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	<title>Comments on: You don&#8217;t have to be a roads scholar to work out congestion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin Moodie</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42742</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Moodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 00:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42742</guid>
		<description>Doesn&#039;t road congestion cost businesses more in transporting  their goods?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doesn&#8217;t road congestion cost businesses more in transporting  their goods?</p>
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		<title>By: AR</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42102</link>
		<dc:creator>AR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42102</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s that damn democracy problem - letting hoi polloi influence their leaders aka betters by voting.
As 70%+ people live in a 50kms wide coastal strip, Bris-Syd-Melb (Adelaide is, as always, a special case..) that is where the votes/seats are. Upset those voters and you lose your seat.
Ergo pander and stick your fingers in your ears and make &#039;whoo-whoo&#039; noises until the problems of megacities go away. Sometime after you&#039;re dead and get your Parliamentray pension &amp; Gold Pass, in that order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s that damn democracy problem - letting hoi polloi influence their leaders aka betters by voting.<br />
As 70%+ people live in a 50kms wide coastal strip, Bris-Syd-Melb (Adelaide is, as always, a special case..) that is where the votes/seats are. Upset those voters and you lose your seat.<br />
Ergo pander and stick your fingers in your ears and make &#8216;whoo-whoo&#8217; noises until the problems of megacities go away. Sometime after you&#8217;re dead and get your Parliamentray pension &amp; Gold Pass, in that order.</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42083</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42083</guid>
		<description>Compact cities are recognised by urban-planning experts as better for a number of reasons. Less transit, less loss of bushland and prime soil, cleaner lifestyles as more people can walk to services, shops, friends, etc.

If governments can&#039;t (or won&#039;t) pay for proper rail networks, they should at least be able to provide decent commuter carparks at outlying stations for park-and-ride if they are going to consider congestion taxing. The carrot as well as the stick. And they need to provide security patrols for those commuter carparks. Lots of people who could easily park-and-ride won&#039;t do so because of well-founded security fears for their car.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Compact cities are recognised by urban-planning experts as better for a number of reasons. Less transit, less loss of bushland and prime soil, cleaner lifestyles as more people can walk to services, shops, friends, etc.</p>
<p>If governments can&#8217;t (or won&#8217;t) pay for proper rail networks, they should at least be able to provide decent commuter carparks at outlying stations for park-and-ride if they are going to consider congestion taxing. The carrot as well as the stick. And they need to provide security patrols for those commuter carparks. Lots of people who could easily park-and-ride won&#8217;t do so because of well-founded security fears for their car.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Aveling</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42066</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Aveling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42066</guid>
		<description>There are two other alternatives worth mentioning.

One: move where you live closer to where you work.  

Two: move where you work closer to where you live.  

I&#039;ve done both at various points, as have lots of other people.  It&#039;s not always an option for everyone, but if transport was subsidised less, more people would arrange for home and work to be closer together.  We&#039;d have a little less sprawl, a little more decentralisation of business, a little less congestion and a little less pollution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two other alternatives worth mentioning.</p>
<p>One: move where you live closer to where you work.  </p>
<p>Two: move where you work closer to where you live.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done both at various points, as have lots of other people.  It&#8217;s not always an option for everyone, but if transport was subsidised less, more people would arrange for home and work to be closer together.  We&#8217;d have a little less sprawl, a little more decentralisation of business, a little less congestion and a little less pollution.</p>
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		<title>By: Rhea Thrift</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42046</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhea Thrift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42046</guid>
		<description>Using the price signal to rationalise congestion will only work if there&#039;s a suitable and reliable alternative - public transport.

As it stands, particularly in outer suburban areas, the demand for driving a car to work will be particularly inelastic, that is unresponsive to changes in price, because there is no close subsitutes. 

Levying a congestion tax will raake in a whole heap of money, but only because many people have no other option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using the price signal to rationalise congestion will only work if there&#8217;s a suitable and reliable alternative - public transport.</p>
<p>As it stands, particularly in outer suburban areas, the demand for driving a car to work will be particularly inelastic, that is unresponsive to changes in price, because there is no close subsitutes. </p>
<p>Levying a congestion tax will raake in a whole heap of money, but only because many people have no other option.</p>
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		<title>By: John Bevan</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42025</link>
		<dc:creator>John Bevan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42025</guid>
		<description>The sumple truth is that the people know that a congestion tax will only be that.
There will be no additional spending on public transport so that all that will happen is the ordinary mug will pay a lot more for no gain.  The politicians will of course get their congestion tax paid for by us.  The best way to really improve public transport would be to make politicians to use it as their sole- no ifs and buts - no exemptions- means of transport.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sumple truth is that the people know that a congestion tax will only be that.<br />
There will be no additional spending on public transport so that all that will happen is the ordinary mug will pay a lot more for no gain.  The politicians will of course get their congestion tax paid for by us.  The best way to really improve public transport would be to make politicians to use it as their sole- no ifs and buts - no exemptions- means of transport.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Maddox</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42024</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Maddox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42024</guid>
		<description>Ok -- there&#039;s a *big* existing problem in that car-dependent urban sprawl is not originally the fault of the people who live in it and who now *need* to drive.  They don&#039;t actually *deserve* to be penalised for driving ... but they *are* the people who must be persuaded to drive less, to reduce congestion and pollution.

What we don&#039;t notice much is that wherever good public transport options exist, there are people using them.  Yes, even in the western suburbs of Sydney and northern suburbs of Melbourne.

So -- go ahead and charge drivers for driving.  Not per kilometre but per minute -- or, to promote efficient cars and penalise tanks, per litre of fuel.

But give them a generous rebate for using park-and-ride schemes whenever they transfer to the public transport network at the first opportunity.  Let cyclists get the rebate too 

&quot;But it&#039;s still regressive!&quot; you say.  Okay, make the per-litre charge proportional to the list value of the car.  Drop all the other on-road charges, even the import and stamp duties for when cars change hands.

And just as a sop to manufacturers and to promote newer, safer, more efficient models, offer to buy and scrap old cars whenever they&#039;re borderline for road-worthiness or particularly inefficient.

Done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;there&#8217;s a *big* existing problem in that car-dependent urban sprawl is not originally the fault of the people who live in it and who now *need* to drive.  They don&#8217;t actually *deserve* to be penalised for driving &#8230; but they *are* the people who must be persuaded to drive less, to reduce congestion and pollution.</p>
<p>What we don&#8217;t notice much is that wherever good public transport options exist, there are people using them.  Yes, even in the western suburbs of Sydney and northern suburbs of Melbourne.</p>
<p>So&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;go ahead and charge drivers for driving.  Not per kilometre but per minute&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;or, to promote efficient cars and penalise tanks, per litre of fuel.</p>
<p>But give them a generous rebate for using park-and-ride schemes whenever they transfer to the public transport network at the first opportunity.  Let cyclists get the rebate too </p>
<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>But it&#8217;s still regressive!&#8221; you say.  Okay, make the per-litre charge proportional to the list value of the car.  Drop all the other on-road charges, even the import and stamp duties for when cars change hands.</p>
<p>And just as a sop to manufacturers and to promote newer, safer, more efficient models, offer to buy and scrap old cars whenever they&#8217;re borderline for road-worthiness or particularly inefficient.</p>
<p>Done.</p>
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		<title>By: cityblue</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42018</link>
		<dc:creator>cityblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 05:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42018</guid>
		<description>I think the reality of road pricing is that many bureaucrats would love to consider it (Yes, including the Victorian Transport Department) but whenever the issue gets near a political leader and microphone they run away from it at 100 miles per hour.

A magnificent article BK!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reality of road pricing is that many bureaucrats would love to consider it (Yes, including the Victorian Transport Department) but whenever the issue gets near a political leader and microphone they run away from it at 100 miles per hour.</p>
<p>A magnificent article BK!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Angelo</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42012</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 05:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42012</guid>
		<description>Reports that Ken Henry is advocating a congestion tax on road use is a very sensible suggestion for adjusting the demand for peak period road access which is a very scarce commodity. Such a process would make it economically feasible to encourage  heavy transport to move goods outside of the normal peak period as well as discouraging the increasing demand for road capacity. 

The technology for road use pricing is already with us with the electronic transponder used for tollway access. This together with optical character recognition which enables numberplates to be resolved electronically could be used for road use charging direct to customer accounts . This technology could be quickly adapted to road user charging in peak periods across all major arteries. 

Not only could such a system be used to control peak period use, it could also be used for differential pricing for heavy vehicles to reflect the cost impact on road construction and maintenance. It could also be used to price access to “fast lanes” at a higher cost and slower lanes at a lower cost, and also for differential pricing on congestion days to discourage road use. I would commend Ken Henry&#039;s proposal for serious consideration, not only in Victoria but across Australia as a whole. 

It is unfortunate that Victorian Department of Transport has never seriously considered this option even though it is functionally responsible for both public transport and road construction in Victoria. It is perhaps a reflection of the craven supplication of public sector bureaucrats to the political process which preclude such options being seriously discussed in the public arena, or even as recently as two years ago behind closed doors within the Department when any such discussion was actively suppressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reports that Ken Henry is advocating a congestion tax on road use is a very sensible suggestion for adjusting the demand for peak period road access which is a very scarce commodity. Such a process would make it economically feasible to encourage  heavy transport to move goods outside of the normal peak period as well as discouraging the increasing demand for road capacity. </p>
<p>The technology for road use pricing is already with us with the electronic transponder used for tollway access. This together with optical character recognition which enables numberplates to be resolved electronically could be used for road use charging direct to customer accounts . This technology could be quickly adapted to road user charging in peak periods across all major arteries. </p>
<p>Not only could such a system be used to control peak period use, it could also be used for differential pricing for heavy vehicles to reflect the cost impact on road construction and maintenance. It could also be used to price access to “fast lanes” at a higher cost and slower lanes at a lower cost, and also for differential pricing on congestion days to discourage road use. I would commend Ken Henry&#8217;s proposal for serious consideration, not only in Victoria but across Australia as a whole. </p>
<p>It is unfortunate that Victorian Department of Transport has never seriously considered this option even though it is functionally responsible for both public transport and road construction in Victoria. It is perhaps a reflection of the craven supplication of public sector bureaucrats to the political process which preclude such options being seriously discussed in the public arena, or even as recently as two years ago behind closed doors within the Department when any such discussion was actively suppressed.</p>
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		<title>By: meski</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42006</link>
		<dc:creator>meski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 05:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-42006</guid>
		<description>&quot;By the 1950s, the likes of Milton Friedman were advocating painting radioactive strips down the middle of roads&quot;

That could work another way, make them high enough emission, and you&#039;d want to avoid being stopped in a traffic jam there :^)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>By the 1950s, the likes of Milton Friedman were advocating painting radioactive strips down the middle of roads&#8221;</p>
<p>That could work another way, make them high enough emission, and you&#8217;d want to avoid being stopped in a traffic jam there :^)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom McLoughlin</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41999</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom McLoughlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 04:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41999</guid>
		<description>The cost is not just on family time. In the Sydney air shed there is a basin effect with a dirty ring of pollution that kills some 500 plus people a year prematurely from bad air quality.

And one wonders also if the lack of exercise, and trend toward unhealthy energy foods and drinks is all connected to poor air quality causing lethargy and stress. 

Notice how much better you feel after only a day driving out of the city into fresh country air? That can&#039;t be doing our physiology much good. 

I&#039;ve even started noting the complexion of people on the tv news from the country versus the city. The former always look healthier - including the fatties from the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cost is not just on family time. In the Sydney air shed there is a basin effect with a dirty ring of pollution that kills some 500 plus people a year prematurely from bad air quality.</p>
<p>And one wonders also if the lack of exercise, and trend toward unhealthy energy foods and drinks is all connected to poor air quality causing lethargy and stress. </p>
<p>Notice how much better you feel after only a day driving out of the city into fresh country air? That can&#8217;t be doing our physiology much good. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve even started noting the complexion of people on the tv news from the country versus the city. The former always look healthier - including the fatties from the country.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41989</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 04:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41989</guid>
		<description>A tax on road use in Singapore or London persuades commuters to use alternative, reliable public transport systems. In contrast, a congestion tax on road users, say in western Sydney where 80% of full time workers are car-dependent and there are few public transport alternatives, will have negligible impact on road use. We know what we need for sustainable urban transport movements: concentrations of jobs in multiple urban centres and efficient public transport systems that link these to workers’ homes. This configuration is a pre-requisite to a congestion tax on road use, as Singapore and London planners will tell you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A tax on road use in Singapore or London persuades commuters to use alternative, reliable public transport systems. In contrast, a congestion tax on road users, say in western Sydney where 80% of full time workers are car-dependent and there are few public transport alternatives, will have negligible impact on road use. We know what we need for sustainable urban transport movements: concentrations of jobs in multiple urban centres and efficient public transport systems that link these to workers’ homes. This configuration is a pre-requisite to a congestion tax on road use, as Singapore and London planners will tell you.</p>
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		<title>By: John Molloy</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41972</link>
		<dc:creator>John Molloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41972</guid>
		<description>I wish you were right about the solution. But look at Dhaka . 7.5 hours a day. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26232746-12377,00.html

I am fortunate in that I live closer to Sydney&#039;s CBD than I work. Traffic is mostly light. I see the other poor b_stards stuck going the other way. Dreadful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish you were right about the solution. But look at Dhaka . 7.5 hours a day. <a href="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26232746-12377,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26232746-12377,00.html</a></p>
<p>I am fortunate in that I live closer to Sydney&#8217;s CBD than I work. Traffic is mostly light. I see the other poor b_stards stuck going the other way. Dreadful.</p>
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		<title>By: stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41950</link>
		<dc:creator>stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/20/you-dont-have-to-be-a-roads-scholar-to-work-out-congestion/#comment-41950</guid>
		<description>Hey Bernard another great article. You keep zeroing in on very relevant stories and telling them well, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Bernard another great article. You keep zeroing in on very relevant stories and telling them well, thanks.</p>
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