As climate changes, Greens are the new black
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You won’t find out from the mainstream media’s coverage of opinion polls, but the Greens appear to be the primary beneficiaries of the CPRS confrontation between the Government and the Opposition. It wasn’t a confrontation, of course, until Tuesday. Until then, there had been a growing policy love-in between the moderate Liberals and Labor over how generously to reward some of Australia’s biggest polluters. Government Ministers this week pointedly noted that John Howard took an ETS to the last election, and Malcolm Turnbull repeatedly said that the CPRS was very similar to the scheme John Howard would have gone with. As it turns out, that’s exactly the message that might drive some voters to switch to the Greens in search of politicians who actually want to do something about climate change. The increase in the Greens vote is small enough to be mere statistical chatter – a perennial problem with making any sense of small party votes – but last weekend’s Newspoll had the Greens’ primary vote rising to 12%, after hovering at 10% for the last two months. Last weekend’s Nielsen poll had the Greens up to 13%, after garnering 8s and 10s for most of this year. Essential Research, though, hasn’t picked up any movement, with the Greens remaining at around 8%. Morgan Poll has the Greens up slightly to 9%, although they’ve been higher at various points in the last year, including a brief increase to over 11% in July. The bigger shock, though, is from Galaxy, which in its two most recent Queensland state polls, has the Greens at 15%, which as a Crikey reader pointed out, the Courier-Mail oddly failed to mention. That’s up from 12% back in September. This week’s McNair Gallup online poll had the Greens on 11%, but there’s no time series data for comparative purposes. The McNair Gallup data undercut the theory that Green voters are disillusioned with Labor, however, because more Green voters than ALP voters (40% to 37%) supported the Government’s ETS. They also understood the ETS better than other voters. That suggests the new Greens may be former Liberal voters. Some of the polling data suggests increases in the Green vote come at the expense of the Labor primary vote, which would not concern the ALP too much because preferences would tend to flow back to Labor. What will concern the Liberal Party more immediately is not whether Labor votes will switch to the Greens but whether their own base support will switch. That could be disaster scenario that plays out in Higgins tomorrow. Labor is undoubtedly ruing not running a candidate now, but the silver lining for Labor is that a strong showing by Clive Hamilton would inflict substantial damage on Tony Abbott’s leadership, suggesting that even relatively safe Liberal seats might be endangered by the new climate denialist leadership of the party. Malcolm Mackerras has tipped Hamilton to knock off Kelly O’Dwyer. It’s a brave person to bet against Mackerras, but a boilover of that magnitude would be astonishing. Even so, Labor hardheads might watch with concern given Lindsay Tanner’s vulnerability in Melbourne, where he will be up against high-profile Green Adam Bandt again next year. Exactly where the apparent lift in Green votes is coming from – disgruntled environmental-minded Labor voters or disillusioned and disgusted Liberals – will be a topic of considerable interest to both parties for the next 12 months. |
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154 Comments
For the record.
I am a staunch Liberal voter. Have been my entire life. Bred into me by a self-employed father and a private school education. I am acutely aware of my role in the political scheme of things.
I live in Higgins.
Tomorrow I’m voting for the Greens.
EREZ….I am so proud of you!! I wish I still lived there so I could vote for Clive.
To anyone else in Higgins….let it be a real showdown!
CLIVE HAMILTON FOR HIGGINS!!!
@Erez: I’d suggest reading the policies they have on their website first.
I live in Higgins and i am putting that nutjob Hamilton last on my vote, the man’s a raving lunatic!
You might flirt with the greens, but it’s labor and the libs you bring home to meet the parents.
Having read their policies, it is highly likely I would be voting for them tomorrow if I had to vote in Bradfield or Higgins. Given there are no Labour candidates it will be difficult to tell if there will be a backlash against the Labour NSW or federal Liberal chaos of the last couple of days.
reading the Green policies from their website is probably a good idea, it will give you a more accurate information than relying on the herald sun.
Re. the Courier Mail and lack of reporting of the green rise, I think News Ltd are running the line that Labour are in trouble in North Queensland - because of the ETS, having higher green primary vote tends to put a dent in that.
Hamilton a nutjob? Perhaps. Abbott precariously perched on the edge of the civilised world? Without a doubt. Give me a well meaning lunatic over a savvy fundamentalist every election day.
You wish, Bernie-baby.
Hmm, yeah, what a choice…
Vote for the party whose leader wants control over what you read and watch in line with his religious beliefs?
Or the bloke who wants control over what you read and watch because he’s a Professor and just, you know, knows what’s best for everyone?
I’ve been door-knocking in Higgins with Clive this week and I’ve never had such a good reception from punters. Life long Lib voters are angry, dismayed and even ashamed of this week’s events inside the party. Even in the burbs it wasn’t hard to get people taking about politics. Some had already decided to vote Green, others were very open to it once they became aware that Labor weren’t contesting. It’s been the best few days of campaigning ever!
Tomorrow will be closer than most people will expect.
I live in Higgins, and I’ve heard absolutely nothing from ACF, Beyond Zero, Environment Victoria, GreenPeace, WWF or any other major environmental group.
As this is the closest we are likely to get to a referendum on climate change, it is a shock to me, and very worrying, that ALL of these groups have chosen to remain quiet.
I would love to know why they kept quiet. Anyone know?
Greens voter, but big lol for Scott’s comment.
“I live in Higgins and i am putting that nutjob Hamilton last on my vote, the man’s a raving lunatic!”
That’s a bit rich from someone who thinks the current temperature in China disproves the reality of climate change. Still, I suppose he is not a lunatic - just wilfully stupid.
It seems Johnfromtheplanetearth is actually from Mars! Clive Hamilton is not a nut job and if you’d bother to know anything about him you’d understand. I’d love to know what the hell Kelly O’Dwyer has actually done other being the Lib candidate and having zero policy on climate change? And I think the Libs are going to get a shock tomorrow so get ready for it.
Hamilton is a fruitcake orbiting another planet - yes, he’s high profile but the Greens really could have found someone much more competent and given themselves a greater chance.
In the event of an upset though, he will at least be pulled somewhat into line by the party once in parliament - Bob Brown and Co have worked too hard for too long for them to allow it all to undone by the delusional rantings of Hamilton.
As a Greens member I am always at pains to point out that they we much more broad spectrum than people think.
The word is balance.
If these others aren’t listening that’s a shame, but if I was in Higgins I’d be out there helping Clive H. Nutter? Wilfully stupid? Where the hell does that come from? His books no doubt……… let me see…
I find it hard to believe that Lindsay Tanner could be vulnerable. A lesser Labor figure could perhaps be vulnerable but to lose a local member, who is at the heart of a popular government, is not a credible scenario.
And while Clive Hamilton is a well-known figure I, for one, have never heard of Adam Bandt.
Kelly O’Dwyer’s whole campaign has been about presenting her as a soft, caring person who listens and really cares about local issues.
Part of this campaign strategy has been to not mention the Greens, and so there has been no liberal info about Clive, and nothing said by them about Green’s policy.
In fact when Kelly meets voters she campaigns against Labor.
So the fact is that the vast majority of voters in Higgins will not have heard any of the claims that Clive is radical, etc.
It will be an interesting evening tomorrow!
Hamilton a delusional fruitcake? God help anyone who has a passion and actually gives a rats about this world. How unfortunate that Hamilton isn’t a cookie cut out politician…made from the same white dough as all the others, spouting the same malarkey year in year out. Goodness me how novel…to actually have a candidate running that is geniunely concerned about the matters at hand and not too fussed about the “this is the way we do things” rubbish. No wonder this country’s never seen a real political revolution…half its population is asleep and the other half only care about their own hip pockets no matter who or what may suffer as a result of it. Affluenza anyone???
Mackerras reckons the Greens will win. Then I am certain the younger Bronwyn Bishop (O’Dwyer - have a look - crazy) will win. That bloke is more wrong than politicians in speedos.
Overall, the thrust of the article is believable. Many will want to see the ETS renegotiated so that it is tougher and more ambitious and that should substantially increase the Green vote.
The problem with the two-party system as it stands is that it presents voters with a lack of choice on climate change policy. The choice between Liberals (no action) and Labor (bad ineffective policy) is a false one. If this is the beginning of the end for the Liberal Party it will still take at least three electoral cycles for the Greens to become the major opposition party. By then the failure to act effectively on climate change will have had even greater consequences.
Not all greens are ex-labor. In Port Jackson here we have some lovely twin-set and pearls ladies who shudder with disgust at doing deals with Labor. I’ll be handing out how-to-votes Greens in Bradfield tomorrow and it Will be juicy…
Tony Abbott has an important contribution to make to the future of Australia - and that is to sufficiently alienate voters that a stronger cross bench can be elected and force the ALP to devise an ETS which is functional. After that he can retire, rapture, go into seclusion or otherwise depart after a job well done. With the assistance of his party, I expect.
It’s absurd to say that it is foolish to doubt Mackerras (“It’s a brave person to bet against Mackerras”). He has a history of being spectacularly wrong. In fact he rather enjoys being seen to hold contrarian views, which only increases the likelihood of making silly remarks, and clearly he never learns from his blunders.
EREZ GORDON
Good on you. I come from a working class country background with no private schools to be seen and I vote green. I dont agree with all that they advocate but I find myself agreeing with most of what Clive Hamilton has to say.
The fact that known idiots like john from off his head and scott of the infantile wit are supporters of the extreme right would be enough to make any sane person seek other company (birds of a feather sort of thing).
I also don’t agree with everything the Greens stand for, but being in the electorate of Tangney, which is horribly represented by Dr Dennis Jensen, I love nothing more than to stick it up that denialist fruitcake.
Good luck in Higgins.
Since I went to Mount Scopus Memorial College and had a small business running father who survived the Holocaust, and have a brother who is a staunch Liberal and barracks for Carlton, like I do and have voted Liberal for my whole life until the recent election because of that arrogant, belligerent twerp John Howard. I will vote the Greens too.
The Liberals are being taken over by (secretly) anti-Semitic backward redneck drunks that have no concern for their children and the world their children are going to inherit. Gone are the days of flamboyant, charming, and ideology and forward-thinking liberal leaders like Malcolm Fraser and Andrew Peacock.
Whilst the Greens don’t have proper , well thought out policies, I will vote for them in staunch protest against these lunatics like Minchin, Tuckey, the Farmers and that crazy homo guy from Family First, who defintely isn’t representing *my* family!!
Hey Yuval, I get the rancour, the feeling of betrayal, the need to protest against a fanatic right wing element. All that makes sense.
What weirds me out a little is your use of extreme right-wing language and clearly fascist outlook.
Protest by all means but don’t think your extremism is an antidote for theirs.
Most Peculiar Mama
Posted Friday, 4 December 2009 at 3:41 pm | Permalink
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
How predictable.
Michael Wilbur-Ham said, “I live in Higgins, and I’ve heard absolutely nothing from ACF, Beyond Zero, Environment Victoria, GreenPeace, WWF or any other major environmental group.”
These are apolitical organisations that have to deal with whoever is in government. Why would they get involved in partisan politics?
They should be apolitical and support any party who are committed to doing what they want for the environment.
So, if they were standing and had environmental policies similar to the Greens, these organizations should all support the “Nazi’s for climate change action” party or the “Taliban’s for climate change action” party.
In a democracy we get what we vote for, and in fact it can be argued to be undemocratic for an elected government to change their minds based on a lobby group.
The one thing we can say about the environmental lobby’s policy of not upsetting Liberal or Labor is that, so far, it has failed spectacularly.
@Pete WN
Is he fruitcake because he happens to be the only Ph.D in Science in parliament and in a ‘hard’ scientific discipline of Physics [BAppSc (RMIT), MSc (Melb), PhD (Monash)] or is it because he disagrees with you?
How is it that if he “horribly” represents Tangney, he was re-elected in Nov 2007?
What be easier ‘agree’ with the MSM opinion that or disagree?
Can you provide any evidence to support your sliming of this man?
Who are you? Are you qualified to slime? Are your qualifications and community service comparable to Jensen’s?
Do you have a Ph.D. in Slime?
Somehow I doubt it Mr. Pete W ‘Slimer’ N.
It really is time for more Greens in both houses of Parliament. Lets start on the lower house tomorrow!
The Greens principle for managing risk, the PP (Precautionary Principle) is a worry, because basically it advocates taking no risk in any circumstances whatsoever, which is at odds with the way we make most things progress.
The social theorist and climate change activist Anthony Giddens writes strong critiques of the PP.
It is regrettable that the mainstream media get so obsessed with chasing seductive stories about State and Federal power struggles, that we miss a broader examination of the policy and principles that drive Green politics and the realities that confront those who seek refuge in their rise to power.
I was recently hosted by two self funded retirees on the NSW South Coast who are members of the South East Region Conservation Alliance. One a former stockbroker, the other a Phd in Education majoring in information technology. Both from the northern suburbs of Sydney.
Lefty extremists? I don’ t think so. Their concern was climate change and the role of forest conservation to sequester carbon. All very rational stuff really.
Myself, I’m a commercial litigator by training, with the conservative notion of giving the planet the benefit of the doubt. Now where have I heard that phrase before ….
Here’s a review of the Giddens book mentioned above by Environmental
http://www.nature.com/climate/2009/0907/full/climate.2009.61.html
Re Tanner being vulnerable to Greens in Melbourne, surely the highest profile government member at serious risk is Albanese in Grayndler (inner city Sydney/Marrickville/Newtown etc). In a seat that hasn’t left the ALP fold since Federation he’s been dependent on preferences in the last two elections against the local, barely funded Greens. Roll on DD, with the lower quota for the Senate.
Keep your knickers on Bolly, did you know it’s warming on Mars too? How did that happen? Haven’t seen any humans up there have you? Put down that fairy tale book and get real, this fruitloop Hamilton has compared Climate Change deniers to that of Holocaust deniers? WTF? What a disgraceful thing to say. The man is a mental case, i believe in the Holocaust, i don’t believe in man made Climate Change, it is a fraud. Yes Dave tell your story to the people of Northern China who are freezing currently like they always do at this time of year, just like we are hot at this time of year too, just like it always has been for thousands of years. It is a perfectly natural occurrence, i guess it gives some lefties something to do over summer, complaining about the weather is now this religions favourite pastime. Where does Hamilton live? In the seat of Higgins? What is his policy on local issues? How early the fruit is falling this season if anyone votes for this nutcase, the planet is just fine, it’s some of it’s people who are a little touched. I’m not into religious cults either!!
JamesK: nice to see you showing your colours (if unintentionally?).
Dr Jensen once claimed at a town hall meeting that, actually, the greatest “greenhouse gas” was H2O, and therefore CC from “so called Greenhouse Gasses” is laughable. He was overlooking the concept of “Human Induced” effects, so its a good example of mis-information and obfuscation that can be used, even by a phd (not in Climate Science, BTW).
Why is he horribly representing Tangney? Well, maybe he’s a nice guy, but he did lose the Libs’ pre-selection, only to be bailed out by Howard. So that’s not really representing the electorate’s wishes, is it.
Plus most of Tangney’s residents who commute daily past the Swan River’s newly installed sea walls — put there specifically because of the effects of rising sea levels on the Kwinana Freeway each winter — probably have a more realistic view on CC than Dr Jensen.
As a resident of Higgins I have to think Malcolm Mackerras is living up to his usual reputation as a weather-vane gone wrong. Always pointing in the wrong direction.
I have a less sanguine view of the outcome for Higgins. 1) Ms Kelly O’Dwyer is yet another typical Liberal Party candidate. Catholic and conservative. Indeed it is hard to think of any Liberal party members who are not Catholic. Led by the bloody arrogant, budgie smugglers, son of the Opus Dei, Tony Abbott. We are a secular nation being dominated by men of religious radicalism. I will not be voting for the Libs.
The Labor Party didn’t even deign to field a candidate. So I can’t vote for them.
Clive Hamilton of the Greens, reveals The Greens abysmal lack of candidates with charisma.Which, for better or for worse, dominates political leadership these days. The really bad news is that, the man wants to dictate to us how we should live our lives. How dare he be in favour of censorship of the internet.
What kind of democracy does Oz live in, when we can’t even lodge a vote for our real party of our choice?
If people are predicting a massive swing to the Greens in Higgins they have obviously forgotten all the previous occasions that this prediction has been made.
O’Dwyer will canter it in. The oldies love her, the catholics love her. These two facts will ensure her getting in without prefs. The Greens will be lucky to get 9% of the vote, perhaps 10% by way of the failed ETS disaster.
Higgins is not a seat of hot headed idealism. It is old, tired, riven by different sections of it pulling against each other, Peter Costello, Michael Kroger, Jeff Kennett, and it is small business and retirement homes.
There are parts of it who are young and wanting change. But having lived here for most of my life, I know the different areas, for ten years I lived in the Greek/nightclub/entertainment/gays/transvestites areas/Windsor/Toorak etc; it’s a terrific place to live. But a hotbed of political awareness it ain’t.
Venise,
Don’t let your Labor bias take over from reality.
Apparently even the Liberals think it might be close.
I don’t expect Clive to win (but would be pleased if he did), I think it might go preferences, and I expect Kelly to win.
“Greens lucky to get 9%” is just plain silly.
Bolly Knickers
Posted Friday, 4 December 2009 at 2:25 pm - I’m not a Liberal voter, but I’d give the Greens my vote too!
JAMESK - You’re not denying PETEWN his democratic right to air his opinion are you? No, surely not! Didn’t think so! After all, you vote liberal - the champions of free enterprise and democracy eh??Oh, except if there’s a big threat to capitalism, then you don’t mind if govts socialize the losses after privatising the profits????? The US did the same to the tune of, how many billions? Or is it trillions now? No, that’s the cost of killing innocents in Afghanistan & Iraq! How silly of me!
I’ll be awaiting the results tomorrow - hopefully - with caution! Experience of the electorate!
They’re the bastions of democracy too!!!!
@Pete WN
If “Dr Jensen once claimed at a town hall meeting that, actually, the greatest “greenhouse gas” was H2O” then he would have been correct:
http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/H20-CO2-contributions-GHG.htm
But, Pete, you don’t need to have a Ph.D. to know that if you bothered to inform yourself and actually read up on the topic that our PM describes “as the greatest moral challenge of our time”.
[Edit]
@Eretz Gordon: “What weirds me out a little is your use of extreme right-wing language and clearly fascist outlook. Protest by all means but don’t think your extremism is an antidote for theirs.”
From what he wrote there, Yuval is not any sort of extremist. As a born-and-bred one party loyalist yourself, you missed the point that Yuval votes for principles, not a brand name, and his understanding of those principles makes him a dying breed, both inside and outside the party.
Bernard Keane seems to agree that it’s the thinkers that are deserting the Liberal party first, if I understand this point correctly: “[The McNair poll showed Green voters] understood the ETS better than other voters. That suggests the new Greens may be former Liberal voters.”
@ James McDonald
and in turn you missed the point. i welcome Yuval’s opinion. I just ask that his terminology avoid histrionics. less sex & race based denigration and more analysis leads to productive dialogue. donchya think?
The McNair poll shows that Green voters understand the ETS? If that’s the case then i know the meaning of life!!! Do they understand that the ETS will cost Australians $Billions? A cap and trade in the USA $Trillions? And for what? Any deal done in Copenhagen or Timbuktu without emission cuts from China, India and Brazil is absolutely useless and any deal Australia does will be severely detrimental to the growth of this country and to the future of our children, who will look back on the early part of this century and wonder what on Earth were these idiots thinking?
The planet is doing just fine, i can’t say the same thing about many of it’s people!
It was a little chilly down at the polling booth this morning.
@Erez, sorry I misspelled your name. Don’t know where the ‘t’ came from. My comment’s still in moderation.
Johnfromanotherplanet: “The planet is doing just fine”. Maybe the planet he lives on. Certainly not this third rock from the sun. Funny how these septics, not only contradict the mountains of evidence which indicate global warming is happening, they’re also quite happy to dismiss the whole fields of ecological and biological research. There is undeniable (for sane people) evidence that the plane it NOT doing fine, but John can glibly say it is. Just because he lives in a nice green suburb. Get out a bit, John.
GREGB - I agree with you. I think what’s important to contemplate, is that many farmers are also convinced that the planet is warming - I’ve read many articles in the SMH for example; those who fought the bushfires in Vic, and this season too - fireies demonstrated outside Federal Parlt. re their concerns.
I’ve also heard and read, that an important barometer is the temperature of the ocean/s. As a person living about 3 blocks from the ocean (along with hundreds of thousands of others) I’m most concerned about climate change. I also had a baby who had asthma from 2 weeks of age - a more scary experience re sick kids is hard to imagine(except for cancer??). I have grand kids with asthma - several hundreds of athmatics are dying each yr. This is just one aspect of stuffing up the planet - there’s heaps more. Why is cancer increasing at such an alarming rate - one in two will be diagnosed in their lifetime? I think that’s a national crisis, but I’m one of a few voices in the wilderness. Where did all that contaminated soil from the weapons tests end up? In the soil? the food? water?
Perhaps we keep on putting garbage into the environment, and then breathing it in! Now the planet is sick, we’re getting sicker, with more killer diseases!
Makes awful sense to me!
I hear the Libs rattling on about the so-called debt we’re leaving our grand kids, but they don’t have a problem with using their fresh air today - and leaving them with s**t for their future lives or their kids? ‘Let’s not spoil the ‘making money’ game while we’re alive, and who cares about the planet after we’re gone’!
Now, that’s what I call selfish! Greedy bastards!
Amazing, my last comment moderated out!
@Erez, you called someone a fas-cist without apparently having a clue what that means, after he described the extremification of the right in a way that was colourful but essentially correct, cutting to the bone. The fact that no one else corrected you has got me worried that the more people bandy words around here, the stupider they get.
Yuval mourns “Gone are the days of flamboyant, charming, and ideology and forward-thinking liberal leaders like Malcolm Fraser and Andrew Peacock,” and contrasts this to the rise of the hillbilly in the Australian right, which has been going on just as he describes in the last 15 years. And you ignorantly accused him of “clearly fas-cist outlook”. If you want to start learning what that f-word means, check out Steve Fielding’s speech to parliament on same s-x marriage (on his website).
I notice that a group associated with the U.S. Heartland Institute, the source for Steve Fielding’s ‘open minded’ views, posted a celebratory article after the ETS Bill was defeated. It was provided by Ray Jones, who is connected with the ‘Lavoisier’ group here in Australia.
See http://www.globalwarming.org/2009/12/01/australian-senate-defeats-cap-and-trade-bill/
They write that “Ray and the Lavoisier Group have waged a brilliant and determined fight against cap-and-trade in Australia.” Another point to note is the list of associated organisations on the above site - all notable neoconservative groups in the U.S. It’s been pointed out before that Heartland were the group retained by the tobacco lobby.
I guess it stands to reason that these interest groups wouldn’t want to see Australia finalise a carbon emissions policy, and our boys didn’t let them down.
Perhaps the article below signals the make or break moment, which took place in the Victorian Branch of the Libs in early November. As much as Kevin Rudd was panned for his speech just prior to the Four Corners program, his information must be pretty good.
See http://www.theage.com.au/environment/climate-change/climate-sceptics-persist-against-turnbull-20091107-i2vs.html
It all makes me wonder whether Peter Costello’s decision to move on was based on a sense that things were starting to turn to the far right in Liberal circles, and it was a bridge too far for him.
You guys are pretty cluey - have you heard of the Lavoisier Group before?
Johnfromanotherplanet: Do you have children? My bet is you don’t because if you did…surely you’d care more about the state of the environment and the future of their life experience on the planet rather than worrying about the supposed detrimental effects Copenhagen will have on the growth of this country. Evidently, you are another climate change skeptic who simply refuses to acknowledge the OVERWHELMING data and support for the science in favour of your own biased views. Whatever the case….you should tell that to the people whose homes are vanishing at a rapid rate in the Pacific Islands. I’m sure they’d love to hear your DO NOTHING approach to climate change since it just isn’t happening and if it is, geesh…well we didn’t cause it. Again…another conservative right winger incapable of accepting any responsibility for the crap state the world finds itself in.
And my lovely knickers are well and truly on.
LIZ45- I’m totally with you love. Once again, clearly a mother and grandmother has a sense of the urgency of some matters over others. I totally agree we are a very sick society. Not just physically but mentally and emotionally as well. Only the blinkered minority fringe on the right who are incapabale of siding with their arch nemesis’ the “greenies” dispute this.
Um, I’ve forgotten who asked the question. “Has anyone hear heard of the Lavoisier
Group?” Only vaguely but their CEO is none other than Hugh Morgan CEO of Western Mining-about to retire in a week or so.
His political views make your average CEO either to rush over to grovel; or to slide quickly under the nearest table. He’s a very short man, as with most of the world’s trouble makers, emperors, conquerors-most of whom always want to be thought of as big men.
Most readers probably thought Hitler, Pol Pot, Kim song-il were all a tad fascist. No, no, no, I’m talking so far right-wing that he’s almost left-wing. Were lies the beginning of one and the end of another?
Cheers
Oh Christ! The anti-Venise moderator is back from his/her holidays.
It was wonderful without them. I wrote lots of stuff, none of it offensive, none of it to be moderated, although there were some cries of outrage from others; I was happy.
Back to the freaking drawing-board. Or, perhaps you would like another holiday?
^ In that case I don’t dare mention your name for fear of being put in the inspection queue, too.
VENISE - What happens? Do you use foul language or what? I don’t understand the reasoning here!
(venise) - Posted Friday, 4 December 2009 at 8:26 pm | Permalink
I agree with your analysis of today’s bi-election/s. I’ve been hopeful before, on many occasions, only to feel let down and disappointed. What’s wrong with the Australian people; are we really right wing, staid and afraid of change - we got rid of Howard didn’t we? Are the catholics that powerful? (silly question?)I would’ve thought that the area you mentioned would be politically savvy? I don’t understand it at all!
My late parents, both catholics, from Victoria were fans of Archbishop Mannix? I remember that much - part of the split I suspect. I read about Santamaria years ago, and decided that I couldn’t stand a bar of him then - doesn’t surprise me that Abbott’s a fan. They’re a controlling bunch aren’t they? There was often a situation, where my dad and a sister would be helping out on one polling booth(for so-called independent councilors - conservative) and I’d be helping out for the ALP? Haven’t done that since 1984, when Hawke went back on uranium mining, and gave the go ahead to the 3rd? mine - against ALP policy that had taken yrs to win - by many before me.(gave us the middle finger - now, most branch members get the middle finger in NSW?) That was it for me - have never helped since, and now I vote for the Greens or a better left candidate if one available.
Does Hamilton want to control all of the Internet, or just protect kids? I’m in favour of protecting kids from being exposed to ‘grot’, including those ‘low lifes’ who groom kids for sex - what diabolical acts. Every now & then I get nervous about accidently coming across some revolting site - I’d be scared stiff I’d be accused of something awful. I never preface any request in google etc with ‘kids’?I must say I was pleased, when my eldest son and his wife bought their kids a laptop, that they can use at the dining room table, where a parent can keep an eye to protect them from harm - particularly when I hear of kids being ‘groomed’ or worse, and sadly, to protect them from bullying when they’re older.
I agree with Clive re the sexualising of kids for profit - I hate it too. Bras etc for girls of 9 - truly?Make up etc to make them pretty, when they’re just lovely the way they are(except when they’re dressing up or something?). I’m glad I’m not raising kids now; I find it pretty daunting really!
Well, polling booths closed almost 30 mins ago - the die is cast as they say! I’m feeling nervous. I’d just like a good swing away from the conservatives, and away from the so-called christian democrats, who are neither christian, or believe in democracy - racist attitudes to people who are Muslims just one aspect! They put 9 people(all cd’s) on the ticket in Brendon Nelson’s seat - surely that would just make for more informal votes? Perhaps that’s the plan. I bet the ALP is kicking themselves for not fielding candidates, although I can sympathize with their thoughts at the time - the difference a few weeks can make!
Cheers Venise!
VENISE = Just in case the post before this is passed by the moderator. I was joking about you using ‘foul language’? I just don’t understand why your posts are not published? Too much anti religion perhaps? Well, I have next to no tolerance for the so-called ‘formal’ religions, or the informal ones for that matter. I like John Lennon’s ‘Imagine’ for this reason! (and others?)
@James McDonald
You’re right James. I was playing a bit fast and loose with the meaning of ‘fascist’. Let’s put that down to my natural flamboyance, which should endear me to Yuval.
But how exactly would you define Yuval’s stance as represented by his reference to “that crazy homo guy from Family First”? Moderate? Rational? Flamboyant? Charming?
Take the tin-foil hats off, guys: certain keywords and posting styles automatically send posts into the moderation queue. Some serial offenders have all their posts vetted to make life easier for us.
Comments containing personal attacks on other posters or slanderous/defamatory statements get taken out.
Keep the comments and discussion productive, relevant and non-personal (and spare a modicum of patience with the very small team of people trying to keep on top of the hundreds, some day thousands, of comments posted on this site), and you shouldn’t have any problems.
@Ruth, I know moderators have a hard job to do, but it’s also a bit of a sacred trust. My previous comment, which was accepted as a fair call by the person I addressed it to, is substantially the same as the previous one that was moderated out just because of a few keywords. I call on moderators please to read carefully anything that they censor before doing so.
@Erez, I believe Yuval made a slip of idiom there. “Homo” would normally be a pejorative for homos-xuals, but I believe in context he could only have meant “homophobic”. In another article, Family First Senator Andrew Fielding expresses the view that same s-x marriage is equivalent to in-cest. Charming fellow.
The key to Fielding’s fas-cism is the commonly used and rarely questioned notion of “the institution of marriage”. The Court is an institution, Parliament is an institution, free speech is an institution. Marriage is not an institution, it is a private contract between two persons which family, friends, the state, and God may variously be called upon to witness. For the Fieldings of this world, everything is an “institution” and therefore subject to the legitimate interference of democracy and the state. Therein lies the key to the infinitely varied forms of fas-cism which are taking over all sides of Australian politics and which Yuval was railing against.
A “sacred trust”? Perhaps moderators should be required to take holy orders before they are allowed to touch the precious texts posted here.
LIZ: No, it’s just that I get over-heated and inclined to use ad-hominem remarks. I had a glorious stretch of not being moderated, then suddenly struck a wall on a comment today where I said someone important was so far right-wing that he had become left-wing. Which I thought was pretty funny!
I’d love to know the key words that activate the moderating. BTW Liz, I am not overly prone to using foul language, when I do it tends to be specifically because IMHO ‘that person’ would have used it. Or sometimes I’ll end up in a discussion with someone as to which word, sax, sex, whatever expresses a feeling and doubt that any of Crikey’s moderators have had issues with me there.
In essence, there’s a very right-wing clown who will be familiar to you who comments a lot on green issues. Instead of saying I detest her for what she is, I should always say her politics stink-with no suggestion that she stinks all over, which she does.
My hatred for the Catholics in Oz, I admit my Grandmother and my mother, I think, were Catholic. There was an almighty scandal when my great grandfather found out that the local priest-this is back in Corsica- was taking too much of an interest in this gloriously beautiful young girl and he took a horse-whip to him. After that the whole family went atheist.
My real scorn and hatred comes from them trying to control the rest of us. How dare Tony Abbott, and/or the priests of that party tell me I can’t have access to dying went I believe it’s time to go. How dare they have struggled all these years to prevent women from having access to abortion. They purport to be pro-‘life’ but, let a woman get knocked up by her brother, father, uncle, then stop her getting rid of the thing which will destroy her. Don’t touch the idiot creature-too inbred-be born. etc etc.
Most other religions-except the totally insane ones like Steve Fielding-mind their own business and let other people mind theirs. But not the Catholics.
Clive Hamilton: Yes indeed he does want to censor the internet. And the big thing with these people is once again, they seek to tell us what to do. They say they’re only thinking about our children, but that’s the oldest dodge in the book. They want power. Individual owners of computers should be able to block subjects which are offensive. I block nothing on my machine. But I’m not looking for cruelty or sleaze. I am an adult who dislikes religion or political people telling me what to do.
Anyway, sorry for flattening you with info. I’m going to knock-off.
Lots of love,
Venise This might cop moderation as I’m using Crikey time to have a personal discussion. Sorry
JAMES MCD. I remember my Dad making a joke about the ‘institution of marriage’? ‘Marriage is an institution’ he would say, ‘but who wants to live in an institution’? At the time us kids used to roll our eyes - here he goes again, but now I think he was being sexist. My little Mum should’ve given him a sharp kick in the shins! So much for teaching your kids about the ‘sanctity of marriage’? He was a domineering control freak?
Don’t mix Fielding in with democracy! It’s an oxy moron! Just like him!
Venise, if you heap scorn and hatred on Catholics for choosing to live by their faith, you make it harder to fight attempts by a few of them to work their doctrines into the law of the land. My suggestion is: don’t interfere with them, and then you will have a leg to stand on when you fight any attempts by them to interfere with the rest of us.
GREGB : The Planet is doing fine, (Mother Nature will take it back when she is good and ready)it has been through a lot in 4 billion years, what am i denying ? I know this wonderful blue planet has been through a lot worse than what some humans have allegedly done to it in just on 200,000 years? What mountains of evidence are you now referring too? Can you trust where this evidence is coming from? Can you? Do the math GREGB we have been here for 200,000 years or so and the planet has been here 4 billion years and will be here for another 4 billion years…. we won’t be! This is where the lefty loons fail to grasp that humans at some point will become extinct just like 95% of all species that have ever lived here. Never fear it won’t happen by next Tuesday!
Thankfully people have voted in these By Elections and in particular Higgins where lefty loon nutjob Clive Hamilton failed miserably. Not even the trendy suburbs of Windsor, Prahran and South Yarra succumbed to his madness.
This fraud has been exposed and people are now starting to wake up to politicians and this insane Climate agenda at the expense of real important issues such as health, education, public transport, public safety and just exactly what are we going to do with this population explosion in the next 20 years! Enjoy the days ahead knowing the Sun will shine tomorrow and the next day, some days it will rain, some days it will be cold and yes despite the doomsayers it will get hot too.
Oh Bolly, i’m sure they’re lovely, there is no Overwhelming evidence at all, the science is not in and you know it. Who do you believe Bolly? Scientists who have fudged the figures? Oh and i am not a right wing conservative, (I voted Labor all my life until the last election when it was plainly obvious to me that Krudd would be worse than Whitlam when it comes to fiscal performance.) Am i wrong? Why is it that lefty loons always assume this when the truth is placed in front of them? As i said earlier Bolly, any deal without China, India and Brazil on board is a waste of time. Australia should not even be represented in Copenhagen, it is worthless being there. Man made Climate Change is the biggest con job ever perpetrated on human civilization. It will cost us and our children $billions (2 by the way) and they will be wondering what fools we all were as they look back at our madness while they look out at a the beaches of Bondi, Surfers Paradise and even bayside beach suburbs in Melbourne with very nice views of Port Phillip Bay that will look just the same in 50 or 100 years time. People are starting to wake up to this fraud.
Johnfromplanetearth - Actually, Clive Hamilton got well over 40% of the vote - 46% I think - that’s 10% more than the Libs have polled for a couple of years???Their vote on 2 party preferred is what? 45%?
YOu may be right, the planet may still be here in ???? years, but in what condition? How do you know it will still be habitable for us humans? You don’t know do you, nor do you even think of it I bet! Yes, the planet’s been here for possibly billions of years, and it would’ve stayed OK if it wasn’t for us. When aboriginal people were the custodians of this country, it was in a pristine condition - us supposedly superior race(as the imperialists believed)are the ones who stuff it up!
So, smarty, what happened to the coral on the Great Barrier Reef? It’s only common sense, that if we rip trees out of the ground(football stadium size, razed each day, every day) what do you think about the balance of the ecosystems? You deliberately ignore the fact, that x numbers of bird, marine and animal life has been destroyed - by us. If the oceans warm too much, there’ll be no plankton, and so no great Whales? We’re still ripping things out, allowing fertilizers and god knows what in our rivers and streams; we’re using the ocean as a giant toilet, and there’s too many people on the planet. We never learn; still keep on doing the actions that’s stuffing everything up.
You provide us with proof, that humans aren’t responsible for global warming!
JAMES MC - 9.55 PM -I don’t follow your logic! I think we’ve had this discussion before. If we don’t protest at what they’re doing, they’ll keep on doing it. It’s only protest that changes anything, not appeasement. It was apathy that allowed the Jews, gypsies, trade unionists etc to be killed by Hitler. If the people had’ve stood up to him in mid 30’s, history may have been a different story. The people in Latin America didn’t change things without struggle and protest, and being vigilant, constantly.
Oh dear. Even a Vatican gorilla as leader couldn’t put off the voters of Higgins and Bradfield. Neither could a week of Liberal chaos. What happened to the great opportunity to squash a Liberal party now led by the most reactionary elements in the country? All those urbane inner-city Liberals so keen to distance themselves from the simian throwbacks?
“Malcolm Mackerras has tipped Hamilton to knock off Kelly O’Dwyer.” Thank you and good night, Malcolm.
So are Greens the new Black? Has the AGW hysteriat finally alienated the public?
Could The Age, the ABC and Rundle all be wrong about the insignificance of Climategate? It’s scarcely been mentioned by Fairfax or the ABC. Let’s see if Rundle, high in the canopy of abstraction and far from the empirical world, rethinks the politics of AGW.
Despite the green-wash apparently Tony Abbott is the new black.
Liz, your argument seems to be that we should persecute catholics to stop them persecuting non-catholics. It’s ironic that you bring up Hit-ler as that’s exactly what he argued in relation to his enemies of choice.
Bernard writes that “the Greens appear to be the primary beneficiaries of the CPRS confrontation between the Government and the Opposition.” Dead wrong! So what’s going on at Crikey? It used to be an edifying read full of tasty morsels gleaned from a panoply of insiders plus some unique commentary. Now it is a dreary collation of opinion pieces from faded public servants, retrenched journos and wannabe spin doctors. Back in the old days when Crikey actually exposed “what’s really going on in politics, government, media, business, the arts, sport and other aspects of public life in Australia” (as per its mission statement), Climategate would have been investigated in detail. A Crikey reader based in the UK might even have visited the Climate Research Unit to ask some questions or otherwise tried to find out what was going on. In the new Crikey the whole idea that Earth Hour etc might be a bit of a wank appears to clash with the predominant ideology of the owners and editorial staff. So go on, pretend that everybody agrees with whatever you hold to be the truth, but be prepared to have your own “Oh Shit” moment when the implications of Climategate threaten to derail your arguments and the Liberal vote increases in the coming months. (And for the record I have often voted Green and voted for Rudd in the last election. But how things change!)
Black is the new Green at Crikey.
I’ve only been on Crikey since March, so I can’t say if Matt’s vision of the Crikey Golden Age is accurate, but I’ve been saying for months on Crikey that Crikey, the ABC and Fairfax have abandoned elementary journalistic scepticism on climate. I’d expect the average hard-bitten stereotypical journo to smell AGW rodents by the dozen, even when sober. The ETS, for instance, is a perfect vehicle for corrupt trading. Every spiv and capitalist scumbag will rort it. So we go broke while CO2 increases.
Today “climategate” racks up 30 million google mentions. Yet next to nothing comes up on the Age or the ABC. The only Age item was a risible op-ed by a psychologist in yesterday’s paper- check it out. When this story broke I wrote that it was bound to be exaggerated- every academic knows that peer-review, careerism, money and fame corrupt every department. At East Bumcrack, the academics behaved normally. But of course the specifics have to be investigated.
Instead Crikey and the rest have acted as apologists.
This isn’t journalism, it’s a mixture of hysteria and fear. Fear because if you’re out of line on climate, you’re dead meat. There are a lot of tightly pursed lips in the ALP, ABC etc. I wrote about eight articles for Crikey, mostly on bushfire policy, which were praised by the editors. Yet I have the distinct feeling that I’m now classed as a crank and fuckwit. That’s certainly Rundle’s opinion. Rundle, a typical member of the tossariat, knows zero about the science, technology or sociology of AGW. There’s no debate from the Keanes and Rundles, just fundamentalism.
Crikey is rooted if this sectarianism is encouraged under the new editor. The Cult not only squeezes out dissenters, it infects and colonises all topics: the real environment is currently ignored on Crikey; politics is reduced to AGW warfare.
We’ve seen the high water mark of the climate obsession. Crikey will be left gasping on the beach if it doesn’t wake up.
Incidentally, I’ve been a Green voter for the last 20 years. There are plenty like me, not just the 11% of Green voters who admitted thinking that AGW was “exaggerated” in the recent poll. That’s why it was a piece of piss to predict the failure of the Calvinist candidate for Higgins, Clive Hamilton. I want Mackerras’ job.
And I want the tosser-in-chief, Guy Rundle, to stop rolling his eyes but saying nothing when Hamilton’s name is mentioned. I still can’t believe the full tank of high-octane Marxism that Rundle began with all those years ago has turned to flat Gatorade…Come on Rundle, we want a detailed analysis of the climate cult and its simian opponents. Forget the turgid book reviews and potted histories of Sweden.
Earn your keep.
Well Frank, if I’m ever in the market for turgid, high-octane tossers I’ll know where to get one.
JAMES MCDONALD - Show me where I used the word “persecute”? There’s a big difference between being a person who opposes, strongly, stridently even, than one who persectutes. You used my words to extend and exaggerate - not fair! I’m strongly against the catholic church, and for reasons most could see, as long as they didn’t have blinkers on. Only last weekend, the SMH carried a large article, with photo, of the catholic church in Ireland, covering up child abuse for decades. Every couple of weeks, a new teacher/cleric is charged over sexual abuse of a boys college at Bathurst. On and on it goes - they’re misogynist and cover up horrific crimes of abuse. I’ll rise up against them at every turn, and I won’t acquiese over Abbott eiither - for numerous and well publicized reasons.
Hitler boasted of being a god-botherer too!
We should remember re the bi-elections, that they were held in safe Liberal seats - one where there’s older conservative voters, and probably rich people, who gained their wealth by ripping off the poor/poorer in the community. Isn’t that how capitalism works? Unless it goes bust, then the poor peoples’ taxes are used to bail it out - until next time that is?
David: a typical Sanderson post…you make my point for me.
The perspicacity of Rundle, in today’s National Times.
“Now, socially speaking, the (Liberal) ”wets” have become a tsunami. Knowledge, culture, education and policy work are at the heart of our economy and society, and its practitioners at the heart of urban Liberal seats. Their attitudes - global, networked, relativist to a degree, ideologically flexible - make them left-liberal to an extent that brings them into fundamental conflict with the current Liberal Party…”
Can’t get much wetter than Higgins and Bradfield. Even Lib chaos and simian Abbott couldn’t remove Lib distaste for Clive Calvin and the AGW cult.
Shows you’ve haven’t understood the ramifications of the “climate debate” at all.
@Frank
“Could The Age, the ABC and Rundle all be wrong about the insignificance of Climategate? It’s scarcely been mentioned by Fairfax or the ABC.”
Maybe they’re just waiting until the facts are in before rushing to call every breaking story arse-gate. The University of East Anglia has commissioned an independent investigation of the material. Watch this space.
This review will take some time to report. The report in turn will be challenged by one side of the debate or another (or both) with accusations of bias, etc, and will be further reviewed. The material is in the public domain and will be further subject to many ad hoc reviews around the world.
There will be several books published on it. Some will use “-Gate” in the label and these should be treated with the same suspicion as any conspiracy theory books using that cliche. Such linguistic techniques rely on associative logic to create prejudice and have little to offer the genuinely skeptical mind.
How long it will take to determine the significance of the material is anybody’s guess, but we should have a fairly good idea within about a year from now. Observers rushing to call a breaking story ClimateGate or BumcrackGate after only a few days are giving skepticism a bad name.
The important thing now is to:
1. Use that delay to put aside the hurry up your house is burning down haste of both Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull, who both claim there is no time to lose in banging together a showpony CPRS.
2. Take some time to develop an intelligent policy based on the assumption that AGW is real.
3. Keep an open mind, and await more facts before deciding to pass or defeat the next carbon bill.
Italics were intended to end after “ad hoc” and begin again at “hurry up your house is burning down”.
Sceptic (Oz spelling please…): What a remarkable restriction you place upon the media- here we have an apparent scandal, thousands of documents, intense public interest…and you advise the media (and commentators) to desist until East Bumcrack Uni inspects its own bottom?
I agree about “gate”. A cliche we just can’t get rid of…
James McDonald: re my dislike of Catholic (Politicians) you should have added. But of Catholics if you will.
Can you not see the your fundamental moral error you’ve made right there? If these people were axe murderers would you suggest they be given time to work their way through the issue? I would certainly hope the Vatican would act a lot more promptly than they have about the Catholic priests who molest children.
Because they are not axe murderers, but wave God around instead they are molly-coddled. Hell, they’ve only had over two thousand years to catch up with the rest of humanity.
VENISE - I’m with you. It’s been a constant source of wonder to me, since I realized what a bunch of hypocritic misogynists priests/clergy etc were, and mostly male catholic politicians, that they think we live in a parallel universe - there’s the evil monsters of the church, who abuse kids, speak with forked tongues etc, and then there’s those like Abbott and other members of the clergy - as though they’re in a different place, a different space of reality, and that all the ‘nasty bits’ are all going on - over there! Even some of my own family members can live in this parallel universe - some being quite shocked at my angry outbursts. Interesting! It’s like giving yourself a special type of anaesthetic - numbs you to the reality!
The damage they do is just short of an axe murderer - they don’t kill outright! Just a bit at a time - like an intravenous drip - the ability to think for yourself is their first goal!
I’m looking forward to journalists insisting, that Abbott gives details, including costs of his so-called solutions to climate change, and the many other ‘policies’ he’s referred to recently, and that he has them investigated by Treasury! I read today, that he’s already ‘spent’ $30+ billion to date? Perhaps more! I also want to know, which ones are core and which ones are non-core promises. I remember his embarrassing backflip he had to do after the 2004? election re health insurance! He was emphatic that it was ‘set in stone’ or words to that effect. More than just an ‘ooopppsss’ moment I suspect? A major stuffup more like it!
It is fascinating/appalling to notice Tony Abbott in his budgie smugglers. Seldom has been combined in one man, the physical and the metaphysical, a complete throwback to our cousins, the apes. Shudder, shudder!
Could someone please tell me what a skeptic is; I cant find it in my Shorter Dictionary or in Fowlers English usage.
LIZ: Marriage and religion: both institutions were invented by men to control women.
VENISE - Indeed. In fact, in the 1800’s at least, marriage only took place between wealth - to protect it. Women who weren’t self sufficient financially were seen to be unwise to marry without it - around this time as well. The strident use of ‘latch key kids’ syndrome was used when it suit - to get the women out of the workforce, and keep the jobs for men. Look at the way women were treated after the end of WW2?
Women are still seen by the Abbott’s of the world, as Ann Summers so clearly explains in her book, ‘Damned whores and god’s police’?
I’ve just finished reading Abbott’s comments to Sarah Murdoch, when she launched his book. “He praised her many achievements, particularly her charity work. Then he thanked Lachlan Murdoch for “allowing ” Sarah to launch the book!” AARRRHHH! (Herald Sun today!)
Now do some of the blokes on here get it?
Venise: “If these people were axe murderers would you suggest they be given time to work their way through the issue?”
Liz: “I’m strongly against the catholic church, and for reasons most could see, as long as they didn’t have blinkers on.”
So, are all catholics child molesters, or apologists for child molesters? Bring on the Soviet revolution then; those KGB folks knew how to protect us from the evils of religion, and from “rich people, who gained their wealth by ripping off the poor/poorer in the community. Isn’t that how capitalism works?”
Venise: “Marriage and religion: both institutions were invented by men to control women.” Ah, so you agree with Fielding that marriage is an “institution” and therefore owned by the whole community and subject to the democratic rule of the majority?
I know, let’s have another brand of authoritarianism, chosen by Liz and Venise. I take it you can assure us that you’ll choose a much nicer, fairer brand of authoritarianism than that of catholic politicians and rich people. We’ll all trust the two of you to tell us what’s OK and what’s not. Good idea?
LIZ45: There was no Labour candidate in Higgins, it was a disastrous result for this blow in nutjob, considering the bad press the Libs were getting and the turmoil of the past week Hamilton has performed poorly. The planet will be here, but who said we have to inhabit it? What happened to the millions of species that came before humans? we didn’t kill them all, we were not here. The earth has gone through so much in 4 billion years and our Sun is 1.4 million times bigger than this beautiful blue planet, do you really think we make a difference? Mother Nature will take back what is hers in due course. Humans will not neccessarily be a part of the future plan, i bet the Dinosaurs thought they were going to live forever too, 250 million years was not a bad innings! So you think there are to many people on the planet? You better write to Krudd coz he wants more here in Australia by 2050, how will our emissions cuts cope with that influx of new Aussies? How will our infrastructure cope? Instead of avoiding the real issues with this con job it might not be a bad idea if our fiscally irresposible Government put some effort into Health, Education, Public Safety, Public Transport and Infrastructure for our increase in immigration in the next 20-30 years. If you want the country to return to the stone age fine, lets all pack up and go and give it back to the aboriginals. When the Americans, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch and British all do the same i am with you. Where should we go?
JAMES - here we go again. The article in last weeks Herald Sun - not a word from Pell etc. People like Abbott never utter any critical comments re the long history of the catholic church. You are being obtuse - deliberately. And I might add, it’s not just the catholic church - the others are the same or similar. Look at the role of the churches re the stolen generations, the forgotten australians, orphanages etc. And, they’re not changeing a lot, because it’s still going on - with very little if any comment from the churches - to wit, the worst, the catholic church. Those who support the churches insist, that their so-called christian values are how we live or should live. I hate many of their values, and so do many others - the worst is their oppressive and insulting attitudes to women. If you don’t agree, say so, but don’t tell people who’ve been and still are living in the thick of it - myself, and I suggest Venise is too! You’ve lived in a ‘different universe’, everything you’ve done and can do is from a different perspective, a privileged one. Even now you want to argue against your own agreeance at another time, about the different rules etc of the sexes! You’re the one in conflict - not me. I’m very clear about what goes on - who makes the rules, and whose forced to abide by them or else - and you’re in a different place!
Also, the most impoverished people throughout the world are women - who do the majority of the work, but make up only a small number of those even given grudging ‘permission’ to enjoy it or get out of poverty. I’m not going to point out the whole bloody system to you, do some reading.
I’ll tell you one thing. If I was in a position of power, I’d certainly make it more just than in my lifetime, and I’m afraid, for the future. If you read some history about women’s perceived and real place in the world, you wouldn’t throw up this nonsense. You take a sentence or two, and then make your own assumptions to fit your own antagonistic attitude to women yourself, then you state this as mine or Venise’s attitude to everything. Go to your local library and start reading!
@Erez I am an ‘extremist right wing fashit or whatever’? You ever heard of Godwins Law, look it up. My tone is ‘extreme’? What when you have a convicted criminal called ‘Ironbar’ labelling Sri Lankan refugees ‘terrorists’ yet denying the fact that Sri Lankan refugees of ‘tamil’ decscent probaly include you IT manager, as opposed to guys who ‘represent’ the ‘working man’ even if it means clubbing Abbos in the head? Sure we all want ‘voices of the people’ but then you have to consider who these ‘people’ are and why you vote for them and their representative, or why you chose this news service and don’t pay up to subscribe to Andrew Bolt’s quality comedy hour?? Wha do you have less than a week ago Joe Hockey courageously describing the Liberal’s as a ‘progressive’ party. they were. When Malcolm Fraser was PM and introduced policies that help yours and my parents send you to that expensive private school as well as letting in lots of Vietnamese and Kampuchean boat people. But that was then and this is now and the Liberal party is an ideological toilet whose word is as valuable as the paper it’s written on.
@John McDonald. Thanks for explaining my point of view, even if I don’t understand it myself!
@ Erez and whoever else. And then you have smashing Steve Fielding go on record to describe homosexual marriage as like ‘incest’. And then come out a few weeks later to tell us all how he was molested by someone or some thing after Krudd says another lame ‘sorry’ to victims of government sex tests or whatever.
Courageous? Or Crackpot?
Johnfromplanetearth - I said it in the context, that ultra safe Liberal seats will be voted back in, like ultra safe Labor seats in NSW - although next election day might see even some of them in trouble in 2011? I listened to Antony Green, who is more knowledgeable than I on trends and compositions of different seats etc. Older people, rusted on Liberals, are not likely to change their pattern of voting after 50+ yrs. They’ve both been safe Liberal seats for some time.
As for the planet? I’m not that interested in what’s gone on a billion yrs ago, but now and the future. I’m concerned about population growth, as the most important commodity for all existence is water - and I believe that should be addressed with much seriousness. It is plain stupid, to waste it, promote or build desalination plants, while the ‘plumbing’ around my state(NSW) is in need of serious maintenance - just one aspect.
We live in the driest inhabited continent, and yet politicians are raving on about a huge population for the future. I agree with you, that it’s worse than dumb - it’s plain madness? Wouldn’t it be great if politicians thought long term, not just re the next election - both sides are the same, although the Coalition has held power for the longest time, so their responsiblities have been slack, to say the leaslt.
Abbott is talking of removing income testing from baby bonuses and family benefits? Of course, the catholic church will stick to its dogma re contraception?
If we’re concerned about asylum seekers now, what will happen in future, when so many of the Pacific nations are under water or close to it - we aint seen nothin’ yet. The discord will lead to more conflicts around the world, and nobody is taking it seriously.
Have you wondered what you’d do if you were proved wrong? Will you admit to it, or keep on keeping on? I think we shouldn’t take chances with future generations. It would be beneficial for all of us to reduce harmful pollution anyway. There needs to be a holistic approach though, and that is sadly lacking. Stop the big manufacturers spewing out more gizbos that we don’t need for example? Plasma TV’s spring readily to mind. Why are they still being manufactured? Are all homes being built with a north/south aspect where possible? Insulation of walls as well as ceilings? Double glazed windows? Film that cuts down on heat in summer via windows, and retains heat in winter? They’re great! I’ve had them in the past!
BUT, we must stop cutting down old growth forests etc and have policies on a local level that promote the sustenance of flora and fauna etc. The Greens are the only ones with such an outlook in my view. The ALP used to be better re the environment, but now they’re just as bad as the Libs/Nats! I’m most concerned, not just for the planet per se, but the little creatures - the ones we haven’t killed off over the last 200 yrs?
Both major parties are too racist and arrogant to call on the wealth of knowledge aboriginal people could provide, in finding answers to problems(like bushfires for example) and the steps to take for a balanced planet.
And nuclear isn’t the answer either. The only part of the cycle that doesn’t pollute is the reactor itself - every other facet uses energy, heaps of it, and most include the reactor require vast volumes of water - damned stupid in this country? When the costing is tallied, it should include the whole cycle, from mining to disabling, including security and transport. It will require large amts of taxpayers money, and will take yrs to build the first one. I understand, that France(I think) is having problems with budget blow outs, and the people aren’t happy with costs - the govt is increasing them all the time. We get sufficient energy from the sun, to provide the worlds’ energy needs for one year - that’s where our money should be going? If Howard & Co hadn’t almost cut all monies re R&D, we’d be further along the road by now, and the trials re solar for base load energy, could be happening here instead of California!(David Mills - Australian).
Yuval - “Thanks for explaining my point of view, even if I don’t understand it myself!”
You understand all you need to, and your words are like a breath of fresh air to me. It sounds as if your father learned the value of classical liberalism the hard way and gave you a strong grounding in it. The formal theory is not as important as a general attitude of “live and let live”.
Liz - you patronise people to “Go to your local library and start reading!”. Yet you do not understand the difference between the right of people who think differently to coexist and the power of one group to rule over another arbitrarily; you talk about human rights yet you vilify people for their religions, contrary to article 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; you condemn all members of a church or of the male s-x for the crimes of a few. As far as I’m concerned, if I had to choose between you and Stephen Fielding in the senate I’d have a hard time deciding who would do the least harm.
Liz and Venise,
Talking about readings in libraries. Mediaeval Abbess Hildegard of Bingen is noted for her wry philosophical wisdom and some remarkable music. She observed that: “…the world should be grateful that it was Eve that succumbed to the lures of the serpent rather than Adam. Original sin initiated by man would have been so strong and incorrigible, and man so obdurate, that he would neither wish nor be able to be saved.”
One might say that Hildegard anticipated research into the ‘sry’ region of the ‘Y’ chromosome and ‘irritable male syndrome’ by some 800 years.
The sry region of the Y chromosome literally struggles to survive, shut off and recombining with itself to keep up. Research on mice shows that if the sry is deleted, more nurturing behaviour results. When the sry region triggers stronger androgen and testosterone flows, there’s more aggressive, territorial, and competitive behaviour.
It must have been in the late 90s when I found a great little cartoon associated with the idea that women’s brains are like Swiss army knives, while men’s are like meat cleavers (not necessarily a bad thing when focus on a task or detail is required). Here’s an article associated with that: http://www.usaweekend.com/99_issues/990103/990103armyknife.html
Q: What do you call a man who is always tired, miserable, and irritable?
A: Normal.
Q: How can you tell if a man has Irritable Male Syndrome?
A: You ask him to pass the salt, and he yells, “Take, take, take—that’s all you ever do!”
I condemn the religious leaders etc, who don’t speak out against the abuses? Who cover them up, and make excuses, or pretend they don’t exist. I condemn the catholic church, because through its mysogynist and ‘man made’ rules re contraception, condoms etc, are responsible for the deaths of thousands via their lies re protection against HIV and AIDS - in fact, I think they’re guilty of crimes against humanity - and I’m not alone. I think they’re as guilty by telling lies about condoms, and forbidding their use, as if they put contaminated blood into people - and gave them serious life threatening illnesses - innocent kids suffer too. If you’d rather condemn me, go ahead, I don’t care really. I don’t condemn thousands to unnecessary deaths via this practice and the arbitary rules on contraception, which threaten the lives of women every day. I don’t go around preaching god is love etc, while I’m also commiting at best manslaughter. Those who are the poorest suffer the most, like those in Africa, the Philipines etc. The main reason why so many women oppose their dogma in this country is via education, in fact in most developed countries.
I don’t ‘wear effeminite clothes(priests, bishops, the pope etc) but make insulting remarks about women who practice the Islamic faith, and choose to wear the hijab, and I don’t vilify people in order to go and kill hundreds of thousands of their family and friends in other countries. Oh yes, James, I’m very dangerous - I’ve never knowingly hurt another person, and I live my life by being helpful and compassionate. I don’t use bombs and guns to kill, while I piously go to church on sundays. I’ve never hurt anyone, let alone kill them in order to steal their resources or country. Why don’t these so-called upstanding members of religions speak out against this? Apathy is a terminal disease! Only it’s others who do the dying!
Perhaps, unlike you, I’ve grown up under the umbrella of the double standards and hypocrisy of the catholic church. The nuns at school who beat me and my classmates, the priests who abused kids, and still are doing it, and the so called piousness of those at the top disgusts me. I’d probably have more respect if they at least acknowledged it and behaved differently. Nothing’s really changed -it’s just shoved under the mat until the next time someone really brave lays a complaint! It’s all lies and BS!
The crimes are not of a few, but you’d rather attack me than find out the truth - go ahead! But James, you keep on living in your land of denial, while all around you, people, particularly women are being abused, and so are kids, and the holier than thou are frequently the worst offenders. People in the public eye, like Abbott have a responsiblity to at least acknowledge reality, but he’s part of the hypocrisy, and he’s so good at it isn’t he? And his mates in the parliament are the same - Minchin and Brandis and their co-horts!
I haven’t even started on the churches money- while they have untold wealth, and they don’t pay taxes and govts give them millions to run their wealthy schools, while those in poor areas run raffles to buy library books. Oh yes, I’m real evil for having the cheek to be angry about the lot of it! It’s easier to make out I’m dangerous - I don’t have the power those lot have, and I don’t inflict BS on them to cause them misery - religions do that, and the cc is the best at it! They’ve been doing it for centuries - back when they burned women at the stake. Their whole history is one of violence. The preaching of hell and eternal damnation nonsense - particularly when I was growing up! Try getting them to take notice of the UN Declaration on Human rights, or the Declaration on the rights of the child!
I didn’t hear them protesting against locking pregnant women and their kids in hell holes until they were driven medically mad - did you, or their husbands or elderly parents? Who rose up in righteous indignation about children’s rights then or since? Don’t just use one Article James. What about Article 14? There’s one religious in my area who stands beside the ‘ordinary’ people, who does protest over these things, but he’s a lonely figure, standing by those who are oppressed and treated in a most un-christian manner, and he’s definitely not from the cc - their silence is deafening James! Not a word, not a peep out of them - it’s like they’ve been struck dumb - mute! But let the public discussion change to the disgrace of huge sums of our money going to their (already grossly wealthy)schools, and they’ll rise up in righteous indignation! Sermons given from the pulpit - parishoners ordered to vote against those heathens in govt, who’d even think of such evil things! Go online at the SMH and search the list of schools with millions in the bank, but are getting even more this year! I think that’s obscene, and the churches are for taking it! They’re hideously wealthy, and take more money in fees etc.
I’m willing to take note of the numerous examples you obviously have that are different to mine. Go ahead! Who are they?
PS. James! If the religions are so widely respected, and their ‘good works’ are so wonderful, particularly the catholic church, where are all the nuns? And why is there a real problem re priests for the future. According to the last Census, more people than ever are asserting, that they have no religion! I predict, that the cc will change its laws re celibacy and marriage - they’re good at ‘reorganising’ their so-called god given laws for the sake of expediency or something that they’ll benefit from - not women priests though - that will never happen!
Thanks to you god bothers and your dislike of one cult or another, this topic is now way off track.
Clive Hamilton’s 35% primary vote in Higgins for the Green Party.
A turning point in the history of modern Australia.
It would be a turning point if they achieved that vote with a Labor candidate standing. As Labor didn’t stand it means 35% of SFA.
Sanderson’s right, Tom. What was the choice? the DLP, the Sex party…voting was a replica of 2007. The Lib did perhaps better than expected considering she’s just another staffer heading for Cambra. Likewise the colourless Bradfield Lib. He has the charisma of Ruddock on valium, but it didn’t stop his apotheosis.
The political prognosis of the climate consensus warriors turned out to be rubbish. Wishful thinking. Just another case of Tossopolis mistaking its own self-image for reality. Rundle told us the “real” Liberals would desert the gorillas- pop sociology masquerading as analysis.
Today’s poll shows the Vatican Gorilla heading north, Rudd heading south. Long way to go, but as the climate cult wanes the gap will close. Gee thanks, Tossopolis- we could end up being run by a reactionary religious thug.
You should have paid more attention to the East Bumcrack emails.
Regardless of the circumstances, 35% primary vote for the Greens in Liberal heartland (Higgins) is a very respectable effort. 25% or more of Higgins voters had never voted Greens before and a proportion of them will stick Green, more so for the Senate.
Particularly when you take into account the Libs probably spent $500K compared to the Greens $30K. Brand Liberal, regardless of recent events it’s still very much ingrained in apethetic voters minds, but brand Green is the big improver.
@Tom McLoughlin
You’re a true believer. So I will forgive you that silliness.
But the Greens disgraced themselves. They are a joke of as a political party when they stand a loony Communist/leftist dictator as a candidate in an electorate and an election that could actually have won.
Clive Hamilton lost the Greens Higgins and the Greens choice of Hamilton has lost them credibility as a mainstream political party.
They shot themselves in the foot Tom and the reverberations will be felt much farther afield than Higgins.
Lindsay Tanner for one will be pleased that the Greens chose an high profile Red for Higgins.
If he is really really lucky they’ll run the same loon for Melbourne/Nth Fitzroy at the general election.
Sorry, Hot Collar, this is wishful thinking. All the voters in Higgins who wished to vote against the Liberals effectively had only one choice. It is beyond reasonable doubt that the great majority of those voters would have selected a Labor candidate above the Green if they had the choice.
I don’t doubt that the Greens have their brightest prospects ever in future years as the climate crisis deepens. However the Higgins result is not evidence of a sea change or even a significant surge at this point in time.
JameesK’s hysterical denunciation of Clive Hamilton as “a loony Communist/leftist dictator” is as silly as anyone would want to get.
Any sillier and you would be appearing in the upcoming BBC series “Walking With Troglodytes”.
Possum Comitatus wrote:
“The Greens have chosen a pro-net censorship, hysterical purveyor of moral panics and all round crypto-communist to stand in the Liberal heartland seat of Higgins.”
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/10/23/greens-choose-moralising-crypto-communist-for-higgins/
John Passant wrote:
“An elitist with contempt for ordinary working people – Clive Hamilton is the perfect Greens’ candidate for Higgins.”
http://enpassant.com.au/?p=5310
[Edit]
Clive Hamilton on…well essentially Clive Hamilton:
“So I think where we’re going is to begin to see a Gaian earth in its ecological, cybernetic way, infused with some notion of mind or soul or chi, which will transform our attitudes to it away from an instrumentalist one, towards an attitude of greater reverence. I mean, the truth is, unless we do that, I mean we seriously are in trouble, because we know that Gaia is revolting against the impact of human beings on it.”
“Is parliamentary democracy capable of responding adequately to the climate crisis?”
The answer? Apparently no:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/08/12/clive-hamilton-our-parliament-sabotages-our-future/
Anyone of decency on the Left disown him:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/green-wowser-is-no-leftie/story-e6frg6zo-1225806770219
‘Somebody’ obviously thinks being likened to Clive Hamilton is a slur.
I agree.
JamesK, I find it a bit odd that both John Passant and David Jackmanson in those articles take the bizarre view that Clive Hamilton is not of the Left … because he does not offer to make the working class richer. So, what does that make Lenin, who enslaved the workers in the name of the workers? No, the Left has never been about workers. The Left has always been about turning power structures upside down and imposing dictatorship on the masses for their own good.
Anyone remember Minchin’s outburst of far-right paranoia? “For the extreme left it provides the opportunity to do what they’ve always wanted to do, to sort of de-industrialise the western world. You know the collapse of communism was a disaster for the left, and the, and really they embraced environmentalism as their new religion.”
I’m all for climate action, to be done in a calm, intelligent way. But if the Greens party doesn’t throw Clive Hamilton out on the big scrap heap of the lunatic fringe where he belongs, I might have to start wondering whether Minchin is so paranoid after all.
JamesK - just to correct you on a former point (I was AFK for the weekend) I wasn’t disagreeing at all regarding H2O being the no. 1 ‘Greenhouse Gas’. However Dr Jensen’s referral to this fact was disingenuous: its the Human induced effects (ie emissions from human activities) that are of concern. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough when I wrote that he was ‘…overlooking the concept of Human induced effects’.
That’s Minchin’s argument.
Liberalism has been usurped by the Left as nauseatingly self labeled ‘progressives’.
They are refugees from the failure of totalitarian Communism like Hamilton who is both elitist and happy to justify civil disobedience to shut down a coal-fired power station saying: the “target is not the laws against trespass or criminal damage, but the failure of our governments to make laws that would see Hazelwood and other coal-fired power plants in Australia closed down in short order.”
The traditional Left in democratic societies and Classical Liberals are of, from and for the people.
Elitists like Hamilton and his echo Sanderson are enemies of the people.
JamesMcD: In attempting a shonky piece of side-stepping by trying to link me with one of Steve Fieldings daft utterings, together with completely veering off-topic you have avoided the first point I made. Namely that marriage can be an appalling experience for millions of young girls. And by marrying under the aegis of any religious ‘INSTITUTION’ can open doors to practices straight out of the stone ages.
Behaviour which would not be tolerated amongst people at large are given the go-ahead by governments because the people concerned are waving spectral banners claiming special treatment under the aegis of god. Behaviour which should not be tolerated, rather it should be investigated by people who are not in hock to any religion.
A large and wealthy group of people get all sorts of tax-free concessions by wanking about a mysterious god revealed to a writer of Sci-Fi books. Now if a group of Crikey readers wanted to install their version of god with FDOTM as being god’s prophet. How far do you think we would get? But as a society, and in the name of political correctness AND IN THE NAME OF GOD we allow our laws to be trodden on, and our humanity to be warped.
Catholicism-for some extraordinary reason-demands that its priests remain celibate. Then, not unnaturally, the rest of the world recoils in horror when sex-starved priests turn to paedophilia. Priests are not allowed to sleep with women, who are deemed to be, in some three thousand year old fairy tale, the harbingers of evil. And what priest wants to bed, on the sly, the obliging wife of the Anglican vicar, who is certain to get knocked-up when there’s a multitude of small prepubescent little boys and sometimes female children always hanging around the church and coming to Sunday-school.
The heinous crime of child molestation and torture by priests could almost be eradicated by the Catholic church-overnight. All it needs is for the Pope to issue a ‘fatwa’ allowing its priests access to marriage. Will the Holy Roman Church do this? Of course they will, when giraffes start to fly.
In the West polygamy is forbidden, unless you’re a Mormon where it’s permissible to marry off your teen-aged daughter to a uncle, or a brother-in-law or the local mayor, who might already have a wife or two. Monogamy is the law for everyone else in the community, but polygamy is just fine if you’re a Mormon.
And even in Australia the practice of removing a young girls clitoris and labia before stitching the child up again ready for her husband to break through the twine in yet a further bit of screaming agony and shameful loss of self-esteem, although illegal here, has been known to have occured.
James McDonald. Slavery is an institution, so is marriage in enough thousands and millions of people to have a man such as yourself to be so outraged that instead of writing mantras of ill-conceived ideas, you would be applying for a few visas to tackle the crimes committed against half the disempowered females on this planet.
The traditional way of dealing with “enemies of the people” is to organise a firing squad and dispose of the remains in a mass grave.
[Edit]
JAMESK - If the suffragettes hadn’t engaged in protest actions, which included tying themselves to the steps of public buildings etc, I wouldn’t have the right to vote - but I suppose that would fit in with your views? Women should probably still be ‘barefoot and pregnant’ in the kitchen or bedroom only?
The bunch in charge of the Opposition have nought to do with Menzies’ views of the Liberal Party? (who’d have thought I’d be raising this??) They should act in a truthful way, and form a Conservative Party. It wasn’t that long ago, that Minchin raised the question, that passive smoking wasn’t proven to be a health hazard? And we should take notice of him, why?
And I’ll stand with people like Clive Hamilton in preference to you every time. I’ve read quite a few articles that he’s written. As a grandmother of 3 young grand daughters, I agree with his anger against the sexualisation of children, particularly young girls? Your gingoistic nonsense belongs in the days of the DLP, not in 2009! I believe that coal fired power stations should close down too! They emit such filth into the air, that cause sickness and death to both the miners and community members. Do you live in a coal mining area? What’s the history of the people in your community?
Tell me something Venise: Do you think Mormons should be allowed to have polygamous marriages?
JAMES MCDONALD - Don’t you find it strange, that it’s only the men who are allowed more than one legal partner? Doesn’t go the other way does it? Those who follow the so-called christian norms, or even just the legal ones, get around it anyway don’t they? They just do a “Tiger Woods”? There you go? How many? 3 or is it perhaps 5 women he’s alleged to have had ‘going’ at the same time? I suppose it could be argued, that at least the Mormons and some Muslims too, have some kind of policy that would take care of all the women and kids - unlike our so-called ‘christian’ norms?????When caught out, these men just buy the women off(if they’re a tiger woods) or leave them to it! Alone, with or without money? That’s been the norm for hundreds of years James! Another little aspect of ‘christian living’! High on morals isn’t it?
Men who are users of women, come from all cultures, backgrounds and countries, of all and many ages and occupations - they just mix it up in a different manner that’s all!
JamesMcD: I can only assume that you failed to read my article in which I give many reasons for not allowing marriage at all, which is under the aegis of any religion. If women-and these are the only partner which is going to suffer from a religious marriage, all religious laws are created for the benefit of men-can aspire to have any decent treatment from marriage, she might as well enter into this state “of Holy Union???” for-armed with a bit of knowledge. Certainly the institution of marriage is not going to be adverse to the wants of man.
In the case of the Prophet a good case can be made out that in order not to have streets paved with whores, the system of concubines and polygamy at least guaranteed women some sense of self-esteem. That is the theory. However, any institution which is made for the benefit of men is, ipso facto, going to be unfortunate for women.
Basically I would like to see no religion at all being, having and/or guiding, brain-washing young people. Then, as with young Buddhist people, a period of meditation of about three months whereby these seventeen year old may arrive at which religion, or no religion at all he or she desires. Although impractical it would be of enormous help to our youth. Life don’t not allow this sort of rationality-people are hard-wired into telling other people what to believe in.
In the case of Mormons, I do not believe the issues of being forced into prostitution would necessarily be an issue. It is a wealthy ‘religion?’is it not? And the fact that fathers can marry off their teen-aged daughters to brothers-in-law, uncles, cousins, local people with money and, in many cases, men who have a couple of wives already. Such a situation does not bespeak a free choice by the young woman at all. Not to me it doesn’t.
Please understand me for once James. The concept of Polygamy does not worry me at all. What does worry me is how much say and/or pleasure in life a young woman obtains from being passed around like a parcel, without her having any choice in the matter.
It is the quality of life which concerns me. I believe a young woman has the right to see something nice about life before she is turned into another milch cow for the benefit of the men in her life.
JAMES MC - The other activity in our society which really galls me, and this just reinforces all the comments made by VENISE is the ‘giving away’ of the bride, and the custom of women taking their husbands’ names. Why were these activities commenced, by whom, and why? Just more manifestations of mens’ right to own women. It has nothing to do with or declaring love; it is soley related to the ownership mentality that is still alive and functioning not too well in our society. No? Then why do so many relationships end up in divorce and/or sadness etc?
When you acknowledge, that the whole premise and daily function of our society, is the renunciation of the rights and autonomy of women, then you will begin to understand why those women like me, who’ve woken up to the ‘plot’ have not only rejected it, but have gone on to question many other so called social norms?
My reference to reading, and encouraging or castigating you for this obvious lack of action is manifested by your attitude. IF you’ve read many articles books etc, such as ‘Damned whores and God’s Police’ or “The End of Equality’ or many others, and still continued on this your current stance, I’d be correct in thinking one of two things - you read them and rejected the views and so you deserve being challenged by VENISE and I and others, or you read them, agree with them, but still feel that you have to not speak out? Why would you do this? Only you can answer that!
In the meantime, I reject your sexist presumptions, and your antagonism borne out of ignorance of the real issues, and no attempt to understand let alone have empathy with the gross acts of sexism that is so entrenched in our ‘modern’ age? I feel really impatient with your abusive and offensive assumptions.
Accept this - you are part of the system that has created and supported, many oppressive and discriminatory views - some of which have been instilled in law, others, which are harder to change, are an integral part of those who gain by our oppression - men!
Venise - you’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this and I commend you. I respect your freedom to teach those values to your own children, and to any other children whose parents choose to follow your values. But not to publicly denigrate or vilify others who see things differently and make different choices. As long as they do not commit abuses of other peoples’ freedom, like forcing a girl into marriage against her will, because that is indeed slavery.
Sanderson first denies that Hamilton is a leftist scaremonger with autocratic tendencies despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and upbraids me for being “as silly as anyone would want to get” for pointing it out.
Apparently if I was any sillier I “would be appearing in the upcoming BBC series “Walking With Troglodytes””
Now apparently I’m a “silly old Stalinist” as well who has a predilection for organising firing squads.
Just how silly does Sanderson want to demonstrate himself to be?
Liz, I haven’t got the faintest idea of what “sexist presumptions” or “abusive and offensive assumptions” I’m accused of or what “system” I’m a part of. However I do plead guilty to having a penis (I was born with it), and to disagreeing with you some of the time (and agreeing with you other times). I have no intention of curtailing either of those. If it shocks you that the freedom of women from enslavement by men is not the only form of enslavement that I speak out against, consider the following.
If I blelieve in value system A, but the monopoly belief system is B, and B says I must live by only it. Then here are my choices:
1. Give in and live by B, and thus avoid being burned as a heretic.
2. Mount a campaign of hate against B, persuade people to destroy it and institute A as the monopoly belief system (either by public lynching or by democratic process). While hoping A doesn’t get perverted in the process, and B doesn’t defend itself by turning into an underground terrorist organisation.
3. Mount a campaign to separate B strictly from the law of the land, clip its wings, tell it that it will be left alone provided it lets others alone. Regulation of belief systems is to be made strictly off limits for the state, except to protect people’s freedom to join or leave A or B or C or D, at their discretion, without coercion, and without vilification by others for their choice.
JAMESMcD: Good God man are you totally unable to understand anything I say? I have, under the Australian constitution every right to put my views in a public place. Crikey happens to be a place inhabited by adults and my thoughts are unlikely to….heaven forbid!!! corrupt others.
Please enlighten me. My suggestion of not trying to force feed young people with religion but instead allowing them to think about their intended religion or perhaps they could make-up their own minds whether or not religion is a concept they want. Do you think the situation in Northern Ireland or Palestine could have developed into being the horror shows they became nightmares they became, happened without young people being hard-wired to believe in the hatreds and shibboleths of their parents, uncles, older brothers? I don’t.
Catholicism, Protestantism, Judasim, Islam all taking the high moral ground, all sending their children to schools where the religiousness of their parents, clans etc are hot-wired into these children. All of these religions preaching superficial peace and goodwill. I’m sorry, but to me this is mealy-mouthed horse-shit and hypocrisy of the most nonsensical kind. What they pass on to their pupils their innate hatred of the female sex, guilt, hatred, fear, bigotry and an overpowering sense of their own infallibility.
I know you god-botherers solemnly believe that man becomes good because god instructs him to do the right thing-via their ¿¿¿¿ impartial????? priests? I do not think! Do you honestly believe that man is born without decency. If you do you are exercising patronising and sickening disbelief in humanity.
Studies of different cultures, I haven’t got time at the moment to do your research for you, have revealed there is a common and humane decency from tribes in the Amazon to Inuits of the frozen north to aboriginal tribes of Africa who posses the same sense of morality as ourselves. And having spent a little time in the Amazon I can tell you what it is that poisons these tribes- people. And that is the missionaries who bring their own gods, a sense of shame, guilt, aprehension, outright fear and a tawdry exploitation of basically decent human-beings.
What was wrong with their own belief-system to begin with? How dare other religions believe their own system to be superior.
A belief in a god originated at a time before people had thought out a form of self-government and so the people wanting power declared themselves to be kings and priests. They frolicked in resorting to using fear to get people to stick to a few basic principles of life. Then hundreds upon hundreds of years passed. Kingship and the church and inherited power fast became a non event in a world where laws are passed onto us by our ELECTED governments from an early age. And we are taught to think about our society.
We are-with some criminal minds excluded-self-governing people. We make our laws, we inherently know how to behave from within ourselves, we do not have to have divine guidance. We have our own, natural moral instincts. Yet you would try to undermine my belief in my own certain knowledge that I was born with the ability to learn all these things for myself and from myself. As indeed are the majority of human beings.
When someone sees someone else about to be drowned, do you think they stand on the edge of the water having a discussion with god as to whether he/she should be brave or not?
Your fatuous suggestion that I’m under-mining the fabric of our society overlooks the fact that religions from the beginning of time have rammed their beliefs down other people’s throats. Yet you presume to call my opinions a threat to society? [Edit - please refrain from insulting other commenters]
VENISE - What can I say? How about, Amen! (I can appreciate the joke - being indoctrinated with the cc?)
JAMES MC - Should I be overwhelmed with gratitude because, you admit to”(agreeing with you other times)? And why is that? What part/s of what I say you don’t agree with? You don’t have to muddy the waters with your different examples of your male orientated views. Why do you feel that you have to go to such lengths to defend them? What have you read James? From what position do you object to what I say? What is your personal/actual experiences? How many women have you spoken to, had confide in you, learned of via media or events relayed to you? Did any of these people motivate you to read more? investigate their grievances or negative life experiences? Why do you react with such animosity, if as you say, you do agree with some of what I say? Don’t give me all the ABC bull shit, just spell it out as ordinary people, living ordinary existences.
What gives you the right, to ignore my life experiences as a woman, to run roughshod over those experiences, to once again, push your male dominated views on my reality. You’re not female; whether you will admit it or not, fact is, your path through life has been a somewhat ‘charmed’ existence by comparison, to my reality, and that of hundreds if not more women who I’ve met, read about or seen their reality through TV!
It is the ultimate act of arrogance, for a man to argue with a woman, that her reality really didn’t happen, and more than that, she’s definitely unhinged for verbalising her reality, lets not even entertain the idea, that she’d determined to change it for her descendants. Of course, I wouldn’t even consider the possibility, that she has a right to be angry, bitter, resentful that the status quo has caused her much heartache and pain. I’d go as far as to assert, that if people like you had to suffer the bull shit handed out to women, you’d probably throw in the towel - early on in the piece!
I’m convinced, Green is, indeed, the new Black…
Venise, that’s more like it. When you start using that remarkable mind of yours to construct an argument rather than simply throwing it like a molotov cocktail at all things religious, we are finally getting somewhere.
“I know you god-botherers solemnly believe that man becomes good because god instructs him to do the right thing-via their ¿¿¿¿ impartial????? priests?”
I never said any such thing. Religion is like many things in human culture, it can be used for good or evil or anything in between. I know you’re well read on the evil uses of it like the Salem trials, the Ku Klux Clan, and the Taliban’s horror show of Sharia law. You may be less familiar with William Wilberforce who, following his evangelical conversion, took on the Slave trade for 22 years in the British house of commons and won. I’ve mentioned previously the key role that Pope John Paul II played in bringing down the USSR. For millions living as slaves under the Bolsheviks, religion — Christian, Muslim, J-wish, or the older pagan religions still existing in parts of Karelia and Siberia — was all they had.
Religion can be much more than an imposed canon of ethics and a way of coping with death; it’s also a vessel for the transmission of culture, songs, art, legends, annual festivals, eating customs, family occasions, networking, and all the other precious things that bind a community together. (Actually, that’s why the Soviets cracked down so hard on religion despite guaranteeing its freedom in their constitution; religion fostered social structures outside the Communist Party. It also fostered long-distance networking across national boundaries, which allowed many J-ws to escape during Stalin’s pogroms.)
You suggest banning the “brainwashing” (i.e. inculturation) of children in the religions of their families — in effect, that means outlawing their cultures. It’s been tried before, most famously by the Khmer Rouge in their Year Zero social experiment. You suggested I should read more; can I take it you are familiar with John Pilger?
“And having spent a little time in the Amazon I can tell you what it is that poisons these tribes- people. And that is the missionaries who bring their own gods, a sense of shame, guilt, aprehension, outright fear and a tawdry exploitation of basically decent human-beings.
What was wrong with their own belief-system to begin with? How dare other religions believe their own system to be superior.”
The late president Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya put it better: “When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.” Then again, it can go both ways, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu used religion (as well as the Kenyatta quote) to bring down Apartheid.
But with reference to your own question: what, indeed, was wrong with the Amazonians’ belief systems to begin with? I seem to remember you saying all religions are evil. Do you exclude some religions from this verdict, such as the indigenous Amazon religions, as well as Australian Aboriginal nature-worship and Dreamtime culture. Or do you want to ban children from corroborrees, as well as from Sisters of Mercy boarding schools? Or if you just want to ban some religions and not others, who’s going to judge which ones are OK and which aren’t?
Religious colonialism is, I agree with you, a very poor use of a belief system. The mediaval Catholic Church devoted enormous amounts of research and a purpose-made elite order (the Jesuits) solely to finding more effective methods of soft conquest of cultures unused to such clashes of ideas, and of course this was commonly backed up by hard conquest. Disgraceful.
There are still societies in the Amazon Basin which have never had contact with modern society. After many years of failed attempts to introduce themselves to these tribes without destroying them, in a world first, Brasil has actually enacted laws such that uncontaminated tribal areas are to be absolutely quarantined. When loggers or farmers come into contact with unknown people, they are questioned intensively, and if certain tests are met, the district is simply sealed off permanently from all contact and the people are left alone. The Brasilians decided that every other option leads inevitably the destruction of these pre-Columbian societies. That’s not a ban on religion. It’s a ban on cultural conquest, including inadvertent conquest.
So I think many of your complaints against the activities of religious churches are valid. However,
(a) not only religions are guilty of these crimes, they are also committed by atheist ideologies, and by the seductions of modern consumer culture and particularly addictive substances;
(b) a ban on teaching religion to children would go too far; that would be throwing out the cultural baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
I agree with your identification of the problem. But the solution you propose is flawed, and we need to find another one.
Also Venise, most importantly of all … you say: “Your fatuous suggestion that I’m under-mining the fabric of our society overlooks the fact that religions from the beginning of time have rammed their beliefs down other people’s throats. Yet you presume to call my opinions a threat to society?”
I think we are on the cusp of an anti-Muslim pogrom in this country. And I think if we go down that road we will throw away much that makes it liberal (in the older sense of the word, i.e. free).
For example, check out the letters coming into The Australian in response to this article.
I think the purpose of Al Qaeda’s attacks on the west was more complex than GW Bush opined. The west is not their main target, just a means to an end. Their real target is the Muslim world along with its oil resources. Part of this plan is to bring about a widespread anti-Muslim pogrom in the West. This would achieve two things: (1) to destroy the image of western liberalism as a model for secular eastern nations to aspire to; (2) create an army of angry, disenfranchised, radicalized young Muslims (in a way that was brilliantly pioneered by Yassir Arafat), ultimately to be unleashed against the establishment in Saudi Arabia and other oil-rich Muslim countries.
I think they are very close to succeeding, and I believe every step we take towards the demonisation of religions and an anti-Muslim pogrom plays into that purpose and threatens, as you say, the very fabric of our society.
JAMES - Perhaps you should’ve gone to Switzerland and participated in the “NO” vote re the ‘towers’ on mosques? I can’t see the difference between the steeples on christian churches myself, but perhaps it’s time to get my glasses changed?
You could watch ‘Unconstitutional - the war on civil liberties” it’s available to watch on http://www.freedocumentaries.org The US used lies and demonising the Muslim religion to justify its bombing the bejeessuus out of 2 countries. You’re advice is targeting the wrong people. While you’re at it, you could have a chat with that racist demoniser in NSW Parlt, Fred Nile! Bronwyn Bishop wanted to prohibit wearing the hajib - nuns only showing face & hands are OK though, as are the effeminite clothes of the catholic church - again, only face & hands showed. I wonder how many clergy were checked at the world youth week publicity fundraisers? You could hide an AK47 under one of them couldn’t you?
The behaviour of Bush/Blair and Howard after 9/11 was blatantly racist and unjust. It was similar to what Hitler did before his campaign of killing jews - and trade unionists and gypsies etc!
There’s a saying, (chines I think)that the fish rots/stinks from the head! That’s where the horrific racism came from in this instance, the US, Britain and Australia!
JAMES: I wrote you a long reply but it appears to have been axed. However, one final thing about religion.
Please have a look at the shadow ministry announced by Tony Abbott today. They are all Catholics. He has even included a National Party Catholic, Barnaby Joyce, to head up finance-of which he knows nothing.
So be happy, this is a step backwards to the Dark Ages, barbarity of women, no more abortion, the whole sorry litany. Be grateful that your Catholic god is looking after you!
Venise, so I put down the most thoughtful piece I’ve written all year, and all you’ve got is something so ad hominem that it had to be moderated out in its entirety, followed by a true-to-form assumption about my motives for writing it. Your knowledge as to what creed I subscribe to or why I write what I do is about as good as your knowledge of the constitution (there is no freedom of speech provision in it). As Liz said, “targeting the wrong people”. I would do better to discuss this with my horse.
JAMES: As far as you’re concerned I can do no right. The long comment I wrote you and which was deleted was a summation of what I had written. I’m guessing it was axed because the moderator thought I had already covered that ground.
I read the article you pointed out but was unable to access the comments
You should try to realise I have other commitments besides writing to Crikey-for example it is now 1800 hrs and this is the first chance I’ve had to look at Crikey today.
I know what your concerns are but I don’t know what the people of Oz will do. I do know what is happening in Europe and would suggest you look at your concerns in the light of the world’s population explosion. Where, oh where does Europe find space for the people of Africa? America for Latin Americans and so on.
In Oz people imagine we have ten times the amount of space than we do. You must know how much of our land is desert. And the years which have been wasted by our inept politicians. It is self-explanatory. Of course people will object-ultimately about any group of people which is swamping their country. To expect Oz to be any different is asking too much.
As with the Bible, the Koran is a very old book, but as long as man attempts to build a modern life with the tools of the stone-age, so will we go under to the next lot of conquerors. One of the distinguishing marks of the Koran is the Prophet’s injunction to his believers to convert every one else to Islam.
With both sets of guide books, god-botherers have set us into the wilderness of the soul. From which there is no return. What the little Aussie hausfrau who listens to talk-back radio thinks is what the people running these shows think. And I don’t see why Australians would be inclined to an anti-Muslim pogrom just on the basis that the Europeans are about to do it doesn’t make sense to me.
Can you walk down a busy street and spot a Muslim? I certainly can’t, so why should other people be able to do it?
IMHO we cannot stop the future. And that future is here now, and becoming more so every day.
So you think the Cronulla riots just happened, spontaneously? It’s always possible I suppose, riots do sometimes happen without the help of provocateurs. But assume for the sake of argument that I’m right about the terrorist plan to radicalise Muslims by first making them outcast in the West. How logical, then, would it be to spend millions, and take huge risks, lauching the 9/11 and other attacks … and not to follow that up with a few thousand dollars for some agitators on twitter and the blogosphere? Cheap, risk-free, easy. A few well-placed voices in the crowd are a technique as old as civilisation. It would be illogical for them not to be active among us.
What’s their message? A mixture of things. Hatred for all things catholic - which the church makes easy by its disgraceful protection of child abusers - morphing to hatred of all organised religions. Fear of Muslims covering their faces. Statements from some radical Muslim clerics calculated to piss people off. Some really vicious criticisms of non-radical Muslims (such as Shakira Hussein in Crikey) for not condemning the radical ones strongly enough. Feature articles in the Australian saying “this far and no further” - I didn’t expect that from the Australian, they have sunk further than I thought possible, and they’ve followed it up with something similar today. (There are no comments below it, but a lot of subsequent letters to the editor.)
Most people voicing these views are not concious agitators. But if I’m right and they are active, they are doing very well. Osama will be pleased.
The solution is to calm down. Rage against the evil that men do, not against whatever cultural or spiritual background they may use to frame it.
JAMES: I don’t know if your latest communiqué was directed at me or not. But I have remembered the first part of the moderated ‘axed’ reply. I took mild exception
to you assuming I knew not of William Wilberforce, and absolute exception to you believing his work against the slave-trade came about because of his conversion to god.
Whereas, I take the view that Wilberforce was a great man who would have done exactly the same things, irrespective of his religion. Had he been an atheist he would have done this work.
By the time you got to waxing lyrical about Pope John Paul II for his part in opening up a part of the world to Russia and by doing so helped to destroy the USSR I knew you to be totally lacking in the balance needed to produce a thesis. Because the obvious retort to your Pope John Paul II remark is to say don’t forget the harm done to thousands of Jews, Slaves, Poles-etc by the pro-Nazi activities of Pope Pius XII, by actually collaborating with Hitler and Mussolini.
To bring up the well intentioned but farcical John Pilger to my attention is an insult to my intelligence.
I thought everyone knew Al Qaïda’s ultimate gaol was the oil-fields of Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden was born in Saudi Arabia, perhaps he hates the Royal Family of that country? More likely that in order for a world revolution one needs oil.
Anyway I found your lack of critical balance to be unsettling. No one can build a house out of only one wall.
This is my final comment on this subject.
JAMES & VENISE - I think you’re both over intellectualising the whole thing. Who stirred up the Muslims James? How long ago did it start? When were the Palestinians driven from their land by those brandishing guns? When did the West first invade Iraq? When was the first Gulf War? If anyone is to blame for radicalising the Middle East, it’s the West - the US/Britain etc and Australia is also to blame, because when these atrocities were going on, we were either with them, or remained silent. I feel really angry, that the people in the Middle East hate me, my kids and grand kids, and I objected all along. I even wrote a letter to Howard prior to the invasion in 2003 - to no avail. Those of us who protested on Feb 16 2003, were at first ignored, then we were laughed at, then we were attacked! I don’t have blood on my hands, but the bastard who attacked my stand does - Downer!
If I was living overseas, and had to watch the murders of my compatriots, perhaps my family on the TV each night, I’d get pretty fired up too. You can bet that I’d probably hate those responsible. Instead of writing your high falluting, over intellectualising nonsense, just bring it down to the basic reality - we went into another country on a lie, and we participated in the murderous onslaught that has killed 1.3 million people. We destroyed their country, poisoned their water, almost destroyed important infrastructures such as water, electricity and sewerage facilities. We closed our eyes while artifects and other historical artefacts were stolen, and we still say nothing while the US engages in horrific tortures in several jails. Don’t play the over educated, ‘I know the real reason’ bull shit! You’re only kidding yourself! Over 4 million Iraqis are refugees - 2 million within the country, 2 million have fled. Children are suffering from malnutrition, they’re also suffering psychological disorders via trauma; the women are exhausted, grieving, and spend time at the jails looking for their husbands or sons over 14, who could be locked up and being tortured!
Whatever is the reality from their perspective, we’re culpable. No amount of demonising them will convince me otherwise. The time to speak up about any causal factors has gone - we made the reality, on our own heads be it! I don’t blame the people in the middle east for hating me, but I do know who should be facing criminal charges - Bush, Blair and howard - the 3 liars who told lies, murdered people for control and their resources! The rest is a nonsense!
Calm down LIZ: I’ve been airing these same thoughts as you for years. I am entirely on your side with this.
In an effort to pin JAMES McD down I’ve gone along and indulged myself with a bit of intellectualising. For that I plead guilty.
I believe the man is a Catholic, I was going to say priest, which may be reading too much into him. I just wanted to see what he really believes in. And fighting fair isn’t in his lexicon. He’s ambivalent about women, he is patronising, widely read, and the sort of person who reads articles/books/magazines whose views support his own. I wouldn’t have put him as a genuine Crikey reader so much as someone who wants to stir for the sake of stirring. He is right wing, no matter what he pretends to be. Also he is intellectually dishonest.
But I’m fed up and tired and didn’t expect to be nailed by someone I regard as a friend because of my efforts to see what a frequent commenter is really on about.
The answer is not much. But I know I’ll not be bothered answering anyof his future comments in anything more than a superficial effort.
GOODNIGHT!
I get it Venise, when a good christian does something good following conversion, both the conversion and the good works are products of his good character, rather than conversion causing his good works. That’s perfectly reasonable.
But when an evil christian does evil works, it’s his christianity that makes him do it. There are no evil men, only men who would otherwise be good, perhaps weak, possessed by evil religion. That’s having it both ways, isn’t it?
No, you were right the first time, because there have also been plenty of great atheists and evil atheists. So religion is neither the fount of evil nor of good. It’s just religion. Some times it’s used as a great divider for tribalism including sometimes by atheists, because when atheism is rammed aggressively down people’s throats it is very much like an evangelical religion.
Pilger is not the most balanced or rigorous of journalists, but even his critics admit that his work on the Cambodian revolution was first class, atypically for him. Do you doubt the accepted history of the KR reeducation camps? The trials are underway and no sign yet that Pilger exaggerated anything.
Venise, “In an effort to pin JAMES McD down I’ve gone along and indulged myself with a bit of intellectualising”
Can I suggest, you never need to apologise to anyone for using your brain. This isn’t the 19th century, women are actually allowed to think these days.
JAMES: Agreed Pilger is excellent on Cambodia, co-written with Anthony Barnett. In fact I slammed him because I was pissed off with you.
Unfortunately for Pilger in the Middle East: No one does it better than Robert Fisk, the English legend. (Orthodox esp, but many other Jews writhe at his name. They say he is anti-Israel). His book, The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of The Middle East. +一冂八儿: London 2005.
Oh for Christ’s sake. You held up a Pope who did good as if it was an Ace. I trumped it with a better card. A Pope who was evil.
Why is it every time you tell me what a fantastic mind I get the feeling you’re having a crack at me? Also, I fail to see what brains have got to do with the price of tomatoes down at the Souk. It’s access to good books that counts.
BTW: Ever been to the Foreign Correspondents Club in Phnom Phen? Reeks of atmosphere and walls and ceilings have masses of chit-chats.
Gotta go. I’ve a load of stuff to do.
LIZ: I’ve been to Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam before they became tourist destinations. Actually I’ve been in Cambodia thrice. I think I know more about that unhappy country than anyone who hasn’t been there. I don’t need to be told of the horrors that exist there, both because of the CIA’s lovely little war on Laos, and because of the horror brought on by Pol-Pot.
So please desist from giving me lectures re: the USA’s shame, or I might tell you some of the things that a little old Buddhist Priest did to his hapless people. It isn’t pretty.
Venise, true, for every good act I can name you can probably name two evil ones. There is a pattern to them: the good acts occur when people freely choose their membership and the church has no power over them. And as you say, that choice to worship and to do good probably share a common causality rather than one following from the other. The only reason Pope JP2 was able and willing to take on the Soviet state was because he was on the outside looking in. We can safely say that not one of his followers in Russia was forced into being catholic - not one! The Russian Orthodox church, being on the inside, had to make deals with the KGB to be left alone and of course became part of its informant network.
That’s why the many mediaval wars against the Vatican and its proxies in western Europe, followed by the Reformation and the various stages of liberal revolution, were necessary to put the church in its place. Until then it was a superstate - not intrinsically evil, but a magnet for evil and ambitious men who climbed the power structure and used it for their own ends. It’s not even clear how many of them were believers.
America was pioneered largely by religious refugee communities following the Reformation. The only place in the world where a community could live as they chose, not hiding, and could trade and socialise with different groups as they pleased, on equal terms. Religious traditions served as social glue and, as I said, vessels for the transmission of cultural memes. Anyone wanting to live in one of those communities could usually get accepted in another one or even strike out on their own. You can say it wasn’t perfect and still name religious incidents, and you’d be trivially right, but these became the exception not the rule. America really did become the “land of the free” in the 19th century, long before it began its slow moral decline with the draft, the Kent State University shootings, Air America, the Pentagon Papers, Abu Graib and so on.
My hope is to bring back that idealistic era in which the Declaration of Independence was written and unnamed sculptors made statues of the Goddess of Liberty atop public buildings, rising taller than any church steeple, a torchlight in one hand and a lowered sword in the other. In some ways it’s a special time and place that’s disappeared into history, but in many ways it’s still very close, almost within reach. Anyway, you’ve asked me several times what creed I belong to, and then you assumed. Now you know.
Of course you can say it was a shit of a time for women, and you’d be right. I’m not chasing a purist vision of the 19th century new world, but the sort of idea Benjamin Franklin would approve of if you transplanted him to the 21st century, complete with all we’ve learned since then about equality of the sexes and of peoples.
Is that a creed or an ideology, a hope or a dream, sane or insane? I think you lust after the simple life of Al andalus, a knight with rose-coloured armour tilting at windmills.
¡Don Quixote lives in Oz!
You’re wrong, it’s not a fanciful dream, it’s what our federation was founded on. South Australia in the 1860s was so liberal even the Americans were awestruck. The writers of our constitution knew exactly what I was talking about. But while we’ve been learning some things - like how raw a deal we gave Aboriginals and how women had somehow got left out of the liberty thing - we’ve been forgetting other things like what made our society what it is.
STOP! I think you have both heard of my personal experiences re the catholic church. What I didn’t tell you, was that it was the fact that I actually had to ask my youngest brother(living-I lost a brother when he was nine and I was 7-he was my mate, and I looked after him-mothering taught early?) if he was sexually abused when he was at a catholic high school, being taught by the brothers. I also learned, that my eldest sister was sexually molested by a priest when she was only a young girl. Then, there was the urologist who wouldn’t operate on me to correct my bladder prolapse after my 3rd child was born(who thought it might be clever to take my bladder with him, on his very quick entrance to the world). I had to fight this bastard for 2 yrs, and I was the one who initiated seeing a gynae who thankfully was sympathetic to my cause. (I suspect that he wasn’t a catholic, or if he was, he put his patients intersets first?). I was only 25 when this happened, and I was the mother of 3 sons, and I was a lovely mum, who loved her babies to bits?
However, I’m extremely anti the catholic church, in fact, I have no time for any of the formalised religions. They’re hypocritical beyond belief!
JAMES MC You are a real stirrer. I don’t think that you are sympathetic to the oppression of women at all. If you were, you would’nt do the ‘I sympathise with you but………” Sick of that nonsense! Don’t even want to read the so-called ‘intellectual’ debate bull shit. I live it, as do many women, we don’t have the time or the inclination to listen to your patronising, paternalistic crap!
VENISE - Incidently, I’m a big fan of John Pilger. I can recall his documentary about Kampuchea(Cambodia) and I had no idea, nor did lots of others. I’ve read most of what he’s written in recent yrs, and I must also admit, that until I read ‘The new Rulers of the World’ that I had no idea about Diego Garcia? An absolutely horrific situation; such a good example of the revolting, empire building attitude of the US. It is just horrific!
When I participated in that rally on Feb 16(my youngest son’s birthday?)2003, John Pilger(I’m glad he won the Sydney Peace Prize this year - most deserved!) was the main speaker. It was awesome! The number of people there was something I’d never experienced before - and I’d been to lots of rallies I can assure you. To give an indication of the numbers - I’m a short person, and the only way I knew which way the march was headed, was to look at the banners, and observe which way they were facing? Amazing? I used up my newspaper by ‘fanning’ kids and babies in prams and strollers. They were down lower than us, and there just wasn’t enough air where they were. Pretty awful!
What really affected me that day, in a way I’ll never forget. When I was getting organised to join the march, there were two women wearing a hijab. I reached out my hands to touch them, and they drew me close and they were crying. They thanked me/us for supporting them. They had no idea that there were so many Australians who were supporting the people of Iraq! We shed tears together, and I said I’d do my best to try and stop the invasion from happening. I’ll never forget those women, and I wonder, at this time, how many of their family members and friends have been killed! I feel very much shamed!
JAMES MC - I don’t give a fig who are. I don’t care if you’re a priest or whoever? The fact is, that at best you’re an appeaser for the horrors that are happening at this time - in our name! You can muddy the waters by intellectualising a pretty simple position in my view - the US doing its empire building with a vengeance, because this time there’s oil to obtain! They’ve been behaving like this for decades that I know of! I hate the US, and I have no respect for those ‘ordinary americans’ who sit on their hands and do nothing about what their govt is raging, ‘in their name’? I have extended family members who fled El Salvador with one suitcase per person - they had only 24 hrs to get out! I know what the US has done in the past, and what they’re going to do in the future! I suggest you talk to some of these people, or the lovely courageous woman friend of mine from Chile! Another refugee as a result of the US precipitating and supporting a right wing dictator in that country - after they forced Allende to kill himself - or, they murdered him???
JAMES - You carry on with your intellectualising of these events, but somewhere, there’ll always be someone like me, who’ll call it the way it is - ‘you’re just talking s**t? Talk to some people who’ve been a result of US extremism! These are the real people - these are the people whose story will leave you speechless and unable to move! If it’s not the horror of what they experienced that moves you, it’s how they waged their fight in order to survive! Just amazing people, with so much love and friendliness? Why is that?
Yeah, actually Liz I while I respect your personal experiences (rather more than your SBS documentary world view), I wasn’t talking to you. I know what you think of me, and at this time of night I’m not even going to read more than 1/10th of what you wrote there. It’s too long and you’ve said it all before.
JAMES - My SBS documentary view? I assume you think it’s better watching one on Ch 10, or 9? The thing is, they never have any, and their slant on the News is straight out of what US policy is - on most affairs foreign anyway. The ABC had a documentary on Tues night, called ‘In our Name’. It was about torture. It was made in Australia too! It wasn’t promoted at all; I wonder why?
If things changed, I wouldn’t have to repeat myself. While things remain the same, my views will stay the same - the causes for the invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq haven’t changed, nor has the US interference in other countries, particularly Latin America! The fact is, that the corporate media dumb us down with BS television; don’t just report the news, they editoralise it - even the ABC is guilty of this. SBS is not quite as bad. If not for SBS we wouldn’t get a lot of overseas news - members of my extended family have family members in many countries - I like to keep in touch with what’s happening.
I meant TV more generally. There aren’t that many documentaries on the commercials unless you count “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire”. SBS gives you an impression of bringing the world to your screen, but it’s a very filtered, anti-north-Atlantic view. See Venise’s earlier comment. It’s not that you’re wrong, it’s just that some things seem a bit more black and white on SBS than they are in reality. It seems to me a lot of people who think the moon landings were faked, 9/11 was an inside job, America only goes to war for oil, and Putin must have been the one who ordered Litvinenko killed, have been watching too many of those documentaries and they lose a bit of perspective.
JAMES - I’ve watched documentaries re the Iraq invasion for example, and the people who are interviewed are ex?? from CIA, Security?? - hardly left wing reactionary people. The doco, “The truth behind the Iraq War” or words to that effect, has heaps of views etc by these people. ‘Behind Closed Doors’, ‘How Bush Won Florida’! There’s heaps of documentaries on http://www.freedocumentaries.org There’s some on well known newspaper sites etc. Alternet and others. Information Clearing House. I’ve read books, such as ‘The new Pearl Harbour’; ‘American Torture’ and lots more. I’ve seen ones about oil exploration for example, where the big boys in these companies state quite openly, that the US foreign and energy policies are combined, have been and will be for some time? There are unanswered questions about 9/11, and in fact I’ve just borrowed a book from the library that dispels the alleged myths about 9/11. It should be interesting!
I don’t know what you mean by ‘they lose a bit of perspective’? They can either be true or not. I find it strange to suggest, that just because they don’t fit in with your views, they’re whacky or not exhibiting perspective. It’s fact that the US has interfered in about 50 countries since the end of WW2 for instance - I don’t see how watching a video that states this fact, not showing perspective. The US in Latin America for example - they’ve admitted to Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile, Guam etc; we all know about Nicaragua and the disgusting carrying on re the Contra scandal. It just goes on and on! John Pilger’s ‘War on Democracy’, the one about Diego Garcia - I think it’s called, ‘The Stealing of a nation’ or words to that effect. That doco has conversations with the people affected, as do many of them! Some have been on the ABC. There’s ‘Afghan Massacre’ which is about the deaths? of perhaps a couple of thousand Afghanis - you can watch that on the net. I taped it several yrs ago on SBS! There’s also one about Indonesia - which states that the numbers murdered by Soharto(spelling?) could be as high as 2-3 million, not the 1 million originally thought. It was called, ‘Indonesia - the years of living dangerously’? Interviews with survivors, and people who’ve come back, and were able to tell their stories, about the numbers in their village who were murdered.
Selective truth, Liz. It’s not true that it doesn’t fit my world view; it just doesn’t comprise its entirety. America did not make the world a cruel place, but some of its well-intentioned foreign activities become vehicles for some very strange people to further their own careers. Some of the ways the US or NATO or the UN tries to liberate broken countries are just plain misguided, doing some good but on balance making things worse. The road to world war 3 is paved with good intentions.
The political messages in those documentaries have very little consistency except perhaps “everything the US does is evil”. For example the message on Ruanda was simple enough: “don’t just stand there, do something.” But doing something is not as easy as it looks, and usually results in another documentary down the track saying, “you made it worse, this is your fault.”
You would think with all those analysts and think tanks that America is this great brains trust which always knows what it’s doing, and when things go wrong that’s because they deceived us as to their real intentions. This is a common view, but it overestimates them. For example see this very interesting book How to Break a Terrorist which shows that the torture program was not only unconscionable, but basically useless compared to traditional law enforcement methods of questioning with full respect for human rights. By torturing, they threw away the moral high ground for basically nothing. I don’t need you to teach me this stuff.
I could do a deeper analysis of how America gets it so wrong so often (actually I did, years ago in Uni, and I’ve learned a lot more since then) but I don’t even know why we’re talking about American foreign policy. I think it’s just what was on your mind when you decided to give me a serve and you decided I’m some sort of Donald Rumsfeld character.
Reading back over your posts I see two different sides of Liz. There’s experienced Liz who has been through some really hard shit, and lived to tell the tale and to help other people get through similar things. She won’t stay silent on these things, and nor should she. That Liz is a hero. Then there’s the social-conscience-revolutionary Liz who watches lots of documentaries - which are usually accurate but with a consistently skewed emphasis - and who then flies into what looks like teenage tantrums against anyone who doesn’t agree with her on something. I consider the first Liz someone we should all listen to. But when listening to the second Liz I often get the feeling I’m a father being dressed down by an angry teenage daughter, even though from what you’ve said about your grandchildren you’re clearly my elder. Why is that?
Have you seen any of those documentaries? Why would people who made careers, some of them 20+ years, just open their mouths to cast doubts and anger about the leaders of their country? It doesn’t make any sense. There’s heaps of them-particularly during the Bush Administration, in particular after the invasion of Iraq. I’ve never known any other US administration that has prompted the books, documentaries etc, but particularly so-called conservative people come out and criticize them? Almost unheard of! And in this country too! Andrew Wilke was a first!
I don’t know what bubble you’ve lived in, but it’s not in the real world. Over 10 million in the world(1 million of them here) rallied in opposition to that illegal invasion. How many people from Latin America do you know, who’ve given you first hand accounts of the involvement of the US in their countries. It was an ex-CIA man(Robert Boer)who described the ‘education’ of the dictators(and the tortureres used) in those countries in the US. He saw the diplomas on their walls when he visited! Ray McGovern, who worked in the CIA for 30? yrs, said that they knew the ‘grounds’ for invading Vietnam was a lie, but they did nothing - they didn’t want to spoil their relationship with the White House??He said, that every president since upheld the lie - I think there were 5 or 6 altogether? Ex government people, in high up positions, together with legal people formed a group to expose the BS coming out of the WH, and to expose other elements that were in contradiction to the Constitution?
I don’t really care what you think of me, and I don’t need a paternalistic summation of my 64 yrs on this planet. it’s probably because, once I’ve found out about the evil and BS, I don’t have time to waste, ‘being nice’? It’s too important to stuff around with. I get frustrated by the apologists for the US, and by association, us. I can’t understand why people like you aren’t more angry by the Rudd govt fawning all over Israel, when they’ve acted in defiance of at least 120 UN Resolutions, but Howard used Resolution 1441 to justify the invasion of Iraq. Kofi Annan said it was illegal for god’s sake?
I’m in keeping with a vast number of people, not only here, but around the world, who believe that the US is a bigger threat to world peace, than Saddam Hussein was(Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell, both said he was no threat to his neighbours, let alone the US - 2001 - July?). The Bush Administration was feared and hated around the world, more than any other in history - they were driven by empire building and corporate greed - oil, gas, copper and other resources in Afghanistan, and oil in Iraq? Iran has not made any threats to the US - it’s a member of the NPT, and so can enrich uranium. I find it hypocritical of the US, France,Russia, China or Britain to carry on about Iran, when they have thousands of nuclear weapons? Bush sucked up to Mushareff prior to the invasion of these countries, because he wanted to use their airspace etc. Now they’re copping the effects of that - like they(started by Clinton, continued early 2001 by Bush admin - they finally said they’d bomb them in Oct. - they told them this prior to 9/11, about July/August i believe.) did for duchessing the Taliban for a pipeline through Afghanistan to the west for the oil in the Caspian Sea?The plight of the Palestinians came about, because Britain told the Jews and Palestinians that they had the rights to that land - the subsequent attemped genocide of the Palestinians, started in 1948 and is given silent permission by the West to continue the blood bath. Our leaders slavishly follow the US!
I’ve spoken to many women who were citizens of many Latin American countries. They are horrific stories, and some of these women have suffered from PTSD some years after. I recall listening on the radio(ABC) to reports from journalists in Nicaragua, and was in a position, where the women from Nicaragua were welcomed and given a luncheon by other women - one was a nun. Their visit was supported by the union movement. Their experiences were just terrible.
So, I just haven’t thought one day - ‘I should take up these issues, and go public?’ it’s taken many yrs of attentive studying etc; reading people like Robert Fisk, John Pilger, the diary of the young woman from Iraq(“Riverbend”); a freelance journalist who originated in my area, who was in Iraq for a few weeks before the invasion, and after! Abu Graib and the many jails in Iraq - where the Howard govt knew what was going on. The ‘David Hicks’ of many countries; the rendition policies; the torture prisons, including Guantanamo Bay and others. The British govt finally having to admit, that they allowed CIA planes, carrying kidnapped citizens of other countries, to use their airspace to take these people to torture prisons in Europe? Members of the Italian govt were sacked and charged after the kidnapping of a ‘Canadian’ citizen, who was kept in Gittmo for several yrs, and tortured.
What is there not to be angry and frustrated about? i know of people close to me who vividly recall Pig Iron Bob, who worked on the wharves during that time. Older men and women who speak of discrimination and racial abuse of aboriginal people. There’s many, many years of history re these issues, and how the US has been dominant and oppressive throughout the world. I don’t know how old you are, but maybe in another 20+ yrs, after you’ve heard, read etc horrific abuses of power in its many and varied forms, you might be pretty pissed off too! Or, you might be still making breaks for the oppressors!
Oh yes! I forgot the years as a mother, and the paternalistic attitudes of many of the medical profession. And of course, there’s the 8+ yrs of co-ordinating 2 support groups for women with occupational and preventable injuries(in a voluntary capacity, with no money - it cost me) that are permanent and disabling, and lead to other diseases like chronic and at times acute pain.(Pain, chronic pain is now considered a disease - interview I heard with specialist only last Thursday, and the article is in a science journal this month - some of us knew this yrs ago, but were demonised and at times threatened by medical people - those working for insurance companies for example?) I met and spoke to women from many different nationalities; they came from diverse and varied cultures, including women from the middle east, Latin America, Vietnam etc! You should’ve heard their experiences re sexism, racism etc - make your (naive & narrow)hair curl? I’ve met some of the best bullies in the business!
Yeah all right, whatever. I should have remembered, never come between a zealot and his black-and-white world. We weren’t even discussing America, Venise and I were continuing a discussion on religious proselytizing that we’d promised ourselves, when you took over with your own proselytizing and drowned everything else out.
America’s finest postwar president said at his inauguration, “There is nothing wrong with America that can’t be fixed by what is right with America”. A profound truth, which was too soon forgotten as if it were just a fine-sounding jingo. Meanwhile the stream of frothing-at-the-mouth invective from zealots like you added exactly nothing to the search for a wiser regime. Consequently those problems are all still there. But this is really throwing pearls before swine now, as it appears no rational discussion with you is possible. Over and out. I won’t be reading or replying on this thread again.