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	<title>Comments on: The issue that&#8217;s not allowed online</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin Moodie</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37803</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Moodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37803</guid>
		<description>I agree the article poses a nice question but I disagree with the answer proposed.  It is true that Zionists can use anti Semetic support to besmirch anti Zionist arguments, but the point of the exercise is not to maximise one&#039;s debating points or to minimise those of one&#039;s opponents.  Zionists do nothing to persuade their critics by claiming that they are fellow travellers of anti Semites.  

It is far better to give anti Semites access to channels of communication and to use those channels to challenge their filth than to push them in frustration to other means of furthering their views such as direct action where the opportunity for rational debate or fostering feelings of common humanity are much reduced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree the article poses a nice question but I disagree with the answer proposed.  It is true that Zionists can use anti Semetic support to besmirch anti Zionist arguments, but the point of the exercise is not to maximise one&#8217;s debating points or to minimise those of one&#8217;s opponents.  Zionists do nothing to persuade their critics by claiming that they are fellow travellers of anti Semites.  </p>
<p>It is far better to give anti Semites access to channels of communication and to use those channels to challenge their filth than to push them in frustration to other means of furthering their views such as direct action where the opportunity for rational debate or fostering feelings of common humanity are much reduced.</p>
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		<title>By: Marshall Thornton</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37632</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall Thornton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 02:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37632</guid>
		<description>This article is most interesting, I was not aware of the points Guy has brought up. From the sidelines, I have always wondered why Irael or the Jewish religeon  was &quot;off limits&quot; as a discussion topic by the media (or anybody). It seems as everyone is afraid of providing any comment that could be deemed as criticism.  This seems to be a unique position. I have always wondered why this is so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article is most interesting, I was not aware of the points Guy has brought up. From the sidelines, I have always wondered why Irael or the Jewish religeon  was &#8220;off limits&#8221; as a discussion topic by the media (or anybody). It seems as everyone is afraid of providing any comment that could be deemed as criticism.  This seems to be a unique position. I have always wondered why this is so.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37587</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 08:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37587</guid>
		<description>Nice work Guy......very timely.....and you&#039;re right about Danby being the Palestinians&#039; best promoter in Oz.

Who&#039;s running in the next Melbourne Ports election against Danby?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work Guy&#8230;&#8230;very timely&#8230;..and you&#8217;re right about Danby being the Palestinians&#8217; best promoter in Oz.</p>
<p>Who&#8217;s running in the next Melbourne Ports election against Danby?</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Matthews</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37579</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Matthews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37579</guid>
		<description>Comments in Crikey on the Israel question are no more forceful than those that have appeared in Murdoch&#039;s Weekend Australian Magazine.  John Lyons wrote a devastating article in /August 22-23 issue about Israelis evicting Palestinians from their homes on the West Bank. Of seven letters commenting on the article five were savagely critical of Israel.  The most critical from the grandson of a Jewish man killed in a concentration camp and the son of a man who suffered in Dachau and Buchenwald wrote: &#039;I want to express my disgust at the Zionist thugs ...In the war Jews were dispossessed of their homes, belongings and finally their lives by the Nazis.  What is the difference between that and what these settlers in Israel are doing now?  It appears that in Israel the swastika has been replaced by the six-pointed star.&#039;
Another wrote: &#039;The view of those in Hebron that Jewish settlement rights are dictated by history would if taken to its logical conclusion justify the Holocaust on the grounds the Jews had no right to be in Europe.&#039;
Did Danby condemn The Australian for allowing those criticisms?  Course not.
Be careful at Crikey not to be  intimidated and tricked into being censors.  Allow a spade to be called a bloody spade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comments in Crikey on the Israel question are no more forceful than those that have appeared in Murdoch&#8217;s Weekend Australian Magazine.  John Lyons wrote a devastating article in /August 22-23 issue about Israelis evicting Palestinians from their homes on the West Bank. Of seven letters commenting on the article five were savagely critical of Israel.  The most critical from the grandson of a Jewish man killed in a concentration camp and the son of a man who suffered in Dachau and Buchenwald wrote: &#8216;I want to express my disgust at the Zionist thugs &#8230;In the war Jews were dispossessed of their homes, belongings and finally their lives by the Nazis.  What is the difference between that and what these settlers in Israel are doing now?  It appears that in Israel the swastika has been replaced by the six-pointed star.&#8217;<br />
Another wrote: &#8216;The view of those in Hebron that Jewish settlement rights are dictated by history would if taken to its logical conclusion justify the Holocaust on the grounds the Jews had no right to be in Europe.&#8217;<br />
Did Danby condemn The Australian for allowing those criticisms?  Course not.<br />
Be careful at Crikey not to be  intimidated and tricked into being censors.  Allow a spade to be called a bloody spade.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter Slurry</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37561</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Slurry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37561</guid>
		<description>Got issues with your article Mr Rundle. Let me raise a few points.

First you say “Crikey&#039;s policy has been to leave some fairly drekkish stuff up, on the grounds that you are no more responsible for the opinions in a comment string than you are for what is said about an article in the pub.’

The notion of ‘free speech’ carries with it responsibilities. We all have strong views on issues but the fact is, we cannot say or write whatever we think. Don&#039;t worry, I&#039;ve tried! And wasn’t that the Pauline Hanson issue – that we didn’t want coverage given to racist comments about Abo’s and Asians, whereas your view seems to be ‘bring it on’. That’s fine, unless you’re an Abo or an Asian. 

If you invite and then publish offensive and racist comments then don’t censor anything. If you want aggressive comments, then print them all – racisms, sexism  (oops, I mean s*xism, as Crikey don’t print these words), homophobia etc. E.g., Guy, I’m sure you’re not really a fat-arsed lazy homo fuck puppet of Bob Ellis, so I hope in the interests of comment strings, you won’t mind me saying so? See what I mean. 

Second, Danby’s obsessed and paranoid and to think he speaks for Australian Jewry is to think Bronwyn Bishop speaks for all aged conservative nymphomaniacs. Most people in Parliament think Danby’s off the wall, in the same way we think Fielding is. You wouldn’t accord Fielding the status of speaking for Christian families anymore than you’d give deluded Danby the credit for being a Jewish representative – regardless of what their self promotion may have you believe. So tying Danby to Zionism is misleading and unhelpful. Why not ask Mark Dreyfuss or Mike Kelly their views? Or make Senator Eggleston the spokesperson for dwarfism? 

Third, you know why you can’t call Jews ‘Nazi’s’? The same way you can’t call gays ‘poofs’ or dark people ‘niggers’ or women ‘bitches’.  I know plenty of gay blokes who call themselves ‘big poofs/queens/homos’ or Europeans who call themselves ‘wogs’ or women who call their girlfriends ‘bitches’ – it’s an internal/inclusive term when used this way, but vilification or an insult when used by others. 

Nazi’s sought to exterminate an entire religion. Whatever else one thinks of Israel’s actions – many of which are indefensible for those of us who want a two state solution -  they sure as hell ain’t gassing millions in concentration camps or exterminating the entire Arab population. They may do many actions which Crikey readers find repellent, but genocide isn’t one of them, regardless of what Liz45 and Charles Herbert might say!  

Guy: be funny, be angry, be a polemicist, be anti-right wing governments but don’t confuse free speech with a voice for racism and prejudice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got issues with your article Mr Rundle. Let me raise a few points.</p>
<p>First you say “Crikey&#8217;s policy has been to leave some fairly drekkish stuff up, on the grounds that you are no more responsible for the opinions in a comment string than you are for what is said about an article in the pub.’</p>
<p>The notion of ‘free speech’ carries with it responsibilities. We all have strong views on issues but the fact is, we cannot say or write whatever we think. Don&#8217;t worry, I&#8217;ve tried! And wasn’t that the Pauline Hanson issue – that we didn’t want coverage given to racist comments about Abo’s and Asians, whereas your view seems to be ‘bring it on’. That’s fine, unless you’re an Abo or an Asian. </p>
<p>If you invite and then publish offensive and racist comments then don’t censor anything. If you want aggressive comments, then print them all – racisms, sexism  (oops, I mean s*xism, as Crikey don’t print these words), homophobia etc. E.g., Guy, I’m sure you’re not really a fat-arsed lazy homo fuck puppet of Bob Ellis, so I hope in the interests of comment strings, you won’t mind me saying so? See what I mean. </p>
<p>Second, Danby’s obsessed and paranoid and to think he speaks for Australian Jewry is to think Bronwyn Bishop speaks for all aged conservative nymphomaniacs. Most people in Parliament think Danby’s off the wall, in the same way we think Fielding is. You wouldn’t accord Fielding the status of speaking for Christian families anymore than you’d give deluded Danby the credit for being a Jewish representative – regardless of what their self promotion may have you believe. So tying Danby to Zionism is misleading and unhelpful. Why not ask Mark Dreyfuss or Mike Kelly their views? Or make Senator Eggleston the spokesperson for dwarfism? </p>
<p>Third, you know why you can’t call Jews ‘Nazi’s’? The same way you can’t call gays ‘poofs’ or dark people ‘niggers’ or women ‘bitches’.  I know plenty of gay blokes who call themselves ‘big poofs/queens/homos’ or Europeans who call themselves ‘wogs’ or women who call their girlfriends ‘bitches’ – it’s an internal/inclusive term when used this way, but vilification or an insult when used by others. </p>
<p>Nazi’s sought to exterminate an entire religion. Whatever else one thinks of Israel’s actions – many of which are indefensible for those of us who want a two state solution -  they sure as hell ain’t gassing millions in concentration camps or exterminating the entire Arab population. They may do many actions which Crikey readers find repellent, but genocide isn’t one of them, regardless of what Liz45 and Charles Herbert might say!  </p>
<p>Guy: be funny, be angry, be a polemicist, be anti-right wing governments but don’t confuse free speech with a voice for racism and prejudice.</p>
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		<title>By: Angus Sharpe</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37529</link>
		<dc:creator>Angus Sharpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37529</guid>
		<description>I think that this is a good question.  I also think that, in general, Crikey makes its editing decisions based on the question &quot;Is this interesting?&quot; as opposed to &quot;Do I agree with this?&quot;

For example, Crikey tends to ignore my really boring emails (and only prints the quite boring ones) ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that this is a good question.  I also think that, in general, Crikey makes its editing decisions based on the question &#8220;Is this interesting?&#8221; as opposed to &#8220;Do I agree with this?&#8221;</p>
<p>For example, Crikey tends to ignore my really boring emails (and only prints the quite boring ones) &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: IllusionaryLunch</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37516</link>
		<dc:creator>IllusionaryLunch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 04:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37516</guid>
		<description>Speaking of moderation, one of my favourite techniques is &#039;disemvoweling&#039; invented by Teresa Nielsen Hayden over on Making Light ( http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010758.html ) and used to fantastic effect on boingboing where she is moderator. I&#039;m surprised that it isn&#039;t used more commonly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of moderation, one of my favourite techniques is &#8216;disemvoweling&#8217; invented by Teresa Nielsen Hayden over on Making Light ( <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010758.html" rel="nofollow">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010758.html</a> ) and used to fantastic effect on boingboing where she is moderator. I&#8217;m surprised that it isn&#8217;t used more commonly.</p>
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		<title>By: Irfan Yusuf</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37501</link>
		<dc:creator>Irfan Yusuf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 03:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/09/14/rundle-no-wonder-danby-is-pissed-off/#comment-37501</guid>
		<description>I feel sorry for the constituents of the federal seat of Melbourne Ports. Their local Member seems to be more interested with what he thinks is happening in the Middle East than what is really happening in his own seat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel sorry for the constituents of the federal seat of Melbourne Ports. Their local Member seems to be more interested with what he thinks is happening in the Middle East than what is really happening in his own seat.</p>
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