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	<title>Comments on: Cow farts: worse than all coal-fired power stations combined</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Roger Clifton</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30748</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Clifton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30748</guid>
		<description>Any destination for vegetation growth involves at least some methane emission.  For example, termites and fire also emit methane.  It seems that there is a rough balance in biospheric carbon.  So far most methane emissions are biological, with Congo and Amazon basins  among the main emitting areas.  Far from accelerating, the graph of atmospheric methane rise has tapered off in the  last decade, as land use changed.  

What we do need to watch is the growth of fugitive emissions from &quot;natural&quot; gas which must accelerate as pipelines and LNG facilities age.  Arctic clathrates also stand to count far more than biospheric methane emissions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any destination for vegetation growth involves at least some methane emission.  For example, termites and fire also emit methane.  It seems that there is a rough balance in biospheric carbon.  So far most methane emissions are biological, with Congo and Amazon basins  among the main emitting areas.  Far from accelerating, the graph of atmospheric methane rise has tapered off in the  last decade, as land use changed.  </p>
<p>What we do need to watch is the growth of fugitive emissions from &#8220;natural&#8221; gas which must accelerate as pipelines and LNG facilities age.  Arctic clathrates also stand to count far more than biospheric methane emissions.</p>
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		<title>By: meski</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30744</link>
		<dc:creator>meski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30744</guid>
		<description>Paul, yes, that&#039;s what I&#039;m suggesting.  And giving an analogy.  It&#039;s unfortunate perhaps that these perceptions exist, but they do, encouraged by sponsored pseudo-research that goes on.  Chocolate is good for you?  Research sponsored by Cadbury.  Cigarettes don&#039;t cause harm?  Sponsored by BAT.  In the same way, an article written by PETA/Animal liberation/ etc about the non-desirability of red meat consumption because of methane production rather than the ethics that are usually used to support their arguments is going to attract scepticism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, yes, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m suggesting.  And giving an analogy.  It&#8217;s unfortunate perhaps that these perceptions exist, but they do, encouraged by sponsored pseudo-research that goes on.  Chocolate is good for you?  Research sponsored by Cadbury.  Cigarettes don&#8217;t cause harm?  Sponsored by BAT.  In the same way, an article written by PETA/Animal liberation/ etc about the non-desirability of red meat consumption because of methane production rather than the ethics that are usually used to support their arguments is going to attract scepticism.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Purser</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30742</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Purser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30742</guid>
		<description>1.	Cattle eructate (belch) methane it is not derived from farting.

2.	Cattle do not burn fossil C. They consume forage that has captured atmospheric C during the growth of the forage. Of the C consumed in the forage only 4.5% is belched as methane. Using the factor of 21 (the factor of 100 is a different issue) belched methane as CO2-e is about equal to the CO2 trapped by the growing plant. The net contribution of cattle to CO2-e will only be the CO2 derived from cattle in addition to methane. Consequently decreasing the cattle population, while having a significant impact upon emissions, will have at best a small impact upon climate change.
The net change in CO2-e is the measure that has an impact upon climate change. Emissions (outputs) are only half of the overall biological system, inputs must also be considered to allow an estimate of net change.
The eurocentric rules of the Kyoto agreement focus only on emissions, and Australia for that reason has to control emissions but the Australian community should be aware that control of emissions will not necessarily relate to a proportionate impact upon climate change, particularly in the case of cattle. 

I am surprised that someone who appears to be a self professed knowledgeable person is unaware that methane from cattle is belched, not farted, and suggests that decreasing cattle numbers will have a significant impact on climate change and does this by using only half of the relevant information to support the argument. I can only assume that the passion is associated with issues other than climate change alone.

I am not a climate skeptic and discussion is needed but such discussion needs to consider all of the components not just a selection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.	Cattle eructate (belch) methane it is not derived from farting.</p>
<p>2.	Cattle do not burn fossil C. They consume forage that has captured atmospheric C during the growth of the forage. Of the C consumed in the forage only 4.5% is belched as methane. Using the factor of 21 (the factor of 100 is a different issue) belched methane as CO2-e is about equal to the CO2 trapped by the growing plant. The net contribution of cattle to CO2-e will only be the CO2 derived from cattle in addition to methane. Consequently decreasing the cattle population, while having a significant impact upon emissions, will have at best a small impact upon climate change.<br />
The net change in CO2-e is the measure that has an impact upon climate change. Emissions (outputs) are only half of the overall biological system, inputs must also be considered to allow an estimate of net change.<br />
The eurocentric rules of the Kyoto agreement focus only on emissions, and Australia for that reason has to control emissions but the Australian community should be aware that control of emissions will not necessarily relate to a proportionate impact upon climate change, particularly in the case of cattle. </p>
<p>I am surprised that someone who appears to be a self professed knowledgeable person is unaware that methane from cattle is belched, not farted, and suggests that decreasing cattle numbers will have a significant impact on climate change and does this by using only half of the relevant information to support the argument. I can only assume that the passion is associated with issues other than climate change alone.</p>
<p>I am not a climate skeptic and discussion is needed but such discussion needs to consider all of the components not just a selection.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk Broadhurst</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30663</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk Broadhurst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 05:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30663</guid>
		<description>I agree completely that methane is overlooked, and most likely because of the attachment that most people have to meat.

However I think that your analogy of blowtorch v hotwater bottle is quite a stretch.  As you note yourself, 

&quot;the relative impacts of ALL greenhouse gases are averaged over the same period 100 years&quot;.

This means that after 100 years the impact of the tonne of methane will be equivalent to that of 23 tonnes of CO2.   

You could not state that after apply a blowtorch for 10 seconds and a hot water bottle for 20 minutes would have the same impact after 20 minutes.  Skin is not like an atmosphere.  The analogy is quite poor.

If you compared impact over 5 years, then the focus on methane would rightly be relatively higher.  I believe that the long term view is more important than the 5 year view.  CO2 is also an important part of the equation, and if we only looked at a 5 year view then we would be giving far too much weighting to methane and other gases which break down relatively quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree completely that methane is overlooked, and most likely because of the attachment that most people have to meat.</p>
<p>However I think that your analogy of blowtorch v hotwater bottle is quite a stretch.  As you note yourself, </p>
<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>the relative impacts of ALL greenhouse gases are averaged over the same period 100 years&#8221;.</p>
<p>This means that after 100 years the impact of the tonne of methane will be equivalent to that of 23 tonnes of CO2.   </p>
<p>You could not state that after apply a blowtorch for 10 seconds and a hot water bottle for 20 minutes would have the same impact after 20 minutes.  Skin is not like an atmosphere.  The analogy is quite poor.</p>
<p>If you compared impact over 5 years, then the focus on methane would rightly be relatively higher.  I believe that the long term view is more important than the 5 year view.  CO2 is also an important part of the equation, and if we only looked at a 5 year view then we would be giving far too much weighting to methane and other gases which break down relatively quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Clifton</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30570</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Clifton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30570</guid>
		<description>Methane does at least have the redeeming feature that it punishes the generation which emitted it. In contrast, the consequences of our carbon dioxide emissions will be visited upon many generations of our descendants, long past any conversion from carbon fuels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Methane does at least have the redeeming feature that it punishes the generation which emitted it. In contrast, the consequences of our carbon dioxide emissions will be visited upon many generations of our descendants, long past any conversion from carbon fuels.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Errington</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30568</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Errington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30568</guid>
		<description>If we replace cow and sheep consumption with kangaroo consumtion, this should solve the problem and create a huge export market for Australia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we replace cow and sheep consumption with kangaroo consumtion, this should solve the problem and create a huge export market for Australia.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Ferraro</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30562</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Ferraro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30562</guid>
		<description>Meski, in what manner is the article biased? Is it because the author&#039;s affiliations? 

I would suggest that the article draws upon the findings of numerous scientific studies - each of which had to have passed through the rigours of the peer review process prior to publication.

Two sentences seem adequate justification for this piece:

1. ...It [the previous article] wasn’t a defence of coal, it was a plea for people to understand the role of methane as a potent climate forcing and to understand that cattle methane is no laughing matter...

2. ...Unfortunately, not much has changed. The world’s media continues to misrepresent the potency of methane and cattle methane continues to prompt cartoons rather than action...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meski, in what manner is the article biased? Is it because the author&#8217;s affiliations? </p>
<p>I would suggest that the article draws upon the findings of numerous scientific studies - each of which had to have passed through the rigours of the peer review process prior to publication.</p>
<p>Two sentences seem adequate justification for this piece:</p>
<p>1. &#8230;It [the previous article] wasn’t a defence of coal, it was a plea for people to understand the role of methane as a potent climate forcing and to understand that cattle methane is no laughing matter&#8230;</p>
<p>2. &#8230;Unfortunately, not much has changed. The world’s media continues to misrepresent the potency of methane and cattle methane continues to prompt cartoons rather than action&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Damon Schultz</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30558</link>
		<dc:creator>Damon Schultz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30558</guid>
		<description>Terry - that&#039;s a shabby, illogical response that misses the point of the article entirely.

You either acknowledge that methane from beef production is a significant and growing factor in global warming, or you don&#039;t. If you don&#039;t, then it&#039;s up to you to demonstrate why not in the face of the science which seems (to this non-scientist) to be movingm to an acceptance of the role of methane in global warming.

If on the other hand you do accept this nexus, then metaphorically holding your hands against your ears and pretending you can&#039;t hear the message, i.e. &quot;man is not a herbivore&quot;, &quot;your brand of vegan activism won&#039;t solve the climate problems of our planet&quot;, etc. isn&#039;t really a viable strategy for how we deal with the problem.

To be fair, some solutions not involving reduction in animal meat production have been proposed. But then, of course, there is the solution of reducing our consumption of (cow) meat. Fairly obvious parallels to reducing our consumption of energy surely exist,  and I really don&#039;t see why reducing our consumption of (fossil fuel-derived) energy can be seen as a viable and responsible strategy by those involved in public policy, yet reducing our consumption of animal products is seen as &quot;vegan activism&quot;.

There was a time when those who advocated changing energy consumption for the sake of avoiding catastrophic climate change were seen as &quot;climate extremists&quot;. Those times - thankfully - are increasingly behind us.  Why should reducing the emission of methane by reducing our animal meat consumption be seen in such a different light? That is the question that critics of so-called &quot;vegan activists&quot; need to answer, and with more considered responses than setting up straw-men arguments about herbivores and carnivores.

(By the way, &quot;man&quot; [sic] has survived - and indeed, thrived - on much, much smaller servings of animal meat until very, very recently. That&#039;s worth bearing in mind before you dismiss the capacity of human beings to change their diet to achieve other goals.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry - that&#8217;s a shabby, illogical response that misses the point of the article entirely.</p>
<p>You either acknowledge that methane from beef production is a significant and growing factor in global warming, or you don&#8217;t. If you don&#8217;t, then it&#8217;s up to you to demonstrate why not in the face of the science which seems (to this non-scientist) to be movingm to an acceptance of the role of methane in global warming.</p>
<p>If on the other hand you do accept this nexus, then metaphorically holding your hands against your ears and pretending you can&#8217;t hear the message, i.e. &#8220;man is not a herbivore&#8221;, &#8220;your brand of vegan activism won&#8217;t solve the climate problems of our planet&#8221;, etc. isn&#8217;t really a viable strategy for how we deal with the problem.</p>
<p>To be fair, some solutions not involving reduction in animal meat production have been proposed. But then, of course, there is the solution of reducing our consumption of (cow) meat. Fairly obvious parallels to reducing our consumption of energy surely exist,  and I really don&#8217;t see why reducing our consumption of (fossil fuel-derived) energy can be seen as a viable and responsible strategy by those involved in public policy, yet reducing our consumption of animal products is seen as &#8220;vegan activism&#8221;.</p>
<p>There was a time when those who advocated changing energy consumption for the sake of avoiding catastrophic climate change were seen as &#8220;climate extremists&#8221;. Those times - thankfully - are increasingly behind us.  Why should reducing the emission of methane by reducing our animal meat consumption be seen in such a different light? That is the question that critics of so-called &#8220;vegan activists&#8221; need to answer, and with more considered responses than setting up straw-men arguments about herbivores and carnivores.</p>
<p>(By the way, &#8220;man&#8221; [sic] has survived - and indeed, thrived - on much, much smaller servings of animal meat until very, very recently. That&#8217;s worth bearing in mind before you dismiss the capacity of human beings to change their diet to achieve other goals.)</p>
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		<title>By: meski</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30557</link>
		<dc:creator>meski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30557</guid>
		<description>Paul, I think Terry alludes to the biased POV that the author has.  A similar POV would be the coal industry asserting that burning coal doesn&#039;t increase carbon in the atmosphere, and they wouldn&#039;t be that hypocritical, surely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, I think Terry alludes to the biased POV that the author has.  A similar POV would be the coal industry asserting that burning coal doesn&#8217;t increase carbon in the atmosphere, and they wouldn&#8217;t be that hypocritical, surely?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Ferraro</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30554</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Ferraro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 06:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30554</guid>
		<description>Terry Barnes  - fair shake of the sauce bottle, mate.

Unless I completely missed the nonsense statement you attribute to the author, the article argues primarily for an increased recognition for the critical role of methane in climate change and suggests a significant reduction in global red meat consumption may achieve this. 

Although this may arguably be an unrealistic short-term goal (consider the economic and cultural &#039;importance&#039; of the agriculture industry within our society) it is a more constructive component of a necessary conversation than the flippant motherhood statements which are predictably rolled out in response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry Barnes  - fair shake of the sauce bottle, mate.</p>
<p>Unless I completely missed the nonsense statement you attribute to the author, the article argues primarily for an increased recognition for the critical role of methane in climate change and suggests a significant reduction in global red meat consumption may achieve this. </p>
<p>Although this may arguably be an unrealistic short-term goal (consider the economic and cultural &#8216;importance&#8217; of the agriculture industry within our society) it is a more constructive component of a necessary conversation than the flippant motherhood statements which are predictably rolled out in response.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh (Charlie) McColl</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30547</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh (Charlie) McColl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30547</guid>
		<description>Terry Barnes, I would like to see just one checkable statistic which properly demonstrates that &quot;...large swathes of the less arable parts of the Third World with high meat, low vegetable diets...&quot; actually exist.  Smugness won&#039;t come into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry Barnes, I would like to see just one checkable statistic which properly demonstrates that &#8220;&#8230;large swathes of the less arable parts of the Third World with high meat, low vegetable diets&#8230;&#8221; actually exist.  Smugness won&#8217;t come into it.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry Barnes</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30504</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Barnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/07/07/cow-farts-do-more-damage-than-all-coal-fired-power-stations-combined/#comment-30504</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll happily help to reduce cow methane - waiter, another rib eye steak please...

Seriously, though, this is a shocking piece of naive intellectual smugness.  Come off it Geoff, man is not a herbivore and your brand of vegan activism won&#039;t solve the climate problems of our planet.  And incidentally, if you have your way large swathes of the less arable parts of the Third World with high meat, low vegetable diets (Mongolia comes to mind for starters) will starve.  Is that what you mind - I somehow doubt it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll happily help to reduce cow methane - waiter, another rib eye steak please&#8230;</p>
<p>Seriously, though, this is a shocking piece of naive intellectual smugness.  Come off it Geoff, man is not a herbivore and your brand of vegan activism won&#8217;t solve the climate problems of our planet.  And incidentally, if you have your way large swathes of the less arable parts of the Third World with high meat, low vegetable diets (Mongolia comes to mind for starters) will starve.  Is that what you mind - I somehow doubt it.</p>
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