Comments on: Free markets means free movement of labour http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:29:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Harvey Tarvydas http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42803 Harvey Tarvydas Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:10:42 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42803 Dr Harvey M Tarvydas Top article and an important subject to seriously sort out. "(To preach border protection)" to carry on with pathetic dysfunctional emotionally soaked immigration concepts, "while at the same time arguing for lower trade barriers is intellectually inconsistent and just plain hypocritical." is much worse than intellectually inconsistent and hypocritical its plain DUMB. You're too kind Greg Barns. Dr Harvey M Tarvydas

Top article and an important subject to seriously sort out.

“(To preach border protection)” to carry on with pathetic dysfunctional emotionally soaked immigration concepts, “while at the same time arguing for lower trade barriers is intellectually inconsistent and just plain hypocritical.” is much worse than intellectually inconsistent and hypocritical its plain DUMB. You’re too kind Greg Barns.

]]> By: james mcdonald http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42726 james mcdonald Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:20:01 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42726 Julius: Yes you're right, "convoluted" was the wrong word and I apologise for my poor expression. You've expressed my own thought better: "public servants, even or especially UN public servants are going to be good at picking the people who will be winners any better than they customarily pick business winners." We could select for job aptitude but, unlike in the Australian Public Service where the law forbids (supposedly) selecting for anything extraneous to the job criteria, it would in fact be arbitrary. I kind of like having mix-and-match neighbors, I don't want to live in a world whose character is subject to selection by DIAC officers. When we select for a job, the applicant who loses remains part of the community, just not in that workplace. When we select on character or social background for immigrants, we're engineering society. I know the government can do that effectively for employment purposes. I just don't trust the government to stop there. Our control-freak insistence that “We will decide who comes to this country and the manner in which they come” has in recent years begun to turn Australia into a monoculture of middle-class consumerist yuppies, no matter if some of them look a bit different to others or speak a different language at home. In years past, a certain degree of laissez-faire in our migration intake ensured a constant trickle of people who may have looked a bit dorky the first time they tried to cross buy a train ticket or sign a timesheet, but who knew the difference between struggling for the best television set on the block and struggling to survive. They had a lot to teach us. My concern is not so much that they need my help, it's that I need them. Julius: Yes you’re right, “convoluted” was the wrong word and I apologise for my poor expression. You’ve expressed my own thought better: “public servants, even or especially UN public servants are going to be good at picking the people who will be winners any better than they customarily pick business winners.”

We could select for job aptitude but, unlike in the Australian Public Service where the law forbids (supposedly) selecting for anything extraneous to the job criteria, it would in fact be arbitrary. I kind of like having mix-and-match neighbors, I don’t want to live in a world whose character is subject to selection by DIAC officers.

When we select for a job, the applicant who loses remains part of the community, just not in that workplace. When we select on character or social background for immigrants, we’re engineering society. I know the government can do that effectively for employment purposes. I just don’t trust the government to stop there.

Our control-freak insistence that “We will decide who comes to this country and the manner in which they come” has in recent years begun to turn Australia into a monoculture of middle-class consumerist yuppies, no matter if some of them look a bit different to others or speak a different language at home.

In years past, a certain degree of laissez-faire in our migration intake ensured a constant trickle of people who may have looked a bit dorky the first time they tried to cross buy a train ticket or sign a timesheet, but who knew the difference between struggling for the best television set on the block and struggling to survive. They had a lot to teach us. My concern is not so much that they need my help, it’s that I need them.

]]> By: Julius http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42724 Julius Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:28:06 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42724 James McDonald you can't really mean that you find my very simple proposal convoluted unless you have some other sense for the word than its normal meaning of intricate or complicated. That it would be better for Australia to take refugees and other immigrants who can and will make themselves productive enough to be net taxpayers than to take permanent or longterm dependants on social welfare or charity is surely not open to dispute. That this would make us better able to give real help to refugees and the countries they are lodged in rather than just boasting of our generosity to a pitifully small number of the world's displaced people also follows as the night the day. So, perhaps you are simply expressing a doubt, which I would share, that public servants, even or especially UN public servants are going to be good at picking the people who will be winners any better than they customarily pick business winners. But we do have systems and we do select, in fact we have points systems which test the fit for our economy of hundreds of thousands more people than we take as refugees, so it should not be beyond the wit of human beings to do better than allowing some UN employees to select non-English speaking illiterate people of recent nomadic and tribal background (to quote an Age editorial before The Age suddenly turned precious with Kevin Andrews as minister for immigration). We might even use aptitude tests, or Raven's Progressive Matrices, the customary "culture-fair" IQ test if we can't find people who already have some obvious skills of a practical nature easily demonstrated. James McDonald you can’t really mean that you find my very simple proposal convoluted unless you have some other sense for the word than its normal meaning of intricate or complicated. That it would be better for Australia to take refugees and other immigrants who can and will make themselves productive enough to be net taxpayers than to take permanent or longterm dependants on social welfare or charity is surely not open to dispute. That this would make us better able to give real help to refugees and the countries they are lodged in rather than just boasting of our generosity to a pitifully small number of the world’s displaced people also follows as the night the day.

So, perhaps you are simply expressing a doubt, which I would share, that public servants, even or especially UN public servants are going to be good at picking the people who will be winners any better than they customarily pick business winners. But we do have systems and we do select, in fact we have points systems which test the fit for our economy of hundreds of thousands more people than we take as refugees, so it should not be beyond the wit of human beings to do better than allowing some UN employees to select non-English speaking illiterate people of recent nomadic and tribal background (to quote an Age editorial before The Age suddenly turned precious with Kevin Andrews as minister for immigration). We might even use aptitude tests, or Raven’s Progressive Matrices, the customary “culture-fair” IQ test if we can’t find people who already have some obvious skills of a practical nature easily demonstrated.

]]> By: Jillian Blackall http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42706 Jillian Blackall Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:58:28 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42706 Thanks AR. I will definitely think about it. Thanks AR. I will definitely think about it.

]]> By: AR http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42704 AR Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:53:54 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42704 Jillian - go have a look at granny's town. I was there a week ago, hence the reference to double brick, 3-4 b/r on 2-3 acres. Good houses in the town are even less (not acres, they are mostly 1/2 acre) and it is almost the epitome of a perfect environment, cool winters, dry heat summers that will grow anything (good town water), the entire town walkable, hills half an hour drive, superb amenities, i could go on & on... Jillian - go have a look at granny’s town. I was there a week ago, hence the reference to double brick, 3-4 b/r on 2-3 acres.
Good houses in the town are even less (not acres, they are mostly 1/2 acre) and it is almost the epitome of a perfect environment, cool winters, dry heat summers that will grow anything (good town water), the entire town walkable, hills half an hour drive, superb amenities, i could go on & on…

]]> By: Jillian Blackall http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42701 Jillian Blackall Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:45:32 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42701 I should add my Grandma grew up in Parkes, in the central west of NSW. I should add my Grandma grew up in Parkes, in the central west of NSW.

]]> By: Jillian Blackall http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42699 Jillian Blackall Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:41:56 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42699 Amazing. I will look out for the ABC compass episode. (I'm single with no children.) Amazing. I will look out for the ABC compass episode.

(I’m single with no children.)

]]> By: AR http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42698 AR Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:34:18 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42698 JillianB - thanks for noticing. I forgot to mention (being long past breeding) that those country towns also have excellent schools in danger of closure through lack of students, any number of vacant commercial premises going for peppercorn rents just to keep them maintained etc. There is an upcoming ABC Compass on just such a "come here'' scheme in the central west of NSW - houses on acres for $1 pw (not a misprint - a dollar per week!!) to families with children (more the better) and hopefully a skilled, or willing to learn, adult or two. It's done more for our village of <300 people than any politician in the history of the world, entirely self generated AND financed. JillianB - thanks for noticing. I forgot to mention (being long past breeding) that those country towns also have excellent schools in danger of closure through lack of students, any number of vacant commercial premises going for peppercorn rents just to keep them maintained etc.
There is an upcoming ABC Compass on just such a “come here” scheme in the central west of NSW - houses on acres for $1 pw (not a misprint - a dollar per week!!) to families with children (more the better) and hopefully a skilled, or willing to learn, adult or two.
It’s done more for our village of <300 people than any politician in the history of the world, entirely self generated AND financed.

]]> By: Jillian Blackall http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42697 Jillian Blackall Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:24:30 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42697 AR, that sounds tempting. Escape from Sydney and go and live in a town with homes for $150K. Certainly food for thought. AR, that sounds tempting. Escape from Sydney and go and live in a town with homes for $150K. Certainly food for thought.

]]> By: AR http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42695 AR Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:18:49 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42695 As the mega cities of Sydmelb continue to metastise, there are double brick, 3-4 b/r houses on 2-3 acres in most country towns for $150K and jobs, skilled & otherwise crying out to be filled. Once again, that damned democracy thingy - where the votes are, there the pollies throw (churned) tax money. Instead of subsidising megacity living, see Economics 101 for salulatory admonitions, what about charging for their true cost, water, electricity, sewage, POLICING (an up'n'coming growth industry well observed by behaviourists with rats decades ago)? As the mega cities of Sydmelb continue to metastise, there are double brick, 3-4 b/r houses on 2-3 acres in most country towns for $150K and jobs, skilled & otherwise crying out to be filled.
Once again, that damned democracy thingy - where the votes are, there the pollies throw (churned) tax money.
Instead of subsidising megacity living, see Economics 101 for salulatory admonitions, what about charging for their true cost, water, electricity, sewage, POLICING (an up’n’coming growth industry well observed by behaviourists with rats decades ago)?

]]> By: Jillian Blackall http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42693 Jillian Blackall Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:14:05 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42693 Thanks Greg. Another quote to add to my facebook profile. " To preach border protection while at the same time arguing for lower trade barriers is intellectually inconsistent and just plain hypocritical." Thanks Greg.

Another quote to add to my facebook profile.

” To preach border protection while at the same time arguing for lower trade barriers is intellectually inconsistent and just plain hypocritical.”

]]> By: james mcdonald http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42668 james mcdonald Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:32:13 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42668 Very convoluted, Julius. What are you going to do, send a tax auditor to the camps along with the immigration officers? You're still trying to pick winners. How about we just honour our UN agreements and let the winners pick themselves. Very convoluted, Julius. What are you going to do, send a tax auditor to the camps along with the immigration officers? You’re still trying to pick winners.
How about we just honour our UN agreements and let the winners pick themselves.

]]> By: Julius http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42655 Julius Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:30:52 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42655 What you say seems right except that you should acknowledge that John Howard, who got into trouble with some very tentative 1980s remarks that were taken to be anti-Asian, made major changes in the direction you advocate for the labour market without frightening the horses. Would it not make sense for us to take more refugees but take them by way of recruiting (from those clearly displaced and seeking asylum wherever they may be) those who are likely to become regular taxpayers and thereby providing more revenue for the government out of which it could do more for refugees left behind in Africa and elsewhere? What you say seems right except that you should acknowledge that John Howard, who got into trouble with some very tentative 1980s remarks that were taken to be anti-Asian, made major changes in the direction you advocate for the labour market without frightening the horses.

Would it not make sense for us to take more refugees but take them by way of recruiting (from those clearly displaced and seeking asylum wherever they may be) those who are likely to become regular taxpayers and thereby providing more revenue for the government out of which it could do more for refugees left behind in Africa and elsewhere?

]]> By: Heathdon McGregor http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42645 Heathdon McGregor Fri, 23 Oct 2009 05:58:58 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42645 Of course the asylum seekers are a perfect fit for the free market They are desperate, a long way from home and unaware of local laws. Perfectly ready to be taken advantage of. Of course the asylum seekers are a perfect fit for the free market

They are desperate, a long way from home and unaware of local laws.

Perfectly ready to be taken advantage of.

]]> By: stephen http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42585 stephen Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:25:00 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42585 It's the only way. It’s the only way.

]]> By: james mcdonald http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42567 james mcdonald Fri, 23 Oct 2009 02:39:44 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/23/free-markets-means-free-movement-of-labour/#comment-42567 Great article, Greg. Furthermore, micromanaging the selection of those we take, beyond the obvious need to vet out criminal individuals, is a case of the government picking winners. Great article, Greg.
Furthermore, micromanaging the selection of those we take, beyond the obvious need to vet out criminal individuals, is a case of the government picking winners.

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