Comments on: Is it helpful to think about closing the gap as an economic, rather than ethical, issue? http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:22:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sosso http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41336 Sosso Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:11:21 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41336 I'm a Yank so I can provide an objective opinion, which is that economically, your idea is <b>TOTALLY INSANE</b>. Let's leave aside the issue of whether or not it would actually cost $50K a person a year to improve Aboriginal health, which seems wildly overstated to me. Why should 21 million non-Aboriginal Australians pay anything, let alone over $16,000 each ($340 billion divided by 21 million) to "close the gap"? Economically and ethically, the rest of Australia owes the Aborigines NOTHING. The only people responsible for the health of the Aborigines are the Aborigines themselves, and if the Aborigines want the benefits of living longer, then they should pay the costs, not everyone else in the country. They are adults, right, responsible for their own behavior and capable of independent thought? If not, then I assume your plan includes adult supervision for all 400,000 Aborigines, to ensure they eat and exercise properly, and avoid smoking and excessive alcohol. But I'm guessing that approach is ruled out as "racist". Ironically, to the extent that the "gap" results from Aboriginal genetics and cultural behavior, you could wind up throwing $340bn at the problem and still not reduce the gap. (Again, I assume changing their behavior is off the table, being racist and all that.) And if you do close the "gap", what do you get for your $340bn? 6,800,000 person-years of Aborigines sitting on the couch watching TV in an alcoholic stupor. Hooray for central planning! Seems like a total waste of $340bn to me, but hey, it's your money. God knows we in the States have thrown a lot more money at futile efforts to change the immutable behaviors of various minority groups. You want to spend more than Australia's entire annual Federal budget, and if you achieve your intended effect, which cannot be guaranteed, you will only benefit less than 2% of the population. An idea as stupidly energetic and far-reaching in scope as this could only have come from academia, the place where common sense goes to die. I’m a Yank so I can provide an objective opinion, which is that economically, your idea is TOTALLY INSANE. Let’s leave aside the issue of whether or not it would actually cost $50K a person a year to improve Aboriginal health, which seems wildly overstated to me. Why should 21 million non-Aboriginal Australians pay anything, let alone over $16,000 each ($340 billion divided by 21 million) to “close the gap”? Economically and ethically, the rest of Australia owes the Aborigines NOTHING. The only people responsible for the health of the Aborigines are the Aborigines themselves, and if the Aborigines want the benefits of living longer, then they should pay the costs, not everyone else in the country. They are adults, right, responsible for their own behavior and capable of independent thought? If not, then I assume your plan includes adult supervision for all 400,000 Aborigines, to ensure they eat and exercise properly, and avoid smoking and excessive alcohol. But I’m guessing that approach is ruled out as “racist”.

Ironically, to the extent that the “gap” results from Aboriginal genetics and cultural behavior, you could wind up throwing $340bn at the problem and still not reduce the gap. (Again, I assume changing their behavior is off the table, being racist and all that.) And if you do close the “gap”, what do you get for your $340bn? 6,800,000 person-years of Aborigines sitting on the couch watching TV in an alcoholic stupor. Hooray for central planning! Seems like a total waste of $340bn to me, but hey, it’s your money. God knows we in the States have thrown a lot more money at futile efforts to change the immutable behaviors of various minority groups.

You want to spend more than Australia’s entire annual Federal budget, and if you achieve your intended effect, which cannot be guaranteed, you will only benefit less than 2% of the population. An idea as stupidly energetic and far-reaching in scope as this could only have come from academia, the place where common sense goes to die.

]]> By: Margaret Bozik http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41173 Margaret Bozik Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:31:17 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41173 It reminds me of a story about a group of scientists in the 1980s who were frustrated that all their environmental arguments for Western Australia switching from coal-fired electricity to natural gas were falling on deaf ears. So they co-opted an economist who wrote a beautiful paper demonstrating how this switch would save millions of dollars every year (besides having a positive impact on the environment). Everyone agreed it was a wonderful idea. But it still wasn't implemented - because the coal miners whose jobs would have been at risk all lived in a marginal electorate and neither political party was willing to risk electoral defeat over a policy that would save both money and the environment. It reminds me of a story about a group of scientists in the 1980s who were frustrated that all their environmental arguments for Western Australia switching from coal-fired electricity to natural gas were falling on deaf ears. So they co-opted an economist who wrote a beautiful paper demonstrating how this switch would save millions of dollars every year (besides having a positive impact on the environment). Everyone agreed it was a wonderful idea. But it still wasn’t implemented - because the coal miners whose jobs would have been at risk all lived in a marginal electorate and neither political party was willing to risk electoral defeat over a policy that would save both money and the environment.

]]> By: James Bennett http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41170 James Bennett Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:11:38 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41170 Hey Mooney From a purely finiancial point of view it would be much better if they died sooner, the country saves 17 years worth of paid benefits. It would also save us a quite a bit if some of the sick and older white buggers could drop off the perch a little earlier as well. I'm not advocating any of this but the logic behind your article is rubbish. You are stupid even for an economist. Hey Mooney

From a purely finiancial point of view it would be much better if they died sooner, the country saves 17 years worth of paid benefits.

It would also save us a quite a bit if some of the sick and older white buggers could drop off the perch a little earlier as well.

I’m not advocating any of this but the logic behind your article is rubbish.

You are stupid even for an economist.

]]> By: jungarrayi http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41165 jungarrayi Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:00:01 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41165 "... On the latter the extent of mainstreaming that the government is indulging in is worrying....." As someone (non-indigenous) living on a "Prescribed Area" under the NTER (Northern Territory Emergency Response) that sentence resonated the most with me. As for "Closing the Gap", when it became a political catch-cry some local residents thought it referred to The Gap in Alice Springs or The Gap Hotel even!!! My take on "the Gap" is that it is a shibboleth... an ethnocentrically defined gap. I don't know how you measure such as "social cohesion" etc. but I suspect that the "gap" measured on such criteria would come up with surprising results, that would go some way to debunking the recent politically driven stimatization of remote Aboriginal Australia. “… On the latter the extent of mainstreaming that the government is indulging in is worrying…..”
As someone (non-indigenous) living on a “Prescribed Area” under the NTER (Northern Territory Emergency Response) that sentence resonated the most with me.
As for “Closing the Gap”, when it became a political catch-cry some local residents thought it referred to The Gap in Alice Springs or The Gap Hotel even!!!
My take on “the Gap” is that it is a shibboleth… an ethnocentrically defined gap.
I don’t know how you measure such as “social cohesion” etc. but I suspect that the “gap” measured on such criteria would come up with surprising results, that would go some way to debunking the recent politically driven stimatization of remote Aboriginal Australia.

]]> By: Claire Tedeschi http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41105 Claire Tedeschi Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:37:23 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/14/is-it-helpful-to-think-about-closing-the-gap-as-an-economic-rather-than-ethical-issue/#comment-41105 Lots of good questions in this piece. Readers may be interested to look at some economic modelling Reconciliation Australia commissioned last year from Access Economics around closing the gap. It concluded there is a “clear economic justification for government action to reduce Indigenous disadvantage”, based on a reduction in the burden of disease and an improvement in the ability of Indigenous Australians to contribute to and share economic prosperity. More details are on our website at reconciliation.org.au Lots of good questions in this piece. Readers may be interested to look at some economic modelling Reconciliation Australia commissioned last year from Access Economics around closing the gap. It concluded there is a “clear economic justification for government action to reduce Indigenous disadvantage”, based on a reduction in the burden of disease and an improvement in the ability of Indigenous Australians to contribute to and share economic prosperity. More details are on our website at reconciliation.org.au

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