Comments on: The past and future of the Left http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 00:58:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: jack jones http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39837 jack jones Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:32:08 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39837 Interesting stuff as usual and well written. A genuine question though, to what extent do you think left change is largely an exercise driven by the latest distillation of political theory and to what extent is it the capacity to organise around some fairly basic common princples, fairness, environmental sustainability, etc. I don't in any way dismiss the intellectual exercise of ongoing analysis but wonder whether the lack of some universal driving theory a-la Marxism is really a problem for anyone other than theoreticians. I note that there was a lot of theoretical critique of the anti-globalisation movement which to me seemed a bit beside the point. Generating change is a difficult business, it has to start somewhere, forces of reaction are in some ways more sophisticated in Western countries these days (though arguably less directly violent), atomisation and isolation all contribute to make the making of change frikkin hard. I'm not so sure that the philosophy/coherency of overall reform or radical change might be a lot less important that in actually building the organising skills and pratical know-how. Probably haven't expressed this particularly well but its in some way connected with the tendency of the theortising class (not trying to use that pejoratively) to overemphasise its own importance. Interested in your thoughts. Interesting stuff as usual and well written. A genuine question though, to what extent do you think left change is largely an exercise driven by the latest distillation of political theory and to what extent is it the capacity to organise around some fairly basic common princples, fairness, environmental sustainability, etc. I don’t in any way dismiss the intellectual exercise of ongoing analysis but wonder whether the lack of some universal driving theory a-la Marxism is really a problem for anyone other than theoreticians. I note that there was a lot of theoretical critique of the anti-globalisation movement which to me seemed a bit beside the point. Generating change is a difficult business, it has to start somewhere, forces of reaction are in some ways more sophisticated in Western countries these days (though arguably less directly violent), atomisation and isolation all contribute to make the making of change frikkin hard. I’m not so sure that the philosophy/coherency of overall reform or radical change might be a lot less important that in actually building the organising skills and pratical know-how.
Probably haven’t expressed this particularly well but its in some way connected with the tendency of the theortising class (not trying to use that pejoratively) to overemphasise its own importance.
Interested in your thoughts.

]]> By: madeinaustralia http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39836 madeinaustralia Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:24:29 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39836 shit article, maybe some original thought or new concepts would shed some light. Unfortunatly not in this op-ed piece. shit article,

maybe some original thought or new concepts would shed some light.

Unfortunatly not in this op-ed piece.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39241 Daniel Tue, 29 Sep 2009 07:03:07 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39241 Hey Guy are we ever going to see the completed paragraph about China? Hey Guy are we ever going to see the completed paragraph about China?

]]> By: John Bennetts http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39132 John Bennetts Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:13:44 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39132 Meaty, inspirational, thought provoking. Also dangerous, a wild ride and threatening. Thanks, Guy, for a piece which stirs the grey matter and challenges orthodoxy and my own somewhat plastic world view. I don't have to agree with it all - probably nobody does - but reading and thinking about these things is worthwhile. Meaty, inspirational, thought provoking.

Also dangerous, a wild ride and threatening.

Thanks, Guy, for a piece which stirs the grey matter and challenges orthodoxy and my own somewhat plastic world view.

I don’t have to agree with it all - probably nobody does - but reading and thinking about these things is worthwhile.

]]> By: Guy Rundle http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39124 Guy Rundle Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:10:50 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39124 sorry, Thomas Richamn, cynicism? if anything a critique of the article would be its insouciant optimism. Re Sraffa, thanks Peter Jones for the tip. will read the book. Sraffra's 'production of commodities...' work is, as titled, 'prelude to a critique of economics....' but it does critique the implicitly metaphysical notions buried in the labour theory of value. For Sraffa, labour is one input as i understand it, and reformulating it in that way makes possible a capitalist society without profit - which removes one form of internal capitalist crisis as predicted by Marx. This rather quickly gets beyond my ken, but the main thing was to point the influence Sraffa's work had on late 70s marxism. sorry, Thomas Richamn, cynicism? if anything a critique of the article would be its insouciant optimism.

Re Sraffa, thanks Peter Jones for the tip. will read the book. Sraffra’s ‘production of commodities…’ work is, as titled, ‘prelude to a critique of economics….’ but it does critique the implicitly metaphysical notions buried in the labour theory of value. For Sraffa, labour is one input as i understand it, and reformulating it in that way makes possible a capitalist society without profit - which removes one form of internal capitalist crisis as predicted by Marx.
This rather quickly gets beyond my ken, but the main thing was to point the influence Sraffa’s work had on late 70s marxism.

]]> By: John Reidy http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39119 John Reidy Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:22:49 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39119 A great article, the scenerio of the powerplant is not so far fetched. I am sure there are actual cases in South America - where the water plants are now co-op operated. A question might be how does the cooperative power plant pay for its energy source. Imagine if you can a coal fired power plant (its black its dirty, its here). Also imagine a coal mine, recently foreclosed by the bank due to the indebtedness of the resource company owners. Just what is the real cost of mining coal, or producing power, when stripped of interest payments, advertising, management fees (and all of the capitalist overheads). If you add back in the cost of decommissioning the plant, environmental and social costs, I think you would still be ahead. A great article, the scenerio of the powerplant is not so far fetched. I am sure there are actual cases in South America - where the water plants are now co-op operated.

A question might be how does the cooperative power plant pay for its energy source.
Imagine if you can a coal fired power plant (its black its dirty, its here). Also imagine a coal mine, recently foreclosed by the bank due to the indebtedness of the resource company owners.

Just what is the real cost of mining coal, or producing power, when stripped of interest payments, advertising, management fees (and all of the capitalist overheads).

If you add back in the cost of decommissioning the plant, environmental and social costs, I think you would still be ahead.

]]> By: John Borger http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39117 John Borger Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:11:29 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39117 It may or may not be important, after all it's only a literary conceit, but the "pissant No Third Runway movement – it didn't even want a replacement airport" did in fact quickly evolve into the No Aircraft Noise movement/party. And it definitely campaigned for a replacement airport beyond Sydney's limits and linked to the city by a Very Fast Train. This was to be paid for by the development of the superceded Mascot site. No Aircraft Noise was seen by some as an example of the very self-management (or democratic planning and control) impulse that Guy, later in his piece, foreshadows as at the heart of the revolution to come. For the record, just in case people jump for the NIMBY label to hang on this moment, No Aircraft Noise also rejected the second airport proposed for Badgery's Creek in the western suburbs precisely because it would just transfer the noise to other residents. It may or may not be important, after all it’s only a literary conceit, but the “pissant No Third Runway movement – it didn’t even want a replacement airport” did in fact quickly evolve into the No Aircraft Noise movement/party. And it definitely campaigned for a replacement airport beyond Sydney’s limits and linked to the city by a Very Fast Train. This was to be paid for by the development of the superceded Mascot site. No Aircraft Noise was seen by some as an example of the very self-management (or democratic planning and control) impulse that Guy, later in his piece, foreshadows as at the heart of the revolution to come. For the record, just in case people jump for the NIMBY label to hang on this moment, No Aircraft Noise also rejected the second airport proposed for Badgery’s Creek in the western suburbs precisely because it would just transfer the noise to other residents.

]]> By: Richard Murphy http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39106 Richard Murphy Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:21:04 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39106 The next global capitalist crisis? Try November- December 2010. My reasons will not impress people, either by straining their credulity or being 'too technical'. On verra. The next global capitalist crisis? Try November- December 2010. My reasons will not impress people, either by straining their credulity or being ‘too technical’. On verra.

]]> By: Thomas Richman http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39101 Thomas Richman Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:53:05 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39101 Why is there no mention of all the popular and successful socialist movements in Latin America? I guess their existences were too counter to Guy's cynicism to warrant a reference. Why is there no mention of all the popular and successful socialist movements in Latin America? I guess their existences were too counter to Guy’s cynicism to warrant a reference.

]]> By: Tom McLoughlin http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39084 Tom McLoughlin Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:41:46 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39084 As Inspector Gagdget would say "wowsers". The incomplete sentence I think may be intentional with this "... the sh*t will hit the fan." I did recognise myself in a fair bit of this. Some of it was over my head not being economics trained. I commented just a bit earlier re the G20 thingy by BK: "And still we have no destination on the other side of the chasm for the stimulus caboose #1 and #2 to land after taking a jump into the thin air / religious faith of market based growth economics. It’s a race against time really - the hurricane in Brisbane or the caboose hitting the bottom. After Gittins recently we can be sure a hurricane will be good for GDP but not so good for wellbeing." That's all a bit spooky really. Also I was the one with the no third runway placard, an ex girlfriend a staffer building the 3rd runway (res ipsa loquitur), and for me it was about the airshed pollution killing hundreds a year not the noise as such. As Inspector Gagdget would say “wowsers”.

The incomplete sentence I think may be intentional with this “… the sh*t will hit the fan.”

I did recognise myself in a fair bit of this. Some of it was over my head not being economics trained. I commented just a bit earlier re the G20 thingy by BK:

“And still we have no destination on the other side of the chasm for the stimulus caboose #1 and #2 to land after taking a jump into the thin air / religious faith of market based growth economics.

It’s a race against time really - the hurricane in Brisbane or the caboose hitting the bottom. After Gittins recently we can be sure a hurricane will be good for GDP but not so good for wellbeing.”

That’s all a bit spooky really. Also I was the one with the no third runway placard, an ex girlfriend a staffer building the 3rd runway (res ipsa loquitur), and for me it was about the airshed pollution killing hundreds a year not the noise as such.

]]> By: John Passant http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39082 John Passant Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:36:43 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39082 Written with Guy's usual aplomb and style, but some of the formulations appear to my mind incorrect (or perhaps generalisations that don't fit, especially the new left analysis.) The conclusion seems to be crisis is inevitable but mangers can run things seemingly without profit. There is no sense of struggle but more of inevitability. Now that may be misreading Guy but where is the democratisation and the change of the class from struggle and the expansion of democracy into the realm of production? And although Guy cites Sraffa he then appears to adopt the very Marxist analysis of crisis that Sraffa supposedly demolished. (In fact, as Peter Jones pointed out, Sraffa has been demolished.) He is right about the revolutionary left being small. Perhaps we do even sound like 2nd century Church fathers and I think we have much to learn from Guy about presenting the ideas of Marx and others in a way that is accessible to working people. But contrary to Guy's assertion, as far as I know no small revolutionary group on the left claims to represent the working class or even to being its vanguard. If they did then their connection with the reality of today is tenuous. Guy I think mistakes the present for the future in terms of class struggle. But we shall see. Thanks for a stimulating article Guy. Written with Guy’s usual aplomb and style, but some of the formulations appear to my mind incorrect (or perhaps generalisations that don’t fit, especially the new left analysis.)

The conclusion seems to be crisis is inevitable but mangers can run things seemingly without profit.

There is no sense of struggle but more of inevitability. Now that may be misreading Guy but where is the democratisation and the change of the class from struggle and the expansion of democracy into the realm of production?

And although Guy cites Sraffa he then appears to adopt the very Marxist analysis of crisis that Sraffa supposedly demolished. (In fact, as Peter Jones pointed out, Sraffa has been demolished.)

He is right about the revolutionary left being small. Perhaps we do even sound like 2nd century Church fathers and I think we have much to learn from Guy about presenting the ideas of Marx and others in a way that is accessible to working people.

But contrary to Guy’s assertion, as far as I know no small revolutionary group on the left claims to represent the working class or even to being its vanguard. If they did then their connection with the reality of today is tenuous.

Guy I think mistakes the present for the future in terms of class struggle. But we shall see.

Thanks for a stimulating article Guy.

]]> By: AR http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39075 AR Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:38:39 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39075 Jeez Guy, fair suck of the sav - how are we s'posed to read such a magnum opus between cooking dinner, changing nappies & getting shit faced? Jeez Guy, fair suck of the sav - how are we s’posed to read such a magnum opus between cooking dinner, changing nappies & getting shit faced?

]]> By: davidk http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39061 davidk Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:42:04 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39061 This was fantastic Guy, I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot. A bit bleary eyed by the end but very much worth the discomfort. I especially liked the bit about the rise of fundamentalist perspectives reminiscent of the middle ages. This was fantastic Guy, I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot. A bit bleary eyed by the end but very much worth the discomfort. I especially liked the bit about the rise of fundamentalist perspectives reminiscent of the middle ages.

]]> By: rasta arlen http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39060 rasta arlen Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:37:07 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39060 If nothing else, I truly feel that as a young person, I will be fortunate enough to live through one of the most interesting times in modern human history. I might feel a deep despair about what I am going to witness but I also can't wait to find out how this bit of the story ends... If nothing else, I truly feel that as a young person, I will be fortunate enough to live through one of the most interesting times in modern human history. I might feel a deep despair about what I am going to witness but I also can’t wait to find out how this bit of the story ends…

]]> By: paddy http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39059 paddy Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:30:48 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39059 Hell Guy, between you and that astronaut dog..... My Crikey subscription seems like a bloody good bargain!!! Stirling stuff today and I can't wait for the third instalment . Hell Guy, between you and that astronaut dog…..
My Crikey subscription seems like a bloody good bargain!!!

Stirling stuff today and I can’t wait for the third instalment .

]]> By: Paul Shirren http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39057 Paul Shirren Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:21:16 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39057 TL;DR TL;DR

]]> By: The Zebras http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39041 The Zebras Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:18:48 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39041 What he said. What he said.

]]> By: bird7755 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39030 bird7755 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:26:00 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39030 Simon, If that is what you think, then did you not miss guy's point? - of course, the internet will be around its just that we will have formed a very different society...... Simon,
If that is what you think, then did you not miss guy’s point? - of course, the internet will be around its just that we will have formed a very different society……

]]> By: Daniel http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39027 Daniel Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:19:56 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39027 "Its current social contract between city and country is that city people will get very rich, and offer country people the chance to make better money than back-breaking subsistence farming, with the prospect of intergenerational betterment. Once that slows, the" Bwaaaa??? “Its current social contract between city and country is that city people will get very rich, and offer country people the chance to make better money than back-breaking subsistence farming, with the prospect of intergenerational betterment. Once that slows, the”

Bwaaaa???

]]> By: archibald http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39023 archibald Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:16:17 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39023 Just a note on an error in the posted text - the end of the para on China is missing. It stops at: "Once that slows, the" Otherwise, thanks Guy. Very interesting. Just a note on an error in the posted text - the end of the para on China is missing. It stops at: “Once that slows, the”

Otherwise, thanks Guy. Very interesting.

]]> By: Simon Wilkins http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39003 Simon Wilkins Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:26:22 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39003 Wow! This effort reads like how to go from a Leftie to survivalist in 5,000 words. Too bad the internet and all the infrastructure that would prove Guy wrote this won't be around if he is right...does that count as irony? Wow! This effort reads like how to go from a Leftie to survivalist in 5,000 words. Too bad the internet and all the infrastructure that would prove Guy wrote this won’t be around if he is right…does that count as irony?

]]> By: Peter Jones http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39002 Peter Jones Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:23:27 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-39002 Re: Sraffa again Andrew Kliman's "Reclaiming Marx's 'Capital': A Refutation of the Myth of Inconsistency" demolishes Sraffa's critique of Marx's labour theory of value and is highly accessible to a lay audience. Shame it wasn't published until 2007, and it's also a shame Rundle hasn't read it. Re: Sraffa again

Andrew Kliman’s “Reclaiming Marx’s ‘Capital’: A Refutation of the Myth of Inconsistency” demolishes Sraffa’s critique of Marx’s labour theory of value and is highly accessible to a lay audience. Shame it wasn’t published until 2007, and it’s also a shame Rundle hasn’t read it.

]]> By: Dan http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-38987 Dan Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:55:41 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-38987 Wow. Rundle - allow me to express my undying gratitude for that behemoth. You should think about pulling all of this into book ala DTTC. Although who to cross out (keynes?) and who to have the cigar (keen?) is a dilemma worth drinking on. Wow.

Rundle - allow me to express my undying gratitude for that behemoth. You should think about pulling all of this into book ala DTTC. Although who to cross out (keynes?) and who to have the cigar (keen?) is a dilemma worth drinking on.

]]> By: Michael Beggs http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-38981 Michael Beggs Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:40:42 +0000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/28/rundle-the-slow-death-of-the-unified-left/#comment-38981 Great piece, Guy. Re: Sraffa - another claim to sub-fame was his supply of books, magazines, pens and paper to his old comrade Antonio Gramsci in prison, as well as maintaining a scholarly correspondence and helping the campaign for his release. Incidentally, Sraffa himself did not intend 'The Production of Commodities...' as an attack on Marxian value theory, only on neoclassical general equilibrium theory. It was not intended as a constructive theory at all; it is not dynamic, does not deal with money or effective demand or have anything to say about disequilibrium. Cheers, Mike scandalum.wordpress.com Great piece, Guy.

Re: Sraffa - another claim to sub-fame was his supply of books, magazines, pens and paper to his old comrade Antonio Gramsci in prison, as well as maintaining a scholarly correspondence and helping the campaign for his release. Incidentally, Sraffa himself did not intend ‘The Production of Commodities…’ as an attack on Marxian value theory, only on neoclassical general equilibrium theory. It was not intended as a constructive theory at all; it is not dynamic, does not deal with money or effective demand or have anything to say about disequilibrium.

Cheers,
Mike
scandalum.wordpress.com

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