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	<title>Comments on: Powering Australia into the 19th century</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Michael James</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/#comment-26087</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 01:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=55893#comment-26087</guid>
		<description>Greg Angelo (Wednesday, 6 May 2009, 2:29 pm) and others hold a strange view of the world—which seems like cognitive dissonance.  Apparently they are unable to believe there is any alternative—forever—to using the dirtiest energy source on the planet.  They must have seen with their own eyes over the last decades the massive technological and economic progress in almost all areas.  Computers and Moore’s Law (ever increasing power, decreasing size and cost) is one of the most dramatic, but display technology (flat screens, soon electronic paper) and of course the transformation of the world in a short period by the internet is another big one.  In no more than about one and a half centuries trains have gone from 10 kph lumbering wheeled monsters to sleek tubes that, absolutely stunningly, float a few centimetres above the track with no apparent support and move at 450 kph, again with no obvious motive force (the Shanghai airport MagLev covers the 34 km into town in 7mins 20 seconds). In 25 years we have gone from painfully slow and expensive sequencing of a few hundred bases pairs of DNA to soon being able to sequence the entire human genome (3,000,000,000 bases) for $1000 in a few days (something even 10 years ago I, as a geneticist, was sceptical of).  He doesn’t want to believe what is easily verifiable, that wind power is affordable today—and that it already provides 15 to 20% of power in several countries (and only then—at more than 20% of grid capacity—does its intermittency pose some problems to the grid).

World energy consumption is about 18 TeraWatts which is about 0.02% (one fiftieth of one percent) of the solar energy falling on the earth’s surface (87 PetaWatts, 87,000,000,000,000,000 W).  Geothermal is another energy supply that, in scale, also defies human comprehension.  One single green energy source (the largest in the world) is the Three Gorges Dam hydro scheme will ultimately provide up to 23GW (about two thirds of all of Australia’s electricity consumption).  To be sure, harvesting some of these abundant energy sources will take effort, money and time.  But no, none of this is feasible and according to Greg and his ilk we must be passive, fatalist and simply reconcile ourselves to doing absolutely nothing different to what we happen to be doing right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg Angelo (Wednesday, 6 May 2009, 2:29 pm) and others hold a strange view of the world—which seems like cognitive dissonance.  Apparently they are unable to believe there is any alternative—forever—to using the dirtiest energy source on the planet.  They must have seen with their own eyes over the last decades the massive technological and economic progress in almost all areas.  Computers and Moore’s Law (ever increasing power, decreasing size and cost) is one of the most dramatic, but display technology (flat screens, soon electronic paper) and of course the transformation of the world in a short period by the internet is another big one.  In no more than about one and a half centuries trains have gone from 10 kph lumbering wheeled monsters to sleek tubes that, absolutely stunningly, float a few centimetres above the track with no apparent support and move at 450 kph, again with no obvious motive force (the Shanghai airport MagLev covers the 34 km into town in 7mins 20 seconds). In 25 years we have gone from painfully slow and expensive sequencing of a few hundred bases pairs of DNA to soon being able to sequence the entire human genome (3,000,000,000 bases) for $1000 in a few days (something even 10 years ago I, as a geneticist, was sceptical of).  He doesn’t want to believe what is easily verifiable, that wind power is affordable today—and that it already provides 15 to 20% of power in several countries (and only then—at more than 20% of grid capacity—does its intermittency pose some problems to the grid).</p>
<p>World energy consumption is about 18 TeraWatts which is about 0.02% (one fiftieth of one percent) of the solar energy falling on the earth’s surface (87 PetaWatts, 87,000,000,000,000,000 W).  Geothermal is another energy supply that, in scale, also defies human comprehension.  One single green energy source (the largest in the world) is the Three Gorges Dam hydro scheme will ultimately provide up to 23GW (about two thirds of all of Australia’s electricity consumption).  To be sure, harvesting some of these abundant energy sources will take effort, money and time.  But no, none of this is feasible and according to Greg and his ilk we must be passive, fatalist and simply reconcile ourselves to doing absolutely nothing different to what we happen to be doing right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Wong</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/#comment-26073</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Wong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 11:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=55893#comment-26073</guid>
		<description>Kevin Rudd lacks the courage to make the tough decisions on tackling climate change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin Rudd lacks the courage to make the tough decisions on tackling climate change.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Maddox</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/#comment-26071</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Maddox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 10:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=55893#comment-26071</guid>
		<description>You do the sums.  A 2MW wind turbine has a capital cost on the order of $1m, grid connection costs of the same again if it is part of a large remote wind farm (much less if close to suitable existing infrastructure).  If well-sited (and there&#039;s no reason it wouldn&#039;t be) it can be expected to have a capacity factor over 30%, producing between 5 and 8 million kilowatt-hours per year.

That&#039;s 20-40c capital cost per kilowatt-hour per year.

A new 1GW coal-fired power station built today would have a capital cost on the order of $2-4 billion dollars and will produce a little over 8 billion kilowatt hours per year.

That&#039;s 16-32c capital cost per kilowatt-hour per year.

Thus far, coal seems slightly cheaper.

But with coal-fired power, you have to buy coal.  You have to find something to do with the ash.  Coal mines and coal exhaust both have huge environmental impacts which must be addressed.

Wind turbines also benefit from being mass-produced in relatively small units, and there is next to no lead-time from construction start to power production.  Big power stations take several years to build before they generate any electricity at all.

There&#039;s a healthy debate about whether the cost of &#039;firming&#039; wind generation brings its cost as a major contributor to the electricity supply as high as that of building new thermal baseload power stations.  Estimates vary from a 100% premium (a gross exaggeration) to 1-2% (sheer optimism).  The real figures for the marginal cost of adding wind power to an existing grid depend very much on local factors: how much variation the system already copes with, for instance; whether the peak wind times coincide with high or low demand; and whether hydroelectric or gas-turbine peaking power is readily available or installable.  Only in places such as Denmark and North Germany where intermittent power already produces over 25% of the electricity in a region (ie. regularly exceeds the total local electric demand) are the costs of wind power becoming tricky to meet; but the challenge *is* being met creatively at a cost those countries consider reasonable.  It&#039;s a matter of accounting and cabling (eg. to Norway where hydro-electric backup can easily compensate for excess wind power) more than anything else.

&quot;Base load power in major cities using renewable sources&quot; -- Why qualify with &quot;major cities?&quot;  Most power from any source is generated some distance from cities these days, close to relevant resources like coal or water, and transmitted many kilometres.

&quot;Base load&quot;?  Try Iceland, Norway, New Zealand, Brazil, Thailand, Russia, China, all of which generate huge amounts of power with the long-established renewables of near-surface, hydroelectric geothermal and hydroelectric power from dams.

Intermittent renewables don&#039;t qualify for &quot;base load&quot; under most people&#039;s understanding of the term, but that doesn&#039;t make them significantly more expensive if the system is already designed to cope with a large variation in electric demand, as it is in most temperate countries with huge difference (over 50% in some cases) between daytime and nighttime or between summer and winter.

Hot-rock geothermal power will qualify very well for base load, as will solar thermal power with heat storage except in the dead of winter.

These technologies lack development (and therefore can&#039;t yet be accurately costed), but not merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do the sums.  A 2MW wind turbine has a capital cost on the order of $1m, grid connection costs of the same again if it is part of a large remote wind farm (much less if close to suitable existing infrastructure).  If well-sited (and there&#8217;s no reason it wouldn&#8217;t be) it can be expected to have a capacity factor over 30%, producing between 5 and 8 million kilowatt-hours per year.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s 20-40c capital cost per kilowatt-hour per year.</p>
<p>A new 1GW coal-fired power station built today would have a capital cost on the order of $2-4 billion dollars and will produce a little over 8 billion kilowatt hours per year.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s 16-32c capital cost per kilowatt-hour per year.</p>
<p>Thus far, coal seems slightly cheaper.</p>
<p>But with coal-fired power, you have to buy coal.  You have to find something to do with the ash.  Coal mines and coal exhaust both have huge environmental impacts which must be addressed.</p>
<p>Wind turbines also benefit from being mass-produced in relatively small units, and there is next to no lead-time from construction start to power production.  Big power stations take several years to build before they generate any electricity at all.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a healthy debate about whether the cost of &#8216;firming&#8217; wind generation brings its cost as a major contributor to the electricity supply as high as that of building new thermal baseload power stations.  Estimates vary from a 100% premium (a gross exaggeration) to 1-2% (sheer optimism).  The real figures for the marginal cost of adding wind power to an existing grid depend very much on local factors: how much variation the system already copes with, for instance; whether the peak wind times coincide with high or low demand; and whether hydroelectric or gas-turbine peaking power is readily available or installable.  Only in places such as Denmark and North Germany where intermittent power already produces over 25% of the electricity in a region (ie. regularly exceeds the total local electric demand) are the costs of wind power becoming tricky to meet; but the challenge *is* being met creatively at a cost those countries consider reasonable.  It&#8217;s a matter of accounting and cabling (eg. to Norway where hydro-electric backup can easily compensate for excess wind power) more than anything else.</p>
<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>Base load power in major cities using renewable sources&#8221;&thinsp;&#8212;&thinsp;Why qualify with &#8220;major cities?&#8221;  Most power from any source is generated some distance from cities these days, close to relevant resources like coal or water, and transmitted many kilometres.</p>
<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>Base load&#8221;?  Try Iceland, Norway, New Zealand, Brazil, Thailand, Russia, China, all of which generate huge amounts of power with the long-established renewables of near-surface, hydroelectric geothermal and hydroelectric power from dams.</p>
<p>Intermittent renewables don&#8217;t qualify for &#8220;base load&#8221; under most people&#8217;s understanding of the term, but that doesn&#8217;t make them significantly more expensive if the system is already designed to cope with a large variation in electric demand, as it is in most temperate countries with huge difference (over 50% in some cases) between daytime and nighttime or between summer and winter.</p>
<p>Hot-rock geothermal power will qualify very well for base load, as will solar thermal power with heat storage except in the dead of winter.</p>
<p>These technologies lack development (and therefore can&#8217;t yet be accurately costed), but not merit.</p>
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		<title>By: John james</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/#comment-26052</link>
		<dc:creator>John james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 07:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=55893#comment-26052</guid>
		<description>&#039;Electricity generated by wind turbines.. is no more costly than electricity generated from coal&quot;
Please, give us a break!  Can someone point to any developed or developing nation generating base load power in major cities using renewable sources?  And can we stop referring to carbon, a fundamental compnent of all organic life forms, as a &quot;pollutant&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="quo">&#8216;</span>Electricity generated by wind turbines.. is no more costly than electricity generated from coal&#8221;<br />
Please, give us a break!  Can someone point to any developed or developing nation generating base load power in major cities using renewable sources?  And can we stop referring to carbon, a fundamental compnent of all organic life forms, as a &#8220;pollutant&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Maddox</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/#comment-26043</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Maddox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 05:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=55893#comment-26043</guid>
		<description>&quot;Recent analysis has shown that companies such as BHP Billiton and Bluescope could be saving many millions by implementing their energy efficiency opportunities, but inexplicably refuse to do so.&quot;

It&#039;s not inexplicable.  Big industrial energy consumers are postponing the necessary investments for energy efficiency as long as possible in order to gain the maximum possible windfall from gaming the ETS.  If they improve efficiency before their free permit allowances are legislatively &quot;locked in&quot;, they would miss out on a massive handout.

If they had to purchase all their permits, there would be nothing to lose from investing now in more efficient plant technology.

Greg, it is certainly not cheap to shift away from a fossil-fuel based infrastructure, but in the case of electricity it is not particularly expensive: electricity generated by wind turbines, for instance, is no more costly than electricity generated from coal.  Other fossil fuels are harder to replace than coal, but there are many ways to skin this cat.  The technologies exist and the cost is one we could easily meet as we have met the much greater financial challenge of the recent credit crisis.

Talk of &quot;struggling to feed ourselves&quot; as a consequence of a shift in energy technologies is nonsensical scaremongering.  In the long run this shift will make us far richer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="dquo">&#8220;</span>Recent analysis has shown that companies such as BHP Billiton and Bluescope could be saving many millions by implementing their energy efficiency opportunities, but inexplicably refuse to do so.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not inexplicable.  Big industrial energy consumers are postponing the necessary investments for energy efficiency as long as possible in order to gain the maximum possible windfall from gaming the ETS.  If they improve efficiency before their free permit allowances are legislatively &#8220;locked in&#8221;, they would miss out on a massive handout.</p>
<p>If they had to purchase all their permits, there would be nothing to lose from investing now in more efficient plant technology.</p>
<p>Greg, it is certainly not cheap to shift away from a fossil-fuel based infrastructure, but in the case of electricity it is not particularly expensive: electricity generated by wind turbines, for instance, is no more costly than electricity generated from coal.  Other fossil fuels are harder to replace than coal, but there are many ways to skin this cat.  The technologies exist and the cost is one we could easily meet as we have met the much greater financial challenge of the recent credit crisis.</p>
<p>Talk of &#8220;struggling to feed ourselves&#8221; as a consequence of a shift in energy technologies is nonsensical scaremongering.  In the long run this shift will make us far richer.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Angelo</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/05/06/powering-australia-into-the-19th-century/#comment-26028</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Angelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 04:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=55893#comment-26028</guid>
		<description>In time to come Howard&#039;s reputation as a liar will be eclipsed by Kevin Rudd. Having talked its way into power on its green credentials, the government failed to acquaint the community with the economic cost of a reduced carbon footprint ie a lower standard of living. Virtually every economic activity we do is underpinned by carbon-based fossil fuel and without it we be struggling to feed ourselves from our home vegetable gardens.

The environmental happy clappers who facilitated Rudd&#039;s ascendancy in this matter are not prepared to sacrifice their standards of living on the basis of principle. How on earth can we continue to burn carbon-based fuel and expect third world countries to sell their ETS thisentitlements to us so that we can continue to live the high life.

Now that ultimate reality is dawning, the government is backpedalling as hard as it can to look after its union mates and it&#039;s big corporate donors as a would be the first to suffer as a consequence of taxing high carbon use industries including coal, mining, transport, and ultimately food production and every other commodity dependent on fuel for transport.

Only a few in the audience can see that the emperor is  naked, and the national preoccupation with sport and sopies will probably cause this situation to go unchecked for some time. Unfortunately there is no ground for the opposition to raise the stakes in this issue because anything done to try to redress this issue will only make them even more unpopular than the government would be if it actually implemented its own policies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In time to come Howard&#8217;s reputation as a liar will be eclipsed by Kevin Rudd. Having talked its way into power on its green credentials, the government failed to acquaint the community with the economic cost of a reduced carbon footprint ie a lower standard of living. Virtually every economic activity we do is underpinned by carbon-based fossil fuel and without it we be struggling to feed ourselves from our home vegetable gardens.</p>
<p>The environmental happy clappers who facilitated Rudd&#8217;s ascendancy in this matter are not prepared to sacrifice their standards of living on the basis of principle. How on earth can we continue to burn carbon-based fuel and expect third world countries to sell their ETS thisentitlements to us so that we can continue to live the high life.</p>
<p>Now that ultimate reality is dawning, the government is backpedalling as hard as it can to look after its union mates and it&#8217;s big corporate donors as a would be the first to suffer as a consequence of taxing high carbon use industries including coal, mining, transport, and ultimately food production and every other commodity dependent on fuel for transport.</p>
<p>Only a few in the audience can see that the emperor is  naked, and the national preoccupation with sport and sopies will probably cause this situation to go unchecked for some time. Unfortunately there is no ground for the opposition to raise the stakes in this issue because anything done to try to redress this issue will only make them even more unpopular than the government would be if it actually implemented its own policies.</p>
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