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	<title>Comments on: Copenhagen reality check #1: 25% by 2020 isn&#8217;t in the ball park</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44182</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44182</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;If you can keep your head while others are losing theirs, then perhaps you have misjudged the situation.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
- C.S. Friedman)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>If you can keep your head while others are losing theirs, then perhaps you have misjudged the situation.&#8221;</i><br />
- C.S. Friedman)</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh (Charlie) McColl</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44111</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh (Charlie) McColl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44111</guid>
		<description>The world seems to have divided into two camps.  Those who are willing to start doing whatever it takes right now, immediately, regardless of the personal or communal pain. This might be what Scott calls the environmental movement. Then there is the other camp. The other camp is not willing to do anything just yet.  It might do something tomorrow, maybe, or after Copenhagen maybe, or when some of its number are finally convinced next year or next decade or when the waves start breaking on the front lawn.  It contains those who are concerned about what will happen to the world economy, the next election, the housing market, employment, the cricket, the poor and just about every other cause or effect that is out there (out here).  It&#039;s a pretty big camp including every single person who is not willing to start doing whatever it takes beginning immediately, right now, today.  It also includes every sceptic, denier, wingnut or ratbag and all those hangers-on who don&#039;t know where they stand, don&#039;t want to stand up and aren&#039;t willing to join the &quot;environmental movement&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The world seems to have divided into two camps.  Those who are willing to start doing whatever it takes right now, immediately, regardless of the personal or communal pain. This might be what Scott calls the environmental movement. Then there is the other camp. The other camp is not willing to do anything just yet.  It might do something tomorrow, maybe, or after Copenhagen maybe, or when some of its number are finally convinced next year or next decade or when the waves start breaking on the front lawn.  It contains those who are concerned about what will happen to the world economy, the next election, the housing market, employment, the cricket, the poor and just about every other cause or effect that is out there (out here).  It&#8217;s a pretty big camp including every single person who is not willing to start doing whatever it takes beginning immediately, right now, today.  It also includes every sceptic, denier, wingnut or ratbag and all those hangers-on who don&#8217;t know where they stand, don&#8217;t want to stand up and aren&#8217;t willing to join the &#8220;environmental movement&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: David Spratt</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44110</link>
		<dc:creator>David Spratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44110</guid>
		<description>Hey Scott, since when is peer-viewed science &quot;shock tactics&quot;?  It&#039;s simply what we have to do to achieve what the politicians say there want to do: keep warming to 2 degrees. Now the best promises of all governments around the world at present, if implemented,  will mean warming of 3.5 degrees, so the current debate is delusional. At least we have the right to know that. And 2 degrees in the end will probably wipe out most of us and most species over time. That&#039;s not shock tactics either, just a sober assessment of where we are and where we appear to be going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Scott, since when is peer-viewed science &#8220;shock tactics&#8221;?  It&#8217;s simply what we have to do to achieve what the politicians say there want to do: keep warming to 2 degrees. Now the best promises of all governments around the world at present, if implemented,  will mean warming of 3.5 degrees, so the current debate is delusional. At least we have the right to know that. And 2 degrees in the end will probably wipe out most of us and most species over time. That&#8217;s not shock tactics either, just a sober assessment of where we are and where we appear to be going.</p>
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		<title>By: whatiris</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44035</link>
		<dc:creator>whatiris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44035</guid>
		<description>@Scott - Problem is, what I&#039;m saying is that not only is it probably too late to avoid very severe economic effects through timely mitigation but that we lack the will even to acknowledge that this is the case.

What the scientists are saying when they outline savage cuts necessary to avoid significant climate change is &quot;here&#039;s how we could avoid really serious climate change.&quot; They&#039;re also implicitly saying &quot;if we&#039;re not prepared to make those cuts, we&#039;d better start thinking about the consequences.&quot;

Unfortunately at present we&#039;re considering neither the cuts nor the consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Scott - Problem is, what I&#8217;m saying is that not only is it probably too late to avoid very severe economic effects through timely mitigation but that we lack the will even to acknowledge that this is the case.</p>
<p>What the scientists are saying when they outline savage cuts necessary to avoid significant climate change is &#8220;here&#8217;s how we could avoid really serious climate change.&#8221; They&#8217;re also implicitly saying &#8220;if we&#8217;re not prepared to make those cuts, we&#8217;d better start thinking about the consequences.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unfortunately at present we&#8217;re considering neither the cuts nor the consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44032</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44032</guid>
		<description>Yep, I agree with the comments listed above. The environmental movement do themselves no favours when they hit the &quot;Oh my god&quot; button. Shock tactics don&#039;t work in the boardrooms and parliaments of the world. For any meaningful plan to successfully mitigate climate change, they need the US  (and to a lesser extent, Australia) to be part of it. By coming up with reduction figures that would destroy the economy of the US (and by proxy, the rest of us), they remove themselves from any real debate. Yes the world might be doomed, but it might not be as well. Lets get a plan together that doesn&#039;t begger us all and starts the long gradual process of removing carbon emissions from the atmosphere..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, I agree with the comments listed above. The environmental movement do themselves no favours when they hit the &#8220;Oh my god&#8221; button. Shock tactics don&#8217;t work in the boardrooms and parliaments of the world. For any meaningful plan to successfully mitigate climate change, they need the US  (and to a lesser extent, Australia) to be part of it. By coming up with reduction figures that would destroy the economy of the US (and by proxy, the rest of us), they remove themselves from any real debate. Yes the world might be doomed, but it might not be as well. Lets get a plan together that doesn&#8217;t begger us all and starts the long gradual process of removing carbon emissions from the atmosphere..</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Angelo</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44015</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44015</guid>
		<description>I agree with Whatiris. Having reviewed the current draft of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCC) otherwise known as the Copenhagen Treaty I have some misgivings about potential commitments from both a financial and governance perspective. 

The draft treaty states in part that “the Conference of the Parties serving as the Meeting of the Parties”... “shall appoint a board” to manage the financial mechanism and the related facilitative mechanism”.  The document goes on to state  that “Mandatory contributions from developed country Parties and other developed Parties ... “should form the core revenue stream for meeting the cost of adaptation”, ... and that “Assessed contributions of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country Parties” shall be payable, “taking into account historical contribution to concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere”.

Signing the treaty in its current form would commit $7 billion per annum to an unelected body with countries like Zimbabwe and North Korea having equal votes whilst contributing virtually nothing. What is the Government&#039;s position on this matter? I am struggling to find any concrete reference to Australia&#039;s position and would like to know where  Kevin Rudd and Penny Wong propose to position us in relation to Copenhagen.

Of  course the 7 billion is in addition to the cost and the ETS or any other carbon reduction proposals within the country. Whether one is a  climate control advocate or sceptic, we need to know both the numbers and the governance processes associated with these proposals. 

It is quite obvious that any carbon permit trading scheme involving Third World jurisdictions will be a governance nightmare, with the potential for an unholy alliance of carpetbaggers and corrupt Third World governments to create a situation wors than the GFC. 

Furthermore the taxpayers and consumers of Australia have not being acquainted with the long term impact on their standard of living of any carbon reduction proposals as politicians on both sides are in denial concerning the eventual impact. I await further developments with interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Whatiris. Having reviewed the current draft of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCC) otherwise known as the Copenhagen Treaty I have some misgivings about potential commitments from both a financial and governance perspective. </p>
<p>The draft treaty states in part that “the Conference of the Parties serving as the Meeting of the Parties”&#8230; “shall appoint a board” to manage the financial mechanism and the related facilitative mechanism”.  The document goes on to state  that “Mandatory contributions from developed country Parties and other developed Parties &#8230; “should form the core revenue stream for meeting the cost of adaptation”, &#8230; and that “Assessed contributions of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country Parties” shall be payable, “taking into account historical contribution to concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere”.</p>
<p>Signing the treaty in its current form would commit $7 billion per annum to an unelected body with countries like Zimbabwe and North Korea having equal votes whilst contributing virtually nothing. What is the Government&#8217;s position on this matter? I am struggling to find any concrete reference to Australia&#8217;s position and would like to know where  Kevin Rudd and Penny Wong propose to position us in relation to Copenhagen.</p>
<p>Of  course the 7 billion is in addition to the cost and the ETS or any other carbon reduction proposals within the country. Whether one is a  climate control advocate or sceptic, we need to know both the numbers and the governance processes associated with these proposals. </p>
<p>It is quite obvious that any carbon permit trading scheme involving Third World jurisdictions will be a governance nightmare, with the potential for an unholy alliance of carpetbaggers and corrupt Third World governments to create a situation wors than the GFC. </p>
<p>Furthermore the taxpayers and consumers of Australia have not being acquainted with the long term impact on their standard of living of any carbon reduction proposals as politicians on both sides are in denial concerning the eventual impact. I await further developments with interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Angelo</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44013</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44013</guid>
		<description>I agree with Whatiris. Having reviewed the current draft of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCC) otherwise known as the Copenhagen Treaty I have some misgivings about potential commitments from both a financial and governance perspective. 

The draft treaty states in part that “the Conference of the Parties serving as the Meeting of the Parties”... “shall appoint a board” to manage the financial mechanism and the related facilitative mechanism”.  The document goes on to state  that “Mandatory contributions from developed country Parties and other developed Parties ... “should form the core revenue stream for meeting the cost of adaptation”, ... and that “Assessed contributions of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country Parties” shall be payable, “taking into account historical contribution to concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere”.

Signing the treaty in its current form would commit $7 billion per annum to an unelected body with countries like Zimbabwe and North Korea having equal votes whilst contributing virtually nothing. What is the Government&#039;s position on this matter? I am struggling to find any concrete reference to Australia&#039;s position and would like to know where  Kevin Rudd and Penny Wong propose to position us in relation to Copenhagen.

Of  course the 7 billion is in addition to the cost and the ETS or any other carbon reduction proposals within the country. Whether one a the climate control advocate or sceptic, we need to know both the numbers and the governance processes associated with these proposals. 

It is quite obvious that any carbon permit trading scheme involving Third World jurisdictions will be a governance nightmare, with the potential for an unholy alliance of carpetbaggers and corrupt Third World governments to create a situation worsen the GFC. 

Furthermore the taxpayers and consumers of Australia have not being acquainted with the long term impact on their standard of living of any carbon reduction proposals as politicians on both sides are in denial concerning the eventual impact. I await further developments with interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Whatiris. Having reviewed the current draft of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCC) otherwise known as the Copenhagen Treaty I have some misgivings about potential commitments from both a financial and governance perspective. </p>
<p>The draft treaty states in part that “the Conference of the Parties serving as the Meeting of the Parties”&#8230; “shall appoint a board” to manage the financial mechanism and the related facilitative mechanism”.  The document goes on to state  that “Mandatory contributions from developed country Parties and other developed Parties &#8230; “should form the core revenue stream for meeting the cost of adaptation”, &#8230; and that “Assessed contributions of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country Parties” shall be payable, “taking into account historical contribution to concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere”.</p>
<p>Signing the treaty in its current form would commit $7 billion per annum to an unelected body with countries like Zimbabwe and North Korea having equal votes whilst contributing virtually nothing. What is the Government&#8217;s position on this matter? I am struggling to find any concrete reference to Australia&#8217;s position and would like to know where  Kevin Rudd and Penny Wong propose to position us in relation to Copenhagen.</p>
<p>Of  course the 7 billion is in addition to the cost and the ETS or any other carbon reduction proposals within the country. Whether one a the climate control advocate or sceptic, we need to know both the numbers and the governance processes associated with these proposals. </p>
<p>It is quite obvious that any carbon permit trading scheme involving Third World jurisdictions will be a governance nightmare, with the potential for an unholy alliance of carpetbaggers and corrupt Third World governments to create a situation worsen the GFC. </p>
<p>Furthermore the taxpayers and consumers of Australia have not being acquainted with the long term impact on their standard of living of any carbon reduction proposals as politicians on both sides are in denial concerning the eventual impact. I await further developments with interest.</p>
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		<title>By: whatiris</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44002</link>
		<dc:creator>whatiris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/04/copenhagen-reality-check-1-25-by-2020-isnt-in-the-ball-park/#comment-44002</guid>
		<description>Does anyone really seriously think, considering our current political behaviour, that we will have any chance at all of keeping temperature rise below 2 degrees? Or 4?

As much as I dearly want action to be taken, I can&#039;t even see us making 15% cuts by 2020 let alone 25% ... let alone 100%.

We need to start modeling and planning for how to cope with large global temperature change as well as doing our damnedest to cut our emissions. I can&#039;t say I can see many politicians coming out in favour of such planning though, more&#039;s the pity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone really seriously think, considering our current political behaviour, that we will have any chance at all of keeping temperature rise below 2 degrees? Or 4?</p>
<p>As much as I dearly want action to be taken, I can&#8217;t even see us making 15% cuts by 2020 let alone 25% &#8230; let alone 100%.</p>
<p>We need to start modeling and planning for how to cope with large global temperature change as well as doing our damnedest to cut our emissions. I can&#8217;t say I can see many politicians coming out in favour of such planning though, more&#8217;s the pity.</p>
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