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	<title>Comments on: Refugees, asylum seekers and Australia: some cold hard facts</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: coreena</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30310</link>
		<dc:creator>coreena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 05:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30310</guid>
		<description>Thank you Andrew for your response.  I did admit to being an ignoramus.  As a checkout the muslims are much more polite than the majority of east asian students and speak better english.  Hasim El Masri is an excellent example but in Tassie he&#039;s not well known.  Australia was more intolerant of chinese immigrants than the afghan men who led camels thru the outback.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Andrew for your response.  I did admit to being an ignoramus.  As a checkout the muslims are much more polite than the majority of east asian students and speak better english.  Hasim El Masri is an excellent example but in Tassie he&#8217;s not well known.  Australia was more intolerant of chinese immigrants than the afghan men who led camels thru the outback.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Hunt</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30051</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Hunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30051</guid>
		<description>It is quite interesting reading this and comparing it to what one reads in the general media, or what seems to be propaganda handed out by Governments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is quite interesting reading this and comparing it to what one reads in the general media, or what seems to be propaganda handed out by Governments.</p>
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		<title>By: Jillian Blackall</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30036</link>
		<dc:creator>Jillian Blackall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30036</guid>
		<description>Yes, I wouldn&#039;t describe support for a more realistic and humane approach to asylum seekers as populist - left or right. There was an implication in what some people were saying that populism is usually on the right and I was responding to that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I wouldn&#8217;t describe support for a more realistic and humane approach to asylum seekers as populist - left or right. There was an implication in what some people were saying that populism is usually on the right and I was responding to that.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30035</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30035</guid>
		<description>I agree Jillian - populism can be left, right or whatever. But whatever ideological label you want to put on a position which argues for a more realistic and humane approach to asylum seekers, it sure as hell isn&#039;t populist.  (NOTE: Some people usually labelled as right-wing, such as PJ O&#039;Rourke also argue for a less restrictive approach to asylum seekers - albeit partly based on different principles to those labelled as &#039;left&#039;)

Coreena - Australia has as much a secular (post-colonisation) history as it does a Christian one (people very rarely used the term &#039;judeo&#039; to also describe Australia&#039;s history until more recent times).  

It is not specifically that Muslims try to come here more than anywhere else - although they have as much right as anyone else does. There have been Muslims in Australia since the early days of European settlement, and mosques around for over a century.

In any case, the vast majority of asylum seekers from the Middle East (who aren&#039;t just Muslim of course) stay in surrounding countries in their region. Of those that try to go further afield to more secure locations, most go to Europe or North America.  

You have rightly pointed out past refugee flows from Vietnam. I expect we will see more from Burma and Bangladesh, coming through Malaysia (which I should repeat has a very poor record of mistreating asylum seekers in their country). There will probably be more Tamils from Sri-Lanka for a while (who are not Muslim).

Refugees have a right to protection, regardless of their religion.  In as much as there are any problematic issues, as there have been or are with all other components of Australian society, it is far better - for everyone - to work together on having them understood and addressed, rather than suggest they should be kept out.  All that will do is increase division, hostility and misunderstanding all round.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree Jillian - populism can be left, right or whatever. But whatever ideological label you want to put on a position which argues for a more realistic and humane approach to asylum seekers, it sure as hell isn&#8217;t populist.  (NOTE: Some people usually labelled as right-wing, such as PJ O&#8217;Rourke also argue for a less restrictive approach to asylum seekers - albeit partly based on different principles to those labelled as &#8216;left&#8217;)</p>
<p>Coreena - Australia has as much a secular (post-colonisation) history as it does a Christian one (people very rarely used the term &#8216;judeo&#8217; to also describe Australia&#8217;s history until more recent times).  </p>
<p>It is not specifically that Muslims try to come here more than anywhere else - although they have as much right as anyone else does. There have been Muslims in Australia since the early days of European settlement, and mosques around for over a century.</p>
<p>In any case, the vast majority of asylum seekers from the Middle East (who aren&#8217;t just Muslim of course) stay in surrounding countries in their region. Of those that try to go further afield to more secure locations, most go to Europe or North America.  </p>
<p>You have rightly pointed out past refugee flows from Vietnam. I expect we will see more from Burma and Bangladesh, coming through Malaysia (which I should repeat has a very poor record of mistreating asylum seekers in their country). There will probably be more Tamils from Sri-Lanka for a while (who are not Muslim).</p>
<p>Refugees have a right to protection, regardless of their religion.  In as much as there are any problematic issues, as there have been or are with all other components of Australian society, it is far better - for everyone - to work together on having them understood and addressed, rather than suggest they should be kept out.  All that will do is increase division, hostility and misunderstanding all round.</p>
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		<title>By: Jillian Blackall</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30031</link>
		<dc:creator>Jillian Blackall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30031</guid>
		<description>Left wing populism definitely does exist. Sydney&#039;s Lord Mayor Clover Moore comes to mind. 

However, I do agree with Andrew that a change in this area is needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Left wing populism definitely does exist. Sydney&#8217;s Lord Mayor Clover Moore comes to mind. </p>
<p>However, I do agree with Andrew that a change in this area is needed.</p>
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		<title>By: coreena</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30025</link>
		<dc:creator>coreena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30025</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like that Australia take refugees but, as an ignoramus, I do wonder why so many Muslims want to come here.  I&#039;d love to see more women &amp; children taken from the sex trade in SE Asia &amp; be able to settle here.  The Vietnamese fitted in well because they are mainly Buddhist so religion was never an issue.  Many Vietnamese were also christian from its years as a French colony.  As an atheist I think all religions have the potential to create divisiveness.  The Muslim school in Sydney is the most recent example.  Sure there are Catholic schools but they&#039;re Christian so fit into Australia&#039;s judeo-christian history. There is a real fear of Muslim men in our society &amp; it&#039;s because of the Taliban &amp; the gang rapists in Sydney.  The white Australia policy &amp; Australia&#039;s geography put it out of reach of post-WW2 refugees but we&#039;re close to Asia &amp; easier for refugees to reach.  I just wish I knew why so many are Muslim men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like that Australia take refugees but, as an ignoramus, I do wonder why so many Muslims want to come here.  I&#8217;d love to see more women &amp; children taken from the sex trade in SE Asia &amp; be able to settle here.  The Vietnamese fitted in well because they are mainly Buddhist so religion was never an issue.  Many Vietnamese were also christian from its years as a French colony.  As an atheist I think all religions have the potential to create divisiveness.  The Muslim school in Sydney is the most recent example.  Sure there are Catholic schools but they&#8217;re Christian so fit into Australia&#8217;s judeo-christian history. There is a real fear of Muslim men in our society &amp; it&#8217;s because of the Taliban &amp; the gang rapists in Sydney.  The white Australia policy &amp; Australia&#8217;s geography put it out of reach of post-WW2 refugees but we&#8217;re close to Asia &amp; easier for refugees to reach.  I just wish I knew why so many are Muslim men.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30024</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30024</guid>
		<description>You should try arming yourself with a dictionary, Pedro - it might stop you using words when you clearly don&#039;t understand what they mean.

Apart from obviously not  knowing what &#039;populist&#039; means, you also incorrectly use the term &#039;illegals&#039; to describe people who are not.

You&#039;re understand of the &#039;myth&#039; is obviously faulty, seeing all I have done is outlined (and linked to) many well-established and documented facts, and given some assessments of what this means. 

You also clearly don&#039;t know what an &#039;open-shore policy&#039; is, seeing I haven&#039;t advocated anything of the sort.

Presumably you are also not aware that I have often had the responsibility of having to make decisions which have influenced the implementation of immigration policy. Some of these decisions are difficult, because this is often an area with no easy answers (although you seem to think you have them).  

Finding solutions in the homelands of displaced people so they are able to return safely is always the best option whenever it is possible. But as I said, unless we can deliver world peace and an end to poverty, then there will be many times when such an option is not possible. If you are saying you have the solutions to bring about world peace and end to poverty (or even just one of them), I&#039;m sure everyone would love to hear them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should try arming yourself with a dictionary, Pedro - it might stop you using words when you clearly don&#8217;t understand what they mean.</p>
<p>Apart from obviously not  knowing what &#8216;populist&#8217; means, you also incorrectly use the term &#8216;illegals&#8217; to describe people who are not.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re understand of the &#8216;myth&#8217; is obviously faulty, seeing all I have done is outlined (and linked to) many well-established and documented facts, and given some assessments of what this means. </p>
<p>You also clearly don&#8217;t know what an &#8216;open-shore policy&#8217; is, seeing I haven&#8217;t advocated anything of the sort.</p>
<p>Presumably you are also not aware that I have often had the responsibility of having to make decisions which have influenced the implementation of immigration policy. Some of these decisions are difficult, because this is often an area with no easy answers (although you seem to think you have them).  </p>
<p>Finding solutions in the homelands of displaced people so they are able to return safely is always the best option whenever it is possible. But as I said, unless we can deliver world peace and an end to poverty, then there will be many times when such an option is not possible. If you are saying you have the solutions to bring about world peace and end to poverty (or even just one of them), I&#8217;m sure everyone would love to hear them.</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30021</link>
		<dc:creator>Pamela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30021</guid>
		<description>Thankyou Andrew- a whiff of common sense instead of POPULIST scare mongering.

Is it not time we grew up in this country and realised that we are all here because of people movements for all sorts of reasons.

 We have to move on from an infantile STOP THE BOATS policy to considering how to respect both the human rights of the asylum seekers  and our own interests. 

 We can do both. 

 Warehousing people in Indonesia is both immoral and storing up trouble for the future.
 
 Give them a break and process their claims fairly and then resettle them here to join the Australian family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankyou Andrew- a whiff of common sense instead of POPULIST scare mongering.</p>
<p>Is it not time we grew up in this country and realised that we are all here because of people movements for all sorts of reasons.</p>
<p> We have to move on from an infantile STOP THE BOATS policy to considering how to respect both the human rights of the asylum seekers  and our own interests. </p>
<p> We can do both. </p>
<p> Warehousing people in Indonesia is both immoral and storing up trouble for the future.</p>
<p> Give them a break and process their claims fairly and then resettle them here to join the Australian family.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank v R</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30010</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank v R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30010</guid>
		<description>Pedro, I sincerly think someone needed to explain to you what populism means..

Who&#039;s the 16 year old in this case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pedro, I sincerly think someone needed to explain to you what populism means..</p>
<p>Who&#8217;s the 16 year old in this case?</p>
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		<title>By: pedro</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30001</link>
		<dc:creator>pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-30001</guid>
		<description>Regteren, you learned to look up a word. Quick, world leaders - take note, you are debating a 16 year old and he is armed with a dictionary!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regteren, you learned to look up a word. Quick, world leaders - take note, you are debating a 16 year old and he is armed with a dictionary!</p>
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		<title>By: regteren</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29997</link>
		<dc:creator>regteren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29997</guid>
		<description>Populism:  type of politics that claim to represent the interest of ordinairy people [source: Oxford Dictonary]

Now, Pedro, tell me which parties and policies really are the populist ones..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Populism:  type of politics that claim to represent the interest of ordinairy people [source: Oxford Dictonary]</p>
<p>Now, Pedro, tell me which parties and policies really are the populist ones..</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Ashdown</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29993</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Ashdown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 05:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29993</guid>
		<description>Interesting article, Andrew. Thanks for the read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article, Andrew. Thanks for the read.</p>
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		<title>By: pedro</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29984</link>
		<dc:creator>pedro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29984</guid>
		<description>What a  defeatist article by Bartlett, showing us all how the Democrats went the way of the dodo.

With more time I would happily debunk those myths which he has written (no doubt for the sole purpose of enhancing his own ego in his own mind). If Bartlett wanted to really do some work, he may have pointed out that the real solution to illegal immigrants did not lie in an open-shore policy, but in finding solutions in the homelands of those illegals.

What a great privelege Bartlett must enjoy to be able to write populist article espousing populists policies, without ever having the responsibility of having to implement it. 

In the mean time he gets all the plaudits and pats on the back from fellow minor party aspirants, those who one day hope to fill that role of minor party vacuum. 

They know they will never have to do any work except be the left wing populist voice of infinite youthful anarchy. Thank god the democrats are now extinct.

The true</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a  defeatist article by Bartlett, showing us all how the Democrats went the way of the dodo.</p>
<p>With more time I would happily debunk those myths which he has written (no doubt for the sole purpose of enhancing his own ego in his own mind). If Bartlett wanted to really do some work, he may have pointed out that the real solution to illegal immigrants did not lie in an open-shore policy, but in finding solutions in the homelands of those illegals.</p>
<p>What a great privelege Bartlett must enjoy to be able to write populist article espousing populists policies, without ever having the responsibility of having to implement it. </p>
<p>In the mean time he gets all the plaudits and pats on the back from fellow minor party aspirants, those who one day hope to fill that role of minor party vacuum. </p>
<p>They know they will never have to do any work except be the left wing populist voice of infinite youthful anarchy. Thank god the democrats are now extinct.</p>
<p>The true</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny Morris</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29983</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/30/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-australia-some-cold-hard-facts/#comment-29983</guid>
		<description>Bravo, Andrew.  An excellent piece.
The media has a significant responsibility to put the recent arrivals in some context, to inform, rather than spread panic. If the government won&#039;t lead on this, the media has to.
Your article is an excellent start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo, Andrew.  An excellent piece.<br />
The media has a significant responsibility to put the recent arrivals in some context, to inform, rather than spread panic. If the government won&#8217;t lead on this, the media has to.<br />
Your article is an excellent start.</p>
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