Comments on: The basic right to fight and kick and scream to find refuge http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 11:47:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Heathdon McGregor http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41751 Heathdon McGregor Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:16:34 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41751 Daer James I believe we are no longer up to educating our own as we have made gettibg a tertiary education depend upon how much money you can get as opposed to your intelligence. "Apparently, being enterprising enough to undertake a tough and dangerous sea voyage rather than wait in refugee camps in the hope someone might do something doesn’t count as an asset." When competing with people experienced and qualified then it isn't an asset that should get you employed. I think the only time I agreed with John Singleton was when he said "if somebody wants to risk their life to get here. I will employ them." I cannot understand how a country that is trying to improve our population through baby bonuses and the like can get into such a fit over how many thousand refugees? I do not believe that skill attainment should come into it when considering refugees I wouldn't leave it up to government officials to decide the value of a person. Daer James

I believe we are no longer up to educating our own as we have made gettibg a tertiary education depend upon how much money you can get as opposed to your intelligence.

“Apparently, being enterprising enough to undertake a tough and dangerous sea voyage rather than wait in refugee camps in the hope someone might do something doesn’t count as an asset.”

When competing with people experienced and qualified then it isn’t an asset that should get you employed.

I think the only time I agreed with John Singleton was when he said “if somebody wants to risk their life to get here. I will employ them.”

I cannot understand how a country that is trying to improve our population through baby bonuses and the like can get into such a fit over how many thousand refugees?

I do not believe that skill attainment should come into it when considering refugees I wouldn’t leave it up to government officials to decide the value of a person.

]]> By: james mcdonald http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41681 james mcdonald Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:20:02 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41681 Heathdon, the raised immigration quotas during the Rudd term show that immigration is in favour as an economic stimulus. That means we like people who bring over lots of money (like those coast resort towns that survive solely on retiree influx), and we also like education and skills paid for by foreign taxpayers because in spite of our wealth we're no longer up to the task of educating our own. Unfortunately, few boat people have a shoe full of diamonds, and although many of them are skilled, the government likes to have control over specific skill selection rather than taking them as they come. Apparently, being enterprising enough to undertake a tough and dangerous sea voyage rather than wait in refugee camps in the hope someone might do something doesn't count as an asset. Heathdon, the raised immigration quotas during the Rudd term show that immigration is in favour as an economic stimulus. That means we like people who bring over lots of money (like those coast resort towns that survive solely on retiree influx), and we also like education and skills paid for by foreign taxpayers because in spite of our wealth we’re no longer up to the task of educating our own.

Unfortunately, few boat people have a shoe full of diamonds, and although many of them are skilled, the government likes to have control over specific skill selection rather than taking them as they come.

Apparently, being enterprising enough to undertake a tough and dangerous sea voyage rather than wait in refugee camps in the hope someone might do something doesn’t count as an asset.

]]> By: Heathdon McGregor http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41592 Heathdon McGregor Fri, 16 Oct 2009 05:13:52 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41592 Not supposed to be an unhappy face but a colon : Followed by an open brackets( Not supposed to be an unhappy face but a colon : Followed by an open brackets(

]]> By: Heathdon McGregor http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41591 Heathdon McGregor Fri, 16 Oct 2009 05:12:40 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41591 Dear Guy Has there been any studies on the results of Mr Frasers open shores policy of the Vietnam era? I would think they would have been positive but have not seen any articles or reflections? If the pollies are against immigration because we cannot handle it then why are they paying baby bonuses for us to boost the population? Kevin57 :(thank you Bullmores,I think) Talking liberal, acting very Liberal What has he actually done since 07. Not just said or proposed but actually done. Dear Guy

Has there been any studies on the results of Mr Frasers open shores policy of the Vietnam era? I would think they would have been positive but have not seen any articles or reflections?

If the pollies are against immigration because we cannot handle it then why are they paying baby bonuses for us to boost the population?

Kevin57 :( thank you Bullmores,I think)

Talking liberal, acting very Liberal

What has he actually done since 07. Not just said or proposed but actually done.

]]> By: Rena Zurawel http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41456 Rena Zurawel Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:22:14 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41456 Gary, Some people seem to know about the WWII and the Holocaust only from Hollywood films. The 'practice' of smuggling people goes back to biblical times. So does the exodus. And I do agree with Guy and Hiroya Sugita that the definition of a 'people's smuggler' is pretty vague. Any migration lawyer/agent may be accused of helping people to make into Australia. Mr. Ruddock would be the first one to explain why he granted 200 refugee visas to active soldiers. Mr. Hawke allowed to stay permanently in Australia all Chinese students in Australia although NONE of them had anything to do with the Tiennamen Square. And, no I have not investigated obesity level in Saudi Arabia. And you must be the only person who tries to explain that an oppressive, religious patriarchy can secure a very high 'averaged per capita income' and ...obesity. Cheers Gary,
Some people seem to know about the WWII and the Holocaust only from Hollywood films.
The ‘practice’ of smuggling people goes back to biblical times. So does the exodus.
And I do agree with Guy and Hiroya Sugita that the definition of a ‘people’s smuggler’ is pretty vague. Any migration lawyer/agent may be accused of helping people to make into Australia. Mr. Ruddock would be the first one to explain why he granted 200 refugee visas to active soldiers. Mr. Hawke allowed to stay permanently in Australia all Chinese students in Australia although NONE of them had anything to do with the Tiennamen Square.
And, no I have not investigated obesity level in Saudi Arabia. And you must be the only person who tries to explain that an oppressive, religious patriarchy can secure a very high ‘averaged per capita income’ and …obesity.

Cheers

]]> By: Tom McLoughlin http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41448 Tom McLoughlin Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:38:23 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41448 Hey Science, saw you on tv tonight. This is your Bonhoeffer (you f*cking worm). Hey Science, saw you on tv tonight. This is your Bonhoeffer (you f*cking worm).

]]> By: Hiroya Sugita http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41442 Hiroya Sugita Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:57:33 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41442 Isn't a character played by Humphrey Bogart in a cinema classic 'Casablanca' a people smuggler? Isn’t a character played by Humphrey Bogart in a cinema classic ‘Casablanca’ a people smuggler?

]]> By: Gary Stowe http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41440 Gary Stowe Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:51:54 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41440 Hello Rena. I'm prepared to accept your assertion of people smugglers doing it for the money in WW2, though I've not read of them. It doesn't make the practice admirable, courageous or acceptable, as Guy seemed to be suggesting. Sorry, but your assertion that Saudi Arabia is not the most affluent country on the planet is based on what? If you look at averaged per capita income, or levels of obesity for example, it's way out there. The fact that it's oppressive, religous patriarchy distorts those two basic measurements in favour of a privileged, relative minority does not alter the maths that are applied to any other nation. Best, GS Hello Rena.

I’m prepared to accept your assertion of people smugglers doing it for the money in WW2, though I’ve not read of them. It doesn’t make the practice admirable, courageous or acceptable, as Guy seemed to be suggesting.

Sorry, but your assertion that Saudi Arabia is not the most affluent country on the planet is based on what? If you look at averaged per capita income, or levels of obesity for example, it’s way out there. The fact that it’s oppressive, religous patriarchy distorts those two basic measurements in favour of a privileged, relative minority does not alter the maths that are applied to any other nation.

Best,

GS

]]> By: Darren Holmes http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41439 Darren Holmes Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:40:41 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41439 Great article Guy, and spot on. I remember cheering on the last "Boat People" in the 1970's, escaping Vietnam, and I am cheering on the latest ones just as hard. If they can make it here from a war zone or from under a heavily oppressed regime, check they are not known criminals (real, dangerous ones) and give them a visa for as long as they might need it. Treat these people as humans. Treat them as you would expect to be treated. Fairly and with compassion. Great article Guy, and spot on. I remember cheering on the last “Boat People” in the 1970’s, escaping Vietnam, and I am cheering on the latest ones just as hard. If they can make it here from a war zone or from under a heavily oppressed regime, check they are not known criminals (real, dangerous ones) and give them a visa for as long as they might need it.
Treat these people as humans. Treat them as you would expect to be treated. Fairly and with compassion.

]]> By: Rena Zurawel http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41422 Rena Zurawel Thu, 15 Oct 2009 08:19:07 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41422 It is not only a 'two-by-election timing for the anti-refugee hysteria. It is a double dissolution possibility. As I mentioned in my another comment, Australia accepts ten times more other migrants every year from many parts of the globe. Apart from Switzerland, Austria has a 200 year tradition of handling refugees. An inland, small country in the middle of Europe, now a member of Union (no passports or visa needed), has not somehow developed a 'border protection' fantasy. Gary Stowe, No analogy between people smugglers of WWII and the current ones?. Well, WWII smugglers were usually private citizens risking their lives. Many of them earned quite a good money, though. But when you read some war literature you may find some similarities. Many Jewish people lost their jewelry and heaps of money to people's smugglers and 'other bastards'. Many were successfully smuggled to Palestine and other countries. Many failed to survive. Further reading would help you to understand that Saudi Arabia is not the most affluent country on the planet and is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention. Australia is a Christian country, as our Queen is the Head of Church and apparently, no Catholic can be a Queen or a king of Australia. It is not only a ‘two-by-election timing for the anti-refugee hysteria. It is a double dissolution possibility. As I mentioned in my another comment, Australia accepts ten times more other migrants every year from many parts of the globe.
Apart from Switzerland, Austria has a 200 year tradition of handling refugees. An inland, small country in the middle of Europe, now a member of Union (no passports or visa needed), has not somehow developed a ‘border protection’ fantasy.

Gary Stowe,
No analogy between people smugglers of WWII and the current ones?. Well, WWII smugglers were usually private citizens risking their lives. Many of them earned quite a good money, though. But when you read some war literature you may find some similarities. Many Jewish people lost their jewelry and heaps of money to people’s smugglers and ‘other bastards’. Many were successfully smuggled to Palestine and other countries. Many failed to survive.
Further reading would help you to understand that Saudi Arabia is not the most affluent country on the planet and is not a signatory to the Geneva Convention.
Australia is a Christian country, as our Queen is the Head of Church and apparently, no Catholic can be a Queen or a king of Australia.

]]> By: Gary Stowe http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41417 Gary Stowe Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:46:19 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41417 Pheww - here we go. Guy, the commentators above clearly love your work. I like your style, but not your distortions and certainly not your politics. First, there is simply no comparison between the people smugglers of WW2 like Boenhoffer (whose name I hope I've spelled correctly and to whom you've previously referred) and the bastards who currently lie to the desperate and then cram them onto dangerous boats for a rough passage to an uncertain future in exchange for extortionate amounts of money. It's a competely false analogy used to gain traction for your argument and it does you no credit. Second (and I'm not a Christian, and I think it both false and exclusive to regard Australia as a Christian country) but you seem to see the onus of reception as particularly confined to the so-called "Christian" countries and call upon "Christian" values in your demand that they offer succour and welcome. Now the most affluent country on the planet is Saudi Arabia, a strictly, even punitively, Muslim nation. Why do the Saudis, in your eyes, have no onus of reception for their brother Muslims from Pakistan? Why do you not expect that the Hindu Tamils find refuge in India? Welcome is not an onus that lies solely with the "Christian" west, especially when the majority of the refugees are from backgrounds other than Christian. I was going to offer a third point, but think I've probably thrown enough grenades with just two. I'll save it, and watch for your reply. In closing I would say that if a person is sufficiently desperate to get into a leaky boat to get to Australia and is prepared to have a decent go when they get here, then welcome to my country. But we're not the only rich, selfish nation on the planet just because we are nominally part of "the west." Look beyond your loathing. Best, GS Pheww - here we go. Guy, the commentators above clearly love your work. I like your style, but not your distortions and certainly not your politics.

First, there is simply no comparison between the people smugglers of WW2 like Boenhoffer (whose name I hope I’ve spelled correctly and to whom you’ve previously referred) and the bastards who currently lie to the desperate and then cram them onto dangerous boats for a rough passage to an uncertain future in exchange for extortionate amounts of money. It’s a competely false analogy used to gain traction for your argument and it does you no credit.

Second (and I’m not a Christian, and I think it both false and exclusive to regard Australia as a Christian country) but you seem to see the onus of reception as particularly confined to the so-called “Christian” countries and call upon “Christian” values in your demand that they offer succour and welcome. Now the most affluent country on the planet is Saudi Arabia, a strictly, even punitively, Muslim nation. Why do the Saudis, in your eyes, have no onus of reception for their brother Muslims from Pakistan? Why do you not expect that the Hindu Tamils find refuge in India? Welcome is not an onus that lies solely with the “Christian” west, especially when the majority of the refugees are from backgrounds other than Christian.

I was going to offer a third point, but think I’ve probably thrown enough grenades with just two. I’ll save it, and watch for your reply.

In closing I would say that if a person is sufficiently desperate to get into a leaky boat to get to Australia and is prepared to have a decent go when they get here, then welcome to my country. But we’re not the only rich, selfish nation on the planet just because we are nominally part of “the west.” Look beyond your loathing.

Best,

GS

]]> By: Simone Rosenberg http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41400 Simone Rosenberg Thu, 15 Oct 2009 06:01:16 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41400 You must keep writing like this Guy not just for Crikey but more widely. As you say so many of Australia's valued citizens might not be alive today if their parents had not fought tooth and nail and done all manner of desperate things to survive and to save themselves and their children. In desperate situations like that legality and queues have no meaning at all and as you say that will to survive and fight for life must be affirmed and understood and valued. It is a sign of great courage and will to live against all the odds and should be valued and applauded not denigrated or treated with suspicion. Listening to some members of the Liberal party makes me cringe because they reveal in what they say and how they say it that they have no capacity as human beings to understand the plight of all those who do desperate things to reach our shores seeking refuge . I expect Australia to welcome and respect those who risk their lives in this way. The least that we can do is to give refuge first then assess and clarify their status later. As for Mr Rudd, given his strength in the polls he has no excuse except to lead with humanity and conscience and not to sink to the lows of the Liberal party. People smugglers can only thrive because there is need for them. You must keep writing like this Guy not just for Crikey but more widely. As you say so many of Australia’s valued citizens might not be alive today if their parents had not fought tooth and nail and done all manner of desperate things to survive and to save themselves and their children. In desperate situations like that legality and queues have no meaning at all and as you say that will to survive and fight for life must be affirmed and understood and valued. It is a sign of great courage and will to live against all the odds and should be valued and applauded not denigrated or treated with suspicion. Listening to some members of the Liberal party makes me cringe because they reveal in what they say and how they say it that they have no capacity as human beings to understand the plight of all those who do desperate things to reach our shores seeking refuge . I expect Australia to welcome and respect those who risk their lives in this way. The least that we can do is to give refuge first then assess and clarify their status later.

As for Mr Rudd, given his strength in the polls he has no excuse except to lead with humanity and conscience and not to sink to the lows of the Liberal party. People smugglers can only thrive because there is need for them.

]]> By: sean bedlam http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41358 sean bedlam Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:27:42 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41358 It's a miracle! Australia made me cry tears of vomit again! It’s a miracle! Australia made me cry tears of vomit again!

]]> By: stephen martin http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41351 stephen martin Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:00:08 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41351 It seems that our politicians prefer to lead from behind. - leadership appears to be a quaint notion to them, conscience too. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is all the go, you have to be pragmatic - votes are at stake here. It seems that our politicians prefer to lead from behind. - leadership appears to be a quaint notion to them, conscience too. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is all the go, you have to be pragmatic - votes are at stake here.

]]> By: Susan Timmins http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41348 Susan Timmins Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:43:34 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41348 This week has seen the return (by both parties) of the uglies and their 'illegal immigrants' cry. Thanks for a great article reminding us all we should be out fighting them again. This week has seen the return (by both parties) of the uglies and their ‘illegal immigrants’ cry. Thanks for a great article reminding us all we should be out fighting them again.

]]> By: BH http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41344 BH Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:32:36 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41344 Another good piece today Guy Another good piece today Guy

]]> By: Robert Smith http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41334 Robert Smith Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:58:17 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/15/rundle-the-basic-right-to-fight-and-kick-and-scream-to-find-refuge/#comment-41334 Right on comrade!!! Right on comrade!!!

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