Arthritis. She looked after the prostitutes of the time and visited people in jail and the sick.
O and she was excommunicated because she would not toe the line with the bishops.And after many years was taken back in to the church. As its a long story i am not sure of all the details but if you goggle Mary mckillop you will find it Or Mr. Keane may suggest you visit the Nuns at Mary Mckillop center in North Sydney you may be surprised what you learn.And also you may gain some comfort there.
Now to Mr. Rudd, i think journalists should all give their jobs up for a least 2 years or more and get in to the real world. You are such a cynical lot. Mr. Rudd does not do everything for a reason. Guess what if i was he that would also be my last port of call before it went to
Copenhagen. We all need strength from time to time this is probably where he find some peace for a little time to reflect.
Why don’t you ask the many people here who talk about Mary McKillop and there prayers answered, i know of some that where in the media but i cannot say of course because that is up to them .But just try to learn a bit about Mary and ring the nuns.
I am absolutely appauled at your article.
Also in my opinion Mr. rudd is the best p.m. this country has ever had,
God help us and if got the alternative
Why do the media continue to rubbish him. Tell me that.You really dont write for the majority of australians when you consider the polls if we want to read things that are negative about him well we know what we would read. Crickey yes give critic when you have to but give the man some praise sometimes for his abilities. is there one amoung you who could go to Copenhagen and do his job. I doubt any of us could he probably has the hardest and the biggest job in the country And if he prayer to Mary mckillop you should be pleased.
I pray to her every day of my life for something it may be Copenhen or one of my children or it may be all of my children friends but every day i think of her.
I’ll believe in miracles when Fremantle win a grand final, and it rains beer and meat pies on the day. In other words, Australia needs a saint like it needs … (fill in your own blank)
A miracle is purely that - something so extraordinary that it’s happening cannot be attributed to anything that is of the natural order.
Why get uptight that today only two miracles are required before the Catholic Church is prepared to assert that a particular individual is definitely in Heaven?
Given what a miracle is, it is a poor mind that quibbles with three becoming two - each one of any of these has to be extraordinary.
Mother Teresa a fraud? I suspect you are letting your anti-Catholic prejudices loose upon your readers.
Why so anti-Catholic?
Typically people who lash out like you Bernard are shriveling still from difficulties with the Church’s stipulations relating to marriage, sex and personal behaviour. Not always, just very often!
SUSIE Q
Difficult to believe the stuff of the saints?
Well, if Christ be not risen from the dead, then the whole is in vain.
Jesus was crucified.
He died on the cross.
He came back to life three days later.
His followers truly can move mountains.
Another thinh i would like to say.
is that many many people have been in at some time a Catholic Hospital
which would of been started by good nuns from ex Ireland. The Schools that have turned out amazing people. One school i am connected with in a small city has had 11 th students go through all boys i may add who have become judges premiers doctors, scientist etc.
Well you may say well that happens at all school and of course you are correct.
But with out the nuns and brothers many years ago 3.g. 1800 and early 1900 these people would not of been educated at all. I think its time for a little reflection don’t you.
also the catholic hospitals are still there aren’t they and how many of you have been looked after in one or born there. think about it as we are now approaching Christmas
Also with the Christ child being born there would be no CHRISTMAS. may i suggest that those who are non believers keep working dint exchange presents etc.
You are willing to take on the Christian holidays when it suits but not to believe in the reason you are.
See what I mean, Bernard? Instead of focusing on your main point (the cynicism of Rudd), everyone is fixed on your gratuitous smearing of the Catholic Church.
Anyone would think this was deliberate distraction by someone who has actually been a Rudd supporter all along…oh.
Martin, you believe it, I don’t - OK? We’re all entitled to our beliefs. By the way, is that a metaphorical mountain or a real one? (sorry, I had to ask!)
My Say - no one is disputing what Mary McKillop did in her lifetime and all the struggles she had - but this article is about Rudd jumping on the Mary bandwagon and exploiting it for his own purposes - surely something we should all be unhappy about?.
JOHN FLYNN: Would you kindly inform me as to whereabouts BernardK was incorrect with his assertions?
It never ceases to amaze me how the Catholics such as yourself react to a few home truths by flying out of the starting stalls accusing the author/s as being hate-filled liars. Two thousand years of the Catholic Church’s atrocities, deceits, kangaroo court style justice, inquisitions, bloody reprisals, savage behaviour, sick jokes such as Lourdes, child-raping priests, botting off the taxpayers of Oz and any other country who will allow vast sums of money to support all religions, of which Catholicism is by far the most blatant example.
Two thousand years of brain-washing the mentally challenged into believing a two and a half thousand year old book holds all the answers in the year 2009.
There is not one single corruption unknown to the Catholic Church. Amongst the worst examples being year after year after year of Priests with a fondness for the
bums of little boys, and little girls, to a lesser extent. The refusal by the Church to do anything about this wicked scandal. If a priest became too hot, rather than disciplining the fiend, the fiend would, in fact, be moved to a more remote part of the world where the pickings were much greater.
Throughout her history the Church has showed her fondness for rewarding the cheap, the tawdry and the rotten. Think of Pope Pius XII showered with accolades; Princess of the Church and international self-interest groups and just your ordinary gullible church-goer demanding sainthood for him. (The Church tried to hush it all up) Conveniently ignoring the fact the man was in league with Hitler and Mussolini. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Jews that were slaughtered on the Papal alter.
If the Catholic church is all so wholesome and wonderful, pray tell why, on the issue of child molestation one of your Popes has never issued a fatwa allowing Catholic priests to get married? It would decimate the numbers of sick old men who abuse little children.
A Catholic Church which has virtually condemned women from having any position in the Church higher than the females attendants at Opus Dei, and similar bodies as virtual slave labour.
As for Mother Theresa, beavering away in the slums of India, was vehemently opposed to birth control. If that didn’t make her a fraud I don’t know what does.
And now, in their never-ceasing efforts to get more adherents to the Church, they seize a moon-faced country girl from Oz. She may have been a worthy lass. But seldom has the cheapness of of sainthood has been so re-revealed in all it’s decadent infamy and its Public Relations razzamatazz. A miracle or two will fix her up for the job.
All that has to happen for one miracle to be attested to is for the wretched woman to have spoken to someone who had cancer, and that the same person enters into a remission. The person who spoke to him/her is declared a miracle. Pity about the surgeons whose skill and lifetimes of hard work produce true miracles.
As for Kevin Rudd, and all the Catholics which permeate our political parties, they make me vomit.
Ditto the lay Catholics who get ‘revolted’ by people who tell it like it is. Bernard Keane you are a naughty man. And I am about to thrash you with a feather.
Rubbish susie Mr. Rudd is just doing what christian do.
If you where not reared that way you would not understand.
If Mary MacKillop could achieve agreement amongst the nations at the Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen she would have my vote. Now that would really be a miracle worthy of sainthood!
The Pope.
I hope you all have had an education re Mary i bet most of your would not even bother reading about her life.
I can tell you if there is a ceremony in Sydney i will be among the first to book my seat on the plane,
I don’t always go to mass every Sunday but i am very proud of my beginnings in this life and that my parents gave me the gift of Christianity it would not have mattered what church but to have a
spiritual life and and out look gives us peace of mind i actually feel very sorry for those that dont they dont understand the peace and contentment with life they would have.
Yes there are lots of things that Christians have done through the ages that are not good.
But the grass rootes people the nuns that where and are in the hospitals the social workers who still visit jails the poor etc. Imagine the country with out the Salvation army the City Mission the St,.Vincent de Paul. and all the other wonderful organizations that take care of the needy and sick and expecially at christmas.
You are a very lucky person in deed if you have not had to call on one of these services in your life time. Well i will leave it there and pray that none of you have a great
need to call on the saints to intervene for you. We in the Christian faith believed that our spiritual soul goes to heaven, it has nothing to do with the corpse in the ground.
But i am just an ordinary person not a theologian who happened by chance to stumbled on this site to day. having just recovered from surgery in a catholic hospital by the way.
The fact that individual Catholics and some of their institutions (eg schools and hospitals) have done good things, in no way implies that the Catholic Church as a whole is completely without blame. I have met many wonderful Catholics, doing wonderful, voluntary things. However, this in no way diminishes the imperssion I get that the Catholic Church is the most hypocritical and corrupt body I can think of.
Care for the poor? Have you seen the Vatican?
Love your brother? Not if he’s gay.
Bernard’s article rightly raises the prospect that Rudd, ever the populist, is trying to jump on the McKillop bandwagon. Everything this politician does is political. Ask not what your politician is doing, but why.
JB - Climate change (like everything else including child sex abuse and letting millions die of hunger and disease) is God’s will. That the single richest corporation on the planet condones this while it’s more senior officers sip $400 bottles of wine with their dinner and are not held in any way accountable for their own actions or the actions of their lesser officers and are still held in sugh high esteem ….. now there is a bloody miracle.
“… Instead of focusing on your main point (the cynicism of Rudd), everyone is fixed on your gratuitous smearing of the Catholic Church…”
Rubbish.
Bernard’s entire ‘argument’ is misguided and poorly constructed.
The inclusion of the reference to Mother Teresa was designed to be deliberately inflammatory and throughly unnecessary to the discussion.
The fact that Rudd has (and will) use his faith for opportunistic gain, politically or otherwise, is hardly revealing new information.
Thank you Evan - someone else can see this article and Rudd’s actions for what they are.
My Way - not sure why I’m bothering but anyway- for your information, I was sent to Sunday School and Church by my parents, so please stop casting aspersions on my upbringing!
Please read Evan’s comments above with which I wholeheartedly agree.
“…I get that the Catholic Church is the most hypocritical and corrupt body I can think of…”
Sorry Evan, the United Nations wins that title by a country mile.
Bashing each others religion is SOOOOO BORING…particularly when everyone knows those brave souls in the meeja only attack the low hanging fruit of the Christian faiths.
And now let’s play ‘Word Substitution‘…
I’ll sub ‘Catholic’ for ‘Islam’ for ten points please Bert …
Care for the poor? Have you seen Mecca?
Love your brother? Not if he’s gay.
See how easy that is, Evan?
John Flynn, no but not all of the early saints were apostles and other historical figures. I can’t recall the authorities on the saints/pagan deities off the top of my head, but it was a Jesuit-educated Catholic scholar who introduced me to the written material on it years ago, all deriving from within the Church intellectual community, in the broader context of Catholic absorbtion of various pagan traditions, solar festivals (look up the origin of the Easter Bunny some time), and yes, some deities. Notably Irish ones. It’s not even particularly controversial within the Church, except for a few historical absolutists. It just means the Church didn’t always follow a Year Zero strategy of cultural conquest but was, in its early years, prepared to let people have some wiggle room as long as they put God above all others and understood the main points such as loving your neighbor, forgiveness and eternal life.
Dear Evan & SusieQ,
The Catholic Church is “the most hypocritical and corrupt body” either of you can think of? That says a lot about your limited thought processes! Without too much effort, the Chinese Communist Party comes easily to mind as a prime contender. Large numbers of governments and government agencies would fill up the league table after the Beijing Butchers, as would many media companies.
As for the unspeakable Mr Rudd - it’s hardly the Church’s fault that he boasts about having left the Catholic Church, but scurries back into church when he thinks there’s a vote in it. I just hope that he at least didn’t have the cheek to try to join the comunion queue!
“Your comment is awaiting moderation” Yackerty yak.
Religion is for the simple person who is to lazy to think things through.
Chalk it up MPM, I agree with you.
Bullshit, Planet Earth. We’re all too lazy to think every single thing through, and a good thing too, otherwise there would be no culture, no tradition, and we would too busy inventing the wheel to even get started on things like a legal system.
We live in the world of false prophets.
In our world, one does not have to be a peace lover to get a Nobel Prize for Peace.
One does not have to be saint to be canonised. I do agree, Mother Teresa should never be canonised. Neither should Mary McKillop. But the Vatican is a baby in comparison to Al Gore industry. And I am brought up as Catholic.
What was it about Saddam Hussein, his WMD and his famous, sped up ‘process’?
Is it true that Tiger Wood has been a role model for our kids? Like Britney?
I think we live in the world of false prophets.
And as for Rudd? He is an Australian politician. And Mary McKillop, like her or not, was and is famous Australian. Howard preferred Bradman.
JOHN FROMPLANET EARTH
People are entitled to believe or otherwise. There are sage and silly, simple or sophisticated on either side. Religion or lack of it does not produce geniuses.
I believe we discuss issues here, not personalities. And the issue is the role of a politician and his interaction with people of different creeds and denominations. And I am not sure you thought your message through.
What is so interesting here is not Bernard Keane’s disgusting condescension because we hear that almost on a daily basis but more the emotional virulence of his resentment against the Roman Catholic Church which we only hear perhaps on a weekly basis.
Given his name, his heritage is almost certainly Irish Roman Catholic and also we might infer his education. The extraordinary achievements of this education were the high proportion of people from poorer backgrounds with ability who were rigorously prepared to advance to tertiary level education in democracies that financially supported university education. Yet another of the unacknowledged good this Church does for the communities it serves. Sometimes, the means to that end were harsh and unforgiving.
Add to that the self-righteous indignation of the typical extreme leftist liberal progressive who love to wear their condescending morality on their self-serving sleeves and you have a viciousness that says more about the writer than the target of their vitriol.
This article is supposedly about Rudd’s well recognized self-serving religiosity but is it?
It certainly gives Bernard Keane another opportunity to vent his spleen and simultaneously insult with neither rhyme nor cool reason 40% of his fellow Australians.
But that’s okay. He has the benefit of an university education and apparently is now sanctimoniously justified in irrationally insulting his fellow Australians.
Bravo Bernard.
My intent is not to bash religion, but to bash the controlling institution; my apologies if the subtlety of this position was not obvious.
The Catholic church, which is the only church teaching I know anything about, is based on some fundamentally good ethics. Treat others as you want to be treated, turn the other cheek. But the application of these ethics and the ramifications of their interpretations has been perverted for a long time by people looking for ways of controlling the masses. Sure, the Chinese Democratic Party have done some damage recently, but they’ve only been around 50? 100? years at most. The Catholic church has been interfering in people’s lives for their own benefit for 6 or 700 years. In that time they’ve killed people, suppressed science, oppressed others, told people how to have sex, told other people what to believe and generally been a nuisance, and worse, completely betrayed their founding beliefs.
I raise the Vatican because of what I see is part of the central hypocrisy of the current Church. Jesus’ overriding message is one of compassion for those less fortunate. The Pope and associated dignitaries live in incredible splendour while many of their followers live in appalling poverty. I don’t think it would sell their values short to redistribute some of this wealth to those who maintain their positions of privelidge.
MPM, you reckon the UN is obviously the worst ever? I’d be very interested to know why. Everyone else just seems to be shouting what ever comes into their mind.
Good ethics? Like “Kill them all, God will know His own,” - Pope Innocent III
Evan,
You really are a dope!
Despite your claims to the contrary, you clearly know very little about the teachings of the Catholic Church - or even its history (the Catholic Church has been around for “6 or 700 years” ?!?!?!?).
And what is this incredible wealth that the Church has lying around to redistribute? If you’re referring to the artworks in the Vatican, your logic would suggest that every government around the world should sell off the artworks in their galleries for social programs (how many pink batts and solar panels would the sale of Blue Poles fund?). Apart from the artworks, the Church isn’t particularly wealthy - or do you really think that the Pope beds down in the Sistine Chapel every night?
By the way, thanks for the tip about “Jesus’ overriding message”. Any chance you could give us your one-line summarie of Marxism, Islam and The Poverty of Historicism while you’re at it?
MPM, as EB I’m perplexed as to why you might think the UN is worse than the Catholic church? Sure the UN is pretty much a complete waste of time and agonisingly can take 3 weeks to agree to a strongly worded memo to despots committing genocide, but as EB points out, the Catholic church has totally betrayed anything and everything it ever stood for. At least the UN occasionally examines that which it should have done/should not have done and seeks to change. The Catholic church seemingly only ever even admits to its shortcomings when any possibility of posting Father Fiddler to another parish is untenable and has its metaphorical pants round its ankles?
Stiofan - Evan is a dope?? For pity sake you hapless sop, just how long do you claim the Catholic church to have existed (as we might recognise it)?
On the wealth thing land, property and cash at bank of the eveil empire dwarfs countries GDP you dopey twonk. “artworks in the vatican” I seriously hope you are taking the piss. If however you are serious, for anyone’s god’s sake open your eyes man.
Stiofan (5.08pm)
“And what is this incredible wealth that the Church has lying around to redistribute?”, you ask.
Well I wouldn’t mind a shot at their real estate for starters. 2000 years of capturing the highest hills in the most populated areas of the world has got to be worth a few bob.
And don’t say it couldn’t be done to compensate some of the people that the Church has wronged and covered up.
In the 1830’s Juan Mendizabal took all church property in Barcelona into public hands and put the whole lot up for auction. 80% of the lands of churches and monastries were sold and most of the buildings demolished to make way for new developments. Now that is some seriously useful economic rationalism!
MOST PECULIAR …As usual you omit the most obvious difference between Islam and Catholicism.
Yes, the Prophet, in the Qu’ran, urged the faithful to go forth and convert the non-believers. Not always with the most felicitous results.
Whereas the Catholic Church just takes children at a very young age, brain-washes them, hood-winks the mentally infirm with lies, does not dis-encourage the dirty old men who molest children. Which would be easily fixed if the Pope issued a fatwa allowing priests to get married.
It’s most unforgivable trait is to encourage their -preferably Jesuit trained, trouble-makers. But even the less highly trained among them, to embroil themselves in politics, into positions where they can deny to the public whose religions/beliefs are at variance with the Holy Roman Church the benefits of the 21st century progress. Two examples, Kevin Andrews who has as his life’s mission to prohibit euthanasia. And Tony Abbott given the vital job as minister for health in the fair-minded and halcyon days of the John Howard government. (irony)In this portfolio Abbott had unfettered access to prevent anti-abortificants such as RU486 coming onto the market.
Then there is Barnaby Joyce a rabid Catholic who would dearly love to overturn the no fault divorce laws. The same man would would not allow women, even those raped by their brothers, fathers, uncles and cousins to have an abortion.
The interesting thing about Barnaby Joyce is his lack of qualifications in finance, and that it has been unheard of, in the past, to allow The National Party/Country Party a seat in the Liberal Party. In fact, the only qualification he does have-if you are Tony Abbott-is Barnaby Joyce’s Catholicism.
STIOFAN: I wish to congratulate you. You have grasped what so many of your faith fail to grasp. Namely that all forms of totalitarianism are, in fact, another form of religion. Take the dreadful régime in North Korea. Kim Jong-Il and his father Kim Il Sung were/are figures of devotion, worship, heroism, the ultimate seekers of truth, their writings are as revered as we revere Shakespeare.
MY SAY: When you so vehemently tell everyone how awful we all are to avail ourselves to the benefits of going to a Catholic hospital. You oh so casually forgot to mention that anyone promoting even the shonkiest pretence of a religion gets, automatically, huge taxpayer funded support. Nor do you mention that the best ones, such as Cabrini in Malvern-a very first class hospital indeed. Charges a lot of money-which I am all in favour of. And yes I am happy to give them money throughout the year, on the basis that a fine institution deserves some help.
No matter how much good the Catholics do it is off-set by the inestimable harm done by the same curch, over two thousand years.
Re. the gutting of canonisation - this appears to have coincided with the push to canonise Escriva, who wouldn’t have had a hope in hell (he he) under the old arrangements, at the behest of Opus Dei, who really run the Church these days. A nasty bunch… It’s a long way from the Church of Paul VI. Without the Devil’s Advocate the process has no inbuilt checks and balances and it has become totally debauched.
Martin Shanahan - ” Typically people who lash out like you Bernard are shriveling still from difficulties with the Church’s stipulations relating to marriage, sex and personal behaviour. Not always, just very often!” Add me to the list. The spectacle of the world’s largest pedophile ring, which doesn’t allow married priests (unless it can poach them from another Christian denomination), thinking it has unique and absolute insight into human sexuality is breathtakingly hypocritical and grotesque. Being able to control her fertility is a fundamental health right of women, which this supremely misogynist, control-freak organisation refuses to recognise. The Vatican’s attempts to appear eco-friendly are also only lip service without recognising our responsibility to limit the growth in our own numbers beyond the carrying capacity of the planet. There are plenty of Islamic organsitions and the extremes of Protestantism which are even crazier and nastier, but none have the power or wealth or numbers or influence of this disgusting racket.
“Well, if Christ be not risen from the dead, then the whole is in vain.”
Yep, it’s in vain. Show me one iota of proof of this incident!
Religion and state should be seperate, full stop. Some of the tripe on this page is an example why. National leadership should be based on reason, nothing else. God botherers can do what they like as long as it has nothing to do with politics and they don’t force themselves onto my life.
JamesK, you make some real assumptions, just from a name. If Bernard’s family has been here a few generations, none of that pious crap about “Irish Roman Catholic” holds true.
I should stop arguing now. Arguing religion with believers is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Most Pec.Mama: I think you’d better read up on “Mother Theresa”…
TOM
Perhaps, for a change, let’s discuss noble intentions of a Head of Church Henry VIII and his followers? Why single out Catholic Church?
and re: The United Nations and the WHO - the epicentre of corruption.. Except for Korean war, the UN have never really succeeded in solving any of the world’s conflicts. Try to read the United Nations Charter and then we can get back to comparing the UN and the Vatican. White elephants and toothless tigers come to mind.
I suspect that in your reply to Stiofan you were talking about Mr. Madoff, weren’t you?
So by the same argument, anyone who does charity work but lives in a mansion or keeps long-term investments is a hypocrite.
The church has got some very black episodes in its history (but not as continuously or unremittingly so as some historians would have you believe), and these resulted chiefly from having too much power. Through much of the dark and mediaval ages ambitious men saw the church hierarchy as the best vehicle for their ambitions, and even a lot of ordinary men saw it as secure employment.
THIRDBORN314 - exactly. Give that man a cigar. This corruption went into slow and lasting decline from the time church began to be separated from secular states. You could say the rise of republicanism has done the church as much good as the states, perhaps more so. The scope for that sort of power just isn’t there any more, and most parish priests live even more poorly than a kitchenhand, so the priesthood attracts a very different crowd nowadays. (Those who sees the whole world in black and white will probably say something very predictable at this last point. Give it a rest for a change, hey?)
JAMESK: Ah for the joys of a Catholic education system. Faint, faint, swoon. My grandmothers smelling-salts please. I imagine you are not referring to the ‘Catholic universities’. Rather to the schooling received during one’s formative years?
I’m sure the education itself-ie without the religious instruction-is first class. However, there is one nasty bit of fallout which goes with this advanced education. I refer, of course, to the abomination of the letter ‘h’ written as ‘aitch’ But butchered, by the Catholics into ‘haitch’. I’m told Oz is the only English speaking nation on earth to pronounce ‘aitch’ as ‘haitch’.
With your superior knowledge perhaps you could explain the evolution of this piece of barbarity?
@ Meski
Talking of making assumptions! Insight is not your strong suit is it?
So what part of my core allegation that Bernard is just yet another arrogant leftist progressive elitist who with apparent irrational emotional-based viciousness attacks the Catholic Church at every opportunity even when it is incidental to the topic at hand do you so coolly and rationally disagree with?
Mmmmmm, MacKillop Bitter. Aaarrrgghh. Made with hops picked from 2000 year old vines, fermented in holy water sourced from Lourdes. A bready palate reminiscent of wafers and a hint of transubstantiated wine. Blessed, by George! Free pass to heaven with every carton. Made by master brewers at Rudd Breweries. It’s a f*cking miracle!
@Venise
In answer to your first question: Yes
In answer to your second: No and not just for the obvious reason.
We also say: Tchew(2) fur(for) twennythchew(22)
I can’t explain that piece of ‘barbarity’ eeder/iider?
I haven’t seen so many rabid religious dupes come out of the woodwork since … the last time the Sainted GR mentioned Israel. No matter what the brand/creed/delusion/bigotry ALL religion is dangerous, QED.
51 comments already! Bernard, it could have been a shorter tome if you just said politics and religion DO mix!
AR - “No matter what the brand/creed/delusion/bigotry ALL religion is dangerous, QED.”
Except for evangelistic antitheism of course. It’s perfectly benign, as Pol Pot and Kruschev demonstrated.
Stiofan, you haven’t offered one point to counter my opinion and called me a dope. Is this how you try to convince people of your opinion normally?
JimMcD - “evangelistic antitheism”” is bit of a contradiction in terms (but why would that register with a god botherer?).
EVANGEL means “from/of angels” (Shorter Oxford, but also common sense - again not a strong point of the religious) which seems an odd thing to try to0 tag to a non bliever sky-fairies..
The essential/systemic point is that religious say “We know the truth, everyone else is deluded/wrong/evil/must be obliterated”.
If they’d just stop hassling others, INCLUDING children, then they could be safely ignored but, like drunk drivers and larcenic junkies, when they impinge on sane people then “We have a problem Houston”.
How did the thread of this article get so lost? Whatever you think about religion or politics it’s hard to deny the Mary MacKillop Sainthood Stakes won’t ply benefits for both Rudd and the Church. And if Kevin can organise another Papal visit to seal the deal no doubt it’ll lift spirits particularly on federal Opposition benches where commitment to the Church is at an all time high.
Costello had his fingers burnt trying to play Catch the Fire, Captain Catholic dialed a priest before miraculously winning the leadership spill and Chris Pyne lamented in 2005 that “in the US you don’t get elected if you don’t talk about God, here you don’t get elected if you do’!
Well now, Mary MacKillop’s beatification might just be what Kev, Tone and Chris are looking for if it winds back a bit of me-too’ism and sets religion as the centrepiece of political populism. Isn’t that what they’ve all been praying for.
AR, yes it is kind of strange. But ever since you said you were an “antitheist” (a new word for me) I’ve come to admire the heroically hopeless quest it must be. It implies you believe in god but want to defeat him. And the only way I can see to do that is by proving he doesn’t exist - which would mean that you’ve been wasting your time all along.
jimMcdimwit - only a fool tries to prove a negative. If you’re able, try a bit of basic etymology (nothing to do with butterflies). A “theist’ is someone who proclaims an allegiance to sky fairies.
Hence, an anti - are you still hanging on by your gnawed, mental fingernails..? - is someone opposed to godf botherers. End of discussion.
ChrisJ - well pointed out. Is there no way to stop the James’ trolling - no way are the various tags different people - they have less diversity than a Borg.
In which case, the difference between an atheist and what you call an antitheist is that one simply doesn’t believe, while the other insists on everyone else not believing. Sounds to me a bit like “We know the truth, everyone else is deluded/wrong/evil/must be obliterated”. Or am I missing something here? And when are you going to explain in what way Pol Pot and Kruschev were not true members of your creed?
Gee Bernard - you got things started today.
I disagree with you about Rudd in this tho. If he’d only started taking his religion seriously after defeating Beazley I’d say you had something right but this bloke has been known around Parliament (and before) as a pretty devout person.
Why put yourself through a heap of criticism if you don’t believe.
Apparently Rudd has been attending the Catholic Church in North Sydney when staying at Kirribilli. He was brought up a Catholic - probably has never left him so therefor he would be doing something he absolutely believes in (Mary McKillop’s sainthood).
Do we really have to be so cynical about everything. I reckon the media is full of more spin and b…s..t than Rudd’s media managers.
Rena Z
You do know Henry 8 ‘invented’ the Anglican church after being denied a divorce from (divorce, beheaded, died ….whoever) by er um the pope (as in ‘does the pope shit in the woods’)? Catholics, Anglicans or any of the other off-shoots, don’t like any of them. As is mentioned somewhere above, when ‘the church’ rather than march father fiddler straight down to the police station gives him a train, bus, air ticket so he can do it again somewhere else rather than stop him or try to explain why it happened AGAIN, you lose (collectively, for you are all part of the club) any credibility you ever had, on which I’m with Dawkins.
Organised religion is without a shadow of a doubt the single greatest blight on humanity ever.
Rena Z, … and I forgot the bit about the UN (and seemingly in your opinion the WHO). Show me where I suggested they were not completely useless. That they are useless and of no consequence doesn’t in itself begin to explain why you seem to think they are corrupt. If as I suspect you believe every last member from every member nation finds a representative that knows the UN is crap and inneffective and still takes the job and the $, I suppose that’s sort of corrupt? Yes it’s a white elephant and yes it’s a toothless tiger but outside of a vague memory of one member trying to get one of their kids a job or a contract or something, compared to the Catholic (and others as above) church it’s as clean as a whistle (but still useless).
Note: MYSAY; you’re right you know. Being ‘reared’ is clearly what Christians & many Catholic clergy have made their life’s work.
Anyone who says the temporal Catholic Church isn’t morally corrupt, simply has to ask the young orphan boys of Ireland & the USA, and Australia, and New Zealand, and the UK and so on and on.
Of course there are a lot of very decent people in all religions, but in Catholicism as in Islam & Jewry, there are a lot of very bad bastards.
Tell it like it is Bernard.
Did I forget to mention that Rudd The Dudd will not be PM within 12 months…..our Christian Zionist/Catholic/Anglican, deputy leader of the West, will soon face the hard reality of running too fast…..
So anyway, we’ve all had a whale of a time pushing each other’s buttons on the big questions, which are right up there with that old favourite about trees falling in a forest, in terms of the likelihood of getting somewhere.
Now where were we? Kevin Rudd is going to Rome to lobby for an old constituent. Make that … a dead constituent. Rome was probably going to beautify her anyway, but now the Prime Minister of a secular republic comes to them as a supplicant making it clear this is important to him.
So now a little bit of Rudd’s credibility back home depends on his success in influencing church business. And he’s not without the ability to do some favours in return, being the PM and all.
BH, I’m quite prepared to believe Rudd’s a good Catholic. But does he understand the first thing about a secular republic? Is that a bit of a worry?
BH, your the only one in this debate who has nailed it.
One excellent point-not a new concept-but by God an accurate one. Is the fragility of the average Australian’s ego, that we have to suck up to every celebrity on earth.
We think of ourselves as rugged individuals in the face of all the evidence which shrieks back to us our constant tugging on our forelocks whilst bent in an obedient
half-crouch of adoration of people such as QEII, Princess Anne, the two infantile princes who for whom people like David Flint would masturbate on a bed of roses in front of the royal jet. Naked. Just to have one-maybe two of them as Governor General. Naturally an Irish Catholic like Tony Abbott would be another slavering monarchist. I’m sure Kevin Rudd, despite his protestations to the contrary, would just lurve Herself to death.
Our adulation of football players and our disdain for our artists and scientists are all born of the same chip on the shoulder attitude of ours.
Could you imagine what would happen to all our fervent Catholics if the Pope arrived on the next international flight tomorrow-dressed in a business suit? And puffing on a cigarette-he is, after all a heavy smoker.
Which among you believers would even recognise him? Ha!
What a great lot of comments. Does anyone else think KR is one of the biggest frauds ever presented to the Australian people?
@Venise
Tony Abbott isn’t Irish but apparently he did inhale the green stuff.
CHRIS: I’d say the concensus is no one trusts either of the major parties. The Howard era represented a monumental sell out of human and social values as will an Abbott-led Opposition. I think we’re doomed to lurch from one bias to another as we desperately search for a relevant alternative but no one these days with a healthy educated approach to governance wants to join a political party.
CHRIS: I don’t think Kevin Rudd is necessarily the greatest fraud ever presented to the people of Oz. He’s just another lying politician. His religious values astonish me. Usually a good education encourages people to think for themselves.
IMHO the land of Oz has been so badly sold down the nearest available non-river the MDB? It will be hard-pressed to recover. the conservative parties are riddled with evangelical Catholics who, if they had the guts, would stand as a Democratic Liberal Party.
A greater paucity of talent has seldom been seen in any country, anywhere, and for all time. These befuddled remnants of the tattered and be-splattered remnants of the John Winston Howard era, have drifted back like lumps of lard sticking together. And what do they have in common apart from their un-yielding mediocrity? Their Catholicism.
Look at the seriously addled creature with bat-wing ears who got to lead them. Look at the venom which pours forth from the shadow ministry of finance. A subject Barnaby Joyce knows bugger-all about. And WTF is a leader of the Nats doing acting in a Liberal Party? What does this repellent specimen of the rural backwoods National Party have to make him anointed to this office? He is a rabid Roman Catholic. So rabid he wants to bring down the no-fault divorce law. And BTW Barnaby Joyce is totally opposed to abortion. Even if a teenaged child is raped by her father, uncle, brother or cousin, Joyce still believes she has no right to an abortion.
These, ladies and gentlemen, are the winsome, all Australian, clean-cut and dignified members of her majesty’s loyal Opposition. On the other side of the equation we have a half-sister to John Howard. A poor deep-north Queenslander who solemnly believes in filth in the form of a naked prepubescent girl. But Queenslanders aren’t necessarily noted for being up to scratch on the artistic front.
What do the Greens offer to the public? The most bone-jarringly boring and censorious little twats like the much vaunted Clive Hamilton who crashed at the first jump. (At least Bob Brown has fought the hard yards and earned his position). But Clive Hamilton?
Gutenacht mein Herren.
@JAMESK: Sorry for that mistake. He looks like one. Cheers Venise
@Chris -yes, I do. At the end of the day, Rudd would sell his mum to the highest bidder if he could garnish a vote from it.
Rudd is such a populist PM he thinks he is a Beatle. In fact, I reckon you could get him to admit that he thinks his is bigger than a Beatle at the moment.
I reckon Rudd will have the biggest fall from grace in history, and that includes Tiger Woods!
For some crazy reason I want to say something about the bible being just a book. Which has been interpreted from an interpretation, from an interpretation of a moment in time so long ago that any of it could be true OR false but I’m not sure how that will be taken by the other commentators. The fantastic adventures in the bible are held pretty sacred by 24.54% - 28.82% of the global population.
Saying this kind of thing is as dangerous as saying the same is true for the Qu’ran since 22.752% - 23.312% of the global population believe in that book too.
-1st I’m not against believing in that which science has yet to prove. Belief is apowerful force that drives humans to accomplish many amazing & also ghastly things. I wont say what I believe in now since I’m likely to leave myself open to attack. Suffice to say I went to church as a child & believed that the stories of jesus & his mates were about the power of love, compassion, & giving. And that this power was present everywhere, every moment & in everyone for us to access if we believe in it. Oops did I just say what I believe in. Christians please note: I didn’t say I believe in Jesus being a real man or God (w/ a capital G) but I took a perspective from the stories about those 2 constructs (& all the other dudes too (not really enough dudettes in them stories!)).
-Also extremely rational yet morally defunct actions are not to be condoned by any group. (crazy idealistic communism of pol pot or eugenic fascism of hitler etc)
-The corruption of the upper ranks of most organised religions & political parties is well documented. ‘Cronyism’ is what they call it I think. Krudd & the pope are not exempt from this behavior by any means.
- Mary McKillop while ‘in corpus’ was a fantastic lady, full of virtue & gave for the love of others like a dedicated humanist. She displayed the positive characteristics of her religious practice.
- Krudd & the pope are wanting to re-appropriate her good works for their own personal gain. This, I grasped, was the over-arching bent of Bernard’s piece.
- From the polarised diatribes above the likely result of her beatification (not beautification, she is already beautiful!) will be a division of the population into those who are christian & those who are not around this issue. To me this seems a waste of time, & intellectual/emotional energy. We have way more pressing concerns at hand. There is more sense in uniting the population than dividing it.
Maybe Krudd thinks he’s sitting pretty to be voted in again so he can have this political ‘indulgence’ to impress his dead catholic gran, his parents & kids. Who knows! I can see Krudd wearing a big fat ‘Mary M’ medallion around his neck on a PHAT gold chain (given to him by the pope himself) for religious bling value as he shakes fists above his head at his 2nd election winning speech!!! ;-D
Please christian folks out there: Lets not forget the horrid things that members of the church have done in ‘re-appropraition’ of the bible for their personal goals it’s a long list now that is still growing.
Ancient history: The re-appropriation of the pagan celebration of winter solstice to be jesus’s birthday instead.
Current history: The sending of missionaries to afganistan who have no knowledge of islam or afganistan or cultural senstivity. These are australians I’m talking about.
These are both really tame examples.
Please non-christian folks out there: Lets not forget all the giving acts of those associated with the church & respect the rights of others to have a diversity of beliefs (so long as they’re not harming others).
Merry solstice feasting to you all!!!
PEDRO DEOZ: Whatever the Catholic Church gives with one hand, it turns up- armed with a front-end loader and two bulldozers to take back with the other hand. They use expensive smoke and mirroring to bedazzle the on-lookers. Invent cheap circus tricks and politically charged miracles, in the sure knowledge of how easy it is to fool the gullible.
They refuse to bring their own institutions up to date, taking refuge instead in their political clout ensuring they will never be made accountable for their crimes against humanity.
Tell me Pedro. Let’s pretend that you’ve decided to go to Switzerland over Christmas. While there you take a bad fall. You wake up just before the operation. In the room where the nurse will bring you your pre-op med shot. There are two surgeons waiting for you to answer a question.
The first one is dressed in the regulation blue cover-alls and cap and has that clean smell of someone who has just scrubbed up and is ready to go to work.
The second medico is draped in clothing straight out of men’s fashions of the pre-Roman Empire. On a lectern in front of him there are two books. One turns out to be a bible of immense age and concomitant dirt. The second volume is a medical instruction manual of the same era, and the same condition. His assistant is holding chains and other impediments to lash you to the operating table-pre anaesthesia days.
Both men will ask you to choose which medico you would rather have. Yes Pedro?
Exactly, you would choose the man who doesn’t need an instruction manual to do the job. Logical? Totally rational!
So why is it when it comes to religion, people are happy to turn to a bunch of amateurs to heal their minds? Amateurs straight out of the mysticism and ignorance of biblical times.
@ Tom & Evan
Since its formation the United Nations has run interference well beyond its original human rights charter.
The litany of UN atrocities includes the Congolese sex scandal revealed in 2004 and turning a blind eye to murderous and genocidal despotic regimes dotted throughout its member country list over decades has eroded any goodwill it may have fomented during its golden era.
Think Sudan, Zimbabwe and Somalia.
Sadly the UN saw fit to actively support the rulers of those countries even whilst they were murdering their own citizens pushing it beyond redemption.
Apart from its questionable ethics, hidden budgets and shadowy and unnaccountable bureacracies, the UN’s corruptive nadir - which lay bare the wholesale rank hypocrisy of the organisation was the despicable “Oil for Food” episode.
The Volcker Report revealed an organisation so deeply corrosive and morally bankrupt as to render it .
Successive UN leaders have presided over this global disgrace and run it with complicity.
That Kevin aspires to lead such a hopelessly compromised organisation says a lot about the calibre of the man…probably too much.
But in its role as the global police who polices the United Nations?
This leads up to the UN’s lead role in promoting and sustaining the single greatest scientific fraud in history: the IPCC Report on Global Warming.
An unmitigated disaster and a shameless advocacy platform for a one-world government.
The United Nations is something the world should all be proud of.
MOST PECULIAR MAMA:
YOU’RE OVERLOOKING THE AMAZING WORK DONE BY THE UNITED NATION’S SOCIAL WELFARE & HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES.
ALSO, EACH OF THE ACUSSATIONS YOU MAKE AGAINST IT, CAN BE MADE AGAINST THE USA.
ADDITIONALLY, ANYTHING PAUL VOLCKER PUTS HIS NAME TO IS IMMEDIATELY SUSPECT.
TELL US WHAT YOU’D REPLACE IT WITH…SOME DETAILS PLEASE.
AS A GENERAL COMMENT, YOUR STATEMENTS COME ACROSS AS JUST ANOTHER UNINFORMED SCABLIFTER VENTING THEIR PERSONAL FRUSTRATIONS IN PUBLIC…ARE YOU SURE YOU’E NOT A MATE OF JOHN BOLTON?
FINALLY IT OCCURS TO ME THAT THOSE WHO DON’T USE THEIR OWN NAMES TO COMMENT, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT MAKE THE BIGGEST CLAIMS.
MPM, the start of that was one of the most useful posts you’ve contributed; the second half is a bit unsubstantiated and contains the odd long bow.
But I agree, supporting Zimbabwe is pretty much indefensible. At least the Cricket Council have severed ties with them.
I’ve heard the argument dozens of times that Rudd wants to head the UN. Anyone know what this assertion is based on? As far as I can tell he just wants everyone to like him.
Also, the One World Government line gets trotted out a bit, as if it was evidently a bad thing. Why is it? Why is it worse than what we’ve currently got?
Venise, what twaddle. For surgery, even the Pope would choose the modern doctor out of those two.
Then you compare this to treatment of the mind. An area where modern techniques have done particularly poorly, driving a healthy woman to suicide in one recent case, and turning whole generations of psychiatric patients into therapy-addicted narcissists, regressing to childhood in order to escape it but actually getting stuck there in an endless loop.
I know there are some brilliant, often contrarian, psychiatrists and psychologists out there. But finding them is hit and miss, and I’ve met more that I would fear than ones I would trust. On balance, if knew I needed mental help and it wasn’t something extreme like a nervous breakdown, I would first try to drop everything and go spend some time laughing and drinking with some friends. If your friends don’t laugh enough, find new ones. If that didn’t work and I needed an expert, quite frankly I would first take my chances with someone religious, be it a Rabbi, an Imam, a Priest, or a Pastor. Even Tony Abbott said he got useful guidance from the Dalai Llama. If that failed I would go to a psychologist, and if that failed I would go to a psychiatrist.
“the head of one of the world’s most corrupt and damaging corporations.” Catholic Church is the world’s largest provider of aid to developing nations. How does that make it a damaging corporation?
“nonsense about miracles performed by long-dead people.” Catholics believe the miracle itself is performed by God, not by the long-dead person.
“without rigour” = 2 miracles which cannot be explained by modern science.
“ultra-reactionary and fraud” = Nobel Peace Prize winner.
“local rituals and traditions of the cults and creeds Christianity had wiped out” = anti-globalisation
“religious fundamentalists that try to influence public policy in Australia” - shouldn’t the voice of all minority groups be heard in a democracy?
“huge economic cost of major events” - shouldn’t any major event which brings joy to hundreds of thousands of Australians be supported by the governments of Australia?
The blog writer is simply mimicking the Dan Brown style of marketing
Thought Park? That’s your name?
Leaving aside the fact that you clearly didn’t actually read any of the comments, except to find 6 word sections to react to, this one sticks out:
““huge economic cost of major events” - shouldn’t any major event which brings joy to hundreds of thousands of Australians be supported by the governments of Australia?”
You think the Government should support ANY event that brings joy to hundreds of thousands of people? The mind just boggles.
All right, but apart from the nursing care, the medicine, education, classy alcohol, public health, social justice, standing against Communist oppression, charities, and international humanitarian agencies, what have the Roman Catholic Church ever done for us?
MPM – OK add incompetent to useless but I still don’t see them as corrupt after all what, apart from protecting their own employ, do they have to gain? Had forgotten the disgrace committed in the Congo and as any sane person would, I’d condemn the perpetrators and seek appropriate justice ……..
Thinks as writes: …. your right, institutionalised cover-up, is that irony in context of my assertions about the Catholic church?
OK, so I concede the UN is useless, incompetent, more than capable of a cover-up when they screw up and given its idiotic hierarchical structure, capable of total inaction (“The UN issued a strongly worded statement to …”) when presented with any situation that conflicting member nations might have ‘an interest’ in not assisting to sort out ….. all while drinking even more expensive wine than the Archbishop and dancing the night away in brothels in New York?
MPM, I think you might be onto something, but so as to not roll completely, I’ll now suggest that there might be a league table of corrupt institutions. That both the UN and the Catholics (Anglican’s et al) would be in it is now conceded, that the Catholics are on top of the table by a clear margin, I believe is still very much true.
Poor form BK. Your main point was spot on as it relates to our friend Kevin. But the remainder of the article was a simple back-handed slap at Catholics designed to create the inevitable shitstorm in the comments section. I guess it’s a blog piece though so an expression of personal opinion is inevitable.
I’m sure everyone here has something better to do than get riled up over comments that aren’t even relevant to the main point of the article, but it’s hard not to get drawn in, I guess. And some even like it, it seems.
TOM
I do not have to belong to any particular church and contribute to its financial well being. But I have to support financially the UN whether I like it or not. The recent revelations about Big Pharma and flu hysteria for financial gain of very aggressive industries should make you worry, too.
StergrenVENICE AL STERGREN
You’ve got an issue with Catholic Church, I suppose. Does that mean that you approve of all ‘happy doings’ of Anglican Church and the British Empire conquests? Since the King/Queen of England is the head of Church- politics and religion go hand-in- hand. No atrocities have ever been committed by the Protestants whether in Ireland, New World or Africa. Having said that I am fully aware of the Catholic Conquest. But why single out one creed? Any particular reason?
Australia is a protestant country. The Queen of England ids the Queen of Australia. She is the Head of Church. Thus, our king or queen cannot be a Catholic, right? Or am I missing on something? How much is our Queen responsible for our treatment of Aboriginies?
Evan
One world government means one world army to enforce recalcitrants, one currency based on electronic credits controlled by the banks (watch Soros’ interview on SDR’s), and a micro-chipped population (see Verichip). This is, according to David Rockefeller in his memoirs, eminently preferable to the current nation state approach to world governance. For him but not for us - for sure. Without the nation state, the Austrian Economists argue that we will see the immediate collapse of property rights, without which follows the loss of individual liberty and thereafter neo-serfdom with the people held under peonage by global carbon taxes on everything and distracted by ever more sophisticated versions of bread and circuses.
Over the last 30 or so years, through increasing debt via the phony home equity scam, the middle class around the globe has lost much of its wealth to the top 1% which has increased its share in the same period by 50%. With the proposed global carbon trading scheme, that transfer of wealth will ramp up to 75%, rendering the third world destitute and the middle classes debt slaves.
As Thomas Jefferson said:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered”. (From the debate over the Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809)
That it is what is wrong with global governance Evan!
Dear Mr Keane
I found your attack on the RC Church most distasteful. It is a line that is common amongst journalists and is upsetting for members of the churches in general.
I doubt you would be prepared to take such a line with the Muslim faith as you might find yourself under personal attack. To some extent that probably applies to the Jewish faith too.
Rena, what’s special about the catholic church was too much power for many centuries, which corrupted it. The breakaway of the Church of England occurred in an age of rising republicanism which would soon lead to the civil wars and the age of Parliament. As a result the Anglican church was never so powerful. What corruption still remains in the Catholic church is mainly a legacy of its extremely powerful history.
There is a common theme here, and the reluctance of most Crikey readers to acknowledge or understand it is amazing. Mingling of the powers of church and state corrupts both institutions and corrodes the freedom of citizens. Kevin Rudd has no business lobbying the Church on its spiritual decisions and the unholy deals this will inevitably lead to.
There are many comments about having been in a catholic hospital.
A hospital is a hospital and not a church.
The closest hospital to where I live is a Seventh Day Adventist one. I went there for a cancer operation. I got treated very well there. No one mentioned religion nor was I asked about it on admission. I haven’t got a clue what the SDA church stands for. Should I have asked about it beforehand?
Of course I had to pay for my treatment and stay. None of this charity stuff if you need fixing up.
So please don’t bring in that catholic hospital stuff into the discussion when the topic is about one of the bizzare practices of the catholic church.
PS. I didn’t encounter any miracle workers during the operation but my surgeon was first rate.
I relied on his skill and experience and not on his religion.
Evan the nonsense about the PM wanting to be head of the UN is a rumour started by the Libs and of course snapped up by his opponents to sling dirt, whenever it suits them, nothing else but a rumour.
VENISE ALSTERGREN
People in any human organisation/corporation/institution can become corrupt. Joining the Catholic Church does NOT provide ANY insurance that lay or clergy will NOT become corrupted. The Catholic Church even teaches that humans have a tendency to do wrong, rather than right.
Jews have taught from the scriptures [Torah] for thousands of years. Christians have taught from the bible for 1600+ years. Muslims have taught from the Koran for 1400+ years. Hindus have taught from their scriptures for thousands of years. Are these ALL examples of brainwashing?
Catholic Priests, Protestant Ministers, Judges in the Australian court system and Australian primary teachers who engage in pedophilia ALL do wrong and should be punished. Moving an offender from one location to another is also wrong.
Catholic Church in league with Hitler has become a common swipe at the Catholic Church. Best to research this in a little more detail for yourself. Why would a Jewish Rabbi of Rome convert to Catholicism after WWII if this were the case?
On child molestation the ratio of Protestant ministers (who are able to marry) who engage in child molestation is actually higher than in the celibate Catholic Church in the U.S.
Catholic Church actually honours a woman as being higher than ANY pope that has ever existed.
Hormonal birth control increases the chances of breast cancer by 6 times. Check the studies between Japan (3% hormonal birth control adoption) and the U.S. for the freaknomic analysis. You’ve just been conned by big pharma.
If someone was opposed to the Catholic Church in a constructive manner, they might ‘bat’ for an Australian WOMAN, previously EX-COMMUNICATED by the Catholic Church hierarchy, who the Catholic Church hierarchy did a backflip on and is now about to make into a Saint, providing her an extraordinarily privileged position.
In a traditional secular nation (as opposed to an anti-religious nation) the beauty of the constitutional freedom of religion is that members of parliament can come from ANY religion or creed without experiencing discrimination (or causing people to vomit).
& it goes on & on & on & on.
Honestly I dont know why I try. I was trying to be the peacemaker here & I get attacked!!
I use dietary & herbal preventative medicine 1st then medical medicine 2nd if I need it (I’ve been to public hospital once in my life & it was a from car crash that was not my fault, I’ve never used pharmaceuticals either, maybe being healthy & positive does work as preventative medicine!). I’m not a faith based health advocate. But I do recognise the power of positive thought & action. This has been documented by science for increasing white blood cell counts & other beneficial physical resutls. The posts here are negative assertions & counter assertions running in a cycle that will only eat itself.
I bet Bernard never reads the comments, he’s moved on to reporting the next story. If you are opposed to his views then perhaps you would feel safer getting your news elsewhere. That is unless you revel in being reactionary to a person who isn’t listening anyway!
Me I take this as entertainment (laughing is also good for the health)! It shows we are a bunch of fixed minded single subject freaks who love to spit drivel on the internet!!!
I gotta stop!! Good luck.
Like I said, if you want to stay pissed off w/ each others’ points of view keep reacting.
@Kevin: Surely you can’t imagine anyone is going to vote for the Mad Monk instead of Rudd?
Oh, and STOP SHOUTING!!
WELL IS IS ABOUT TIME THOSE CRITIZING OUR P.M. READ THE LATEST POLL
58/42 WITH ABBOTT THE LOWEST EVER OF INCOMING OPPOSITION LEADER where did i read in on this site.
Raymond Church, “Evan the nonsense about the PM wanting to be head of the UN is a rumour started by the Libs and of course snapped up by his opponents to sling dirt, whenever it suits them, nothing else but a rumour.”
Since you know the mind of the PM so well, perhaps you can explain something he has not explained, his decision to resume aid to Mugabe’s Zimbabwe with $33 million committed since Feb this year, when Zimbabwe flouted the election result and possibly killed Morgan Tsvangirai’s wife in an assassination attempt against the opposition leader. Australia is going it alone in this; UK and US have insisted they see some power sharing before offering aid.
The only explanation I can see so far is that it fits something that was widely predicted in the right wing media in 2008: Kevin Rudd would spend large amount of taxpayer dollars to drum up the support of African nations, where a high density of immature nations command a huge bloc of UN votes. Within that sector, Zimbabwe is widely regarded as an anti-western hero and Rudd has been acclaimed for his enlightenment.
Mugabe, I mean. As in “when Mugabe flouted …”, “Mugabe is widely regarded as …”
And that James McDonald is the proof of the rumour???? Get out of here….
No, just one piece of evidence I found more interesting than most. Besides, what would be so surprising if Rudd did have such ambitions? Someone has to fill UN roles, and few fall into such roles by accident.
James I wish not to get into a scrap over it, there are enough of them going on in this thread. I agree if KR has such an ambition nothing wrong with it. I find it a nasty tactic on behalf of the Opposition who bring it up everytime they find fault with Govt policy. That is the desperation of Abbotts rabble, they attack without sound proof. It has been used for a couple of years. The former Lib leader Malcolm Turnbull I believe used it extensively. If there is a statement from the PM regarding life after Labor and his ‘definite’ intention to seek such a UN position, then so be it. As yet there is nothing. Incidently I doubt Rudd is losing sleep over it, in fact probably enjoys it.
Such a statement would be unthinkable while he is PM. Anyway, you may be right, we’ll just have to wait and see.
JAMES MCDONALD: If Rudd is prepared to personally entertain accused Israeli war criminals, as he did two weeks ago in Sydney, then the Mugabe regime is no stretch at all.
What next? a State visit for Hun Sen or the Myanmar junta?
You see, Rudd the Dudd is a superior person to we mortals….history is his for the making….just ask him.
As the self appointed co-leader of the West, “the Dud” now operates in a moral vacuum.
I predict a Doc Evatt- type burn out for “The Dud” . I know that the ALP rank and file, as well as many Federal Labour MP’s, are seething over his arrogant leadership style.
It’s just a matter of time before they oust him…I predict within 12 months, as long as Abbott remains Opposition leader (i.e. while Abbott remains unelectable) Just like Hawke, he won’t understand why.
Where Keane sows himself to be small-minded and in addition rabidly and emotionally biased, Gerard Henderson demonstrates yet again that he is broadminded and thoughtful:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/courageous-mackillop-was-not-beholden-to-boundaries-20091214-ks6i.html
Study him Bernard and pray for similarly laudable insight and forbearance.
JAMESMcDONALD: It isn’t twaddle at all. All these religious botherers wish to have all the benefits of modern 21st century advanced medical procedures. All the enjoyment of modern techniques to produce the finest foods and wines ever known. All the benefits of the 21st century. For what?
Flogging off stone-age beliefs to people who should have more brains than to believe it.
Please don’t lecture me on what is available on the psychological and psychiatric benefits of today’s medical practices. Having been brought up in a medical environment I’m fully au fait with what’s on offer. Further more, I resent your astonishing condescension and your continual verbal flummery.
Please consider the possibility of working out a philosophy and remaining with it.
The philosophy need not be in agreement with me, but it would be fun for a change, to have discussions from a background of deep thought.
Kevin Herbert it is regretfull your state of mind prohibits you from mature adult discussions, you are sick.
Venise, I like you when you’re angry, I don’t care what anyone says.
You don’t have to throw out everything old just to make room for the new, that’s Year Zero thinking.
Scientology is new. The book “Dianetics” refers repeatedly to its techniques, adapted from a pop 1950s sort of psychotherapy, as “technology”. By your logic, that would make Scientology more acceptable than Catholicism.
Some things modern are wrongly considered better than older alternatives. Democracy is more or less a modern ideal, a secular religion you could say. Widely considered a silver bullet for every question like how to run the public service, what the Australian Republic needed more of, or what is the ultimate benchmark for rebuilding Iraq - the answer is self-evidently democracy. A case of old ideas becoming misunderstood and taken out of context. Too much of a new thing. Some of the older ways were better.
JamesK, note that while Bernard treats the Church organisation as fair game for taking the piss, at no point did he insult people’s choice of faith. Offend maybe, but it’s not the same thing as insulting.
Some of the really rabid atheist-orthodox commissars in the Crikey reader community, who never miss a chance to vomit their hatred against those they consider heretics, might care to take note of the difference.
[Edit - Please refrain from insulting other commenters]
James M - Dianetics/Scientology is new bullsh*t pushed on the gullible, as opposed to old bullsh*t pushed on the gullible. It has as much to do with modern medical science as “Christian Science”.
Re. “some of the older ways were better”. Compared with democracy, which older way would you prefer and why?
Richard Wilson - “One world government means one world army”… “a micro-chipped population” … “David Rockefeller” … “Austrian Economists” … “people held under peonage by global carbon taxes on everything ” etc etc etc
You are a hard-core conspiracy loon.
Malcolm,
I suggest you take a cool shower…you only need to read the charters of the various international organisations emerging after WWII, or the reports from their appointed advisory bodies to know that what I say is true. You only need to research the US Congressional records of the 50’s and 60’s to see that the directions are all clearly laid out.
You only have read David Rockefeller’s memoirs.
You only need to look at Iceland and the Baltic states to see what is happening to them today under the yoke of the UK and Swedish bankers could happen to any country. Eastern Europe is soon to follow.
As for Austrian Economics, only a political decision on the part of the Brits in the 19th century enabled the bogus Keynesean doctrine to usurp the measured theory of the Austrians. Keynes was endorsed mainly because he sprouted the kind of trash that governments love - endless spending and deficit financing into oblivion.
Desist with your virulent ad homenomics sir!
Malcolm Street, “Dianetics/Scientology is new bullsh*t pushed on the gullible, as opposed to old bullsh*t pushed on the gullible. It has as much to do with modern medical science as ‘Christian Science’.”
Exactly. Fairly much what I would say about psychoanalysis. A branch of voodoo philosophy masquerading as science. Probably a bigger money making industry than Scientology. And unlike psychoanalysis patients, I do know some scientologists who appear to benefit from its support, however bizarre its origins.
“Re. ‘some of the older ways were better’. Compared with democracy, which older way would you prefer and why?”
This would be worth a whole thread to itself, but not here. Suffice it to say, democracy is a sort of capstone institution for a liberal republic with separated powers, rule of law, and a well established economy. The final separation of powers, if you like. It is not be the be-all, end-all, solution to every political problem, and it is not a suitable methodology for transforming Iraq or Afghanistan into a free society. Think of Germany 1933.
Venise, I love it when you call me names
There’s a common pattern in all the good points made in this thread.
MPM: “Since its formation the United Nations has run interference well beyond its original human rights charter.”
Kevin Herbert: “You’re overlooking the amazing work done by the United Nations’ social welfare & humanitarian agencies.”
Stiofan: “The Catholic Church is ‘the most hypocritical and corrupt body’ either of you can think of? … Without too much effort, the Chinese Communist Party comes easily to mind as a prime contender.”
Pedro: “Please non-christian folks out there: Lets not forget all the giving acts of those associated with the church & respect the rights of others to have a diversity of beliefs (so long as they’re not harming others).”
Rena: “The United Nations and the WHO - the epicentre of corruption.. Except for Korean war, the UN have never really succeeded in solving any of the world’s conflicts. Try to read the United Nations Charter and then we can get back to comparing the UN and the Vatican … I do not have to belong to any particular church and contribute to its financial well being. But I have to support financially the UN whether I like it or not.”
John Flynn: “Some people do actually believe in God and to reduce the Catholic Church to a purely cynical operation in power reveals a very superficial and inadequate approach.”
Evan Beaver: “The Catholic church … is based on some fundamentally good ethics. Treat others as you want to be treated, turn the other cheek. But the application of these ethics and the ramifications of their interpretations has been perverted for a long time by people looking for ways of controlling the masses.”
Chris Johnston: “I’d say the concensus is no one trusts either of the major parties.”
ThirdBorn: “Religion and state should be seperate, full stop.”
See the common pattern here?
Bodies like the Catholic Church, the UN, political parties for the common people … they can be good at times or corrupt at times. They can even be good and corrupt at the same time.
The critical factor is how much power are allowed to accumulate. They all have a legitimate place in the world, but their power must be kept on a tight leash.
YAK, YAK, AND DOUBLE YAK! Bet you won’t publish it. So there!
I have been looking for a really good blog pseudonym, something different.
Venise, I think you might just have found it for me.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Bos_grunniens_-_Syracuse_Zoo.jpg
JAMES McDONALD: re your latest attack on me. “I love it when you call me names!” To which I replied. “You’re a dirty old man!”.
It was part of a considered and refined piece of prose written in the attempt to explain that I’m not against religion. People are perfectly free to believe in what and/or who they want to. (Deluded they may be but it is their business).
However,my point was. The Catholicism of persons in our parliament is as repulsive as it is abhorrent because they have no hesitation in undermining our constitution and imposing upon us their beliefs. If an ordinary, once-a-year church-going Australian attempted to pass laws preventing politicians from being catholics he or she would be lynched.
As a tax-payer I resent paying for their jamborees, I resent funding their pernicious undermining of our structure and our way of life. Why can’t they go back to where they came from. And all usual racist remarks.
Hear, Hear. Now you draw a distinction between the power of an institution and people’s freedom to follow its faith. The power and the faith are not the same thing. The one stains the other, and people who simply wish to live for their God are not to blame.
And I agree, initiatives to censor the internet and block gay marriage are driven by religious power. Outlawing of abortion is predominantly so. Exertions of power by the religious over the nonreligious. A defence service or a sports club attempting to cover up s-x crimes is treated somewhat differently than a church. Kind of like a tax break.
Venise, if things reach a point that I think the church is running the show, I will march right beside you in a demonstration; and if people are too complacent to march, I will stage a protest myself in such a way that you will see it on the channel 9 news. But it’s a thing to be done very carefully, and not to joke about, as the fact remains the church does more good than harm, and these things can give rise to a misdirected pogrom against overwhelmingly decent church members for their spiritual beliefs.