Again, nobody is suggesting that all women go without drugs to ease pain, where they are needed, just that women be better informed about the options.

I suppose being raped by a telegraph pole would be a similar feeling to childbirth. But I couldn’t imagine that this would be an experience that women would be swanning on about. The mythology which has been invented about childbirth is astonishing. Billions of women have had babies. It’s just no big deal-apart from the pain.

Question is - who is reponsible for informing women? If left up to medical staff, it’s unlikely that the full and balanced picture will be presented. Let’s hope that increased levels of “shared care” or midwife centred care will help redress the problem.

Let’s be clear on what the guy’s position (supported by scientific evidence - and shared by many female experts in the field) is:
- Pain relief has its place in childbirth, but not at the rates we are currently seeing
- The pain experienced in childbirth comes with some valuable benefits

To Liz45, who asks “To have a male carry on in this manner is just too ludicrous for words. What the hell would he know?” - the answer is quite a lot, actually. He’s an Associate Professor in midwifery. Just because he can’t give birth himself doesn’t mean he can’t conduct scientific studies on it. That’s like suggesting that human beings can’t possibly discover anything about flight because we don’t have wings.

And to Venise, who recalls “the tormented cries of women enduring protracted birthing. They would wander up and down corridors sobbing with pain and waiting, waiting.” I find it hard, after reading Dr Walsh’s position on this, to imagine him “preaching” at them to put up with the pain in a case like that. He has made it quite clear that there are definitely cases where pain relief is essential.

And to Liz45 again, “There are times when people really need to think before they speak - and then choose to just shut up!What women don’t need is another patronising, paternalistic male while they’re thrashing around in agony!” Please try to heed your own advice. What women DO need is all the information possible about these things so that we can make INFORMED CHOICES. I haven’t had any children yet, but when the time comes I’ll be factoring in Dr Walsh’s findings when it comes to deciding on how I want to manage the pain of labour.

As an aside, I’m wondering whether some elements of this discussion fit into the wider context of the growing tendency, in Western culture especially, to avoid any level of pain or discomfort at all costs. I agree with Evan’s sentiments about pain (and in the same vein, mental anguish) being useful at times, and the fact that it can be the “yang” that makes the “ying” so good.

Disclosure: I am male.

The thing which I will never forget was the tormented cries of women enduring protracted birthing. They would wander up and down corridors sobbing with pain and waiting, waiting. Perhaps they weren’t trying hard enough to push through the pain. I don’t know, but I do know their cries have haunted me for years.

I wonder if someone could answer this question…the men who for years sought to give the world anaesthesia and thus free women to have babies without the pain of childbirth; is this how we repay them? By turning away from these benefits in order to have so-called natural birth.

Some clown of a man in these comments was waffling on about pain and how it could be of benefit to be on the receiving end. Tell me have you thought of the unfortunate people in Dachau, Bergen-Belsen and hundreds of other concentration camps throughout WWII? Do you think the people being subjected to these experiments to help the master race to throw Aryan clones or experiment with twins understood the benefits of their pain, or do you think they would have preferred anaesthesia?

However, I become too obsessive. Therefore I’m suggesting something by way of a contest, as fair a contest as I can devise. One woman to have a baby without anaesthesia and a man to have a prostate tumor removed-also without anaesthesia. This will go on for the whole of next week. One woman for one man. When the various parties have recovered from their ordeal there will be a nice little get together to discuss their experiences. Coffee and cakes, no alcohol allowed. Ditto any form of tranquiliser.

RSPV ASAP.

Sound fair?

Liz45 also said something that shouldn’t go unchallenged:

“I was also told that I shouldn’t have had this man’s kids due to size difference(nobody mentioned that earlier???)”.

Whoever told you this is misinformed or misleading you. There is almost no correlation between parental size and baby size. Little people have big babies all the time, and big people have small babies. It’s to do with parental nutrition, gestation date, whether mum has diabetes, pre-ecclapsia - many many factors. So, hopefully that’s one old wive’s tale dispelled.

I have two children, one born in hospital, the other at home. Both without painkillers. My choice not to have drugs was simple. Women are told not to drink (not even one glass is safe?), smoke or take drugs (even drugs like paracetomol or ibuprofen should be questioned.) Yet medical personnel encourage the use of pethadine and other drugs in birth ‘normalising’ their use. This contradiction helped me decide that unless it was ‘needed’ (i.e. the safety of my baby or myself was at risk) I would not have them.

However this debate should not be about drug free births vs epidurals etc. This should be about information being provided to prospective parents so they can make informed decisions. This should be about empowering women to give birth actively and reminding them that in most cases this is possible. Then let them decide.

I acknowledge many women do actively seek information thus making informed decisions, however many others are forced to rely on the advice of their practitioner’s philosophy without realising there are other options to consider or readily being able to weigh up the risks of drugs vs pain in birth.

This is what I feel Dr. Walsh is trying to do. He is reframing the medical ‘pain is bad’ philosphy within childbirth by stating that pain actually plays a role and is natural. Childbirth cannot be compared to other procedures because in most cases birth is not associated with illness or procedures to ‘fix’ things.

Do all Neurosurgeons need to undergo brain operations? Should all Gynecologists have vaginas? I’m quite surprised that some women could feel so affronted by a Male Midwife offering very credible, sensible arguments to give women MORE information and offer them BETTER options in the birthing process (ie less drugs).

To all the knee-jerk reactionarier: please, do the rest of us a favour and actually READ the article, then do the math -Dr Walsh is on YOUR side. Life gets a lot harder than this.

The crux of this debate is really around the medicalisation of birth and the lack of options and alternative advice. I know I only found it by going out and searching really hard becasue I was interested in having a ‘natural’ birth. The hospital certainly wasn’t offering it in their antenatal classes!

He’s actually advocating more support and more information for women to make informed decisions — but people see ‘man’, ‘pain’ and ‘childbirth’ in a headline and immediately jump to conclusions.

Also think it’s a backward step to suggest that men can’t be included in this discussion, should we send them back into the waiting room to pace up and down and hand out cigars?

I don’t think he was saying that all women should endure painful births. However, as I turn to look at the face of my wife(4kids) and it seems I may be wrong about t..th..thi…this “my lovely, sexy, don’t you look nice ..no no, put down the knife……

I still don’t think it’s a man/woman thing, it’s an individual thing - we all have different pain thresholds, different builds, different psychological attitudes to pain and different abilities to give birth. However, there should be equality of opportunity, which there isn’t, so maybe that is what we should focus on!

In fact, isn’t there now a machine that men can strap on that simulates child birth? It was on television recently … I think the man lasted 3 and a half hours..

I personally think that pain can be a very useful and powerful tool-but to ever think of it as such requires one to hold a different perspective than what is generally encouraged in some cultures.

Agreed, pain thresholds do vary from person to person and many are the instances in which, the use of medical as well as physical measures to alleviate pain are not only useful but necessary. However, I honestly cannot at all see how what Dr. Walsh is saying is so far off from sensible and measured as has been (willfully?) portrayed by some…

If anyone is wondering: I am a woman.

Cheers.

I can’t imagine what it is like to give birth without actually feeling your body working like that. To not experience every second of it. It is amazing feeling your baby descend and move down inside you. And sure it hurt, but I had practiced and planned how to deal with it - hot shower, beautiful warm birth pool, and a husband, sister, mother and midwife (Robyn Dempsey) by my side encouraging me every step of the way. Sure there was a point where I thought, if someone offered me a cesear right now I’d take it - but I am so thankful I didn’t!