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	<title>Comments on: Are we paying too much for the Australian dream?</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Ross Fawthrop</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31447</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Ross Fawthrop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31447</guid>
		<description>We had a sub prime mortgage crisis before the yanks, during the recession we had to have. Or have you all forgotten that in 1990/1991 all australian real estate markets dropped, almost as far as the stock market. They just took longer to get there. The australian economy usually lags behind the rest of the world both on the way up and down.

Have you not seen the ads urging first home owners to buy on zero deposit, legals or stamp duty, because the FHOG covers all that. Together with ads from home wares retailers on zero deposit, no payments for 5 years. Have it all now? pay later?

Economic Stimulus has only delayed the crash until after an early election can be called.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We had a sub prime mortgage crisis before the yanks, during the recession we had to have. Or have you all forgotten that in 1990/1991 all australian real estate markets dropped, almost as far as the stock market. They just took longer to get there. The australian economy usually lags behind the rest of the world both on the way up and down.</p>
<p>Have you not seen the ads urging first home owners to buy on zero deposit, legals or stamp duty, because the FHOG covers all that. Together with ads from home wares retailers on zero deposit, no payments for 5 years. Have it all now? pay later?</p>
<p>Economic Stimulus has only delayed the crash until after an early election can be called.</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31119</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31119</guid>
		<description>If anyone but me is still reading this, an answer for AFOXRUSSELL might be that negative gearing was originally intended to help farmers get through bad years and new businesses get through the start-up period on the way to profitability. Using negative gearing as a structural component of an going concern with no intention of ever making a profit was once considered a loophole that needed closing, until the number of investors using that loophole made it politically untouchable.

But negative gearing isn&#039;t the only tax distortion to consider. What about the Capital Gains Tax? This tax took ten years from its inception to start having an effect on home prices (the opposite effect of that intended) because other factors needed to fall into place like the minerals boom. But it provided property-speculator spruikers a great reason to convince fellow speculators to buy and hold in certain markets, rather than selling after a few years as they used to. New (and in my opinion incredibly risky) investment models evolved in response to the CGT in which you can make money by leveraging off increased equity without ever selling a single property. It works best if many other speculators are doing the same thing, because together they reduce the available pool of properties for sale and thus the supply-demand imbalance.  That&#039;s why the proportion of investor-owned to owner-occupied houses (not just apartments) has risen in the last ten years. So of course, not very much CGT is actually collected on properties.

A fair policy option to consider would be excluding all residential property from Capital Gains Tax. This would allow speculators hit by hard times to exit cleanly and realize most of their capital gains. It would also increase the available pool of homes and thus help home buyers. Of course there is no free lunch; owners who choose not to sell would see a temporary drop in their beloved home prices. But owner-occupiers would also be able to move paying tenants into their homes without crossing over into CGT territory. There&#039;s no absolute win-win available in the cutthroat property market, but excluding homes from Capital Gains Tax may be the next best thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone but me is still reading this, an answer for AFOXRUSSELL might be that negative gearing was originally intended to help farmers get through bad years and new businesses get through the start-up period on the way to profitability. Using negative gearing as a structural component of an going concern with no intention of ever making a profit was once considered a loophole that needed closing, until the number of investors using that loophole made it politically untouchable.</p>
<p>But negative gearing isn&#8217;t the only tax distortion to consider. What about the Capital Gains Tax? This tax took ten years from its inception to start having an effect on home prices (the opposite effect of that intended) because other factors needed to fall into place like the minerals boom. But it provided property-speculator spruikers a great reason to convince fellow speculators to buy and hold in certain markets, rather than selling after a few years as they used to. New (and in my opinion incredibly risky) investment models evolved in response to the CGT in which you can make money by leveraging off increased equity without ever selling a single property. It works best if many other speculators are doing the same thing, because together they reduce the available pool of properties for sale and thus the supply-demand imbalance.  That&#8217;s why the proportion of investor-owned to owner-occupied houses (not just apartments) has risen in the last ten years. So of course, not very much CGT is actually collected on properties.</p>
<p>A fair policy option to consider would be excluding all residential property from Capital Gains Tax. This would allow speculators hit by hard times to exit cleanly and realize most of their capital gains. It would also increase the available pool of homes and thus help home buyers. Of course there is no free lunch; owners who choose not to sell would see a temporary drop in their beloved home prices. But owner-occupiers would also be able to move paying tenants into their homes without crossing over into CGT territory. There&#8217;s no absolute win-win available in the cutthroat property market, but excluding homes from Capital Gains Tax may be the next best thing.</p>
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		<title>By: brewesan</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31071</link>
		<dc:creator>brewesan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31071</guid>
		<description>We might not be Monaco but we might as well be in our Cities.  It&#039;s not the cost of housing that&#039;s the problem, it&#039;s the cost of LAND.  We have a generation of baby boomers with a vested interested in ensuring Nothing At All Changes.  (Trust me, I&#039;m from Perth and we&#039;re full of them).  We have suburbs full of the 1960s quarter acre block with empty nesters or a single old lady living on them.   Of course, there&#039;s no political will to promote density.  
Additionally, any land suitable for development is obliterated by the green movement.  This is driven, once again, by the baby boomers sitting in their comfy homes tut-tutting about saving the lovely cockatoos that visit in the evening.    The extensive UWA bushland just 5 km from the CBD that has been earmarked for development for 100 years (and now won&#039;t be) is case in point.  Our &quot;green enlightenment&quot; comes at great cost to today&#039;s families.
So while the baby boomers sit fat, dumb and happy, their Gen X children are in families where both parents are working to desperately pay a mortgage double the relative value of the baby boomer generation.
A huge cache of baby boomers turn 60 this year.  In the next ten years, their inevitable downsizing, I predict, will put incredible downward pressure on housing values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We might not be Monaco but we might as well be in our Cities.  It&#8217;s not the cost of housing that&#8217;s the problem, it&#8217;s the cost of LAND.  We have a generation of baby boomers with a vested interested in ensuring Nothing At All Changes.  (Trust me, I&#8217;m from Perth and we&#8217;re full of them).  We have suburbs full of the 1960s quarter acre block with empty nesters or a single old lady living on them.   Of course, there&#8217;s no political will to promote density.<br />
Additionally, any land suitable for development is obliterated by the green movement.  This is driven, once again, by the baby boomers sitting in their comfy homes tut-tutting about saving the lovely cockatoos that visit in the evening.    The extensive UWA bushland just 5 km from the CBD that has been earmarked for development for 100 years (and now won&#8217;t be) is case in point.  Our &#8220;green enlightenment&#8221; comes at great cost to today&#8217;s families.<br />
So while the baby boomers sit fat, dumb and happy, their Gen X children are in families where both parents are working to desperately pay a mortgage double the relative value of the baby boomer generation.<br />
A huge cache of baby boomers turn 60 this year.  In the next ten years, their inevitable downsizing, I predict, will put incredible downward pressure on housing values.</p>
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		<title>By: AR</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31065</link>
		<dc:creator>AR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31065</guid>
		<description>YES! qed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YES! qed.</p>
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		<title>By: sam.birmingham</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31062</link>
		<dc:creator>sam.birmingham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31062</guid>
		<description>Why shouldn&#039;t AFOX be allowed to claim those additional expenses as a tax deduction? 
1) Ummm... Maybe a good starting point would be to ask the other 190-odd countries that don&#039;t permit negative gearing?
2) Even without negative gearing, you could still claim those expenses as tax deductions, AFOX... To the extent that the investment has earned income.
3) Before we ask anyone why you shouldn&#039;t be able to claim those additional expenses as tax deductions, perhaps it would be better to ask the majority of taxpayers who don&#039;t negatively-gear WHY they should continue to subsidise property speculators&#039; cost of capital to the tune of $6b per annum?

But back to FHOGs... Two queries:
1) What was the average house price when Howard introduced the FHOG? What is it now? And how does that annual growth rate compare to increases in wages / GDP / etc over the same period?
2) Does it not seem strange that the size of an average FHO mortgage is now HIGHER than an average non-FHO mortgage? Why would the demographic that has negligible equity, lower-paid jobs and greater risk of unemployment be gearing themselves up to a higher level than the rest of the population? It wouldn&#039;t have anything to do with the free carrots being dangled in front of them, would it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why shouldn&#8217;t AFOX be allowed to claim those additional expenses as a tax deduction?<br />
1) Ummm&#8230; Maybe a good starting point would be to ask the other 190-odd countries that don&#8217;t permit negative gearing?<br />
2) Even without negative gearing, you could still claim those expenses as tax deductions, AFOX&#8230; To the extent that the investment has earned income.<br />
3) Before we ask anyone why you shouldn&#8217;t be able to claim those additional expenses as tax deductions, perhaps it would be better to ask the majority of taxpayers who don&#8217;t negatively-gear WHY they should continue to subsidise property speculators&#8217; cost of capital to the tune of $6b per annum?</p>
<p>But back to FHOGs&#8230; Two queries:<br />
1) What was the average house price when Howard introduced the FHOG? What is it now? And how does that annual growth rate compare to increases in wages / GDP / etc over the same period?<br />
2) Does it not seem strange that the size of an average FHO mortgage is now HIGHER than an average non-FHO mortgage? Why would the demographic that has negligible equity, lower-paid jobs and greater risk of unemployment be gearing themselves up to a higher level than the rest of the population? It wouldn&#8217;t have anything to do with the free carrots being dangled in front of them, would it?</p>
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		<title>By: afoxrussell</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31045</link>
		<dc:creator>afoxrussell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31045</guid>
		<description>I would have thought the Crikey readership would be a bit above dragging out the old anti-negative gearing argument. Why can&#039;t I claim as a tax deduction the expenses incurred (bank interest) in earning an income (rent)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have thought the Crikey readership would be a bit above dragging out the old anti-negative gearing argument. Why can&#8217;t I claim as a tax deduction the expenses incurred (bank interest) in earning an income (rent)?</p>
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		<title>By: David Howe</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31042</link>
		<dc:creator>David Howe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31042</guid>
		<description>I think James has a good point, and your article, while pointing out the problem with Ozzie bank lending fails to really bring attention to the 800lb gorilla in the room. The Rudd government since coming to power has totally bent over backwards to maintain property prices at their current level. The headlines about cash splashes and minor falls in employment hide the fact that the real game for Rudd and Co is preventing a crash in the housing market, such a crash would almost certainly hand the opposition a large slab of disaffected voters regardless of whether or not this government is to blame.

No government wants to be in power when the sh*t hits the fan and Rudd knows this only too well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think James has a good point, and your article, while pointing out the problem with Ozzie bank lending fails to really bring attention to the 800lb gorilla in the room. The Rudd government since coming to power has totally bent over backwards to maintain property prices at their current level. The headlines about cash splashes and minor falls in employment hide the fact that the real game for Rudd and Co is preventing a crash in the housing market, such a crash would almost certainly hand the opposition a large slab of disaffected voters regardless of whether or not this government is to blame.</p>
<p>No government wants to be in power when the sh*t hits the fan and Rudd knows this only too well.</p>
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		<title>By: Altakoi</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31030</link>
		<dc:creator>Altakoi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31030</guid>
		<description>I agree with your view of the slow subprime our banks are visiting on Australia. The argument that we haven&#039;t had a collapse yet, so lets just keep doing what produced a collapse everywhere else has always struck me as a bit thick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your view of the slow subprime our banks are visiting on Australia. The argument that we haven&#8217;t had a collapse yet, so lets just keep doing what produced a collapse everywhere else has always struck me as a bit thick.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31026</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 06:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31026</guid>
		<description>That&#039;d be fewer loans, not less.

M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;d be fewer loans, not less.</p>
<p>M</p>
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		<title>By: james mcdonald</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31002</link>
		<dc:creator>james mcdonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-31002</guid>
		<description>The FHOG is not &quot;bad policy&quot;, it&#039;s just disguised as bad policy. In fact there are no votes to gain and lots of them to lose by making homes affordable. There are just so many more property holders than ready buyers at any one time. Add in Australia&#039;s banks, for reasons I think Adam has got exactly right, and there really isn&#039;t an affordability lobby worth ten seconds of the PM&#039;s time.

Notice how Kevin Rudd quietly dropped barriers to overseas investment in Australian residential property over Christmas? How about the fury of Wentworth voters/homeowners in 2007, holding John Howard responsible for the drop in their local values? (See the Australian, 16/07/2007 http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22080703-2702,00.html).

Think of high prices as another form of borrowing from the future for economic stimulus now. Retirees live it up today, newlyweds work off the debt in years to come, before passing it on to tomorrow&#039;s children, and so on. Almost all the losers are children or still unborn - not a lot of voters in that lot!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The FHOG is not &#8220;bad policy&#8221;, it&#8217;s just disguised as bad policy. In fact there are no votes to gain and lots of them to lose by making homes affordable. There are just so many more property holders than ready buyers at any one time. Add in Australia&#8217;s banks, for reasons I think Adam has got exactly right, and there really isn&#8217;t an affordability lobby worth ten seconds of the PM&#8217;s time.</p>
<p>Notice how Kevin Rudd quietly dropped barriers to overseas investment in Australian residential property over Christmas? How about the fury of Wentworth voters/homeowners in 2007, holding John Howard responsible for the drop in their local values? (See the Australian, 16/07/2007 <a href="http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22080703-2702,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22080703-2702,00.html</a>).</p>
<p>Think of high prices as another form of borrowing from the future for economic stimulus now. Retirees live it up today, newlyweds work off the debt in years to come, before passing it on to tomorrow&#8217;s children, and so on. Almost all the losers are children or still unborn - not a lot of voters in that lot!</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Clifton</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30984</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Clifton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30984</guid>
		<description>It would help if the FHOG only applied to new houses, not existing ones.
Then the subsidy would be increasing supply, instead of demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would help if the FHOG only applied to new houses, not existing ones.<br />
Then the subsidy would be increasing supply, instead of demand.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Prasad</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30979</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Prasad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30979</guid>
		<description>Good article Adam.  However as covered in the recent series &quot;Ascent of Money&quot; on the ABC, which suggested lending gets really hairy when there is no relationship to income to repay.  Ie. LVR is just one component in lending - equally capacity to repay is just as important.  And at 6 times earnings the capacity to repay doesnt leave much of a life.  

The problem with looking at just LVR is as you point out its a bit circular as the inflated values support a greater debt.  The feedback loop creates wobbly valuations. But income vs loan is absolute - do you have data on the trend in that?  

I&#039;m not predicting this, but if some major unforseen external shock hits and we get unemployment and falling real incomes then that will be the double whammy.  The Ascent of Money series pointed to various wars, oil shocks etc that have triggered this. &quot;Nobody expected Spanish Inquisition....&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article Adam.  However as covered in the recent series &#8220;Ascent of Money&#8221; on the ABC, which suggested lending gets really hairy when there is no relationship to income to repay.  Ie. LVR is just one component in lending - equally capacity to repay is just as important.  And at 6 times earnings the capacity to repay doesnt leave much of a life.  </p>
<p>The problem with looking at just LVR is as you point out its a bit circular as the inflated values support a greater debt.  The feedback loop creates wobbly valuations. But income vs loan is absolute - do you have data on the trend in that?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not predicting this, but if some major unforseen external shock hits and we get unemployment and falling real incomes then that will be the double whammy.  The Ascent of Money series pointed to various wars, oil shocks etc that have triggered this. &#8220;Nobody expected Spanish Inquisition&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: asdusty</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30978</link>
		<dc:creator>asdusty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30978</guid>
		<description>And what about negative gearing?  Asset rich investors buying up expensive inner city property safe in the knowledge they can rent it out at outrageous prices and be subsidised by the tax payer.  This middle class welfare/tax rort  is also keeping house prices too high and its removal would not only save the government money but make housing more affordable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what about negative gearing?  Asset rich investors buying up expensive inner city property safe in the knowledge they can rent it out at outrageous prices and be subsidised by the tax payer.  This middle class welfare/tax rort  is also keeping house prices too high and its removal would not only save the government money but make housing more affordable.</p>
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		<title>By: Glen Frost</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30974</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen Frost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 02:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/13/are-we-paying-too-much-for-the-australian-dream/#comment-30974</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article Adam. I would be interested to know what percentage of first time home buyers have received the odd 50K from the asset rich parents; when my wife and I bought our house, all the other prospective buyers were youngsters with Boomer parents in tow</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article Adam. I would be interested to know what percentage of first time home buyers have received the odd 50K from the asset rich parents; when my wife and I bought our house, all the other prospective buyers were youngsters with Boomer parents in tow</p>
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