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	<title>Comments on: We don&#8217;t need new fast trains, Albo, we need new cities</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: meski</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43687</link>
		<dc:creator>meski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43687</guid>
		<description>William makes a good point re population growth.  look at the left graph here 

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/3101.0Main+Features1Mar%202009?OpenDocument

or (this is same, but less likely to have been mangled) http://preview.tinyurl.com/yarqktj

Observe the mostly flat (grey) line representing natural growth, compared to the dashed line representing oversees migration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William makes a good point re population growth.  look at the left graph here </p>
<p><a href="http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/3101.0Main+Features1Mar%202009?OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/3101.0Main+Features1Mar%202009?OpenDocument</a></p>
<p>or (this is same, but less likely to have been mangled) <a href="http://preview.tinyurl.com/yarqktj" rel="nofollow">http://preview.tinyurl.com/yarqktj</a></p>
<p>Observe the mostly flat (grey) line representing natural growth, compared to the dashed line representing oversees migration.</p>
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		<title>By: William Schild</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43623</link>
		<dc:creator>William Schild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43623</guid>
		<description>An interesting article and as a designer of tomorrow I have some points to make.  Rundle is accurate in his view that we need to design new cities and to ask ourselves what is a city? (another question we should ask is how do we transport people, not how do we move cars) 
The current idea to combat urban sprawl by packing people into high rises is not going to work for cultural reasons. These cities  will need to be economically viable or else developers won&#039;t want to develop them and governments will struggle to implement their designs  without raising taxes. 
The problem is that this task is not the province of one form of designer (architect), it will need a slew of people working on the project from landscape architects, urban designers, industrial designers, town planners, engineers, economists and yes developers so that the new cities are designed for humans. ( I agree with the comment about DCM)
For the person who said we need less population, the reason for this expected growth rate is not our fertility but immigration.  
Unless you seal the boarders tomorrow this is our reality and I am afraid I can&#039;t be that brutal, can you?.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting article and as a designer of tomorrow I have some points to make.  Rundle is accurate in his view that we need to design new cities and to ask ourselves what is a city? (another question we should ask is how do we transport people, not how do we move cars)<br />
The current idea to combat urban sprawl by packing people into high rises is not going to work for cultural reasons. These cities  will need to be economically viable or else developers won&#8217;t want to develop them and governments will struggle to implement their designs  without raising taxes.<br />
The problem is that this task is not the province of one form of designer (architect), it will need a slew of people working on the project from landscape architects, urban designers, industrial designers, town planners, engineers, economists and yes developers so that the new cities are designed for humans. ( I agree with the comment about DCM)<br />
For the person who said we need less population, the reason for this expected growth rate is not our fertility but immigration.<br />
Unless you seal the boarders tomorrow this is our reality and I am afraid I can&#8217;t be that brutal, can you?.</p>
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		<title>By: AR</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43345</link>
		<dc:creator>AR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43345</guid>
		<description>Bad as Li&#039;l AA was, has &quot;Foreign Minister&quot; Smith ever looked more like the blow-waved simulacrum that he is than the 7.30 Report tonight? 
Not only that he doesn’t have a clue but, in repeating Krudd’s (current) line by rote, shows that he is the epitome of the seat warming, times serving apparatchik  who, in the real world would be lucky to be a dog turd collector. Apologies to the Godd Soldier Schweik.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bad as Li&#8217;l AA was, has &#8220;Foreign Minister&#8221; Smith ever looked more like the blow-waved simulacrum that he is than the 7.30 Report tonight?<br />
Not only that he doesn’t have a clue but, in repeating Krudd’s (current) line by rote, shows that he is the epitome of the seat warming, times serving apparatchik  who, in the real world would be lucky to be a dog turd collector. Apologies to the Godd Soldier Schweik.</p>
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		<title>By: John Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43299</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43299</guid>
		<description>Some good points Guy, but for Chrissakes be careful of the architects you let loose. Remember that about 70% of CO2 emissions are down to cities and who has been designing them up to now - fashion conscious hi-tech look architects with no training or idea about sustainable design. Yes, there are a few good ones around but most of the stellar ones are not!
Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some good points Guy, but for Chrissakes be careful of the architects you let loose. Remember that about 70% of CO2 emissions are down to cities and who has been designing them up to now - fashion conscious hi-tech look architects with no training or idea about sustainable design. Yes, there are a few good ones around but most of the stellar ones are not!<br />
Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Beaver</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43207</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Beaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43207</guid>
		<description>More Canberra defence:
&quot;And Canberra is economical, well designed and comfortable&quot;

Yes, it is all of those things. Particularly when compared to Sydney.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More Canberra defence:<br />
&#8220;And Canberra is economical, well designed and comfortable&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, it is all of those things. Particularly when compared to Sydney.</p>
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		<title>By: meski</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43206</link>
		<dc:creator>meski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43206</guid>
		<description>@John:  Canberra isn&#039;t a bad place to live.  Low population, which means you aren&#039;t going to get everything a high population centre has, but some people like low population.  By its nature, new architect designed cities will be high density centres, and I pity any who live in one that hasn&#039;t been designed, but just &#039;happened&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John:  Canberra isn&#8217;t a bad place to live.  Low population, which means you aren&#8217;t going to get everything a high population centre has, but some people like low population.  By its nature, new architect designed cities will be high density centres, and I pity any who live in one that hasn&#8217;t been designed, but just &#8216;happened&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: John Tevelein</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43204</link>
		<dc:creator>John Tevelein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43204</guid>
		<description>Rundle for PM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rundle for PM</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43196</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43196</guid>
		<description>Come on John, I got told to &quot;grow up&quot; just for showing a touch of healthy cynicism.

Ned, I&#039;ve read that the state of the art in planning has now moved on from the fashion of &quot;organic&quot; suburban streets designed to increase the distance between any two points about tenfold, and strict zoning that turns every shopping strip into either a Westfield-in-waiting or a white elephant. What can you tell us about the next generation of towns?

And &lt;i&gt;what do women want?&lt;/i&gt; Since, as I argued above, it&#039;s all for nothing if women don&#039;t like these towns enough to move into them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Come on John, I got told to &#8220;grow up&#8221; just for showing a touch of healthy cynicism.</p>
<p>Ned, I&#8217;ve read that the state of the art in planning has now moved on from the fashion of &#8220;organic&#8221; suburban streets designed to increase the distance between any two points about tenfold, and strict zoning that turns every shopping strip into either a Westfield-in-waiting or a white elephant. What can you tell us about the next generation of towns?</p>
<p>And <i>what do women want?</i> Since, as I argued above, it&#8217;s all for nothing if women don&#8217;t like these towns enough to move into them.</p>
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		<title>By: John Bennetts</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43189</link>
		<dc:creator>John Bennetts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43189</guid>
		<description>Welcome to the big, wide world, Ned.

When you fix the coastal fringe and ribbon development including below high tide mark then you may start on the satellite cities.  Not before.  Priorities, fellow, priorities.

On further reflection, any help you can offer by way of setting aside meaningful transport corridors in growth areas would be much appreciated.  With room for cycles, trains, buses and the odd car or three.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome to the big, wide world, Ned.</p>
<p>When you fix the coastal fringe and ribbon development including below high tide mark then you may start on the satellite cities.  Not before.  Priorities, fellow, priorities.</p>
<p>On further reflection, any help you can offer by way of setting aside meaningful transport corridors in growth areas would be much appreciated.  With room for cycles, trains, buses and the odd car or three.</p>
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		<title>By: Ned Lukies</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43188</link>
		<dc:creator>Ned Lukies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43188</guid>
		<description>John,

Maybe I can answer that question. As someone who has just completed their 3rd year of a planning degree, I can certainly say that there are some who are ignorant. However, the fast majority are aware of the issues discussed above, and are passionate about trying to provide solutions to the various problem we face as a country. Lets just hope the idealism doesn&#039;t get beaten out of us when we graduate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Maybe I can answer that question. As someone who has just completed their 3rd year of a planning degree, I can certainly say that there are some who are ignorant. However, the fast majority are aware of the issues discussed above, and are passionate about trying to provide solutions to the various problem we face as a country. Lets just hope the idealism doesn&#8217;t get beaten out of us when we graduate.</p>
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		<title>By: John Bennetts</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43180</link>
		<dc:creator>John Bennetts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43180</guid>
		<description>Where will the new town planners come from?

The ones we have at present are either corrupt or ignorant.  Or both.

And please stop telling me that an architect can solve the problems.  Anybody remember a bloke called Burley Griffin?  And Canberra is economical, well designed and comfortable?  For sheep, perhaps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where will the new town planners come from?</p>
<p>The ones we have at present are either corrupt or ignorant.  Or both.</p>
<p>And please stop telling me that an architect can solve the problems.  Anybody remember a bloke called Burley Griffin?  And Canberra is economical, well designed and comfortable?  For sheep, perhaps.</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43178</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43178</guid>
		<description>Rena, I don&#039;t think you can drive much of a high-speed train on solar power. You can &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.solardesalination.com.au/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;desalinate water with solar power&lt;/a&gt; though, and it doesn&#039;t even need photovoltaics. The Port Augusta plant will be able to supply up to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ecosmagazine.com/?act=view_file&amp;file_id=EC134p4.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quarter million people&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rena, I don&#8217;t think you can drive much of a high-speed train on solar power. You can <a href="http://www.solardesalination.com.au/" rel="nofollow">desalinate water with solar power</a> though, and it doesn&#8217;t even need photovoltaics. The Port Augusta plant will be able to supply up to a <a href="http://www.ecosmagazine.com/?act=view_file&amp;file_id=EC134p4.pdf" rel="nofollow">quarter million people</a></p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43173</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43173</guid>
		<description>Thanks Scott for that ray of cheeriness. Should we start choosing the music to accompany our mass suicide? Albinoni&#039;s Oboe adagio in C perhaps?

The other day I wrote in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/21/comments-corrections-clarifications-and-cckups-106/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;letter&lt;/a&gt; highlighting research on the potential to transform Australia&#039;s soils into carbon sinks and revive Australian farming. This is the sort of thing that Turnbull was pressing for in his amendments to Labor&#039;s CPRS. Labor weren&#039;t going to give farmers credits for terrestrial sequestration, but now they will.

At the same time I sent a letter to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wentworthgroup.org/docs/1270%20Optimising_Terrestial_Carbon-9b1.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wentworth Group&lt;/a&gt; asking if these measures also might lead to an increase Australia&#039;s rainfall. The short answer is yes, eventually. The long answer is printed below.
==================================================
Dear James,
Thanks for the email and your feedback. I have forwarded it to our Director for his information. 
You are quite right that there has been work linking vegetation with regional rainfall. Clive McAlpine has done some retrospective work on this (I have attached a few papers but there would be more).
The two processes (water sucked up by forests) and increased rainfall from restored vegetation would occur, as you say, at different time scales, with the former being an immediate problem and the latter being a gradual process. Any immediate losses in water availability have to be managed now, although the prospect of increasing rainfall sure is an encouraging one. Unfortunately, regardless we are still heavily under the influence of the El Nino cycle and ultimately global climatic shifts, which is also another good reason to restore vegetation – we need our landscape to be resilient and capable of adaptation. 
Thanks again for your email. Hope the papers help.
Kind regards,
Jane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Scott for that ray of cheeriness. Should we start choosing the music to accompany our mass suicide? Albinoni&#8217;s Oboe adagio in C perhaps?</p>
<p>The other day I wrote in a <a href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/21/comments-corrections-clarifications-and-cckups-106/" rel="nofollow">letter</a> highlighting research on the potential to transform Australia&#8217;s soils into carbon sinks and revive Australian farming. This is the sort of thing that Turnbull was pressing for in his amendments to Labor&#8217;s CPRS. Labor weren&#8217;t going to give farmers credits for terrestrial sequestration, but now they will.</p>
<p>At the same time I sent a letter to the <a href="http://www.wentworthgroup.org/docs/1270%20Optimising_Terrestial_Carbon-9b1.pdf" rel="nofollow">Wentworth Group</a> asking if these measures also might lead to an increase Australia&#8217;s rainfall. The short answer is yes, eventually. The long answer is printed below.<br />
==================================================<br />
Dear James,<br />
Thanks for the email and your feedback. I have forwarded it to our Director for his information.<br />
You are quite right that there has been work linking vegetation with regional rainfall. Clive McAlpine has done some retrospective work on this (I have attached a few papers but there would be more).<br />
The two processes (water sucked up by forests) and increased rainfall from restored vegetation would occur, as you say, at different time scales, with the former being an immediate problem and the latter being a gradual process. Any immediate losses in water availability have to be managed now, although the prospect of increasing rainfall sure is an encouraging one. Unfortunately, regardless we are still heavily under the influence of the El Nino cycle and ultimately global climatic shifts, which is also another good reason to restore vegetation – we need our landscape to be resilient and capable of adaptation.<br />
Thanks again for your email. Hope the papers help.<br />
Kind regards,<br />
Jane</p>
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		<title>By: deconst</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43170</link>
		<dc:creator>deconst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43170</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised noone&#039;s mentioned the NBN. One of the strongest outcomes of a high-speed broadband network is the possibility of decentralisation of the workforce. When you can access files on your work server as fast from home as from your cubicle next door to the server room, we&#039;re going to see smart companies take advantage of regional centres and reopen regional offices or even virtualise the office altogether.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised noone&#8217;s mentioned the NBN. One of the strongest outcomes of a high-speed broadband network is the possibility of decentralisation of the workforce. When you can access files on your work server as fast from home as from your cubicle next door to the server room, we&#8217;re going to see smart companies take advantage of regional centres and reopen regional offices or even virtualise the office altogether.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43159</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43159</guid>
		<description>We ought to be aiming to stabilize our population and then reduce it to a level that the continent can sustain.   To lessen the number of people in a controlled fashion, we could reduce our rate of immigration.  Our birth rate is already below replacement rate. 

Global warming means that this continent will be able to sustain a far smaller population than hitherto.  The green east of Oz will be no more.  I don&#039;t know how quickly it will happen,  but the collapse in food production and water supplies will probably happen sooner than many people expect.  Large parts of our traditional farmlands have been in more or less permanent drought in this decade, and are unlikely to improve.  In the last week I read somewhere that the Lachlan has dried up, threatening the water supplies to several large inland towns in NSW.  The Darling has been dead for years.  Snow will disappear from the snowies, and flows in the Murray will decline to a dribble.

The US has far more inland rivers than Oz.  Las Vegas, in its current form, exists because of the Hoover dam and the once plentiful water of the Colorado river.  (In this decade water flows in the Colorado river have declined substantially and are continuing to decline.)  Ph0enix was built in the Salt River Valley and is supplied by dams built nearby.

We might conceivably pump water from the north to our southern towns, using solar powered pumps, as suggested.  It is more likely that we will produce enough drinking water for our population through de-salination and massive energy use.   Local food production will decline, so we may have to transport food from elsewhere - probably from countries that are unable to feed their own populations.

Whatever plans are made for new population centers, the bulk will move to areas around the existing population centers and the overcrowding will be a thing of nightmare.

The future looks pretty bleak to me, and the idea of calmly proposing an increase in our population to 35 million seems staggeringly disconnected from any sense of reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We ought to be aiming to stabilize our population and then reduce it to a level that the continent can sustain.   To lessen the number of people in a controlled fashion, we could reduce our rate of immigration.  Our birth rate is already below replacement rate. </p>
<p>Global warming means that this continent will be able to sustain a far smaller population than hitherto.  The green east of Oz will be no more.  I don&#8217;t know how quickly it will happen,  but the collapse in food production and water supplies will probably happen sooner than many people expect.  Large parts of our traditional farmlands have been in more or less permanent drought in this decade, and are unlikely to improve.  In the last week I read somewhere that the Lachlan has dried up, threatening the water supplies to several large inland towns in NSW.  The Darling has been dead for years.  Snow will disappear from the snowies, and flows in the Murray will decline to a dribble.</p>
<p>The US has far more inland rivers than Oz.  Las Vegas, in its current form, exists because of the Hoover dam and the once plentiful water of the Colorado river.  (In this decade water flows in the Colorado river have declined substantially and are continuing to decline.)  Ph0enix was built in the Salt River Valley and is supplied by dams built nearby.</p>
<p>We might conceivably pump water from the north to our southern towns, using solar powered pumps, as suggested.  It is more likely that we will produce enough drinking water for our population through de-salination and massive energy use.   Local food production will decline, so we may have to transport food from elsewhere - probably from countries that are unable to feed their own populations.</p>
<p>Whatever plans are made for new population centers, the bulk will move to areas around the existing population centers and the overcrowding will be a thing of nightmare.</p>
<p>The future looks pretty bleak to me, and the idea of calmly proposing an increase in our population to 35 million seems staggeringly disconnected from any sense of reality.</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43157</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43157</guid>
		<description>Bakerboy: OK, I&#039;ve taken my grown-up pills now. The thread was starting to strike me a bit like an anti-capitalist whine, but I may have given too much weight to one or two entries.

Women, it seems to me, lead modern population movements. When enough young women left the country towns in the 1980s, that was the writing on the wall for rural Australia. The collapse of the global wool market soon followed, Australia&#039;s grain exports started to come under attack from the US and Europe, and then came the drought. Men started heading for the cities because the alternative was a single life. When the women leave town, it&#039;s time to sell your house.

It was uncanny. I can&#039;t explain it. I have no mystical faith in women&#039;s intuition, it&#039;s just a pattern I&#039;ve noticed. Today, the hot spots for residential investment are almost all demographically overweight with young women. If you want a tip for picking the next winning suburb, look for a recent change in those age and sex demographics which isn&#039;t yet reflected in the prices.

Most of the regional centres have lost their industrial reasons for being. The farms struggle to make a profit and they get bigger, lowering the population density. Manufacturing towns like Lithgow are just weekend getaways now. Men will go where the work is, even if that means living in a corrugated iron streetscape with a converted shipping container for a pub. But they won&#039;t stay for long and they won&#039;t build anything if there&#039;s no one to share it with but a bunch of footy mates coming around for pizzas and dirty videos.

So I think if we want to induce population movement we&#039;ve got to do it the reverse of the 19th century way and start with the finer things. Gardens, art schools, music, walkability factor, social hubs, bookshops, waterlilies ... Women have taste, and taste has to be the central consideration in these designs. Or we&#039;ll be leading a horse to rancid water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bakerboy: OK, I&#8217;ve taken my grown-up pills now. The thread was starting to strike me a bit like an anti-capitalist whine, but I may have given too much weight to one or two entries.</p>
<p>Women, it seems to me, lead modern population movements. When enough young women left the country towns in the 1980s, that was the writing on the wall for rural Australia. The collapse of the global wool market soon followed, Australia&#8217;s grain exports started to come under attack from the US and Europe, and then came the drought. Men started heading for the cities because the alternative was a single life. When the women leave town, it&#8217;s time to sell your house.</p>
<p>It was uncanny. I can&#8217;t explain it. I have no mystical faith in women&#8217;s intuition, it&#8217;s just a pattern I&#8217;ve noticed. Today, the hot spots for residential investment are almost all demographically overweight with young women. If you want a tip for picking the next winning suburb, look for a recent change in those age and sex demographics which isn&#8217;t yet reflected in the prices.</p>
<p>Most of the regional centres have lost their industrial reasons for being. The farms struggle to make a profit and they get bigger, lowering the population density. Manufacturing towns like Lithgow are just weekend getaways now. Men will go where the work is, even if that means living in a corrugated iron streetscape with a converted shipping container for a pub. But they won&#8217;t stay for long and they won&#8217;t build anything if there&#8217;s no one to share it with but a bunch of footy mates coming around for pizzas and dirty videos.</p>
<p>So I think if we want to induce population movement we&#8217;ve got to do it the reverse of the 19th century way and start with the finer things. Gardens, art schools, music, walkability factor, social hubs, bookshops, waterlilies &#8230; Women have taste, and taste has to be the central consideration in these designs. Or we&#8217;ll be leading a horse to rancid water.</p>
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		<title>By: bakerboy</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43147</link>
		<dc:creator>bakerboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43147</guid>
		<description>James McDonald - grow up and stop criticising viable ideas just because you think they&#039;re some lefty pipe dream. Anyone with half a brain can see that allowing Sydney and Melbourne to just keep spreading out is madness. They build new suburbs 30 klms from the CBD and neglect to provide any public transport so families finish up with 3 or 4 cars so all members can get to work. Even my home town Brisbane is a complete shambles now due to unplanned growth and lack of infrastructure. This year, I moved to Toowoomba, a city of 100,000 people, less than 2 hours from Brisbane, a city with good facilities and the potential to become a much larger centre as long as it&#039;s done with good planning and care. There are other such places in eastern Australia eg Coffs Harbour, Goulburn, Taree, Wonthaggi, Bendigo, Warnambool just to name a few. Let&#039;s think outside the square. Bring back Keating!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James McDonald - grow up and stop criticising viable ideas just because you think they&#8217;re some lefty pipe dream. Anyone with half a brain can see that allowing Sydney and Melbourne to just keep spreading out is madness. They build new suburbs 30 klms from the CBD and neglect to provide any public transport so families finish up with 3 or 4 cars so all members can get to work. Even my home town Brisbane is a complete shambles now due to unplanned growth and lack of infrastructure. This year, I moved to Toowoomba, a city of 100,000 people, less than 2 hours from Brisbane, a city with good facilities and the potential to become a much larger centre as long as it&#8217;s done with good planning and care. There are other such places in eastern Australia eg Coffs Harbour, Goulburn, Taree, Wonthaggi, Bendigo, Warnambool just to name a few. Let&#8217;s think outside the square. Bring back Keating!</p>
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		<title>By: bakerboy</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43146</link>
		<dc:creator>bakerboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43146</guid>
		<description>As Richard McGuire points out - these ideas a nothing new. That silly old incompetent bloke Gough Whitlam and his minister Tom Uren had this idea to build regional cities based on Albury -Wodonga and Bathurst -Orange. But they were a bit before their time with these very good ideas which are glaringly obvious now. We need to start identifying locations for developing existing towns/cities as well as building some others from scratch. Sydney is just an awful, polluted, crowded place now and it will be unliveable not many years from now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Richard McGuire points out - these ideas a nothing new. That silly old incompetent bloke Gough Whitlam and his minister Tom Uren had this idea to build regional cities based on Albury -Wodonga and Bathurst -Orange. But they were a bit before their time with these very good ideas which are glaringly obvious now. We need to start identifying locations for developing existing towns/cities as well as building some others from scratch. Sydney is just an awful, polluted, crowded place now and it will be unliveable not many years from now.</p>
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		<title>By: mtats</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43137</link>
		<dc:creator>mtats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43137</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s a great idea! 

As long as the people who think it&#039;s a good idea move there.

Not me of course, everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a great idea! </p>
<p>As long as the people who think it&#8217;s a good idea move there.</p>
<p>Not me of course, everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43131</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43131</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right Sean, there is a lot of Maoist brave-new-world in this thread. I&#039;m starting to get a picture of what these progressive new cities will look like.

Guy, in theory it could be done. But who would pick the architects? The same people that renamed Darling Harbour as Bagakangaroo, er, Barbarossa, er, Barbar- ... whatever?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right Sean, there is a lot of Maoist brave-new-world in this thread. I&#8217;m starting to get a picture of what these progressive new cities will look like.</p>
<p>Guy, in theory it could be done. But who would pick the architects? The same people that renamed Darling Harbour as Bagakangaroo, er, Barbarossa, er, Barbar- &#8230; whatever?</p>
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		<title>By: sean bedlam</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43128</link>
		<dc:creator>sean bedlam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43128</guid>
		<description>If we do need cities, we&#039;re going to have to start tolerating the people with a vision for those cities. Or the people with the vision are going to have start slitting some throats. In a visionary kinda way, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we do need cities, we&#8217;re going to have to start tolerating the people with a vision for those cities. Or the people with the vision are going to have start slitting some throats. In a visionary kinda way, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Kylie Zupp</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43112</link>
		<dc:creator>Kylie Zupp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43112</guid>
		<description>Well Meski, thanks for the question, in the spirit of the recent column on &#039;dangerous ideas&#039; maybe we could start by doing extremely outrageous things like offering a sterilisation bonus instead of a baby bonus?  (And yes I would be happy to go first - but the offer should apply to both men and women).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Meski, thanks for the question, in the spirit of the recent column on &#8216;dangerous ideas&#8217; maybe we could start by doing extremely outrageous things like offering a sterilisation bonus instead of a baby bonus?  (And yes I would be happy to go first - but the offer should apply to both men and women).</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43106</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43106</guid>
		<description>Oh no.....not footnotes....the horror.....the horror.........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh no&#8230;..not footnotes&#8230;.the horror&#8230;..the horror&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: baal</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43103</link>
		<dc:creator>baal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43103</guid>
		<description>Why does Guy Gundle think a column is an opportunity to put down everything he knows (on that day anyway)? Now he&#039;s even providing footnotes. He&#039;s in need of discipline from, well, frankly, an editor, but does one of those exist at Crikey? The trouble is, judging from the posts above, most respondees follow the same habit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does Guy Gundle think a column is an opportunity to put down everything he knows (on that day anyway)? Now he&#8217;s even providing footnotes. He&#8217;s in need of discipline from, well, frankly, an editor, but does one of those exist at Crikey? The trouble is, judging from the posts above, most respondees follow the same habit.</p>
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		<title>By: Rena Zurawel</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43097</link>
		<dc:creator>Rena Zurawel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 05:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/27/rundle-we-dont-need-new-fast-trains-albo-we-need-new-cities/#comment-43097</guid>
		<description>Guy Rundle
America is not the end of the world. There are desert cities in some parts of our planet. We will have to force big companies to look after our environment and instead of i.e. using our underground water from bores - have desalination plants and encourage them to produce solar energy for their purposes. We are made to believe that because corporates &#039;give jobs&#039; they can have a status of sacred cows. They are plundering this country mercilessly and unconditionally, and they have already sent thousands of jobs overseas. Residential use of water is less than 10%.
The argument that environment friendly industry would cost jobs- may be totally wrong. The invention of a car did not kill a horse. It killed a cabman, perhaps but created chauffeurs, taxi drivers, car drivers, racing drivers, auto mechanics, spare parts industry, jet planes and submarines. The introduction of computer did not kill a secretary. It created the whole armies of clerks and bureaucrats and data operators. 
If we are scared to develop other countries will do it... at our expense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guy Rundle<br />
America is not the end of the world. There are desert cities in some parts of our planet. We will have to force big companies to look after our environment and instead of i.e. using our underground water from bores - have desalination plants and encourage them to produce solar energy for their purposes. We are made to believe that because corporates &#8216;give jobs&#8217; they can have a status of sacred cows. They are plundering this country mercilessly and unconditionally, and they have already sent thousands of jobs overseas. Residential use of water is less than 10%.<br />
The argument that environment friendly industry would cost jobs- may be totally wrong. The invention of a car did not kill a horse. It killed a cabman, perhaps but created chauffeurs, taxi drivers, car drivers, racing drivers, auto mechanics, spare parts industry, jet planes and submarines. The introduction of computer did not kill a secretary. It created the whole armies of clerks and bureaucrats and data operators.<br />
If we are scared to develop other countries will do it&#8230; at our expense.</p>
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