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	<title>Comments on: Mungo: Tough stance on boat people borders on the ridiculous</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/</link>
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		<title>By: Rena Zurawel</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43817</link>
		<dc:creator>Rena Zurawel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43817</guid>
		<description>Dear Harold
I know it for a fact that a false passport is much more expensive than a fee paid to a people&#039;s smuggler.
At one stage Alexander Downer admitted publicly that an Australian passport was about $20 000 and that some AUstralian tourists short of cash overseas were ready to sell their passports and then  claimed to have lost it.
People&#039;s smugglers  usually charge $5000 t0 $6000 (with or without family)  depending on what is involved . Some would secure safe passage from Afghanistan to Pakistan and Indonesia. Some refugees paid the smugglers to take them to Europe and they were shocked to find themselves in Indonesia.
Some undocumented arrivals had the documents lost during  bombardment. It happened when Kabul hospital was destroyed by bombs and the people who survived ; patients, doctors and nurses were left with no docs.
On the other hand, only this week Bill Clinton went to Kosovo to be present at the opening ceremony of his memorial. Grateful Kosovars built him a huge monument for having bombed Pristina which they consider to be their capital.   At the time many refugees from Pristina ( so called &#039;Kosovars&#039;) were granted Australian refugee status. 
I remember the circus with taking some  &#039;Kosovars&#039; to Tasmania and then sending them back to Pristina so they could build that monument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Harold<br />
I know it for a fact that a false passport is much more expensive than a fee paid to a people&#8217;s smuggler.<br />
At one stage Alexander Downer admitted publicly that an Australian passport was about $20 000 and that some AUstralian tourists short of cash overseas were ready to sell their passports and then  claimed to have lost it.<br />
People&#8217;s smugglers  usually charge $5000 t0 $6000 (with or without family)  depending on what is involved . Some would secure safe passage from Afghanistan to Pakistan and Indonesia. Some refugees paid the smugglers to take them to Europe and they were shocked to find themselves in Indonesia.<br />
Some undocumented arrivals had the documents lost during  bombardment. It happened when Kabul hospital was destroyed by bombs and the people who survived ; patients, doctors and nurses were left with no docs.<br />
On the other hand, only this week Bill Clinton went to Kosovo to be present at the opening ceremony of his memorial. Grateful Kosovars built him a huge monument for having bombed Pristina which they consider to be their capital.   At the time many refugees from Pristina ( so called &#8216;Kosovars&#8217;) were granted Australian refugee status.<br />
I remember the circus with taking some  &#8216;Kosovars&#8217; to Tasmania and then sending them back to Pristina so they could build that monument.</p>
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		<title>By: John Bennetts</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43781</link>
		<dc:creator>John Bennetts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43781</guid>
		<description>Harold, Are your opinions based on facts, or have you just unilaterally decided that investigations are not carried out?

Your offensive tosh is not worthy of the space allocated to it.

Mungo has again demonstrated clear analytic skills and has courageously proceeded to put his name to a piece which is worthy of consideration and debate, for debate must lie at the root of policy development.

Both major parties in Australia need to develop real policies and place them before the electorate, rather than fighting over a slimmer and slimmer slice of the common ground which lies between their unstated and ill-defined policy platforms.

If they do not, then prepare for further voter affection for the Greens and for single issue parties.

Regarding two child families and baby bonuses - the former has been shown to happen automatically within advanced societies with good social support systems in place and the latter is simply pork barrelling and is in no way relevant to a considered discussion of population policy, except as an impediment to rational behaviour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harold, Are your opinions based on facts, or have you just unilaterally decided that investigations are not carried out?</p>
<p>Your offensive tosh is not worthy of the space allocated to it.</p>
<p>Mungo has again demonstrated clear analytic skills and has courageously proceeded to put his name to a piece which is worthy of consideration and debate, for debate must lie at the root of policy development.</p>
<p>Both major parties in Australia need to develop real policies and place them before the electorate, rather than fighting over a slimmer and slimmer slice of the common ground which lies between their unstated and ill-defined policy platforms.</p>
<p>If they do not, then prepare for further voter affection for the Greens and for single issue parties.</p>
<p>Regarding two child families and baby bonuses - the former has been shown to happen automatically within advanced societies with good social support systems in place and the latter is simply pork barrelling and is in no way relevant to a considered discussion of population policy, except as an impediment to rational behaviour.</p>
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		<title>By: harold redmond</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43776</link>
		<dc:creator>harold redmond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43776</guid>
		<description>Mungo,
Don&#039;t  agree on two particular points.
Firtsly whilst  most refugee applicants certainly are  ruled to be genuine refugees, that belies the fact that no substantial factual investigations into their claims are ever undertaken - mainly due to the  self destruction of identity documents plus the  insurmountable logistics which would be required. What therefore then happens is that as the allegations of persecution etc cannot be disproved , the applications  have to be accepted, despite  the fact they have essentialy &#039;rorted&#039; Australia&#039;s immigration system.

Also like most Australians it is unacceptable to me that persons  who can afford to pay people smugglers end up getting  entry preference over those who haves been waiting for years in refugee camps all over the world. Claims by commentators such as yourself that there are no ques  are disengenuous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mungo,<br />
Don&#8217;t  agree on two particular points.<br />
Firtsly whilst  most refugee applicants certainly are  ruled to be genuine refugees, that belies the fact that no substantial factual investigations into their claims are ever undertaken - mainly due to the  self destruction of identity documents plus the  insurmountable logistics which would be required. What therefore then happens is that as the allegations of persecution etc cannot be disproved , the applications  have to be accepted, despite  the fact they have essentialy &#8216;rorted&#8217; Australia&#8217;s immigration system.</p>
<p>Also like most Australians it is unacceptable to me that persons  who can afford to pay people smugglers end up getting  entry preference over those who haves been waiting for years in refugee camps all over the world. Claims by commentators such as yourself that there are no ques  are disengenuous.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43758</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43758</guid>
		<description>The truth of the matter can be found in our national anthem:

We&#039;ve golden soil and wealth for toil,
Our home is girt by sea; ...

For those who&#039;ve come across the seas
We&#039;ve boundless plains to share; ...

Sounds welcoming, doesn&#039;t it?  But the truth lies in the following unsung verses:

From England, Scotia, Erin&#039;s Isle,
Who come our lot to share,
Let all combine with heart and hand
To advance Australia fair! ...

Shou&#039;d foreign foe e&#039;er sight our coast,
Or dare a foot to land,
We&#039;ll rouse to arms like sires of yore
To guard our native strand;
Brittannia then shall surely know,
Beyond wide ocean&#039;s roll,
Her sons in fair Australia&#039;s land
Still keep a British soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The truth of the matter can be found in our national anthem:</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve golden soil and wealth for toil,<br />
Our home is girt by sea; &#8230;</p>
<p>For those who&#8217;ve come across the seas<br />
We&#8217;ve boundless plains to share; &#8230;</p>
<p>Sounds welcoming, doesn&#8217;t it?  But the truth lies in the following unsung verses:</p>
<p>From England, Scotia, Erin&#8217;s Isle,<br />
Who come our lot to share,<br />
Let all combine with heart and hand<br />
To advance Australia fair! &#8230;</p>
<p>Shou&#8217;d foreign foe e&#8217;er sight our coast,<br />
Or dare a foot to land,<br />
We&#8217;ll rouse to arms like sires of yore<br />
To guard our native strand;<br />
Brittannia then shall surely know,<br />
Beyond wide ocean&#8217;s roll,<br />
Her sons in fair Australia&#8217;s land<br />
Still keep a British soul.</p>
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		<title>By: RaymondChurch</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43754</link>
		<dc:creator>RaymondChurch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43754</guid>
		<description>Perhaps our Politicians could show more honesty and integrity and less self satisfaction and greed. The current collective mob, with a few exceptions, would be some of the most pathetic exponents of thought, words, deeds and debating skills to befall the corridors of House and Senate in decades.  While morals seem to be of no consequence, were they ever?,the class of 2007 has thrown up such little talent, I am amazed there hasn&#039;t been an invasion from somewhere. If the best Rudd can do is come to some agreement worth tens of millions of dollars with the most corrupt regimein Asia, to try and take the heat off his Govt&#039;s &quot;what do we do with them next&quot; sort of policy, its no wonder the low life that are the organisers of asylum seekers, regard Australia as easy pickings. How can it be, 3 months ago the Govts border control/asylum seekers policy was working just fine, regardless of the phoney rightous bleatings of Turnbull and his cronies, yet now its a bloody shambles. Today we are expected to beleive the boat that sank in the Timor sea contained a cargo of human beings who may or may not be asylum seekers. Perhaps they were on a summer cruise, enjoying the sea air and doing a spot of fishing, partaking of a few beers and canapes. More of the Govts spin, fooling noone, but unashamedly dispensed as fact. This Government needs to bite the bullet and get on with being a caring,honest, humanitarian, transparent leader. Do what they know to be the correct treatment of these unfortunate men, women and children, showing the world they have the courage to stand up and be counted and sod the Coalitions politically based, inhumane alternatives. Indonesia is playing Rudd for a mug, time he opened his eyes and his mind to reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps our Politicians could show more honesty and integrity and less self satisfaction and greed. The current collective mob, with a few exceptions, would be some of the most pathetic exponents of thought, words, deeds and debating skills to befall the corridors of House and Senate in decades.  While morals seem to be of no consequence, were they ever?,the class of 2007 has thrown up such little talent, I am amazed there hasn&#8217;t been an invasion from somewhere. If the best Rudd can do is come to some agreement worth tens of millions of dollars with the most corrupt regimein Asia, to try and take the heat off his Govt&#8217;s &#8220;what do we do with them next&#8221; sort of policy, its no wonder the low life that are the organisers of asylum seekers, regard Australia as easy pickings. How can it be, 3 months ago the Govts border control/asylum seekers policy was working just fine, regardless of the phoney rightous bleatings of Turnbull and his cronies, yet now its a bloody shambles. Today we are expected to beleive the boat that sank in the Timor sea contained a cargo of human beings who may or may not be asylum seekers. Perhaps they were on a summer cruise, enjoying the sea air and doing a spot of fishing, partaking of a few beers and canapes. More of the Govts spin, fooling noone, but unashamedly dispensed as fact. This Government needs to bite the bullet and get on with being a caring,honest, humanitarian, transparent leader. Do what they know to be the correct treatment of these unfortunate men, women and children, showing the world they have the courage to stand up and be counted and sod the Coalitions politically based, inhumane alternatives. Indonesia is playing Rudd for a mug, time he opened his eyes and his mind to reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Rena Zurawel</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43746</link>
		<dc:creator>Rena Zurawel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43746</guid>
		<description>As long as refugees are seen as vampires  invading our shores there is no chance for any reasonable debate on anything related to migration programs. 

Venise Alstergen 
Refugees ARE part of our immigration program. What makes them different to other migrants is political  points scoring of some of our politicians.
We have plenty of water but a huge mismanagement of the resources. Perhaps refugees would help us with the solution. After all they had already helped us with the Snowy Mountain Scheme.
Crowded trains and two hour traffic jams in a 20 million population of a vast country is already nothing short of a sick joke. We need people to build the infrastructure Australian people have neglected for so many years and were unable and unwilling to do anything about it. We pay taxes for our roads and just wondering where is it going? We pay huge water bills. Where is the money going?
WE definitely have too much  room for ugly parking spots and car parks. No wonder there is no room for people.

And baby bonuses have absolutely nothing to do with refugees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as refugees are seen as vampires  invading our shores there is no chance for any reasonable debate on anything related to migration programs. </p>
<p>Venise Alstergen<br />
Refugees ARE part of our immigration program. What makes them different to other migrants is political  points scoring of some of our politicians.<br />
We have plenty of water but a huge mismanagement of the resources. Perhaps refugees would help us with the solution. After all they had already helped us with the Snowy Mountain Scheme.<br />
Crowded trains and two hour traffic jams in a 20 million population of a vast country is already nothing short of a sick joke. We need people to build the infrastructure Australian people have neglected for so many years and were unable and unwilling to do anything about it. We pay taxes for our roads and just wondering where is it going? We pay huge water bills. Where is the money going?<br />
WE definitely have too much  room for ugly parking spots and car parks. No wonder there is no room for people.</p>
<p>And baby bonuses have absolutely nothing to do with refugees.</p>
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		<title>By: Venise Alstergren</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43733</link>
		<dc:creator>Venise Alstergren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 04:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43733</guid>
		<description>Martin Shanahan: I agree with you totally. However something drastic needs to be done now about our exploding population. We don&#039;t have the infrastructure and we don&#039;t have the water to cope with this explosion.

Perhaps all our political leaders can cease paying baby bonuses and start invoking a two child only limit on all breeding couples.

Or do you enjoy the nightmare of crowded trains or two hour traffic jams?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin Shanahan: I agree with you totally. However something drastic needs to be done now about our exploding population. We don&#8217;t have the infrastructure and we don&#8217;t have the water to cope with this explosion.</p>
<p>Perhaps all our political leaders can cease paying baby bonuses and start invoking a two child only limit on all breeding couples.</p>
<p>Or do you enjoy the nightmare of crowded trains or two hour traffic jams?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael James</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43731</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 04:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43731</guid>
		<description>(from Michael R. James)
The same timidity and paranoia fuels our bloated defence procurement.  Not only are we about to commit about $40B to buying hugely expensive fighters  but they cannot even do what is claimed, and as time goes on their inadequacies can only get comparatively worse. (and hopeless SuperHornets that cannot do anything much).
See Ben Sandilands Friday article and the many blogs to it:
www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/30/crikey-clarifier-the-jsf-project-the-j-is-for-joke</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(from Michael R. James)<br />
The same timidity and paranoia fuels our bloated defence procurement.  Not only are we about to commit about $40B to buying hugely expensive fighters  but they cannot even do what is claimed, and as time goes on their inadequacies can only get comparatively worse. (and hopeless SuperHornets that cannot do anything much).<br />
See Ben Sandilands Friday article and the many blogs to it:<br />
<a href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/30/crikey-clarifier-the-jsf-project-the-j-is-for-joke" rel="nofollow">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/30/crikey-clarifier-the-jsf-project-the-j-is-for-joke</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin Shanahan</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43709</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Shanahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 02:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/11/02/mungo-tough-stance-on-boat-people-borders-on-the-ridiculous/#comment-43709</guid>
		<description>I supported Australia&#039;s involvement in the Vietnam War - I saw the Russian back North Vietnamese tanks roll into Saigon making mockery of support promised for South Vietnam by the Americans.

In the circumstances, the least I could do was to fully support the acceptance by Australia of as many Vietnamese who sought refuge from the victorious North Vietnamese communists. I know that millions of Vietnamese fled their homeland the first real impact starting early in 1976. I understand that Australia took around 200,000 South Vietnamese and a much lesser number of Cambodians. Australia in 1976 was economically and structurally much less sophisticated than it is in 2009.

I find it difficult to comprehend how we can accept, currently, around 150,000 migrants annually and in that number only provide for around 13,000 refugees. Our country is wealthy enough, sophisticated enough and smart enough, to accept tens of thousands of refugees almost immediately and substantially increase the annual intake of refugees on an ongoing basis.

For the purposes of discussion, and I have had  this discussion with my children, I propose that Australia&#039;s refugee policy needs to be varied. In the next 12 months, to November 2010, we take 200,000 refugees - seeking to bring in where possible those who have been in camps for longer periods than others. In the 13 months from December 2010 we bring in 50,000 a year and do this annually until 2015 when we review and again vary with the plan being to increase the annual number to 75,000.

Of course this will change the social fabric of Australia - just as post WW2 the Italians and Greeks changed Australia for the better, as in the late 1970s and 1980s the Vietnamese added lustre to our society - and indeed as the Chinese flooding our cities have done - I live in Maxine McKew&#039;s electorate, Bennelong. One only has to visit the shopping centre of Eastwood to witness the dramatic, positive and all encompassing impact Chinese immigration has made to a member of the north western suburban Bible Belt of Sydney.

And anyway, my ethnic background is Irish. My great... parents on dad&#039;s side came to an Australia on an assisted passage in 1841. On mum&#039;s side, again an assisted passage, in 1842. So no convict blood on my side just lots of help.

Open the doors, quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I supported Australia&#8217;s involvement in the Vietnam War - I saw the Russian back North Vietnamese tanks roll into Saigon making mockery of support promised for South Vietnam by the Americans.</p>
<p>In the circumstances, the least I could do was to fully support the acceptance by Australia of as many Vietnamese who sought refuge from the victorious North Vietnamese communists. I know that millions of Vietnamese fled their homeland the first real impact starting early in 1976. I understand that Australia took around 200,000 South Vietnamese and a much lesser number of Cambodians. Australia in 1976 was economically and structurally much less sophisticated than it is in 2009.</p>
<p>I find it difficult to comprehend how we can accept, currently, around 150,000 migrants annually and in that number only provide for around 13,000 refugees. Our country is wealthy enough, sophisticated enough and smart enough, to accept tens of thousands of refugees almost immediately and substantially increase the annual intake of refugees on an ongoing basis.</p>
<p>For the purposes of discussion, and I have had  this discussion with my children, I propose that Australia&#8217;s refugee policy needs to be varied. In the next 12 months, to November 2010, we take 200,000 refugees - seeking to bring in where possible those who have been in camps for longer periods than others. In the 13 months from December 2010 we bring in 50,000 a year and do this annually until 2015 when we review and again vary with the plan being to increase the annual number to 75,000.</p>
<p>Of course this will change the social fabric of Australia - just as post WW2 the Italians and Greeks changed Australia for the better, as in the late 1970s and 1980s the Vietnamese added lustre to our society - and indeed as the Chinese flooding our cities have done - I live in Maxine McKew&#8217;s electorate, Bennelong. One only has to visit the shopping centre of Eastwood to witness the dramatic, positive and all encompassing impact Chinese immigration has made to a member of the north western suburban Bible Belt of Sydney.</p>
<p>And anyway, my ethnic background is Irish. My great&#8230; parents on dad&#8217;s side came to an Australia on an assisted passage in 1841. On mum&#8217;s side, again an assisted passage, in 1842. So no convict blood on my side just lots of help.</p>
<p>Open the doors, quickly.</p>
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