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	<title>Comments on: Kiwis voting system to go to referendum</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: mike f.</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-49641</link>
		<dc:creator>mike f.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 05:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-49641</guid>
		<description>First of all, New Zealand isn&#039;t going to ditch MMP; New Zealanders will regard STV as a too-complicated way to produce the same results as a list-based system. They&#039;ll reject MMM as an attempt to pull a swifty, and the Australian lower house system as completely out of the question. 

And here&#039;s why. I want Green MPs. And thanks to my electoral system, I got them. Nine of them. Under the Australian system, what I get told instead is, &quot;your vote didn&#039;t count! What of the other party would you give your vote to?&quot;. And then, suddenly, instead of getting the MPs that I wanted, I get my vote sucked into a system that results in my vote electing someone from the Labour party. But, and I think this is pretty important: &lt;i&gt;if I wanted Labour MPs, I would have voted for the Labour Party&lt;/i&gt;. 

Essentially, the Australian system is designed to make people go through a list of things they don&#039;t want, and choose one; so instead of getting what I want, which is a Labour Party that has to listen to and deal with a bloc to the left of it, I get what I really don&#039;t want, especially considering that our parliament is unicameral: an outright Labour majority. 

And, as for MMM (which is being referred to as &#039;supplementary member&#039; here), that&#039;s a nothing system.  It means that our number one gripe with first-past-the-post is still in play. It means that someone with 42% of the vote can form a majority government, because they did something arbitrary. In this case, that arbitrary thing is win a majority, no matter small, in enough geographic constituencies. The MP for New Plymouth has a majority of 108. And the MP for Waitakere has a majority of 300. In fact, several MPs have small majorities; a lot of them belong to the National Party, and are why they won 40 out of 70 electorates. Now, with 42% of list votes, National can get the 21/50 seats it needs to have 61/120 and a majority administration; this in the name of proportionality or fairness! Some of our most hated FPP governments formed administrations on larger shares of the vote. 

As for the lack of one-off preferential choice in the 2011 referendum, that&#039;s the right thing to do. Changing your electoral system is a big undertaking, and maybe we should have some time to chew things over. That way, we can make sure that they thing we actually wants wins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, New Zealand isn&#8217;t going to ditch MMP; New Zealanders will regard STV as a too-complicated way to produce the same results as a list-based system. They&#8217;ll reject MMM as an attempt to pull a swifty, and the Australian lower house system as completely out of the question. </p>
<p>And here&#8217;s why. I want Green MPs. And thanks to my electoral system, I got them. Nine of them. Under the Australian system, what I get told instead is, &#8220;your vote didn&#8217;t count! What of the other party would you give your vote to?&#8221;. And then, suddenly, instead of getting the MPs that I wanted, I get my vote sucked into a system that results in my vote electing someone from the Labour party. But, and I think this is pretty important: <i>if I wanted Labour MPs, I would have voted for the Labour Party</i>. </p>
<p>Essentially, the Australian system is designed to make people go through a list of things they don&#8217;t want, and choose one; so instead of getting what I want, which is a Labour Party that has to listen to and deal with a bloc to the left of it, I get what I really don&#8217;t want, especially considering that our parliament is unicameral: an outright Labour majority. </p>
<p>And, as for MMM (which is being referred to as &#8216;supplementary member&#8217; here), that&#8217;s a nothing system.  It means that our number one gripe with first-past-the-post is still in play. It means that someone with 42% of the vote can form a majority government, because they did something arbitrary. In this case, that arbitrary thing is win a majority, no matter small, in enough geographic constituencies. The MP for New Plymouth has a majority of 108. And the MP for Waitakere has a majority of 300. In fact, several MPs have small majorities; a lot of them belong to the National Party, and are why they won 40 out of 70 electorates. Now, with 42% of list votes, National can get the 21/50 seats it needs to have 61/120 and a majority administration; this in the name of proportionality or fairness! Some of our most hated FPP governments formed administrations on larger shares of the vote. </p>
<p>As for the lack of one-off preferential choice in the 2011 referendum, that&#8217;s the right thing to do. Changing your electoral system is a big undertaking, and maybe we should have some time to chew things over. That way, we can make sure that they thing we actually wants wins.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk Broadhurst</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-45764</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk Broadhurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-45764</guid>
		<description>Our system isn&#039;t the worst, but it&#039;s hardly the best.  I&#039;d much prefer a NZ (or German) style system where minority views can contribute to Government.  

I have 12 representatives for my state who are essentially useless stooges for their respective parties, and I have one local member who less than 40% of my community picked as first choice.  Who is my local champion?  A proportional system ensures that other voices are heard, and keeps us away from the dreaded 2-party system.

Transferrable vote is hardly the &#039;fairest all round&#039;.  The National Party regularly poll less than 5% support across the nation, yet have 9 seats in the House of Reps.  The Greens, on the other hand, poll closer to 10% across the nation (and have consistently more support than the Nationals) - yet have the princely sum of zero seats.  Family First poll around 2-3% yet also have zero seats.  I know that the Senate is supposed to resolve this issue, but unfortunately we only have 6 states in the country.

Proportional Representation is the only &#039;fair&#039; way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our system isn&#8217;t the worst, but it&#8217;s hardly the best.  I&#8217;d much prefer a NZ (or German) style system where minority views can contribute to Government.  </p>
<p>I have 12 representatives for my state who are essentially useless stooges for their respective parties, and I have one local member who less than 40% of my community picked as first choice.  Who is my local champion?  A proportional system ensures that other voices are heard, and keeps us away from the dreaded 2-party system.</p>
<p>Transferrable vote is hardly the &#8216;fairest all round&#8217;.  The National Party regularly poll less than 5% support across the nation, yet have 9 seats in the House of Reps.  The Greens, on the other hand, poll closer to 10% across the nation (and have consistently more support than the Nationals) - yet have the princely sum of zero seats.  Family First poll around 2-3% yet also have zero seats.  I know that the Senate is supposed to resolve this issue, but unfortunately we only have 6 states in the country.</p>
<p>Proportional Representation is the only &#8216;fair&#8217; way.</p>
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		<title>By: New Cassandra</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-45743</link>
		<dc:creator>New Cassandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-45743</guid>
		<description>Stick to the best system in the world - ours! - Full preferential voting - this way the least unpopular candidate wins - which is the fairest all round result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stick to the best system in the world - ours! - Full preferential voting - this way the least unpopular candidate wins - which is the fairest all round result.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk Broadhurst</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-45645</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk Broadhurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/13/kiwis-voting-system-to-go-to-referendum/#comment-45645</guid>
		<description>Surely if there were three options, and I chose Single Transferable Vote, then I&#039;d be able to allocate my second and third preference from the other options.

Similarly, if I chose Mixed Member Majoritarian I&#039;d be able to allocate &#039;some&#039; of my vote to MMM and &#039;some&#039; of it to another option...?

And anyone who chooses FPP doesn&#039;t get to allocate any second preference at all.  Perfect!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely if there were three options, and I chose Single Transferable Vote, then I&#8217;d be able to allocate my second and third preference from the other options.</p>
<p>Similarly, if I chose Mixed Member Majoritarian I&#8217;d be able to allocate &#8216;some&#8217; of my vote to MMM and &#8216;some&#8217; of it to another option&#8230;?</p>
<p>And anyone who chooses FPP doesn&#8217;t get to allocate any second preference at all.  Perfect!</p>
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