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	<title>Comments on: Gordon Brown, dead PM walking</title>
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		<title>By: Venise Alstergren</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39546</link>
		<dc:creator>Venise Alstergren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39546</guid>
		<description>Matthew, my research was done in person. At the time I was living in Charles Street in Prahran, Victoria. Shortly after arriving there Stonnington Council suddenly declared us to be living in a tourist area.

All too soon legions of young hoons started appearing on our streets, not that they were particularly badly behaved. If you came across them before they reached all the nightclubs which had suddenly appeared out of nowhere. They were quite polite. In fact-this sounds a bit rambling but the point may be germane. David Flint had made a particularly fatuous, even by his standards, comment that today&#039;s youth were all in favour of remaining a monarchy.

Fascinated/non- believing of this c/rap, I armed myself with a large notebook and went out to ask them their opinions in person. I soon knew David Flint was lying after receiving questions such as &quot;What&#039;s a monarchy?&quot; &quot;What&#039;s it to us?&quot; &quot;Who&#039;s the idiot who reckons an old bird in England runs Oz, &#039;cause I don&#039;t.&quot; . WTF are yer talkin&#039; about?&quot; These kids weren&#039;t illiterate, they spoke with reasonable voices, and the only things they did which were objectionable was to toss their syringes into everyones gardens, pee into our gardens, have loud doof doof music belting out of their cars, and using the street as a drag strip.

Everyone in the neighbourhood who went to the cinema knew about  the parents who dropped off their kids at The Jam Factory, gave them -usually a  fifty dollar 
note-and told them to make their own way home after they&#039;d spent it all. Saturdays were a good time to see the very young kids who were hanging out together. They had gone from being kids on their own to small groups of individuals.  Being from suburbs like Bon Beach, Frankston, Brighton, etc, they began to arrive with friends  from the same area. How did I know these things? Because I used to talk to them and ask them questions. On Saturdays you could see a small group of them hanging around outside Coles bottle shop in Chapel Street, hoping to find a tall kid to buy them a packet of cigarettes.  Or trying to get past the bouncers at clubs like Evolution.  Although not all that many of them smoked-or this is how I seem to remember it.

I lived in Charles Street for ten years and having been a photographer I tended to remember faces, bodies, ways of dressing. I did try collecting number plates of cars driven by their parents who dropped them off to spend their money and come home when it was gone. I did try to interest the police. But the area is big and the numbers of police thin on the ground.

In the shift to my present address lots of my stuff was lost in transit. Including heaps of research stretching back to my days at Uni. A great and deep loss. All I have to give you is my conclusions, based on a fair bit of effort.(You try  being a woman armed with a clip-board and a pen on a Saturday night in the heart of nightclub land. It&#039;s not the most comfortable of situations, and being good-looking I spent a lot of my time trying to convince men I wasn&#039;t for rent.

I&#039;ve done my best for you. You are the one to decide if it is the truth that I speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew, my research was done in person. At the time I was living in Charles Street in Prahran, Victoria. Shortly after arriving there Stonnington Council suddenly declared us to be living in a tourist area.</p>
<p>All too soon legions of young hoons started appearing on our streets, not that they were particularly badly behaved. If you came across them before they reached all the nightclubs which had suddenly appeared out of nowhere. They were quite polite. In fact-this sounds a bit rambling but the point may be germane. David Flint had made a particularly fatuous, even by his standards, comment that today&#8217;s youth were all in favour of remaining a monarchy.</p>
<p>Fascinated/non- believing of this c/rap, I armed myself with a large notebook and went out to ask them their opinions in person. I soon knew David Flint was lying after receiving questions such as &#8220;What&#8217;s a monarchy?&#8221; &#8220;What&#8217;s it to us?&#8221; &#8220;Who&#8217;s the idiot who reckons an old bird in England runs Oz, &#8216;cause I don&#8217;t.&#8221; . WTF are yer talkin&#8217; about?&#8221; These kids weren&#8217;t illiterate, they spoke with reasonable voices, and the only things they did which were objectionable was to toss their syringes into everyones gardens, pee into our gardens, have loud doof doof music belting out of their cars, and using the street as a drag strip.</p>
<p>Everyone in the neighbourhood who went to the cinema knew about  the parents who dropped off their kids at The Jam Factory, gave them -usually a  fifty dollar<br />
note-and told them to make their own way home after they&#8217;d spent it all. Saturdays were a good time to see the very young kids who were hanging out together. They had gone from being kids on their own to small groups of individuals.  Being from suburbs like Bon Beach, Frankston, Brighton, etc, they began to arrive with friends  from the same area. How did I know these things? Because I used to talk to them and ask them questions. On Saturdays you could see a small group of them hanging around outside Coles bottle shop in Chapel Street, hoping to find a tall kid to buy them a packet of cigarettes.  Or trying to get past the bouncers at clubs like Evolution.  Although not all that many of them smoked-or this is how I seem to remember it.</p>
<p>I lived in Charles Street for ten years and having been a photographer I tended to remember faces, bodies, ways of dressing. I did try collecting number plates of cars driven by their parents who dropped them off to spend their money and come home when it was gone. I did try to interest the police. But the area is big and the numbers of police thin on the ground.</p>
<p>In the shift to my present address lots of my stuff was lost in transit. Including heaps of research stretching back to my days at Uni. A great and deep loss. All I have to give you is my conclusions, based on a fair bit of effort.(You try  being a woman armed with a clip-board and a pen on a Saturday night in the heart of nightclub land. It&#8217;s not the most comfortable of situations, and being good-looking I spent a lot of my time trying to convince men I wasn&#8217;t for rent.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done my best for you. You are the one to decide if it is the truth that I speak.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Davies</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39500</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39500</guid>
		<description>Venise my point is that media has demonised a whole new class of people which wouldnt be acceptable if these people were of a certain race or ethnic background. I can point to lots of evidence of this phenomenon i.e opinion pieces, TV shows, websites that look down on chavs/bogans and give them a hard time.

Can you show me your &quot;research&quot; please ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Venise my point is that media has demonised a whole new class of people which wouldnt be acceptable if these people were of a certain race or ethnic background. I can point to lots of evidence of this phenomenon i.e opinion pieces, TV shows, websites that look down on chavs/bogans and give them a hard time.</p>
<p>Can you show me your &#8220;research&#8221; please ?</p>
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		<title>By: Venise Alstergren</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39471</link>
		<dc:creator>Venise Alstergren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 05:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39471</guid>
		<description>MATTHEW DAVIES: As a member of the Republican Party, I refuse to answer your question as I deem it to be beneath my dignity. However, doubtless you would be prepared to walk down the Queens Street anytime after midnight and before 5am in the morning and be forgiving of the way a gang of these teenaged hoons as they beat the shit out of you. And when you wake up in the emergency ward of The Alfred Hospital, if they haven&#039;t punched out your lights and your eyes, you will be handing out petitions to raise money for them to learn acceptable behaviour. Oh yeah?

Of course, if you really wanted to do some good you would wait for two or three days and nights at your nearest multi-cinema complex-the Jam Factory is an ideal spot. There you would see parents disgorging their twelve to fourteen year old boys from the family car before giving them a $50 note each and saying &quot;When you&#039;ve spent this come home&quot;. Naturally these kids bored witless,  join up
with other juvenile rejects. They form gangs and they graduate to beating the bejesus out of anyone who catches their eye.

This of course, is nothing to do with education and all the other goodies these kids apparently need. FACT: What they do need are responsible parents. It is the stupid neglect of parents and the desire to earn the admiration of their peer groups which are the determining factors.

If you are going to argue the toss with anyone who has different views to you, it is always a good idea to do some research. You see, I did do the research, and I gave number plates IDs to the local constabulary. Who could not have cared less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MATTHEW DAVIES: As a member of the Republican Party, I refuse to answer your question as I deem it to be beneath my dignity. However, doubtless you would be prepared to walk down the Queens Street anytime after midnight and before 5am in the morning and be forgiving of the way a gang of these teenaged hoons as they beat the shit out of you. And when you wake up in the emergency ward of The Alfred Hospital, if they haven&#8217;t punched out your lights and your eyes, you will be handing out petitions to raise money for them to learn acceptable behaviour. Oh yeah?</p>
<p>Of course, if you really wanted to do some good you would wait for two or three days and nights at your nearest multi-cinema complex-the Jam Factory is an ideal spot. There you would see parents disgorging their twelve to fourteen year old boys from the family car before giving them a $50 note each and saying &#8220;When you&#8217;ve spent this come home&#8221;. Naturally these kids bored witless,  join up<br />
with other juvenile rejects. They form gangs and they graduate to beating the bejesus out of anyone who catches their eye.</p>
<p>This of course, is nothing to do with education and all the other goodies these kids apparently need. FACT: What they do need are responsible parents. It is the stupid neglect of parents and the desire to earn the admiration of their peer groups which are the determining factors.</p>
<p>If you are going to argue the toss with anyone who has different views to you, it is always a good idea to do some research. You see, I did do the research, and I gave number plates IDs to the local constabulary. Who could not have cared less.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Davies</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39411</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39411</guid>
		<description>Venise: so when you have Princes William &amp; Harry attending &quot;chavs&quot; parties and mocking the poor - thats acceptable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Venise: so when you have Princes William &amp; Harry attending &#8220;chavs&#8221; parties and mocking the poor - thats acceptable?</p>
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		<title>By: HughG</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39408</link>
		<dc:creator>HughG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39408</guid>
		<description>Interestingly it has been revealed that while the ID card in the UK will not be compulsory per se, the home office will require any British citizen who wishes to return from travel in the EU to the UK to have one, anyone who has a passport will be required to have one, and anyone with a drivers licence. So unless you are happy to spend your entire life in the UK and not drive a car, they will actually be compulsory.

Nice election promise Gordon Brown!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly it has been revealed that while the ID card in the UK will not be compulsory per se, the home office will require any British citizen who wishes to return from travel in the EU to the UK to have one, anyone who has a passport will be required to have one, and anyone with a drivers licence. So unless you are happy to spend your entire life in the UK and not drive a car, they will actually be compulsory.</p>
<p>Nice election promise Gordon Brown!</p>
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		<title>By: Jackson Minter</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39404</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackson Minter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39404</guid>
		<description>Bit unfair to John Rawls, Guy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bit unfair to John Rawls, Guy?</p>
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		<title>By: Dianne Calistro</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39395</link>
		<dc:creator>Dianne Calistro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39395</guid>
		<description>And the national debt, that statistic that makes the nation stand out like a lighthouse????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the national debt, that statistic that makes the nation stand out like a lighthouse????</p>
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		<title>By: Venise Alstergren</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39382</link>
		<dc:creator>Venise Alstergren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39382</guid>
		<description>GUY RUNDLE: Excellent-as usual-article. However, I have one or two qualms about it.
&quot;local councils to close down whole areas of 24 hour drinking&quot;. What a gem of an idea!

So, increased opportunity, class mobility, rewards from initiative for the lowest 20% make for a better behaved young pissant? You have to be kidding. Oz children who beat up  other people, who cast fear and trepidation to passers by, kids who thrash the s/hit out of people people on racist grounds and who epitomize everything that is delivered in that excellent word &#039;Hoon&#039;. Are you trying to tell us that Oz kids are also suffering from this class conscience thingo? I don&#039;t think so. After all, we produce a lot better educated class of hoons in Australia.

To excuse &#039;youwths&#039;  who behave so appallingly on the basis they haven&#039;t had a fair go, is nothing short of bulls/hit. You cannot be serious. There is always a lower class in every society. No community can be without a lower class, a middle class, and an upper middle-class  and to think otherwise is shockingly naïve and does no-one any favours. This is politically correct madness. 

I would have to ask you if political correctness has delivered a certain high-mindedness in our society, humanity, if you prefer, or has it produced a society of second-guessers, blamers on every front and certifiably witless and self-righteous bigots? (Look up &#039;home birthing&#039; if you want confirmation of what I&#039;m saying).

MATHEW DAVIES: &quot;sneering down at these people&quot;. If people behave like s/hit they should have to learn to live as s/hit.

RICHARD WILSON: I agree with you totally and utterly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GUY RUNDLE: Excellent-as usual-article. However, I have one or two qualms about it.<br />
&#8220;local councils to close down whole areas of 24 hour drinking&#8221;. What a gem of an idea!</p>
<p>So, increased opportunity, class mobility, rewards from initiative for the lowest 20% make for a better behaved young pissant? You have to be kidding. Oz children who beat up  other people, who cast fear and trepidation to passers by, kids who thrash the s/hit out of people people on racist grounds and who epitomize everything that is delivered in that excellent word &#8216;Hoon&#8217;. Are you trying to tell us that Oz kids are also suffering from this class conscience thingo? I don&#8217;t think so. After all, we produce a lot better educated class of hoons in Australia.</p>
<p>To excuse &#8216;youwths&#8217;  who behave so appallingly on the basis they haven&#8217;t had a fair go, is nothing short of bulls/hit. You cannot be serious. There is always a lower class in every society. No community can be without a lower class, a middle class, and an upper middle-class  and to think otherwise is shockingly naïve and does no-one any favours. This is politically correct madness. </p>
<p>I would have to ask you if political correctness has delivered a certain high-mindedness in our society, humanity, if you prefer, or has it produced a society of second-guessers, blamers on every front and certifiably witless and self-righteous bigots? (Look up &#8216;home birthing&#8217; if you want confirmation of what I&#8217;m saying).</p>
<p>MATHEW DAVIES: &#8220;sneering down at these people&#8221;. If people behave like s/hit they should have to learn to live as s/hit.</p>
<p>RICHARD WILSON: I agree with you totally and utterly.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Davies</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39365</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39365</guid>
		<description>&quot;Rather than solve the problem of anti-social behaviour by atatcking it at its root — ie that you’re anti-social if society is anti-you, if it excludes you, scorns you, denies you even the possibility of opportunity — new Labour then treated citizens as behavioural units, to be shaped, prodded, nudged and manipulated into good behaviour.&quot;

I think one of the problems in the past few years has been the rise of the &quot;chav&quot; culture - not the actual chav culture itself (we&#039;ve always had working classes) but the actual phenomenon of majority of people/media sneering down at these people thus marginalising them even more. Its like we can&#039;t laugh at blacks or pakis anymore so lets laugh at white trash. Its a disturbing trend and one noticeable in Australia recently with the increasing use of  &quot;bogan&quot; as an insult (and even ironic &quot;fauxgan&quot; found in trendy sydney/melbourne suburbs). Witness Magda Szbanski in the recent &quot;Who Is Australia&#039;s Biggest Bogan&quot; type show on Channel 10 (and Magda should know all about pillorying after the recent Klye attacks). What is this? Now John Howard has gone and were not racist any more, the only people we can mock are those who are poorer than us? What happened to the &quot;great mates&quot; and &quot;fair go&quot; for all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>Rather than solve the problem of anti-social behaviour by atatcking it at its root — ie that you’re anti-social if society is anti-you, if it excludes you, scorns you, denies you even the possibility of opportunity — new Labour then treated citizens as behavioural units, to be shaped, prodded, nudged and manipulated into good behaviour.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think one of the problems in the past few years has been the rise of the &#8220;chav&#8221; culture - not the actual chav culture itself (we&#8217;ve always had working classes) but the actual phenomenon of majority of people/media sneering down at these people thus marginalising them even more. Its like we can&#8217;t laugh at blacks or pakis anymore so lets laugh at white trash. Its a disturbing trend and one noticeable in Australia recently with the increasing use of  &#8220;bogan&#8221; as an insult (and even ironic &#8220;fauxgan&#8221; found in trendy sydney/melbourne suburbs). Witness Magda Szbanski in the recent &#8220;Who Is Australia&#8217;s Biggest Bogan&#8221; type show on Channel 10 (and Magda should know all about pillorying after the recent Klye attacks). What is this? Now John Howard has gone and were not racist any more, the only people we can mock are those who are poorer than us? What happened to the &#8220;great mates&#8221; and &#8220;fair go&#8221; for all?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39332</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 04:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39332</guid>
		<description>Sadly for the Brits, I believe that all major UK parties including UKIP are owned by the oligarchy. It doesn&#039;t make any difference what they do. The people will need to vote independent to get any change of the status quo. If the Cameron crowd get in, it will be bombing, bailouts and backhanders as usual in my humble opinion. The only difference will be that the people will have to deal with a new group of misappropriators of truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly for the Brits, I believe that all major UK parties including UKIP are owned by the oligarchy. It doesn&#8217;t make any difference what they do. The people will need to vote independent to get any change of the status quo. If the Cameron crowd get in, it will be bombing, bailouts and backhanders as usual in my humble opinion. The only difference will be that the people will have to deal with a new group of misappropriators of truth.</p>
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		<title>By: mtats</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39328</link>
		<dc:creator>mtats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 04:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/30/rundle-nothing-that-brown-could-say-would-save-him/#comment-39328</guid>
		<description>Even in his death throes he still can&#039;t help the spin and double-talk.  

As unless i&#039;m mistaken, the COMPULSORY identity card won&#039;t be introduced &#039;in the next parliament&#039;, and is not cancelled altogether. 

 Even more pathetically, the actual national database of identities will still be going ahead as planned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even in his death throes he still can&#8217;t help the spin and double-talk.  </p>
<p>As unless i&#8217;m mistaken, the COMPULSORY identity card won&#8217;t be introduced &#8216;in the next parliament&#8217;, and is not cancelled altogether. </p>
<p> Even more pathetically, the actual national database of identities will still be going ahead as planned.</p>
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