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Abortion stand-off continues — and Queenslanders pay
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The case of the young Cairns couple charged with procuring an abortion will now proceed to a jury trial in the District Court, although the date for this has not been set and may be months away. Meanwhile, the couple, on bail, are hunkered down in a new and hopefully secure residence following the intense publicity the case has generated for them and a firebomb attack on their previous home. The prosecution of the couple led Queensland doctors to renew their approaches to government to clarify Queensland’s antiquated abortion laws — requests which have so far resulted only in tinkering with section 282 of the Criminal Code, which provides a defence for a doctor charged with abortion, so that “medical” abortion with drugs as well as a “surgical procedure” may also be undertaken if the woman’s life is in danger. In conversation, the Deputy Premier and Health Minister has stated that he believes that the woman’s “life” means the wider interpretation taken by Judge McGuire in the last prosecution of a Queensland doctor for abortion, Dr Peter Bayliss, in 1986. (Dr Bayliss was acquitted.) McGuire includes the woman’s health and social circumstances, depending “on the reasonableness of the case”. Doctors are taking the view that if that is what “life” means then it should be written into the law. Basically, doctors don’t want to be committing a crime when they perform an abortion in good faith, having discussed the nature, implications and risks of the procedure with the woman concerned and obtained informed consent. Abortion in Queensland still remains a crime for the woman, her doctor and any person assisting. The existence of section 282 provides but little reassurance to doctors, who would have to appear in court to invoke the section. Doctors believe that abortion should be decriminalised — for themselves, but particularly for the women they care for. The Deputy Premier has also said that “there have been no prosecutions of doctors for the last 23 years, and 14,000 abortions each year in Queensland; so I think it must be a pretty good law” — a fairly convoluted opinion, no matter how you look at it. Certainly there has been a prosecution of a woman — a prosecution that is ongoing. Doctors previously performing medical abortions in Queensland hospitals have continued their ban on the procedures. A large number of legal opinions have now been obtained on the position of abortion (surgical as well as medical) in the Queensland Criminal Code. Individual doctors and hospitals have their own opinions as has the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RANZCOG). The legal eagles are in an unusual state of absolute agreement with each other: the situation is unclear, whether doctors would be indemnified by Queensland Health and/or private organisations in the event of either a criminal or civil case being brought is equally unclear, and medical practitioners are advised against carrying out abortion until there is complete legal clarity. So in increasing numbers, and funded by Queensland Health, Queensland women are crossing state borders to obtain abortion. Many other Queensland women finding themselves with an unplanned pregnancy are undoubtedly making private arrangements for interstate abortion – thereby demonstrating one of the oldest established truths of abortion practice: when a woman has made the decision about abortion for herself, and is unable to access that abortion in her place of residence, she will do whatever it takes to travel to where abortion is available. Estimates of numbers transferred interstate by Queensland Health, all women with either severe abnormalities diagnosed in the foetus, or serious illness themselves, are of 40-50 women. There have also been intra-state transfers of women from country areas to larger towns or cities, where surgical abortion has been performed for them — these are women for whom medical abortion would have been medically preferable, or who had requested medical abortion. The cost to Queensland Health so far must be well into in the six-figure range. Doctors working for Queensland Health are not permitted to speak to the media nor will Queensland Health speak on their behalf. RANZCOG through our President Dr Ted Weaver has however repeatedly spoken up on behalf of doctors, and has attempted negotiations with government, as have other prominent medical figures — unfortunately so far with little effect. Another established truth about abortion is that when a woman makes this decision for herself, and cannot access safe services, she may well attempt her own abortion. The Cairns couple have told media that they were unaware that medical abortion was (at the time of their alleged crime) available in Cairns. Their solution to this problem was (allegedly) was to organise the illegal importation of recognised abortion drugs — something we are well aware is happening frequently in Australia. It is the fervent hope of all Queensland doctors involved in the current impasse that no women suffers adverse physical consequences from attempts at self-abortion. Of course none of these transfers are good for the women concerned. Undergoing an abortion, especially a late medical abortion done for severe foetal abnormality diagnosed relatively late in a wanted pregnancy, is an extraordinarily difficult procedure for a woman to go through. Early abortion for a woman in difficult medical or social circumstances is also challenging for the woman. Adding the need to travel, often unaccompanied and often to an unknown city, to the abortion process itself, is resulting in truly traumatic experiences for women. All doctors involved regret this sincerely, and every effort is made to support women in these circumstances, but nevertheless the procedures are devastating for many of these women. The solution is for the Premier to exercise some leadership and instigate reforms that will benefit women and give legal certainty to doctors. The debate is not about whether Queensland should or should not have abortion — we already have it — and that will not change. All involved on both sides of the debate agree that lowering abortion rates is highly desirable, but we cannot even start on that until we have recognition of what actually happens in Queensland. Denial of the reality of abortion, as in the responses of the Health Minister, is not helpful. We need to understand why abortion rates in Queensland, as in the rest of Australia, are so much higher than in comparable European countries. Better contraception information and services and better and earlier sex education are almost certainly the answer to lowering rates — but the necessary research and discussion cannot proceed until we acknowledge that abortion is an important issue for all Queensland women. If the Premier is unable to take on the task herself then the relevant sections of the Criminal Code should be sent to the state’s Law Reform Commission — whose job it is to reform the law- and appropriate recommendations sent back to Parliament. As soon as possible Professor Caroline de Costa is from James Cook University, Cairns. |
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23 Comments
I know Caroline de Costa has been writing on this topic for several years and it is ironic that this couple got into trouble in Cairns where medication induced abortion has been to a large extent (EDIT) championed by her.
However the urgency she is pushing now is a false one caused by doctors refusing to provide the service that they previously gave despite the Deputy Premier correctly pointing out that “there have been no prosecutions of doctors for the last 23 years, and 14,000 abortions each year in Queensland”(probably an underestimate).
There is no real otherwise practical urgency at all.
The abortion rate in Australia, which Dr. De Costa alludes to, is a national disgrace and needs to be addressed. The recent Victorian legislation is also, in my opinion, a national disgrace which does nothing to address that rate but seemingly much to encourage it and also to stretches the ethical bounds in terms of quite radical advances in the lateness of application of the ‘legality’ of induced/instrumental abortion and no clarity on the difference between active killing of the neonate/foetus and passive allowing of death after/during instrumental abortion.
The decline in the Roman Empire was at least in part arguably due to moral decline. What of Western Cultural Democracies where perhaps 0.5-1% of the population in numbers are culled annually, and conveniently, before they are legally acknowledged human lives?
What would our forefathers think of that? What will future generations view be?
This is just too awful for words. This young couple shouldn’t have to go through this trauma. If the Federal Govt passed Legislation making the use of RU486 or it’s equivalent able to be used in Australia, why are these people being charged with a crime? Because they didn’t get the drugs from a registered medical doctor in this country? I don’t understand what laws have been broken. The sooner abortion is decriminalized throughout the whole country the better. This is just madness! They probably thought they had no choice!
The medicare number for an abortion is the same for a D & C for other reasons isn’t it? Is this what is making the stats higher? Contrary to the nonsense often portrayed by the likes of Today Tonight or A Current Affair programs, the ages of women seeking a termination are not the very young. They’re women from 25 - 40. When do women become of age? When are we perceived to be quite capable of making our own decisions, without some person(frequently male and not even a parent; a priest - don’t have one hint of what it’s like?) stipulating what we can or can’t do on our own? Or with our partner or husband? It’s a nonsense and is insulting! We’re OK to raise kids, be doctors, teachers, professors, lawyers, sales people, tailors and advisers to govts etc, but not intelligent enough or competent enough to listen to the medical expert(re some awful genetic and disabling condition) and then make our own decision! This situation only adds further grief and anguish to an already distressed woman.
As the majority of abortions are for unplanned and unwanted pregnancies, why isn’t there more information about contraception. Why isn’t there more education for males? Why are men still engaging in sexual activities without any sense of responsibility? If all sexually active males refused to have sex without a condom(if they didn’t want a child) the problem would almost disappear - although no conctraception is 100% effective! Suggest that there be educational ads on TV or radio, and the Catholic Church and its proponents(like Abbott and James Wallace) will start accusing the govt of promoting promiscuity? I recall Barnaby Joyce’s response to the immunisation against cervical cancer, until someone told him to shut up! He said it would increase promiscuity - didn’t castigate the males though? Probably recalling his own irresponsible youth? They just make me fume! So does Anna Bligh! Weak!
Anna Bligh is off on another planet. This couple will not be convicted by a jury, it is simply a non issue for the great majority of the community. Alex
Ah, Queensland: modern one day, medieval the next.
From an ashamed Qld resident.
What particularly obstinate Queensland official has decided to pursue this case. Unless a hand-picked jury is selected, the probability of a conviction is minimal. Prosecutions of doctors for abortion were never successful in the 1960s, and the laws were liberalised. The only time that abortion became hard to get in Victoria in the 1960s was when the homicide squad had a largely catholic element- traditionally non-catholics looked after abortion and catholics looked after liquor licensing and gaming. This arrangement kept everyone happy, especially the police who enriched themselves. The going price for an abortion in that era was 75 guineas or more than a month’s gross wages for a typical woman of 21. This led to less affluent people patronising knitting needle operators with serious after-effects.
For goodness sake can someone in Queensland drop this case before any further embarrassment occurs. Surely the young couple have suffered enough unwarranted trauma.
This is as perfect as case as could be imagined by Joseph K, a bureaucratic behemoth unable to respond to reason once trundling along, not malevolent in intent but necessarily in effect.
Michael Dwyer proposes that “…someone in Queensland drop this case…”, when the most appropriate official to consider such a proposition, a magistrate sitting at a commital hearing, has just decided the case should proceed. Does Dwyer suggest that some kangaroo court be convened - like the current one being held in the streets of Sydney where that unfortunate paedophile has decided to live?
Caroline de Costa is conducting a perfectly calm and reasonable campaign on behalf of her profession - doctors who provide needed professional services. Those of us who demand instantaneous gratification could learn a thing or two from the campaigns of the past. Remember, Victoria only reached enlightenment this year, NSW is still searching for it (don’t hold your breath) and Queensland could easily decide it would be better to have a new dam or coal mine for the political price it might pay if it moves quickly on this issue.
Excellent article and, largely, thoughtful replies (James, since you feel so strongly about abortion, I suggest you never have one).
S282 may provide a defence for doctors, which is how the Qld govt has managed to turn a blind eye to the 14,000 surgical abortions conducted annually in Qld, but there is NO defence for the woman or her friends who assist her. The media has reported Ms Leach believing the whole world is against her. Understandable, since the fanatics firebombed her home and vandalized her car. I’d like Ms Leach and her partner to know, however, that most Queenslanders are definitely with them and feel for them as they endure something they should not have to be enduring. Every public opinion poll conducted in Queensland for decades indicates between two thirds and over three quarters of Queenslanders believe abortion should be removed from the Criminal Code. Ms Bligh’s government is in a good position to implement Labor Party policy on abortion and repeal the abortion laws. Anna, please stand up to the men in frocks who use religion to disguise their misogyny!
Just what is the abortion rate in Australia JamesK? Tony Abbott struggled to get accurate numbers during the last election campaign so what numbers are you using, 14,000 per year in Queensland? if it were 12,000 or 1,200 would you still see it as a national disgrace? What shall we do to reduce the prevalence of this discgrace?
Will you back sex education starting at prep/kinder? I would. How about free contraception in high schools? these things would lower the abortion rate but people on your side of politics scream moral outrage if these things are ever suggested.
And what in the world is moral decline? I think demographic waves of Germanic nomads had a bit more to do with it than their morals. Roman morals were always bit iffy. As for our forefathers, I don’t know what they would think and I can’t ask them so I’m just gonna have to be a grown up about this and make my own mind up.
This is a health and public policy debate not a morals one.
To the more reasonable posters, It’s clear that the unpopular Bligh knows that a large group of vocal Queensland voters will cause all sorts of trouble if she is seen as liberal (read modern, sensible, uses available evidence to decide policy) on abortion. She’s in a cleft stick but surely this is the case to knock this issue out once and for all. Still you’d die old and disappointed waiting for the ALP do the right thing without a really good shove in the back.
This article engenders the usual obfuscation that De Costa and her abortion industry buddies are expert at disseminating.
Even if abortion were totally decriminalised, the importation of these drugs, and their use without medical oversight, would be a criminal matter, and should be. Several young woman have died around the world because of these drugs and it is disingenuous in the extreme to pass over that fact.
The FDAs protocol in the United States required that there be three visits to the doctor supervising the medical killing of the unborn, and that the woman undergo an unltrasound examination to ensure that there was not an ectopic pregnancy( that is, that the pregnancy was where it shoud be ) prior to the procedure commencing.
To save money, many abortionists were were omitting the ultrasound, and giving both drugs at one visit ( there are two drugs required for these killings ).
Several woman bled to death at home because they had been told to expect some pain and cramping and could not distinguish beteween “normal ‘blood loss and the life threatening haemorrhage they were in fact undergoing.
More ominously, several women died from overwhelming sepsis due to an organism that in a normal vaginal commensal and would not usually be regarded as a pathogen.
De Costa posts the usual s*it about late term abortion. The Courier Mail has carried several reports last wee about late term abortons where the baby was born alive and then left to die. That, even by the most liberal reading of the Crmes Act, is murder.
Boofheads like SBH and Annamack probably insist that all just more “misogyny”. Bit absurd when 7000 of the 14000 are unborn baby girls being butchered by De Costa and her industry buddies.
@SBH: Estimates from at least 83,000 to 140,000 per annum.
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/182_09_020505/cha10829_fm.html
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/RB/2004-05/05rb09.htm
http://www.spinneypress.com.au/213%20The%20Abortion%20Issue.html
http://www.aph.gov.au/HANSARD/senate/dailys/ds090206.pdf
Presumably Annamack thinks that’s just dandy and even if it isn’t…. well it’s none of my business anyway because…. well I’m a James not a Jamie…..
Incidentally Anna what makes you think I feel “strongly”?
Is it because I describe the culling of a 100,000 innocents per year in Australia a national disgrace?
Please forgive me for offending your righteous liberal sensibilities.
JAMESK and JOHN JAMES - My god, 2 males in moral outrage? Truly, it would be a joke if it wasn’t for your supreme arrogance. Neither of you have a clue what it’s like to worry about being pregnant without actually having to make a decision about one. The high moral ground taken by men like you is offensive. It’s not my “sensibilities” that are offended, it’s my intellect.
The numbers of terminations can only be ‘counted’ by the Medicare numbers - but that number also includes a D & C after a miscarriage; to help with conceiving a child, and for a miriad of other reasons I’m not aware of. The average age of women seeking an abortion is into the 20’s at least. Now, unless you’re privvy to each situation, you’re only using incorrect stats - and doctors don’t advertise the reasons why their patients seek a consultation - thankfully it’s against their ethics and the law.
I’ve recalled(before) the experience of the young woman from China who was almost due to give birth, and was to be deported. She begged the ‘authorities’ (read Howard govt?) to allow her to stay and give birth - they refused. She was deported to China, and her baby was aborted - she was days away from full term. I don’t recall Abbott, or Howard or Jim Wallace, and too many others, who could speak out in moral outrage, but didn’t. It’s only people they approve of who are people, the rest are ‘unpeople’? Then there were the kids born in detention, and after 3 years were so traumatized that they pulled their hair out and rocked back and forth for hours, almost catatonic. Nobody gave a damn about them, and I don’t recall your names being mentioned either!
You both should read, ‘Damned Whores and God’s Police’ by Anne Summers, as it explains the very attitude you’re demonstrating here Jamesk. Women are supposed to lead the way on positions of morals, otherwise society as we know it will cease? We’re supposed to protect men from themselves; their violent, arrogantly sexual and sexist attitudes. How about the men James? I don’t hear you speak out about the irresponsible males, who ‘sow their wild oats’ with gay abandon, not even bothering to take any responsiblity. That using condoms interferes with their pleasure? My god, we can’t have that can we? Have you always been responsible? How much irresponsible sex have you had? Did you even think first? What do you think of men who don’t?
I’m sick to death of your moralising. Do you challenge your mates when they’re offensive, derogatory and violent towards women? Or do you think it’s not your business? Whenever a shock jock somewhere does a story on a young women with 3 kids(to 3 different fathers!!!!!) I want to scream. What about the 3 blokes irresponsibility? Show men where a man has been angered by their own sex’s behaviour - doesn’t happen!Not a word! Not a whisper!
A woman dies somewhere in the world every 12 minutes due to pregnancy, giving birth, abortions gone wrong, and other related conditions. This doesn’t happen or affect men, and yet we have to listen to your pontificating crap! If we’re mature enough to hold down important jobs, train people in many skills, be professionals and raise children at the same time, we’re intelligent and mature enough to make a decision re our fertility, and we don’t need the ‘moral police’ to dictate to us! We only need a caring partner (too many of them walk away - but please, we musn’t have a go at them must we?)and a doctor who cares about every aspect of our health!
If you aren’t happy with women making decisions to terminate a pregnancy, then start making the world so free from violence for women, that they won’t have boot marks imprinted on their pregnant bellies; won’t be raped or bashed, and will ensure that the difficult task of raising a child is shared by a loving parter. That is not today’s reality. 25% of women are experiencing some form of physical and/or sexual abuse, and too many of them experience it for the first time during pregnancy. Women are still doing 80% of domestic chores, caring for the kids and often elderly parents and parents in law too! Fix that up! You can both lead the way on November 25, White Ribbon Day!
Oh yes, another thing that drives me to distraction, is that when women like me speak out and criticize men; or express anger at their lack of respect etc, we’re told we’re ‘man haters’? I don’t hate men. I just hate oppression!
Isn’t that typical of the abortion apologists. Insist that men should take responsibility for their children and their mothers, but support a legal regime that denies the fathers of those children any opportunity to voice concern or opposition to the their unborn sons and daughters being torn apart by the abortionists’ knife!
It is diabolical if the only solution we have to offer a mother finding her pregnancy arduous is to tell her we, the community, will assist her to kill her unborn baby. That is a travesty.
The notion that this is good medicine is an even greater lie.
420 abort babies every day
Daniel - And you know this because??Where were the 420 abortions carried out today? Tell me where; what State? Numbers, that’s all you blokes are good at? How many times did you engage in unprotected sex? Or do you think it’s her responsibility?
JOHN JAMES - No, you’re deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I’ll say it again very slowly so you’ll understand. If all men, who didn’t want to CONTRIBUTE to the conception of a child insisted on using protection - (“if it’s not on it’s not on”? Remember that?) the numbers of unwanted pregnancies would reduce drastically. But, due to your arrogant and superior stance, you don’t acknowledge any responsibility before the fact, you just want it all after! Typical!
Women decide on an abortion for many, many reasons, and some are; they’re in an abusive marriage/relationship, and were possibly raped, and very likely to be physically abused; it was due to incense or rape; they believe they’re too young to be a parent; they want to finish their studies, and heaps of other relevant reasons that I don’t even know of! As a woman who was in an abusive marriage, I support women who want to ensure that they’re financially independent before having children - if the relationship breaks up, they have means to care for themselves and their children. Men can follow their dreams and their careers without having to be challenged by these situations, and with men like you, it’s no wonder women choose termination. I wouldn’t want to spend my life with someone who is so judgemental and domineering! Been there, done that?
How many women do you know who’ve had an abortion? How many stories have you listened to? I emphasize the word ‘listen’! You haven’t addressed the very relevant issue of violence by men towards women. I grew up with religious domination - the suppression of women’s rights as human beings, and I sympathize with the many, many stories of women in abusive relationships. You do a lot more ‘work’ on your own gender before you start moralising against women. It’s immature, unchristian and tedious!
As an individual, I couldn’t imagine the trauma of having to make a decision to terminate a pregnancy. It was for this reason, plus the medical fact, that it was too dangerous for me to have any more than 3 - I had to fight like mad to have a tubal ligation while only 25. I came up against moralising, domineering and sexist male medicos, who insulted my right to good health, my right to be treated as an intelligent person, not just a baby factory - I was determined to win, and I did! I even had a specialist tell me, that he wouldn’t correct my bladder prolapse(due to the very quick birth of my last child) as it would interfere with my husband’s sex life?????My daily pain and ill health was not important to him. He was a Catholic who boasted of having 9 kids. I (who was also raised catholic) corrected him and said, ‘no, your wife did - bring her in and see what she has to say’??This was appalling, and I’m sure it still goes on today! So, stick your misogynist attitudes, and do some growing up. Women are human beings, and sadly, in the world you’ve helped make, are subject to abuse and denigration by men. Fix that up, and I might take some notice of you and your like’s opinion!
If the laws re abortion were removed, and women could have a termination very soon after 7 weeks, which I believe is the best time, then it’s only a collection of cells, and nowhere near a human being, able to live independent of its mother. I had a miscarriage at 14 weeks, so I know what I’m talking about. While it was very sad and traumatic, that foetus was nothing like my three beautiful babies, born at full term!
According to Liz45, I need to read: “‘Damned Whores and God’s Police’ by Anne Summers, as it explains the very attitude you’re demonstrating here Jamesk.”
Two questions Liz45 relating to your pathetic attempt at smear:
1.Where do I demonstrate that I am religious or in your idiom: a member of “God’s Police”?
Do I need to be religious in order for it to be evident that killing 100,000 preterm human infants is a a cause for concern?
2.Where do I demonstrate an attitude that says all women are whores?
I suggest Liz45 is thrashing around obfuscating, smearing and creating strawmen to attack because she seemingly cannot create an original thought with an argument to support her evident prejudice.
I can’t believe in the 21st century people are saying abortion is a crime. It is a fact of life - women find themselves pregnant and don’t want to be. Fortunatley Science has made it easier to abort the foetus as safe as it can be, so the woman can get on with her life.
If you don’t agree with abortion you don’t have one, simple, but we do not live in a theocracy. And this is the core of injustice of this Queensland law whereby legislators who are supposed to represent the people, within a principle of a separation of church and state, are saying if you are pregnant, and you are not in a life threatening situation or insane - you are going to be forced to be pregnant.
And don’t say that the resulting child will be well looked after because the State and the Church has a shocking history of caring for unwanted children. They can barely function now with the amount of abused and neglected kids are on the books now.
Whatever the issue - it is the female who is pregnant who ought not to be judged by what she decides is right for her at that moment in time and looking into the future. All decisions made by the woman is hers to make and not be judged a criminal murderer.
Many women have abortions who have already had their families, and they realise, like myself that they couldn’t go through another pregnancy, and be responsible for another human being for the next 18yrs at least, and be also the best you can be for the children you already have.
A fetus is just that - it is not a baby - it is the potential of one. I prefer to say I was wisely selfish. We must do what we can to alleviate the suffering of who is here with us in the present. I was appalled when, with an unplanned pregnancy I was accused of having no morals by a doctor when I said I was going to have an abortion. (my husband was booked for a vasectomy, so perhaps i had missed a couple of pills pre-empting being contraceptive free for the first time in 20years, apart from two children).
I thought what do poor women who don’t have solid self-esteem/education etc do with preachy doctors like this? So now my children have left the nest, confident and self-supporting, I turn to campaigning against this archaic theocratic law which is still oppressing the rights of women….
go to my first YouTube!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWokBJFQfDQ
I noticed that John James and myself are smeared but actually not one of our arguments are answered.
Liz45, Annamack and now Julie McNeill firstly, carefully ignore the concerns we’ve raised presumably because they are unable to answer, and then obfuscate and create strawmen (us) to indignantly and self righteously denigrate.
My concerns were:
1. The sheer volume of numbers of induced abortions is nothing short of sickening and should be addressed. 100,000 is way, way too many.
2. That late term abortions are particularly of concern as many of these aborted lives are left to die out of the uterus or are actively killed during the abortion process and even reportedly, in some circumstances, after delivery/instrumental induced abortion.
It’s sad that I need now to add that this should be of concern to all Australians and that they are clearly legitimate issues to raise and discuss.
These women want to shut us down and confidently assert that they know: 1. I’m religious and moreover, 2. that I am extreme in my religious views.
Neither of these assertions are actually true nor are either of relevance to the debate.
Most tellingly nothing I have said would support their assertion even if it were relevant which of course it is not.
They also assert that I demonstrate a bad attitude of being paternalistic, arrogant, patronising and member of God’s police and I also demonstrate my view women who have an abortion are whores which is also not true and is of couse frankly offensive but that’s okay because I’m a man with the affrontery to question the abortion rate.
Incidentally where in posts have a I demonstrated any of these alleged “attitudes”?
In fact they assert almost anything except an argument in reply.
Their postings simply full of logical fallacies, smear, obfuscation and personal sob stories which, presumably, they feel are the final answer bar none.
All three also assert that I had no right to make any comment because of my sex!
Arguably the only difference between Liz45 and an aborted foetus is the firstly her greater number of “cells” as she puts it and secondly that she was given an opportunity to develop her life history whilst the foetus wasn’t even given a name before being killed.
So that’s alright then……..
These non-arguments would be laughable were they not so overwhelmingly and pathetically sad.
Incidentally Liz45, unless pregnancy was potentially lethal in that particular patient, any doctor who recommended tubal ligation to a 25 year old, an essentially irreversible contraception method, when there are many safe reversible methods would quite rightly risk investigation by an ethical medical board.
to the two and a half Js, Leave off lads this is another one you’ve lost long ago. We could criminalise all abortions cause that’s been so safe and effective in the past.
I noticed that John James and myself are smeared but actually not one of our arguments are answered.
Liz45, Annamack and now Julie McNeill firstly, carefully ignore the concerns we’ve raised presumably because they are unable to answer, and then obfuscate and create strawmen (us) [edited]
My concerns were:
1. The sheer volume of numbers of induced abortions is nothing short of sickening and should be addressed. 100,000 is way, way too many.
2. That late term abortions are particularly of concern as many of these aborted lives are left to die out of the uterus or are actively killed during the abortion process and even reportedly, in some circumstances, after delivery/instrumental induced abortion.
It’s sad that I need now to add that this should be of concern to all Australians and that they are clearly legitimate issues to raise and discuss.
These women want to shut us down and confidently assert that they know: 1. I’m religious and moreover, 2. that I am extreme in my religious views.
Neither of these assertions are actually true nor are either of relevance to the debate.
Most tellingly nothing I have said would support their assertion even if it were relevant which of course it is not.
They also assert that I demonstrate a bad attitude of being paternalistic, arrogant, patronising and member of God’s police and I also demonstrate my view women who have an abortion are whores which is also not true and is of couse frankly offensive but that’s okay because I’m a man with the affrontery to question the abortion rate.
Incidentally where in posts have a I demonstrated any of these alleged “attitudes”?
In fact they assert almost anything except an argument in reply.
Their postings simply full of logical fallacies, smear, obfuscation and personal sob stories which, presumably, they feel are the final answer bar none.
All three also assert that I had no right to make any comment because of my sex!
Oh and JamseK, if your idea of accurate is a margin of error of around 80% good luck
JamesK - That 25 yr old person was me. I’d have 3 children; I had a prolapse of the bladder due to my last baby’s very quick delivery - his choice? A prolapsed bladder means it is ‘in the top of the vagina’ where it has no business being. The urologist wouldn’t operate as it would interfere with my husband’s sex life - too bad that for me it was painful and horrible, and I had persistent bladder infections. (I’m explaining this as you blokes obviously need a lesson in what happens to women, while you’re in blissful ignorance?)
I was asked stupid questions, like ‘what if one of your children dies’? ‘don’t you want a girl’? (oh yes, he didn’t guarantee that either?) I was the only one not concerned with having 3 boys. What if my husband died? Well, if it was dangerous for me to have his kids, the logical conclusion was, that it was too dangerous for me to have anyone else’s either.
The gynaecologist who finally performed the necessary surgery, plus the tubal ligation was like waking up out of a nightmare. I burst into tears and hugged him. I walked around sick for 2 years looking after 3 kids! The ethics? What about the ethics of looking after my health, both physical and mental, not to mention financial? Wake up to yourself. What are the safe reversible methods? I didn’t want to be on the pill for another 40 years? I’d already experienced the russion roulette of careful planning? No way! I didn’t want to risk losing my life via another pregnancy suffering pre-eclampsia either. I’d spent the last 6-8 weeks in and out or bed with 2 pre-schoolers? Try it! We didn’t even have a TV prior to this - we bought a little one to keep the kids entertained while I was in bed! Your couple of sentences are patronising and show a great ignorance. You need some lessons in the biology of women, not the ‘magazine’ nonsense you portray here!
You blokes and your moralising and judging, won’t even go and have an examination to prevent premature death from prostate cancer. Try being female, with all its invasive investigations, prodding, poking and digital exams? Then of course, there’s mammograms that are a source of great wonder and joy! Imagine an exam of your vulnerable bits in a vice! Of course it’s better than breast cancer and lasts ??long, but, we still have it worse than blokes, who as a species are a mob of weaklings? You blokes wouldn’t last 3 months of morning sickness let alone 9 like I had, twice in 2 years! Try feeding one baby a bottle, and having to put him in the cot and go and vomit - for the 3rd time that morning - 7, 8am, then come back and continue, while he’s been crying with justifiable outrage while you’re gone - oh yes, no nannies for me?
This November 25, you blokes can become Ambassadors for no violence towards women; White Ribbon Day. If one out of 4 women are being abused, that could be a reason for at least 25% of abortions. You males are part of the problem. You either condone it actively or passively, either way you’re just as guilty as the bastards who bash. Pregnant women make up a large percentage of abused women, and 36% of them have experienced violence for the first time while pregnant. What sort of men remain silent while these heinous crimes are being committed. If you’re really concerned about the number of abortions, start actively working towards making the world, via Australia a better place for women to bring kids into the world. Women (well me for one) are sick of the moralising, paternalistic and patronizing BS on sites like this by superiour males without a clue. You have no idea, and probably haven’t read one book or article about DV - it is one reason why women choose abortion, have miscarriages, difficult pregnancies, awful labours - long and more painful (similar to women in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment - relaxed and happy women, generally have a better time) post-natal depression, small babies with difficulties etc. Get off your collective bums and start reading or shut up!
(Incidently fellas, tonight’s ‘Insight’ on SBS is about the effects post-natal depression has on families. I suggest you watch it, you might learn something - a lot even?)