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	<title>Comments on: Why rail projects in NSW cost three times as much as they should</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew P</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18486</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18486</guid>
		<description>So, do the rails which are built in NSW end up costing 300% or do they not get built because of the estimates. If its the former, then the money should really be followed because it has to be soaked up somewhere. It could be in bureaucracy or inefficiency, but that is an awful lot of bureacracy. I wonder if there is rorting of the contracts to supply material to someone with deep pockets, or if the money is being shuffed into the deep holes in the rest of the NSW budget.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, do the rails which are built in NSW end up costing 300% or do they not get built because of the estimates. If its the former, then the money should really be followed because it has to be soaked up somewhere. It could be in bureaucracy or inefficiency, but that is an awful lot of bureacracy. I wonder if there is rorting of the contracts to supply material to someone with deep pockets, or if the money is being shuffed into the deep holes in the rest of the NSW budget.</p>
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		<title>By: Engineer</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18487</link>
		<dc:creator>Engineer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18487</guid>
		<description>I am an experienced project manager, with more than a few private rail projects under my belt in NSW working for the people who pay the money.  Not the various rail corporations which this state has had over the past decade to cover the tracks of the guilty.  Not the contractor.  But responsible for design and construction via processes of public tender for mult-million dollar projects.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have been absolutely flummoxed and gobsmacked at each step along the way by the need to revisit basic design and project proposals seemingly endlessly.  Committees, meetings, submissions, redesigns, revised proposals, resubmissions, knockbacks from unheard-of working groups and other bunches and mobs of rail staff who collectively and individually appear to have no idea what they are employed to achieve.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As the years roll by and the costs mount, these fellows restructure their dunghill and then declare that the previous approvals must be reviewed - restarted - whatever.  Endless delays occur due to the non-availability of key staff in civil design, signals, survey - whatever.  They seem to spend more time at conferences than contemplating actual productive work.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My solution:&lt;br /&gt;1.  Obtain an externally driven functional review of the processes involved in rail design and construction.  Sideline all those who don&#039;t earn a ticket to the party.  There is no need for them in the room, either early or later.  No mates, no stocking fillers.   Maximum staff permitted at any meeting to be strictly limited and this limit to be enforced.  No assistants, no padding.   2. Now that the business makers are gathered together, enforce a &quot;no sitting down&quot; rule during meetings.  Table documents, follow agenda, swap opinions, conclude decisions, depart.  Say 30 minutes per meeting max.  If the contribution is not documented in advance or is otherwise not relevant and productive, rule it out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;3.  For major projects (say &gt;$100M), arrange for an impartial disinterested chair to run meetings. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an experienced project manager, with more than a few private rail projects under my belt in NSW working for the people who pay the money.  Not the various rail corporations which this state has had over the past decade to cover the tracks of the guilty.  Not the contractor.  But responsible for design and construction via processes of public tender for mult-million dollar projects.</p>
<p>I have been absolutely flummoxed and gobsmacked at each step along the way by the need to revisit basic design and project proposals seemingly endlessly.  Committees, meetings, submissions, redesigns, revised proposals, resubmissions, knockbacks from unheard-of working groups and other bunches and mobs of rail staff who collectively and individually appear to have no idea what they are employed to achieve.</p>
<p>As the years roll by and the costs mount, these fellows restructure their dunghill and then declare that the previous approvals must be reviewed - restarted - whatever.  Endless delays occur due to the non-availability of key staff in civil design, signals, survey - whatever.  They seem to spend more time at conferences than contemplating actual productive work.</p>
<p>My solution:<br />1.  Obtain an externally driven functional review of the processes involved in rail design and construction.  Sideline all those who don&#8217;t earn a ticket to the party.  There is no need for them in the room, either early or later.  No mates, no stocking fillers.   Maximum staff permitted at any meeting to be strictly limited and this limit to be enforced.  No assistants, no padding.   2. Now that the business makers are gathered together, enforce a &#8220;no sitting down&#8221; rule during meetings.  Table documents, follow agenda, swap opinions, conclude decisions, depart.  Say 30 minutes per meeting max.  If the contribution is not documented in advance or is otherwise not relevant and productive, rule it out.</p>
<p>3.  For major projects (say >$100M), arrange for an impartial disinterested chair to run meetings.</p>
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		<title>By: John M</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18488</link>
		<dc:creator>John M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18488</guid>
		<description>Gavin, to quote from ICAC &quot;The report says that since 1992 the Commission has conducted six previous major investigations into RailCorp, all of which found corruption. &quot;Much of the corruption found previously was similar in nature to that exposed in this investigation,&quot; it observes.&quot; (http://www.icac.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?objectID=37C27E24-09A3-C629-67F51F80ED475C9A&amp;flushcache=1). NIMBYs seem to have undue influence, e.g. Epping Chatswood rail link forced to go under the Lane Cove River, increasing costs and costing 2 stations, Delhi Road and Ku Ring Gai TAFE, building of work site at Westmead for Parramatta -Epping rail link. Meanwhile, Parramatta station has been redeveloped, minus underground platforms. Another example. The Richmond line was meant to be duplicated from Quakers Hill to Riverstone, with an additional station at Nirimba for a new land release and the University, Tafe etc. Now? the Nirimba station will be the new Schofields, thats as far as the duplication goes, and the old Schofields station to be demolished, pity about the shops etx. Meanwhile, at Riverstone, a new industrial estate will be served by a single track. I shakes me head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin, to quote from ICAC &#8220;The report says that since 1992 the Commission has conducted six previous major investigations into RailCorp, all of which found corruption. &#8220;Much of the corruption found previously was similar in nature to that exposed in this investigation,&#8221; it observes.&#8221; (<a href="http://www.icac.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?objectID=37C27E24-09A3-C629-67F51F80ED475C9A&#038;flushcache=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.icac.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?objectID=37C27E24-09A3-C629-67F51F80ED475C9A&#038;flushcache=1</a>). NIMBYs seem to have undue influence, e.g. Epping Chatswood rail link forced to go under the Lane Cove River, increasing costs and costing 2 stations, Delhi Road and Ku Ring Gai TAFE, building of work site at Westmead for Parramatta -Epping rail link. Meanwhile, Parramatta station has been redeveloped, minus underground platforms. Another example. The Richmond line was meant to be duplicated from Quakers Hill to Riverstone, with an additional station at Nirimba for a new land release and the University, Tafe etc. Now? the Nirimba station will be the new Schofields, thats as far as the duplication goes, and the old Schofields station to be demolished, pity about the shops etx. Meanwhile, at Riverstone, a new industrial estate will be served by a single track. I shakes me head.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward James </title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18489</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward James </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18489</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we should insist on access to the contracts seeing as how it has been cancelled and perhaps we can answer the questionWhy would it cost almost six times more per kilometre why wait till we have been &quot;bilked&quot; for the work lets have a look at the quanties and a breakdown of the actual cost per click. Sounds like fun and could be rewarding too. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we should insist on access to the contracts seeing as how it has been cancelled and perhaps we can answer the questionWhy would it cost almost six times more per kilometre why wait till we have been &#8220;bilked&#8221; for the work lets have a look at the quanties and a breakdown of the actual cost per click. Sounds like fun and could be rewarding too.</p>
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		<title>By: stunned</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18490</link>
		<dc:creator>stunned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18490</guid>
		<description>Why don&#039;t we get the WA rail builders to tender for the NSW rail projects and see if they can quote to build  them at substantially reduced costs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why don&#8217;t we get the WA rail builders to tender for the NSW rail projects and see if they can quote to build  them at substantially reduced costs?</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Gatenby</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18491</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Gatenby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18491</guid>
		<description>In re &quot;Engineer&quot;&#039;s interesting comment: from what I understand of the process used in WA for the Mandurah line, their Public Transport Authority put together a team that spent two years doing a very detailed masterplan before going to tender. This no doubt minimised the possibility of later revisions, project politics and muddle-through. Of course, everybody knew the government&#039;s estimate for the whole project, but the job was carefully broken down into packages for competitive tendering and while the tenderers could have made educated guesses at how much might have been allocated for each aspect of the job, they were guesses at best and, short of a leak, they wouldn&#039;t know how the packages would be structured until the tenders were advertised.  For example, the 9 stations outside the city centre were broken down into three packages of three.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The government was keen to &quot;spread the work around&quot;.  I was told that the tendering process was largely the work of an engineer co-opted from their roads department. This last fact is interesting because these days roads departments have a huge body of continuous experience in managing projects, whereas rail authorities or a mob like TIDC have only discontinuous experience, simply because such a small amount of rail gets built and so many projects are cancelled. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are many mysteries in NSW and the taxpayers deserve an explanation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In re &#8220;Engineer&#8220;&#8216;s interesting comment: from what I understand of the process used in WA for the Mandurah line, their Public Transport Authority put together a team that spent two years doing a very detailed masterplan before going to tender. This no doubt minimised the possibility of later revisions, project politics and muddle-through. Of course, everybody knew the government&#8217;s estimate for the whole project, but the job was carefully broken down into packages for competitive tendering and while the tenderers could have made educated guesses at how much might have been allocated for each aspect of the job, they were guesses at best and, short of a leak, they wouldn&#8217;t know how the packages would be structured until the tenders were advertised.  For example, the 9 stations outside the city centre were broken down into three packages of three.</p>
<p>The government was keen to &#8220;spread the work around&#8221;.  I was told that the tendering process was largely the work of an engineer co-opted from their roads department. This last fact is interesting because these days roads departments have a huge body of continuous experience in managing projects, whereas rail authorities or a mob like TIDC have only discontinuous experience, simply because such a small amount of rail gets built and so many projects are cancelled. </p>
<p>There are many mysteries in NSW and the taxpayers deserve an explanation.</p>
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		<title>By: gianni</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/26/why-rail-projects-in-nsw-cost-three-times-as-much-as-they-should/#comment-18492</link>
		<dc:creator>gianni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18492</guid>
		<description>What a mess. Thanks are due to Gavin for turning over the rotten log that is the NSW government. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&#039;s bad enough that until recently the roads lobby had access to unlimited private investment funds for its PPP roads projects, decoupling the NSW road building agency (the Roads and Traffic Authority) from the constraints of the state balance sheet, resulting in lots of motorways that have given a competitive advantage to the road freight industry but which have left vast areas of Greater Sydney with no ready access to the rail system. It&#039;s no wonder families need four or more cars to get around (Mum, Dad, adult children each need a car).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But to have the supposed proponent for rail-based public transport actively  white-anting its own proposals by unfavourably skewing their benefit cost analyses beggars belief. The Sydney train system is over capacity and struggling to cope following years of underinvestment. NSW Treasury has been a bitter critic of rail for years, epitomised by former Treasurer Michael Costa&#039;s comment that &quot;every time someone steps on a train it costs me money.&quot; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Did the NSW Treasury know what TDIC was doing? Did they encourage it? Did they prioritise making their balance sheet look better over the necessary capital investment needed to maintain and improve the rail system for the people of Sydney? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is something seriously broken in the NSW government to allow (encourge?) this state of affairs to develop and fester. Cui bono? What&#039;s needed is a Royal Commission to expose who was responsible for this fiasco, what was their motivation, and why successive Ministers for Transport have done nothing about it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Royal Commission could also examine why NSW has the deepest bureaucratic silos, the most disaggregated, dysfunctional and corrupt planning culture in Australia. This may well reflect the ALP&#039;s deal-based culture, but it&#039;s a recipe for poor community outcomes and a third-rate transport system. We all lose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a mess. Thanks are due to Gavin for turning over the rotten log that is the NSW government. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s bad enough that until recently the roads lobby had access to unlimited private investment funds for its PPP roads projects, decoupling the NSW road building agency (the Roads and Traffic Authority) from the constraints of the state balance sheet, resulting in lots of motorways that have given a competitive advantage to the road freight industry but which have left vast areas of Greater Sydney with no ready access to the rail system. It&#8217;s no wonder families need four or more cars to get around (Mum, Dad, adult children each need a car).</p>
<p>But to have the supposed proponent for rail-based public transport actively  white-anting its own proposals by unfavourably skewing their benefit cost analyses beggars belief. The Sydney train system is over capacity and struggling to cope following years of underinvestment. NSW Treasury has been a bitter critic of rail for years, epitomised by former Treasurer Michael Costa&#8217;s comment that &#8220;every time someone steps on a train it costs me money.&#8221; </p>
<p>Did the NSW Treasury know what TDIC was doing? Did they encourage it? Did they prioritise making their balance sheet look better over the necessary capital investment needed to maintain and improve the rail system for the people of Sydney? </p>
<p>There is something seriously broken in the NSW government to allow (encourge?) this state of affairs to develop and fester. Cui bono? What&#8217;s needed is a Royal Commission to expose who was responsible for this fiasco, what was their motivation, and why successive Ministers for Transport have done nothing about it.</p>
<p>The Royal Commission could also examine why NSW has the deepest bureaucratic silos, the most disaggregated, dysfunctional and corrupt planning culture in Australia. This may well reflect the ALP&#8217;s deal-based culture, but it&#8217;s a recipe for poor community outcomes and a third-rate transport system. We all lose.</p>
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