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	<title>Comments on: Qantas 767 aborts 700 feet above tarmac and wheels up</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Bullmore's Ghost</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-44952</link>
		<dc:creator>Bullmore's Ghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 06:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-44952</guid>
		<description>The way things are going, their new slogan ought to be: &quot;QANTAS - it&#039;s only a matter of time.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way things are going, their new slogan ought to be: &#8220;QANTAS - it&#8217;s only a matter of time.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: SBH</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-44622</link>
		<dc:creator>SBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-44622</guid>
		<description>Thanks Andy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andy</p>
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		<title>By: Andy F</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-44458</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-44458</guid>
		<description>Greg and Ben - Wrong.

Read the report again.
The PILOTS recognised the error and initiated a go-around BEFORE the aural warning. 
It was due to the &#039;sink&#039; that normally occurs during a go-around that the warning still sounded.

Yes the gear should have normally been down by then and the investigation should establish why it wasn&#039;t.

SBH, a 767 would normally be doing 700 ft per minute descent rate so they were about 60 secs from the runway.
Go-arounds are routinely practised from 200 ft, simulating not being able to land from an instrument approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg and Ben - Wrong.</p>
<p>Read the report again.<br />
The PILOTS recognised the error and initiated a go-around BEFORE the aural warning.<br />
It was due to the &#8216;sink&#8217; that normally occurs during a go-around that the warning still sounded.</p>
<p>Yes the gear should have normally been down by then and the investigation should establish why it wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>SBH, a 767 would normally be doing 700 ft per minute descent rate so they were about 60 secs from the runway.<br />
Go-arounds are routinely practised from 200 ft, simulating not being able to land from an instrument approach.</p>
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		<title>By: SBH</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43991</link>
		<dc:creator>SBH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43991</guid>
		<description>Ben

I know enough about planes to know that throttles don’t need virus protection but I have trouble putting the 700 feet bit in context.  700 feet is about 200 meters and I’m in an office building that’s about that tall.  There would be, I guess a couple of dozen buildings this tall in each city.  As it’s cup week punters will know that the home straight at Flemington is about twice that long.  Laid out flat 200 meters doesn’t seem very large.

The east west flight path has to come in long to get over the humps of Hurstville, Rockdale and finally Arncliffe.  The North South not so much.  We lived at Rockdale and based on the height of my office block, planes were at about the 200 meter mark when they passed over head, maybe a bit lower.  Rockdale is about a minute or two flying time from KSA.

For context are you able to tell us how far away from the airport the 767 would have been and how much flight time was left?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben</p>
<p>I know enough about planes to know that throttles don’t need virus protection but I have trouble putting the 700 feet bit in context.  700 feet is about 200 meters and I’m in an office building that’s about that tall.  There would be, I guess a couple of dozen buildings this tall in each city.  As it’s cup week punters will know that the home straight at Flemington is about twice that long.  Laid out flat 200 meters doesn’t seem very large.</p>
<p>The east west flight path has to come in long to get over the humps of Hurstville, Rockdale and finally Arncliffe.  The North South not so much.  We lived at Rockdale and based on the height of my office block, planes were at about the 200 meter mark when they passed over head, maybe a bit lower.  Rockdale is about a minute or two flying time from KSA.</p>
<p>For context are you able to tell us how far away from the airport the 767 would have been and how much flight time was left?</p>
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		<title>By: bakerboy</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43920</link>
		<dc:creator>bakerboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43920</guid>
		<description>I see a number of either uninformed or apologist contributions here. Haven&#039;t any of you &#039;so where&#039;s the problem?&#039; contributors ever flown in a commercial jet?  Wheels are normally down well above 1500 ft if correct procedures are followed. That&#039;s why they have checklists, that&#039;s why they have two pilots. I saw a few wheels up incidents during my RAAF career but civilian RPT aviation is another matter. The pilots should be sacked - there are plenty more looking for a cushy job with Qantas.  Alex</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see a number of either uninformed or apologist contributions here. Haven&#8217;t any of you &#8216;so where&#8217;s the problem?&#8217; contributors ever flown in a commercial jet?  Wheels are normally down well above 1500 ft if correct procedures are followed. That&#8217;s why they have checklists, that&#8217;s why they have two pilots. I saw a few wheels up incidents during my RAAF career but civilian RPT aviation is another matter. The pilots should be sacked - there are plenty more looking for a cushy job with Qantas.  Alex</p>
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		<title>By: Paulg</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43910</link>
		<dc:creator>Paulg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43910</guid>
		<description>Ben Jaensch. I understand from above article, and also from ATSB extract, that the go around was initiated before the aural GPWS warning sounded. I fail to see a serious safety issue here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Jaensch. I understand from above article, and also from ATSB extract, that the go around was initiated before the aural GPWS warning sounded. I fail to see a serious safety issue here.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Jaensch</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43908</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jaensch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43908</guid>
		<description>&quot;No flight safety issue&quot;????

I challenge a pilot from Qantas to say that on record, as opposed to someone from the spin dept who has just had Ground Proximity Warning System explained to them this morning.

While the GPWS did a job and prevented an accident It is a very serious issue when the very last layer of defence catches the crew before an accident. This is the case when GPWS, TCAS or PWS catches an unsafe condition that the crew have missed.

TCAS is Traffic Collision Avoidance System and PWS is Predictive Windshear System, which like GPWS use vocal warning to alert pilots of unsafe situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>No flight safety issue&#8221;????</p>
<p>I challenge a pilot from Qantas to say that on record, as opposed to someone from the spin dept who has just had Ground Proximity Warning System explained to them this morning.</p>
<p>While the GPWS did a job and prevented an accident It is a very serious issue when the very last layer of defence catches the crew before an accident. This is the case when GPWS, TCAS or PWS catches an unsafe condition that the crew have missed.</p>
<p>TCAS is Traffic Collision Avoidance System and PWS is Predictive Windshear System, which like GPWS use vocal warning to alert pilots of unsafe situations.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Reeves</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43907</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Reeves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43907</guid>
		<description>Paul seems to have got in before my post and answered my question - thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul seems to have got in before my post and answered my question - thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Reeves</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43904</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Reeves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43904</guid>
		<description>No Stilgherrian, I would assume they are meant to land with the wheels actually down. I am ignorant to most things aeronautical but agree with Greg - this seems like a pretty fundamental mistake. Is it common Peter - is that what you are suggesting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Stilgherrian, I would assume they are meant to land with the wheels actually down. I am ignorant to most things aeronautical but agree with Greg - this seems like a pretty fundamental mistake. Is it common Peter - is that what you are suggesting?</p>
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		<title>By: Paulg</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43901</link>
		<dc:creator>Paulg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43901</guid>
		<description>There are  only two types of pilot. Those who have attempted to land gear up in the past and those who have not done so yet. 

In this case no big deal. Safely detected missed check list item at 700&#039; and initiated go around even before aural warning sounded.  Pilots acted in accordance with their training. No actual danger to aircraft or passengers. Why bag Qantas over this? What is the agenda here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are  only two types of pilot. Those who have attempted to land gear up in the past and those who have not done so yet. </p>
<p>In this case no big deal. Safely detected missed check list item at 700&#8217; and initiated go around even before aural warning sounded.  Pilots acted in accordance with their training. No actual danger to aircraft or passengers. Why bag Qantas over this? What is the agenda here?</p>
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		<title>By: peter obrien</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43892</link>
		<dc:creator>peter obrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43892</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s why we practice go-arounds,  as for gear up landings.....there are them that have and them that haven&#039;t........... yet

Seriously, the system worked!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s why we practice go-arounds,  as for gear up landings&#8230;..there are them that have and them that haven&#8217;t&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. yet</p>
<p>Seriously, the system worked!</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43882</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43882</guid>
		<description>An aircraft is on final approach and the cockpit crew realise that something on the checklist has been missed -- for whatever reason -- so they abort and go around again. Isn&#039;t this what&#039;s meant to happen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An aircraft is on final approach and the cockpit crew realise that something on the checklist has been missed&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;for whatever reason&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;so they abort and go around again. Isn&#8217;t this what&#8217;s meant to happen?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Angelo</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43878</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/03/qantas-767-aborts-700-feet-above-tarmac-and-wheels-up/#comment-43878</guid>
		<description>It is my understanding that the standard cockpit procedures in relation to landing at airports, (or any other location for that matterother than ditching in the water) require wheels to be down. Perhaps the pilots were confused an assumed they were ditching in Botany Bay. 

Putting down the wheels is normally one of several essential steps including lowering lowering of flaps, aligning the aircraft with the runway and reducing speed an aircraft is going to land.

To assist pilots in this regard there are mandated checklists and in addition there is generally a pilot and co-pilot as an additional risk management contingency, especially if one is asleep or negligent. One can only assume that the pilots did not have their minds on the job, or possibly had their minds on some other job. I would leave possibilities in that regard to the reader&#039;s imagination. 

The reason for putting humans in the cockpit with checklists and procedures is for passenger safety. Otherwise we can use computers for this end and leave the pilot on the ground. It would appear that the only thing that saved everybody in this instance was the final risk management facility, a recorded verbal warning linked to ground proximity radar. 

If the ATSB has any enforcement capability left, and by all accounts this capacity is subject to some question, the pilots concerned should be sacked as they are not fit to have responsibilityseveral hundred people&#039;s lives, notwithstanding their own and the rest of the flight crew.

Left to its own devices, Qantas will do little or nothing to punish these pilots because to do so will will reflect badly on  internal competency. As with the recent failures to undertake mandated pressure bulkhead maintenance it would appear that the regulators will do nothing, as they appear to be beholden to commercial and political interests, with passenger safety coming a poor second.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is my understanding that the standard cockpit procedures in relation to landing at airports, (or any other location for that matterother than ditching in the water) require wheels to be down. Perhaps the pilots were confused an assumed they were ditching in Botany Bay. </p>
<p>Putting down the wheels is normally one of several essential steps including lowering lowering of flaps, aligning the aircraft with the runway and reducing speed an aircraft is going to land.</p>
<p>To assist pilots in this regard there are mandated checklists and in addition there is generally a pilot and co-pilot as an additional risk management contingency, especially if one is asleep or negligent. One can only assume that the pilots did not have their minds on the job, or possibly had their minds on some other job. I would leave possibilities in that regard to the reader&#8217;s imagination. </p>
<p>The reason for putting humans in the cockpit with checklists and procedures is for passenger safety. Otherwise we can use computers for this end and leave the pilot on the ground. It would appear that the only thing that saved everybody in this instance was the final risk management facility, a recorded verbal warning linked to ground proximity radar. </p>
<p>If the ATSB has any enforcement capability left, and by all accounts this capacity is subject to some question, the pilots concerned should be sacked as they are not fit to have responsibilityseveral hundred people&#8217;s lives, notwithstanding their own and the rest of the flight crew.</p>
<p>Left to its own devices, Qantas will do little or nothing to punish these pilots because to do so will will reflect badly on  internal competency. As with the recent failures to undertake mandated pressure bulkhead maintenance it would appear that the regulators will do nothing, as they appear to be beholden to commercial and political interests, with passenger safety coming a poor second.</p>
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