I don’t think that James gets the point that although we are better off, it’s only at the expense of most of the world. And even then this is only going to be for blink of an eye in the overall scheme of things, after which the world will be completely stuffed and we will be back were we started. But I guess he must think it is worth it.

As the only statistical non-outlier I’ve ever met (blond, blue eyed, urban-born, middle-class) I sit in utter envy of how good they’ve got it.

Well, Jimmy, a Dutch oven is when you fart under a blanket. It benefits no-one, even the do-er eventually regrets it. Or, it’s when you smoke a bong in the back of a panel van - more fun, but resultant reasoning fairly suspect.

The black fellas up there must be living the dream.

btw What’s a dutch oven style opinion ? It sounds good.

you don’t understand: -

* simple (low-grade) satire

* how people lived back then

* that keeping warm wasn’t/isn’t a huge priority for many Indigenous people (where I am in northern Australia at 8:30 at night in July it’s 24 degrees, so I’m not quite shivering yet)

* simple punctuation (it’s heroes, not hero’s, Jimbo)

* that it’s outcomes (i.e. major river systems completely fucked, huge areas salinated, mass-scale deforestation, almost universal water pollution) rather than pretty planning that matters - two centuries of ‘superior’ management vs. many millenia of ‘primitive’ living that had far less toxic and chronic effects

… and yet - despite all this - you feel qualified to air your opinions, Dutch oven-style. Give us a break, learn to think, perchance read, then come back and talk to normal people.

Once you’ve done that, come to the NT and sit at the feet of far superior intellects (and hearts) and learn something. After a few years you might consider passing on some of your own wisdom, such as it is, but first just have some sense and observe and learn.

You keep missing the point entirely. Moving cultures is not an option. It seems that why this is so goes well over your head.

But i’m not really full of self-hate nor frightened. I couldn’t really understand the rest of your post so i’ll reply in the traditional indigenous manner by averting my eyes and remaining mute.

Jon , so your view is - civilisation as we know it is inferior to the alternative original aboriginal model of do nothing sustainability.

You’re probably right, i’ll send my next post by message stick.

I don’t really know how people lived back then but i’d be suprised if there was much sustainability planning going on. I think it may have been more of the ‘find food, keep warm ,don’t get killed’ protocol.

Don’t forget , indigenous culture isn’t unique to Australia. Lots of countries peoples lived like that 2000 years ago but most of them have since foolishly moved on.
It’s mostly only hero’s like your good selves who can still see the benefit of promoting that caveman like lifestyle .

I’m wondering what you think?

I would be interested in your opinion about their culture being primitive.

I’m really not sure that this is true. You see, the Murray is now stuffed. Global warming might be happening. We will run out of oil in 10, 20, 100, 200, 300 or 100 years depending on how much denial people seem to have. This must happen mustn’t it? Or are there unlimited supplies?

I guess we will in fact run out of everything we dig out of the ground sooner or later, unless we can come up with a renewable substitute.

Our civilisation depends on these things. So what will our civilisation be like in 30 to 60,000 years?

Compare this to the simple, primitive black persons existence in Australia for 30-60,000 years where they seemed to have lived sustainably as far as we know. At least they seemed to have lived the same way for that long.

Does that mean they are smarter than us, because they realised it’s dumb to piss in your rainwater tank (an interesting metaphor isn’t it?) and we haven’t? Does this mean we will be living a primitive hunter gatherer existence in 100, 200, 300 or 1000 years because it is the only sustainable way of living?

What do you think?

thank you for providing our Anthropology 101 class with this excellent satirical article. Despite its excellent send-up of the archetypal frightened, self-hating Anglo-Australian, we do think that you go too far - surely no-one could believe in such a gross caricature?

It’s almost rascist to portray Anglo-Australians as so wilfully ignorant and reflexively un-selfreflective. Regardless of some unfortunate past actions by a small minority in generations long since gone, the great majority of Anglo-Australians are open-minded, intelligent and compassionate people who are able to not only tolerate, but accept, diversity, both of opinion and worldview. They are also able to think and discuss rationally and politely without being befogged by their own personal opinions or national-ethnic myths.

We think you are most unfair to suggest that Anglo-Australians are mired in the same old mean attitudes of days long gone and that any mention of Indigenous - non-Indigenous issues will result in a tidal wave of bilious hate and stereotyping.

Thank you again for this article, which has greatly assisted us in our studies of Anglo-Australian society and culture, but could we suggest that in future you create a character with a little more realism and subtlety,

regards,

Anthro 101, class of 1972

And they have to learn all this by the time they are 5 years old !

So Bob as far as dipping my toe , just because people sit around and talk bullshit about the past it doesn’t mean it actually happened or that it was any better than it is today.

And Liz - Yes i can see how living in bark huts and hunting and fishing every day to feed myself is so much better than what we do now.Those aboriginals really knew what they were doing by not building anything or writing anything down or growing anything.

Still i guess they always had that ‘strong kinship thing’ going for them. It’s served them well.

Now i refute i am saying i am superior to any living person but i’m pretty sure the way most of us choose to live today will stand favorable comparison with any 20,000 year old lifestyle.

“Why not let these people join our way of life instead of always pushing them back to the past.”

Are you serious?!? This is so stupid it doesn’t even need rebutting.

“…what was only ever a very basic hunter gatherer society”

This is also moronic and shouldn’t need rebutting, but….. What do you know about (so-called traditional) Indigenous society? If you think it was basic that can only be based on (wilful?) ignorance. The basics of kinship are too complex for most non-Indigenous people, even though a 5 y/old Indigenous kid has mastered them. Materially basic certainly, but are you so shallow that you can’t see beyond that? There are many aspects of Indigenous society far more complex than non-Indigenous society (and vice-versa, naturally), and not just kinship. If you’d take the time to dip in those deep waters you couldn’t fail to be awed.

This is not to romanticise, blah blah, it’s just that it’s a DIFFERENT culture and as much as you don’t want to be/couldn’t be Japanese, Russian, Nigerian….. join the dots.

And no-one’s stopping ‘them’ joining ‘us’ (why do you assume ‘they’ don’t read Crikey?), but there’s lots of people making it very hard to be ‘them’, so why don’t we all have some respect and let us all be ‘us’, whoever that is?

I’m not sure what seeing movies has got to do with my ignorance of ‘aboriginal culture ’ but if you think hand signals, shyness and superstitions about the dead are somehow positive virtues then i think you may have been born 200 years too late.

I draw your attention to my prev post-
‘Just because some dopes want to attribute some mythical status to what was only ever a very basic hunter gatherer society, we now have present day indigenous people pressured to keep looking to the past as some sort of Utopia.’

People believe in all sorts of rubbish , which we ( as a society ) tolerate, deny, or support depending on where you live or what movies you’ve seen but it’s still rubbish.

I’m not smarter than anyone mate but the things you find cute in your ideal movie abo would also be traits of a cartoon character or a puppy.

Why not let these people join our way of life instead of always pushing them back to the past.

Define “very basic hunter gatherer”.

It appears that you have never known an Aboriginal person.

If so, can you explain to me why they are often mute and avoid eye contact?

What do you know about hand signals? (Have you seen Samson and Delilah?)

Why can you not say the name of deceased person? Even if yours is the same. If so, what does your name then become?

Why do they have to blame someone for something going wrong, often assaulting them. (again, see Samson and Delilah).

Sorry mate, at least they do not appear to judge people when they clearly know nothing about them. If you think you are smarter than they you have just done a good job of demonstrating that you are not.

What’s next?

There was an article in the Sun Herald last weekend, how the indigenous peoples in Peru and other places are literally waging a war against those who want to rape and destroy their land, their food availability and pollute their waters etc. This has been done in this country up until now, and will probably only get worse - more uranium mines, gas in WA, a proposed nuclear waste dump in the NT(read up on the 4?proposed different sites - a national disgrace if it happens)to name just a few. I’m old enough to recall the court case over Nabalco(bauxite - read how that stuff pollutes) in the NT? Aboriginal culture kept this country in pristine condition - we’ve raped it in just over 200 years. I can’t understand why people can’t see the inate injustice in indigenous people having their land stolen(violently, sometimes after a 100 yr old war/s) and then having to spend up to 10 years in some cases, with all sorts of conditions and ‘areas’ of proof required to get a bit of it back? Amazing!

I’m proud to live in a country where the indigenous peoples’ culture is the oldest on the planet - ever! I try to educate myself about it on a constant basis. I wish that govts would involve those elders and others who have so much knowledge and wisdom about this land and how to protect and enjoy it. We’re too damned ignorant!
Why don’t you complain or query the Italian or Greek or Chinese culture? Could it be, that while there’s racist attitudes about these people, the worst racist attitudes are kept for the indigenous people of this land?

ALTAKOI - Watch some documentaries that are available on line - War on Democracy; Palestine is still the issue(many similarities to aboriginal people of Aust.)The Fourth World War; Unconstitutional-the war on Civil Liberties in the US(PATRIOT Act/after 9/11 etc). You can relate other peoples’ oppression to aboriginal people in this country - same reasons, same outcomes? Read Demons at Dusk by Peter Stewart(about the massacre at Myall Creek); Henry Reynolds’ books; There’s a video about MABO I got from my library. Most public libraries have a large section on aboriginal people, customs, history etc/Biographies.

Just because some dopes want to attribute some mythical status to what was only ever a very basic hunter gatherer society, we now have present day indigenous people pressured to keep looking to the past as some sort of Utopia.

People will change the way they live when they are sick of how they are living now. What can hold them back is a forced attachement to a crap lifestyle that others may have an historical or emotional investment in.

If people want to live and talk like cavemen then thats ok but they can also choose to live a modern lifestyle if they want to and the reason they can choose is because they are people. It’s up to them.

So there - problem solved !

Whats next ?

I just want to know why discussion on historical and continuing racism in Australia seems to create such a cringe amongst white Australia?

Please allow me to generalise for the sake of another defective internet post that only a small world of people will read, but quick skim here seems to suggest 2 types of response:

1. History is over, discussion has nothing to offer: Expressed by comments like less talk just do something. Aboriginal outrage offends, it is not how a polite society works. Or other places are worse, so that makes Australia good.

2. That racism never existed: Amuses that some people are just inherently bad and that’s why they are over represented in the states prisons. Its the individual parents fault. It’s indigenous culture that has always been that way. Or Other places are worse so that makes us good.

Why do a lot of people get so worked up trying to deflecting it?

So Liz, according to your last post

a) The situation mny in South Africa are now worse than it was under apatheid.
b) Apatheid is still part of the system, although its now blacks oppressing other blacks.

Now, South Africa is clearly a basket case. But really, if your assessment is that black corruption oppressing other black people is apatheid then I think you have missed the essential point of apatheid, which was institutionalised white dominance.

And if apatheid is black people oppressing other black people, its even harder to see how it supports your general arguement that the main problem for Aboriginals is that people in Australia are racist.

This is the kind of absurdity that you get to with purely ideological thinking when the force of ones conviction, or in this case the length of ones posts, is taken as validation of ones committement to the cause.

Try logic. It works better and, even better, it was invented by greeks so you don’t have to worry about it being a tool of racist oppression.

It might just be semantics, but it might also be a significant step towards Closing The Gap.

Found the following at http://nmt-engl-112-newmark.blogspot.com/2008/11/alans-group.html :

“In Paul Wachtel’s essay, “Talking About Racism,”
he addresses the problem of our inability to effectively
communicate on the subject of race because of the
over-use of the word “racist,” which has led to
a lack of understanding and indifference towards the
word. Wachtel’s proposal is that we should understand
the difference between racism and indifference…

…Wachtel says that by using the word “racism,” we
shut down all forms of communication regarding the issue
because it no longer has inherent meaning to anyone,
therefore everyone is indifferent to the issue. Instead,
the issue can be broken down into several and more
meaningful subcategories that give rise to the issue.
Issues like prejudice, bias, discrimination, stereotyping. etc
all lead to racism. Unlike “racism,” the issues above
are tangible, because, according to Wachtel, people know
they exist as problems and can actually deal with such problems
individually.”

‘Racist’ is such a loaded word. Accusing people of it when they see themselves in no way as being such is does not help matters. Accusing people - or at least bringing to their attention - of their ‘indifference’ is less inflammatory and harder to deny.

I promise this will be my last word here. I’ll take these thoughts to a more appropriate forum - just wanted to throw it into the mix.

I agree with you re the treatment of asylum seekers. I sent emails, made phone calls, rang talkback etc over the years in absolute horrified anger by the racist and inhumane treatment of asylum seekers - who I must add, didn’t break any laws by arriving her seeking asylum. I have a wonderful woman friend who has taken in several young men on TPV’s. I’ve been priviledged to meet some of them, advocate on their behalf, and always disgusted by their treatment. Too many times, their appalling treatment/attitudes by our compatriots was done - just because they could? Whether they worked at the Detention Centre, or were part of the beaurecracy of DIMIA. Just one quick example? A young man in Villawood Sydney was sent for psychiatric treatment to Brisbane (as though there’s no suitable places in Sydney - perhaps run by someone known to a Howard govt minister at the time?). They flew her to Brisbane to collect him - paid for her return trip and his, plus his week/s long in an expensive private clinic! Amazing! And we paid for that abuse of our monies - not to mention what this young man had suffered!

ALTAKOI - The positon is, that racism and apartheid policies are intermingled. We may not have the legislation anymore(it did exist - read some of the reports of those responsible for aboriginal people?)but that doesn’t mean it’s not still part of the system. I think you’ll find, that the same thing applies in South Africa, only now it’s due to poverty etc, and those making the rules are black not white - in the main. Poverty is still rife; corruption is common place still; the poor are still the majority, and in fact many are worse off now re housing than they were under apartheid. Then the World Bank and the IMF become involved and the poor can’t even use rain water - unless they pay for it! I don’t think a lot has changed. Look at the last President’s attitude to HIV and AIDS!

Jon Hunt
Posted Friday, 3 July 2009 at 3:42 pm | Permalink
Hi, I’m just wondering if anyone can tell me of a country which does not have elements of racism?

If not, why are we getting so upset about what appears to be part of human nature?

You’re not serious are you? There’s a good reason why we should be upset - it’s unjust and revolting that’s why, and we purport to be an enlightened, civilized, democratic and just country, with the highest ideals of blah! blah! I get upset because it’s horrific to me, to treat human beings worse than we’d treat animals over something out of their control - simply the colour of their skin! There’s a wonderful american woman called Jane Elliot - retired school teacher. She is in her 60’s now, but after the assassination of Martin Luther King, she started an exercise with her 3rd grade kids about racism. She divided her class by their eye colour, and on day 1 she put a ‘collar’ around the neck of one group, and the other kids had to treat them differently - they were classed as inferior, they couldn’t drink from the bubblers, they couldn’t associate with them at recess or lunch time, and in essence, were treated like black kids. The next day she reversed the process, and at the end of each day there was a de-briefing - the kids knew that it was an experiment; that it would only last for the day. She took photos of the kids when they were “on top” and “on the bottom” and you could tell the difference. When they were “on the bottom” they were depressed, sullen, miserable and apathetic; when they were “on the top” they were happy, smiling, their paintings were bright etc. What was really chilling though, was how those on top adopted the same ugly behaviour as all racists do - it left an impression on me since.

She’s been doing this same experiment for over 40 yrs with adults now. She does workshops and all day seminars in different places. She’s been to Australia, New Zealand and Canada at least. When her documentary, ‘Blue Eyed, Brown Eyed’ was on SBS, it drew the largest amount of comments ever - they repeated it! I taped it, and watch it from time to time, just to remind me of the horrific injustice that racism is. She starts from the perspective, that if you’re not black, went to school etc, that the first thing to do is accept, that possibly, probably, you’re racist - it’s ingrained in history/geography lessons etc. I’d never thought about it from that perspective before, but I believe it to be true.
She’s received death threats; her kids were spat upon etc; her parents had a small sandwich/general store and they were forced out of business - by her work. However, she continued! You can watch this documentary online. It’s awe inspiring and shows better than I can explain how unjust, ludicrous, unintelligent and just plain destructive racism is. I watch Mick Dodson’s great speech at the Opera House a couple of times a year, for the same reason. I don’t want to be a racist, and am aware of my upbringing etc - diligence is the answer!

I recall going to an Nuclear Free Pacific Forum in the late 70’s or early 80’s. My friend and I were representing our State Politician - we were in the minority - fair skin and blue eyes. During the usual breaks, what we heard was just awful. Young aboriginal girls of 14 sterilized after giving birth - no permission, nothing! We just sat there stunned while horrible racist stories were being told - we did not question that they might not be true - we could tell by the manner in which they were told. Suffice to say, we learnt more about our compatriots and other peoples with black skin around the Pacific. You don’t forget those things - I’m determined, that while I may not stop it on my own, I’m damned sure I won’t remain silent! Whether they’re indigenous to this country or Bangladesh, matters not!

Of course discrimination has to do with aboriginal incarceration - it’s all connected! If Mr Ward was a white man, would the so-called Justice of the Peace been so dismissive of his rights? What is an inexperienced and racist JP doing, deciding on the bail conditions of another - or not? Would a white man have been transported in an inadequate vehicle, with no care or concern for his well being? Why did the WA govt not make sure, that this type of vehicle was not used again after the horrific situation of the asylum seekers several years before, particularly when the inquiry made definite recommendations after that disgrace? They weren’t white either, as the 4 Corners program showed very vividly.

Racism is like a pandemic - it permeates through the community. Governments and individuals demonise people just because of their race. That’s what Hitler did before he went on his campaign of killing Jews; Howard demeaned people from the Middle East to justify invading sovereign countries for oil, or oil and gas. He and a willing media continued the propaganda of those we were killing to demean those who fled from our invasion - Afghanistan & Iraq! Governments have been doing the same thing to the indigenous peoples in order to steal the minerals etc on their lands. Isn’t it ironic, that in the areas of this country that have provided the biggest sums of money for the greedy capitalists(NT, Queensland & WA) people are living in horrific poverty and desolation? How much of the wealth from hidden treasures goes back to the people who were denied so much in order for the mining companies to be given free access to their lands? Very little I suggest!

Pamela - the incidents you describe are nothing short of appalling. I don’t think any decent person would suggest otherwise. So are the horror lives of the several thousand non-Indigenous children being abused (sexually, physically and emotionally), neglected, starved, denied an education, etc, on a daily basis by their own families. I have a very close friend who works for DOCS. Some of the stories she tells me literally turn my stomach. Trust me, there is no special attention paid to these kids just because they are white. The policy is failing them as much as it fails our Indigenous people. Race doesn’t come into it, but using your logic I could cite a few specific instances in detail to argue that white people are being discriminated against. I’m sure you can see how ridiculous that is.

Address the misdirected policy and underlying socioeconomic and cultural factors that lead to this sort of abuse (and subsequent disproportionate incarceration rates). Fighting racist attitudes where they do exist within society and individuals is another matter altogether, and a cause I heartily embrace.

If you seriously think Australia is a “racist state”, I’d encourage you to take a world tour to put that into context.