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	<title>Comments on: Telstra split: good or bad idea?</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Kirk Broadhurst</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-38052</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk Broadhurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-38052</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s no competition in infrastructure.  Nor should there be!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no competition in infrastructure.  Nor should there be!</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Moodie</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37880</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Moodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37880</guid>
		<description>Great, thanx for that.  I found the Crikey clarifiers on the national broadband network parts 1 and 2 worth re reading.

I think roads are a good metaphor for the national broadband network.

I travel mostly by public transport yet of course my taxes pay for roads that are part of the community’s general infrastructure.  When I do drive, I don’t need a freeway that allows me to go above 100 kph and I certainly don’t need a road that can carry vehicles above 5 tons and 5 meters high.  But if we are going to have roads it is much more efficient to have 1 road system that handles all traffic even if it is over engineered for my needs.  Sure, I’m paying a bit more for it, but it would be crazy to build a separate road system for Porsches and trucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great, thanx for that.  I found the Crikey clarifiers on the national broadband network parts 1 and 2 worth re reading.</p>
<p>I think roads are a good metaphor for the national broadband network.</p>
<p>I travel mostly by public transport yet of course my taxes pay for roads that are part of the community’s general infrastructure.  When I do drive, I don’t need a freeway that allows me to go above 100 kph and I certainly don’t need a road that can carry vehicles above 5 tons and 5 meters high.  But if we are going to have roads it is much more efficient to have 1 road system that handles all traffic even if it is over engineered for my needs.  Sure, I’m paying a bit more for it, but it would be crazy to build a separate road system for Porsches and trucks.</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37879</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37879</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@Gavin Moodie:&lt;/strong&gt; There&#039;s already a Crikey Clarifier covering &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090408-Crikey-Clarifier-National-Broadband-Network-Part-2-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;why wireless can&#039;t be used for everything&lt;/a&gt;. The short answer is that it&#039;s subject to interference, can&#039;t reach into every nook and cranny of wiggly terrain, and there are physics issues relating to users having to share the amount of data transmission in the available frequencies.

On the &quot;natural monopoly&quot; point, I do note that Conroy indicated the government sees the NBN as infrastructure&quot; not business, and therefore doesn&#039;t necessarily expect to see a direct financial return on investment. We don&#039;t have competing roads between cities. We have have highway, and then people develop competing services on that road -- buses, freight, private cars -- all of whom have equal and open access.

&lt;strong&gt;@ Sausage Maker:&lt;/strong&gt; You&#039;ve hit upon one of the things that annoys me: People who don&#039;t have a need for a high-speed data network themselves failing to imagine that others might have such a need. Or, to extend the point, that there are uses which might emerge once the network is in place and everyone&#039;s had a chance to play with it.

&lt;strong&gt;Correction:&lt;/strong&gt; The business name of the smaller ISP quoted should be &quot;Information Service Providers&quot;. &quot;Independent Service Providers&quot; is their old name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@Gavin Moodie:</strong> There&#8217;s already a Crikey Clarifier covering <a href="http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090408-Crikey-Clarifier-National-Broadband-Network-Part-2-.html" rel="nofollow">why wireless can&#8217;t be used for everything</a>. The short answer is that it&#8217;s subject to interference, can&#8217;t reach into every nook and cranny of wiggly terrain, and there are physics issues relating to users having to share the amount of data transmission in the available frequencies.</p>
<p>On the &#8220;natural monopoly&#8221; point, I do note that Conroy indicated the government sees the NBN as infrastructure&#8221; not business, and therefore doesn&#8217;t necessarily expect to see a direct financial return on investment. We don&#8217;t have competing roads between cities. We have have highway, and then people develop competing services on that road&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;buses, freight, private cars&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;all of whom have equal and open access.</p>
<p><strong>@ Sausage Maker:</strong> You&#8217;ve hit upon one of the things that annoys me: People who don&#8217;t have a need for a high-speed data network themselves failing to imagine that others might have such a need. Or, to extend the point, that there are uses which might emerge once the network is in place and everyone&#8217;s had a chance to play with it.</p>
<p><strong>Correction:</strong> The business name of the smaller ISP quoted should be &#8220;Information Service Providers&#8221;. &#8220;Independent Service Providers&#8221; is their old name.</p>
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		<title>By: Sausage Maker</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37871</link>
		<dc:creator>Sausage Maker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37871</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;ve ever worked in a large IT department then you would know the nightmare it is to do deal with Telstra&#039;s WAN products. Not just from the cost point of view, but from how bad the customer service is. Most people who work in large offices are oblivious how their internet access works, or they think its something like their home. The price and cost of Telstra&#039;s WAN products is disgusting and hurtful. And even small business who want a small connection but with an SLA with a high uptime pay through the nose. 

I&#039;ve did contracting for a small company and used VPN to connect to their offices but had to be careful of much data I was using so as not to go over their puny download limit even though my usage was very small. Its things like this that hurt and hamper businesses of all sorts in this country and that pain is passed onto consumers.

The drooling masses think the internet is 256/64 Kbit connections  and using crap like twitter (replace the tw with sh) or watching stupid videos of of babies biting fingers on youtube. But for those of us who use the internet for work Australia&#039;s internet is pathetic. A few ISP&#039;s have put their own DSLAM&#039;s into a few large, select exchanges while the cost of Telstra&#039;s ADSL2+ products are obscene. And for those us whose local exchange does not have a non-Telstra DSLAM in it (ie 98% of the country) we&#039;re screwed. $90 on average for 25GB download per month? Ridiculous. Of course there is always cable. Oh, wait. That is Telstra too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;ve ever worked in a large IT department then you would know the nightmare it is to do deal with Telstra&#8217;s WAN products. Not just from the cost point of view, but from how bad the customer service is. Most people who work in large offices are oblivious how their internet access works, or they think its something like their home. The price and cost of Telstra&#8217;s WAN products is disgusting and hurtful. And even small business who want a small connection but with an SLA with a high uptime pay through the nose. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve did contracting for a small company and used VPN to connect to their offices but had to be careful of much data I was using so as not to go over their puny download limit even though my usage was very small. Its things like this that hurt and hamper businesses of all sorts in this country and that pain is passed onto consumers.</p>
<p>The drooling masses think the internet is 256/64 Kbit connections  and using crap like twitter (replace the tw with sh) or watching stupid videos of of babies biting fingers on youtube. But for those of us who use the internet for work Australia&#8217;s internet is pathetic. A few ISP&#8217;s have put their own DSLAM&#8217;s into a few large, select exchanges while the cost of Telstra&#8217;s ADSL2+ products are obscene. And for those us whose local exchange does not have a non-Telstra DSLAM in it (ie 98% of the country) we&#8217;re screwed. $90 on average for 25GB download per month? Ridiculous. Of course there is always cable. Oh, wait. That is Telstra too.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Moodie</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37848</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Moodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37848</guid>
		<description>I think we&#039;re learning that there can be no competition in a natural monopoly.

But I must be misunderstanding something.  Isn&#039;t wireless growing apace and mightn&#039;t wireless compete with cable - whether copper or optic - with further technological innovation and a few cycles of Moore&#039;s law?  Or is the national broadband network a combination of wireless and the optical fibre that is commonly mentioned?  I fear I may need a Crikey clarifier on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;re learning that there can be no competition in a natural monopoly.</p>
<p>But I must be misunderstanding something.  Isn&#8217;t wireless growing apace and mightn&#8217;t wireless compete with cable - whether copper or optic - with further technological innovation and a few cycles of Moore&#8217;s law?  Or is the national broadband network a combination of wireless and the optical fibre that is commonly mentioned?  I fear I may need a Crikey clarifier on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37839</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37839</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@mtats:&lt;/strong&gt; I only saw Senator Conroy&#039;s comment about ripping out the copper network as I reviewed the &lt;em&gt;Lateline&lt;/em&gt; transcript shortly before filing this story. It&#039;s something I&#039;ll be following up.

&lt;strong&gt;@Phillip Musumeci:&lt;/strong&gt; James Packer is also well cashed up to counter any moves by Kerry Stokes. That said, Packer does seem more interested in casinos and other investments than the media. Telstra may or may not negotiate a deal good enough -- that is, sufficiently acceptable to the government -- for them to retain Foxtel. If Foxtel comes into play, well... game on!

&lt;strong&gt;@ westral:&lt;/strong&gt; I&#039;m with Bernard Keane on this one. That Telstra might one day be forced to split is hardly a secret. People buy shares in a company and play the investment game, for better or for worse. Yes, Telstra shares dropped yesterday but today they&#039;ve recovered somewhat as people get their heads around this thing. What happens a year or three down the track when Telstra is finally restructured is anyone&#039;s guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@mtats:</strong> I only saw Senator Conroy&#8217;s comment about ripping out the copper network as I reviewed the <em>Lateline</em> transcript shortly before filing this story. It&#8217;s something I&#8217;ll be following up.</p>
<p><strong>@Phillip Musumeci:</strong> James Packer is also well cashed up to counter any moves by Kerry Stokes. That said, Packer does seem more interested in casinos and other investments than the media. Telstra may or may not negotiate a deal good enough&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;that is, sufficiently acceptable to the government&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;for them to retain Foxtel. If Foxtel comes into play, well&#8230; game on!</p>
<p><strong>@ westral:</strong> I&#8217;m with Bernard Keane on this one. That Telstra might one day be forced to split is hardly a secret. People buy shares in a company and play the investment game, for better or for worse. Yes, Telstra shares dropped yesterday but today they&#8217;ve recovered somewhat as people get their heads around this thing. What happens a year or three down the track when Telstra is finally restructured is anyone&#8217;s guess.</p>
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		<title>By: michael james</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37828</link>
		<dc:creator>michael james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 06:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37828</guid>
		<description>Telstra under Sol Trujillo will be a case study in how to antagonise the regulator and destroy any reservoir of good will that might have existed. Corporate Affairs practitioners will study it for decades to learn what not to do. 

Management at Telstra has stubbornly resisted anything that may have undermined its monopoly, while doing everything possible to entrench that monopoly and defy the regulators.

They have reaped what they have sown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Telstra under Sol Trujillo will be a case study in how to antagonise the regulator and destroy any reservoir of good will that might have existed. Corporate Affairs practitioners will study it for decades to learn what not to do. </p>
<p>Management at Telstra has stubbornly resisted anything that may have undermined its monopoly, while doing everything possible to entrench that monopoly and defy the regulators.</p>
<p>They have reaped what they have sown.</p>
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		<title>By: westral</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37806</link>
		<dc:creator>westral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37806</guid>
		<description>We have an Australian company that successive governments have deliberately structured to be the way it is today and has invited Austalians to invest in Telstra as it was privatised. Now the government wants to destroy the value of the company for shareholders without offering any compensation. If I was a director of Telstra I would be briefing my lawyers as we speak. I don&#039;t hold Telstra shares and don&#039;t use Telstra&#039;s services</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have an Australian company that successive governments have deliberately structured to be the way it is today and has invited Austalians to invest in Telstra as it was privatised. Now the government wants to destroy the value of the company for shareholders without offering any compensation. If I was a director of Telstra I would be briefing my lawyers as we speak. I don&#8217;t hold Telstra shares and don&#8217;t use Telstra&#8217;s services</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Musumeci</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37804</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Musumeci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37804</guid>
		<description>Regards cable TV: Kerry Stokes ability to get into position also looks pretty good.  If Senator Fielding wishes to question the Future Fund&#039;s actions to manage risk and lower its dependence on one particular share holding (and industry), he might also like to look at the last few months of Stokes&#039; agile work anticipating telecommunications change.  Plus subscribe to crikey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regards cable TV: Kerry Stokes ability to get into position also looks pretty good.  If Senator Fielding wishes to question the Future Fund&#8217;s actions to manage risk and lower its dependence on one particular share holding (and industry), he might also like to look at the last few months of Stokes&#8217; agile work anticipating telecommunications change.  Plus subscribe to crikey.</p>
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		<title>By: mtats</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37801</link>
		<dc:creator>mtats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/16/great-for-competition-or-one-true-nbn/#comment-37801</guid>
		<description>Wait a sec, if they take the copper out, what about the Internode ADLS2+ connection that i may want to keep if i don&#039;t want to join the NBN? Or if the NBN is too expensive?

And why is this c0mment not the big news this morning? At least it would force a clarification from Conroy&#039;s office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait a sec, if they take the copper out, what about the Internode ADLS2+ connection that i may want to keep if i don&#8217;t want to join the NBN? Or if the NBN is too expensive?</p>
<p>And why is this c0mment not the big news this morning? At least it would force a clarification from Conroy&#8217;s office.</p>
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