Comments on: IDF testimonials tell frightening version of Gaza war http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 06:21:51 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Frank Birchall http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15160 Frank Birchall Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15160 These allegations are appalling and, if true, a terrible indictment of the IDF and Israeli government. The allegations should be independently investigated by the UN and, if confirmed, considered by the Security Council for referral to the ICC as war crimes. Of course any such crimes committed by Hamas should be similarly investigated. Supporters of Israel should not use "lack of balance" or relativistic comparisons to excuse the need to investigate the allegations and act upon them. If the allegations are false, they should welcome an investigation, not deflect the criticism. Irrespective of so-called "balance", these horrific allegations, if true, cannot be excused or the perpetrators given impunity. These allegations are appalling and, if true, a terrible indictment of the IDF and Israeli government. The allegations should be independently investigated by the UN and, if confirmed, considered by the Security Council for referral to the ICC as war crimes. Of course any such crimes committed by Hamas should be similarly investigated. Supporters of Israel should not use “lack of balance” or relativistic comparisons to excuse the need to investigate the allegations and act upon them. If the allegations are false, they should welcome an investigation, not deflect the criticism. Irrespective of so-called “balance”, these horrific allegations, if true, cannot be excused or the perpetrators given impunity.

]]> By: MichaelT http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15161 MichaelT Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15161 I think Jeff's article is eye-opening, and needs to be seen in the context in which he is writing. We are still struggling to overturn the dominant black-and-white mindset of the neocons in which Israel is the bastion of Western civilisation against the Palestinians, who are seen as a bunch of terrorists. Some progress has been made, but at the government level at least we are still a long way from seeing the grievances of both sides on an equitable basis, which is the only perspective from which it is possible to conceive a settlement of these disputes. The Obama administration, whatever its mis-steps in other areas, at least understands that blindly taking sides will only lead to prolonging the agony of the Middle East. I think Jeff’s article is eye-opening, and needs to be seen in the context in which he is writing. We are still struggling to overturn the dominant black-and-white mindset of the neocons in which Israel is the bastion of Western civilisation against the Palestinians, who are seen as a bunch of terrorists. Some progress has been made, but at the government level at least we are still a long way from seeing the grievances of both sides on an equitable basis, which is the only perspective from which it is possible to conceive a settlement of these disputes. The Obama administration, whatever its mis-steps in other areas, at least understands that blindly taking sides will only lead to prolonging the agony of the Middle East.

]]> By: Margaret http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15162 Margaret Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15162 Before I'm accused of anti semitism, let me say I have several Jewish/Israeli friends many of whom share my views. It is well time that Jews stopped hiding behind the undeniably horrific holocaust to justify their attitudes to Palestinians. You must acknowledge that you stole their ancient homeland from them in the most violent fashion and the occupation continues to be a running sore in the middle east with no solution in sight. I suggest that everyone, Jews and gentiles, read the excellent and scholarly book Beyond Chutzpah (Finkelstein) that sets out the level to which Israel's propaganda machine justifies the continuing atrocities committed against innocent people who just want their land back. I do not condone the violence on either side but it must be acknowledged that it is understandable when you have been removed from your ancient land and I would have thought that Jews understood this better than any. This is a clear case of the victim becoming the perpetrator. And it is time that Australia acknowledged the serious plight of the <br />Palestinians. If Israel can tolerate public dissent about the issue, Australia too should be able to do the same without the wrath of the Israel lobby coming down upon it. And yes, it is all about the occupation Randy and you should do some serious reading but not of the propaganda type that is so prevalent. Before I’m accused of anti semitism, let me say I have several Jewish/Israeli friends many of whom share my views. It is well time that Jews stopped hiding behind the undeniably horrific holocaust to justify their attitudes to Palestinians. You must acknowledge that you stole their ancient homeland from them in the most violent fashion and the occupation continues to be a running sore in the middle east with no solution in sight. I suggest that everyone, Jews and gentiles, read the excellent and scholarly book Beyond Chutzpah (Finkelstein) that sets out the level to which Israel’s propaganda machine justifies the continuing atrocities committed against innocent people who just want their land back. I do not condone the violence on either side but it must be acknowledged that it is understandable when you have been removed from your ancient land and I would have thought that Jews understood this better than any. This is a clear case of the victim becoming the perpetrator. And it is time that Australia acknowledged the serious plight of the
Palestinians. If Israel can tolerate public dissent about the issue, Australia too should be able to do the same without the wrath of the Israel lobby coming down upon it. And yes, it is all about the occupation Randy and you should do some serious reading but not of the propaganda type that is so prevalent.

]]> By: Kevin Charles Herbert#2 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15163 Kevin Charles Herbert#2 Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15163 <br />Cal: there you go again... justifying your selective use of facts by posting innocous pap based on Zionist sophistry.<br /><br />As Marilyn said: It's the occupation, you clown. You know the one...where millions have been displaced, then subjected to extra judicial killing, apartheid, and having their remaining leaders jailed, then having their water supply stolen, then their land, and so on and so on........you'r either dimwitted or just another Zionist bigot. Cal: there you go again… justifying your selective use of facts by posting innocous pap based on Zionist sophistry.

As Marilyn said: It’s the occupation, you clown. You know the one…where millions have been displaced, then subjected to extra judicial killing, apartheid, and having their remaining leaders jailed, then having their water supply stolen, then their land, and so on and so on……..you’r either dimwitted or just another Zionist bigot.

]]> By: Marilyn http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15164 Marilyn Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15164 How typical Randy. When the truth is told by the criminals you deflect it from them onto someone else.<br /><br />As for the militants in Gaza - Randy my boy I suggest you do some reading by some very fine jewish and other Israeli historians who expose nicely the crap you peddle.<br /><br />http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/60806<br /><br />As usual with us, the pretext was security. After all, the Arabs who are naturalized in Israel could be “terrorists”. True, no statistics have ever been published about such cases – if there are any – but since when did a “security” assertion need evidence to prove it? <br />Behind the security argument there lurks, of course, a demographic demon. The Arabs now constitute about 20% of Israel’s citizens. If the country were to be swamped by a flood of Arab brides and bridegrooms, this percentage might rise to – God forbid! – 22%. How would the “Jewish State” look then? <br />The matter came before the Supreme Court, The petitioners, Jews and Arabs, argued that this measure contradicts our Basic Laws (our substitute for a nonexistent constitution) which guarantee the equality of all citizens. The answer of the Ministry of Justice lawyers let the cat out of the bag. It asserts, for the first time, in unequivocal language, that: <br />“The State of Israel is at war with the Palestinian people, people against people, collective against collective.” <br /><br />Try "1967" by Tom Regev. Try "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe. Or how about "Beyond Chutzpah and the holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein. You could then indulge in the delights of "Lords of the Land" by Akiva Eldar.<br /><br />I got two odd reponses to this article yesterday.<br /><br />Paul Reti asked me "is this why your husband left you"? Huh? And Barney Zwartz of the AGE didn't want the truth at any cost.<br /><br />Randy, it's the occupation you clown.<br /><br /> How typical Randy. When the truth is told by the criminals you deflect it from them onto someone else.

As for the militants in Gaza - Randy my boy I suggest you do some reading by some very fine jewish and other Israeli historians who expose nicely the crap you peddle.

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/60806

As usual with us, the pretext was security. After all, the Arabs who are naturalized in Israel could be “terrorists”. True, no statistics have ever been published about such cases – if there are any – but since when did a “security” assertion need evidence to prove it?
Behind the security argument there lurks, of course, a demographic demon. The Arabs now constitute about 20% of Israel’s citizens. If the country were to be swamped by a flood of Arab brides and bridegrooms, this percentage might rise to – God forbid! – 22%. How would the “Jewish State” look then?
The matter came before the Supreme Court, The petitioners, Jews and Arabs, argued that this measure contradicts our Basic Laws (our substitute for a nonexistent constitution) which guarantee the equality of all citizens. The answer of the Ministry of Justice lawyers let the cat out of the bag. It asserts, for the first time, in unequivocal language, that:
“The State of Israel is at war with the Palestinian people, people against people, collective against collective.”

Try “1967” by Tom Regev. Try “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” by Ilan Pappe. Or how about “Beyond Chutzpah and the holocaust Industry” by Norman Finkelstein. You could then indulge in the delights of “Lords of the Land” by Akiva Eldar.

I got two odd reponses to this article yesterday.

Paul Reti asked me “is this why your husband left you”? Huh? And Barney Zwartz of the AGE didn’t want the truth at any cost.

Randy, it’s the occupation you clown.

]]> By: Kevin Charles Herbert http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15165 Kevin Charles Herbert Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15165 <br /><br />Randy: it's you & your Zionist ilk sicken me. Just another Dover Heights (aka Balaclava) armchair militarist (CUT) As Marilyn says: It's the occupation, you clown<br /><br />And as for Rudd, Smith and Turnbull...they'll be getting their gravel rash awards in the not too distant future. Randy: it’s you & your Zionist ilk sicken me. Just another Dover Heights (aka Balaclava) armchair militarist (CUT) As Marilyn says: It’s the occupation, you clown

And as for Rudd, Smith and Turnbull…they’ll be getting their gravel rash awards in the not too distant future.

]]> By: Randy http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15166 Randy Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15166 This article sickens me but not in the way the author intends. It is off the Richter scale in its degree of balance. Not a single word of the disgusting things the Gazans say and do daily re: Israelis and has any Palestinian in the past 70 years ever complained about what their 'militants' are doing (and not had, at best, their kneecaps shot)! For example read the Hamas Constitution and what it says about Jews (Not Israelis!)<br />By all means complain about Israel but ONLY if you are balanced. This article sickens me but not in the way the author intends. It is off the Richter scale in its degree of balance. Not a single word of the disgusting things the Gazans say and do daily re: Israelis and has any Palestinian in the past 70 years ever complained about what their ‘militants’ are doing (and not had, at best, their kneecaps shot)! For example read the Hamas Constitution and what it says about Jews (Not Israelis!)
By all means complain about Israel but ONLY if you are balanced.

]]> By: Shane http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15167 Shane Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15167 It's the level of culpability we are mostly discussing here. If we can blame the Pope for 'killing millions of people in Africa' just by addressing modesty, why should Israeli , or any government for that matter, be immune from 'uproar and disgust' of the community at large. (People are just too happy to criticise Russia, England, Malaysia or North Korea, Vatican, etc. ) <br />It is not anysemitic propaganda - there are not only Semitic people living in Israel, and it is not a stupid attack by Israeli haters, this time round. <br />It is the testimony of Israeli servicemen. In any democratic country (America, England, Australia and plenty others), there would be a royal commission, an independent Senate enquiry, etc. and the heads would roll. Not in Israel, though. They have just attempted to elect even 'tougher guys'. Only last week the same Haaretz published an article that Israeli chaplains/rabbis were 'couching' the soldiers about the Jewish religious war agaist the Arabs. The terrible t-shirts worn by the IDF soldiers just are just being circulated around the world. Hasbara?<br />So please, Wagnor and co, go and criticise Israeli media and leave Crickey alone. This article is nothing else but faithful copy from the comments in Israeli neswpapaers. Australians have their democratic right to know what other people think and write in other countries, particularly if the articles and comments in Haaretz are written in English ... for everybody to read. In order to be able to defend democratic Israel Mr. Wagner should exhibit some knowledge of democratic rights and values himself and not to confuse them with religious dogmas. It’s the level of culpability we are mostly discussing here. If we can blame the Pope for ‘killing millions of people in Africa’ just by addressing modesty, why should Israeli , or any government for that matter, be immune from ‘uproar and disgust’ of the community at large. (People are just too happy to criticise Russia, England, Malaysia or North Korea, Vatican, etc. )
It is not anysemitic propaganda - there are not only Semitic people living in Israel, and it is not a stupid attack by Israeli haters, this time round.
It is the testimony of Israeli servicemen. In any democratic country (America, England, Australia and plenty others), there would be a royal commission, an independent Senate enquiry, etc. and the heads would roll. Not in Israel, though. They have just attempted to elect even ‘tougher guys’. Only last week the same Haaretz published an article that Israeli chaplains/rabbis were ‘couching’ the soldiers about the Jewish religious war agaist the Arabs. The terrible t-shirts worn by the IDF soldiers just are just being circulated around the world. Hasbara?
So please, Wagnor and co, go and criticise Israeli media and leave Crickey alone. This article is nothing else but faithful copy from the comments in Israeli neswpapaers. Australians have their democratic right to know what other people think and write in other countries, particularly if the articles and comments in Haaretz are written in English … for everybody to read. In order to be able to defend democratic Israel Mr. Wagner should exhibit some knowledge of democratic rights and values himself and not to confuse them with religious dogmas.

]]> By: Glenn Brandham http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15168 Glenn Brandham Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15168 Well said Shane. Well said Marilyn. Australian involvement in the creation of Isreal is carved in stone all across the region. Lots of little white crosses in neat little groups all through Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and many places in north Africa, too. It was our troops, along with the rest of the U.N., who patrolled the borders which were, in the late 1940's, merely newly drawn lines on maps. With history such as this, we all have the right to express our concern at what ever is happening over there. Marilyn is correct to use pointed language, the problem seems to be the nature of the IDF...the way it uses sheer military force when dealing with non-military people. This use of terror tactics hurts the IDF troops in fundamental ways as well. To peaceful people all around the world, the picture is all too clear. Let us never forget that Isreal is a nation which has created it's own nuclear capability, yes...they don't even try to deny it, and has done so without giving a crap about world opinion. Saddam was a blight on the region, but he didn't have illegal WMD, Isreal is just as much a blight on the region and they have illegal WMD. Go figure... Well said Shane. Well said Marilyn. Australian involvement in the creation of Isreal is carved in stone all across the region. Lots of little white crosses in neat little groups all through Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and many places in north Africa, too. It was our troops, along with the rest of the U.N., who patrolled the borders which were, in the late 1940’s, merely newly drawn lines on maps. With history such as this, we all have the right to express our concern at what ever is happening over there. Marilyn is correct to use pointed language, the problem seems to be the nature of the IDF…the way it uses sheer military force when dealing with non-military people. This use of terror tactics hurts the IDF troops in fundamental ways as well. To peaceful people all around the world, the picture is all too clear. Let us never forget that Isreal is a nation which has created it’s own nuclear capability, yes…they don’t even try to deny it, and has done so without giving a crap about world opinion. Saddam was a blight on the region, but he didn’t have illegal WMD, Isreal is just as much a blight on the region and they have illegal WMD. Go figure…

]]> By: Greg Angelo http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15169 Greg Angelo Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15169 I have no sympathy for Hamas or Fatah or Mr Ahmadinejab. However we are supposed to be the good guys with high moral principles.<br /><br />I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the major difference between the Wehrmacht and elements of the the IDF is the colours and symbols on their flags.<br /><br />There is no excuse for racist violence and murder, even less so for the Jews. The Zionist amongst them however are no strangers to terrorism and murder, a code of practice they have undertaken for over 60 years.<br /><br />I reserve the right to condemn racist violence wherever I see it, and I'm sick and tired of the Zionists claiming the high moral ground while they murder innocent civilians. <br /><br />Nazi Germany was defeated over 60 years ago and the vile excesses of this defeated regime is no excuse for the continued oppression of Palestinians by by Zionists. <br /><br />To condemn the Zionist terror is not being anti-Semitic. Both the Palestinians Israelis are both Semitic. Terrorism is also practised by the Palestinians on themselves depending on their political aspirations, and the whole situation is an appalling mess,orchestrated by the puppet masters in Washington and Tehran, Damascus and Tel Aviv to their own domestic political consumption.<br /><br /><br /><br /> I have no sympathy for Hamas or Fatah or Mr Ahmadinejab. However we are supposed to be the good guys with high moral principles.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the major difference between the Wehrmacht and elements of the the IDF is the colours and symbols on their flags.

There is no excuse for racist violence and murder, even less so for the Jews. The Zionist amongst them however are no strangers to terrorism and murder, a code of practice they have undertaken for over 60 years.

I reserve the right to condemn racist violence wherever I see it, and I’m sick and tired of the Zionists claiming the high moral ground while they murder innocent civilians.

Nazi Germany was defeated over 60 years ago and the vile excesses of this defeated regime is no excuse for the continued oppression of Palestinians by by Zionists.

To condemn the Zionist terror is not being anti-Semitic. Both the Palestinians Israelis are both Semitic. Terrorism is also practised by the Palestinians on themselves depending on their political aspirations, and the whole situation is an appalling mess,orchestrated by the puppet masters in Washington and Tehran, Damascus and Tel Aviv to their own domestic political consumption.

]]> By: Marilyn http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15170 Marilyn Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15170 Last time I looked Uri Avnery was an 85 year old Israeli who left the Irgun terrorist group as a 19 year old, long before the holocaust.<br /><br />If you can't let jews criticise themselves without abusing the messenger what a pathetic bunch of toe rags you are.<br /><br />Israel was built on terorism and ethnic cleansing. That is now so broadly known thanks to Israeli's like Tanya Reinhart, Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe that it is a sick joke to see Australian's whining as if the Leon Uris fantasy yarn was true. Last time I looked Uri Avnery was an 85 year old Israeli who left the Irgun terrorist group as a 19 year old, long before the holocaust.

If you can’t let jews criticise themselves without abusing the messenger what a pathetic bunch of toe rags you are.

Israel was built on terorism and ethnic cleansing. That is now so broadly known thanks to Israeli’s like Tanya Reinhart, Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe that it is a sick joke to see Australian’s whining as if the Leon Uris fantasy yarn was true.

]]> By: Cal http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15171 Cal Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15171 Marilyn - have you been to Gaza or the West Bank? It's an eye opener. And you certainly learn a lot more than sitting at home in front of Google. <br /><br />And anti- Bush boy, are you functionally literate? The reason we know about the 2000 US election fraud is … wait for it … it was reported in the US of A! Hang on a sec, didn’t that happen with Watergate? And Lt Caley? Iraq too? Geeze Louise, this country keeps exposing its own failings and corruption. My goodness me, isn’t that what a democracy is? Marilyn - have you been to Gaza or the West Bank? It’s an eye opener. And you certainly learn a lot more than sitting at home in front of Google.

And anti- Bush boy, are you functionally literate? The reason we know about the 2000 US election fraud is … wait for it … it was reported in the US of A! Hang on a sec, didn’t that happen with Watergate? And Lt Caley? Iraq too? Geeze Louise, this country keeps exposing its own failings and corruption. My goodness me, isn’t that what a democracy is?

]]> By: Marilyn http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15172 Marilyn Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15172 Gotta luv' the zionists. Even when the messenger is the criminal who committed the act they shoot the messenger for telling the truth.<br /><br />Amazing.<br /><br />As for the US and Australia carrying out assassinations - we did it in Vietnam like good little soldiers and yet those who supported that invasion and occupation blamed the anti-war movement for the deaths of our soldiers.<br /><br />I think the reality was shown last week after the Dateline story where Afghans gave evidence of an assassination attempt by Australia that ended up killing 5 kids and Fitzgibbon said it was a case of "the Taliban use their children as human shields".<br /><br />We ignorant whites have been believing the bullshit that muslims don't love their children ever since that egregious old bitch Golda said it and it is time to stop.<br /><br />Muslims adore their kids. Gotta luv’ the zionists. Even when the messenger is the criminal who committed the act they shoot the messenger for telling the truth.

Amazing.

As for the US and Australia carrying out assassinations - we did it in Vietnam like good little soldiers and yet those who supported that invasion and occupation blamed the anti-war movement for the deaths of our soldiers.

I think the reality was shown last week after the Dateline story where Afghans gave evidence of an assassination attempt by Australia that ended up killing 5 kids and Fitzgibbon said it was a case of “the Taliban use their children as human shields”.

We ignorant whites have been believing the bullshit that muslims don’t love their children ever since that egregious old bitch Golda said it and it is time to stop.

Muslims adore their kids.

]]> By: Susie Gale http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15173 Susie Gale Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15173 "We ignorant whites have been believing the bullshit that muslims don't love their children ever since that egregious old bitch Golda said it and it is time to stop.<br /><br />Muslims adore their kids."<br /><br />Marilyn, that comment made me giggle for a bit.<br /><br />I cant stand Golda Meir!!!<br /><br />Completely agree with the article, though. Those Tshirts are appalling and show a complete lack of morals on the part of the people who wear them and those who are defending them. “We ignorant whites have been believing the bullshit that muslims don’t love their children ever since that egregious old bitch Golda said it and it is time to stop.

Muslims adore their kids.”

Marilyn, that comment made me giggle for a bit.

I cant stand Golda Meir!!!

Completely agree with the article, though. Those Tshirts are appalling and show a complete lack of morals on the part of the people who wear them and those who are defending them.

]]> By: Shane http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15174 Shane Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15174 Hi Cal,<br /> Marylin has not been to Gaza. I haven't been to Gaza, but IDF servicemen have been. Have you??? Or you do not trust eye-witnesses. <br />I'd love to go there and see Hamas flying bombers, throwing phosphorus bombs, driving tanks, and firing huge artillery rockets from their warships. I would like to see heavily armed Hamas soldiers throwing bombs into people's houses, bombing university in Tel Aviv, or hospitals.<br />Only then, I would make an honest assessment of the conflict. At the moment it looks, not only from my armchair or your armchair, for that matter, that the fourth army in the world have invaded form land and air and the sea, a little tiny spot that cannot afford any army at all.<br />There is no excuse to accuse little babies of being shields. What about olive trees? How many Hamas civilians were hiding behind them? What about a chicken farm? Was it full of Hamas?<br />And getting the info from the 'horse's mouth' : wasn't that Israeli ambassador to Australia, who said at the public meeting that 'Gaza was just a rehearsal before the attack on Iran? Hi Cal,
Marylin has not been to Gaza. I haven’t been to Gaza, but IDF servicemen have been. Have you??? Or you do not trust eye-witnesses.
I’d love to go there and see Hamas flying bombers, throwing phosphorus bombs, driving tanks, and firing huge artillery rockets from their warships. I would like to see heavily armed Hamas soldiers throwing bombs into people’s houses, bombing university in Tel Aviv, or hospitals.
Only then, I would make an honest assessment of the conflict. At the moment it looks, not only from my armchair or your armchair, for that matter, that the fourth army in the world have invaded form land and air and the sea, a little tiny spot that cannot afford any army at all.
There is no excuse to accuse little babies of being shields. What about olive trees? How many Hamas civilians were hiding behind them? What about a chicken farm? Was it full of Hamas?
And getting the info from the ‘horse’s mouth’ : wasn’t that Israeli ambassador to Australia, who said at the public meeting that ‘Gaza was just a rehearsal before the attack on Iran?

]]> By: Cal http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15175 Cal Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15175 Jeff - the issue to note is that while these allegations are just terrible, both the US and Israel are open democracies where these types of claims can be made and people brought before courts. Say what you like about the Gaza conflict, but one thing I can guarantee you, the killers of civilians by Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban etc are never exposed in the local media and the people responsible never brought before an open and just court. <br /><br />Rather than continue in your typical anti Israel/US diatribe, perhaps you could have highlighted how there is a system of justice and open media in Israel. But I suspect that does not fit in with your agenda. <br /><br />PS. Did you read in the Canberra Times the quotes from Seymour Hersh that Aust/US are involved in 'elite assassinations'? I'd like to see you take the same brush of hatred to the ADF Mr Sparrow! Jeff - the issue to note is that while these allegations are just terrible, both the US and Israel are open democracies where these types of claims can be made and people brought before courts. Say what you like about the Gaza conflict, but one thing I can guarantee you, the killers of civilians by Hamas, Hezbollah, Taliban etc are never exposed in the local media and the people responsible never brought before an open and just court.

Rather than continue in your typical anti Israel/US diatribe, perhaps you could have highlighted how there is a system of justice and open media in Israel. But I suspect that does not fit in with your agenda.

PS. Did you read in the Canberra Times the quotes from Seymour Hersh that Aust/US are involved in ‘elite assassinations’? I’d like to see you take the same brush of hatred to the ADF Mr Sparrow!

]]> By: stephen http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15176 stephen Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15176 "Violence begets violence". Any solution that suggests violence is invalid, regardless of who.<br />Also , "I am a citizen of the world. To do good is my religion." is not a bad thought. “Violence begets violence”. Any solution that suggests violence is invalid, regardless of who.
Also , “I am a citizen of the world. To do good is my religion.” is not a bad thought.

]]> By: BushWasNotDemocraticalyElectedIn2000 http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15177 BushWasNotDemocraticalyElectedIn2000 Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15177 <br />Cal<br />Monday, 23 March 2009 2:58:07 PM<br /> Jeff - the issue to note is that while these allegations are just terrible, both the US and Israel are open democracies ....<br />-------------------------------------------------<br /><br />open democracies???<br />bush was not democraticaly elected in 2000<br />such a democrazy you can keep<br />not every world country wanna be or must be democratic<br />and the USA is a corrupte crap of democratic as prooven by bush in 2000<br />so get real ;) Cal
Monday, 23 March 2009 2:58:07 PM
Jeff - the issue to note is that while these allegations are just terrible, both the US and Israel are open democracies ….
 —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  —  — -

open democracies???
bush was not democraticaly elected in 2000
such a democrazy you can keep
not every world country wanna be or must be democratic
and the USA is a corrupte crap of democratic as prooven by bush in 2000
so get real ;)

]]> By: Marilyn http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15178 Marilyn Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15178 And another thing - even though I've never been to the middle east, I have read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and seen the movie! And another thing - even though I’ve never been to the middle east, I have read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and seen the movie!

]]> By: Cal http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15179 Cal Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15179 Shane. Yes i have been to Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Egypt, The Lebabnon and Iran. I was there during conflicts (the first Gulf War) and during the Gaza disengagement. I've also seen the results of terrorists blowing up a domestic bus - I've seen it with my own eyes and let me tell you Shane, it's not the same as seeing it on your loungeroom TV.<br /><br />In any conflict there are atrocities and indefensible crimes committed by both sides. But the point is we don't expect the media to present only the bombing of Dresden without a perspective of say the bombing of Coventry. We (Aust & US) are assassinating Taliban fighters and civilians - a terrible act, yet when you balance that with 9/11, Madrid, Bali and London, our actions (while not always justifiable) are more understandable. <br /><br />Hamas is not some tiny group of peaceniks. They are a banned terrorist organisation bent on bringing represive Sha'ria law to the Palestinain people. Yes, the IDF have committed some unjustifiable acts, but sitting here in middle class Aust defending acts of terror without acknowledging the murder of thousands of people strikes me as ignorant. Shane. Yes i have been to Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Egypt, The Lebabnon and Iran. I was there during conflicts (the first Gulf War) and during the Gaza disengagement. I’ve also seen the results of terrorists blowing up a domestic bus - I’ve seen it with my own eyes and let me tell you Shane, it’s not the same as seeing it on your loungeroom TV.

In any conflict there are atrocities and indefensible crimes committed by both sides. But the point is we don’t expect the media to present only the bombing of Dresden without a perspective of say the bombing of Coventry. We (Aust & US) are assassinating Taliban fighters and civilians - a terrible act, yet when you balance that with 9/11, Madrid, Bali and London, our actions (while not always justifiable) are more understandable.

Hamas is not some tiny group of peaceniks. They are a banned terrorist organisation bent on bringing represive Sha’ria law to the Palestinain people. Yes, the IDF have committed some unjustifiable acts, but sitting here in middle class Aust defending acts of terror without acknowledging the murder of thousands of people strikes me as ignorant.

]]> By: Clint's friend http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15180 Clint's friend Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15180 In the brilliant Clint Eastwood film ‘White Hunter Black Heart’ there’s a chilling scene where Clint (portraying John Huston) confronts an anti-Semite who says that London deserves the blitz because of its Jews. Clint and tells her that he’s met a lot of ugly women in his life, but she is about the ugliest creature he’s ever laid eyes on.<br /><br />Well Marilyn, in the words of Mr Eastwood, you are just about the ugliest person I’ve ever read. Crikey is about comment and debate and humour – but week in week out you display an ugliness that is truly putrid. Your gutter insults and hatreds seem straight out of the Nazi playbook. I picture you as a camp guard in another life, without Kate Winslet’s talent for empathy. <br /> In the brilliant Clint Eastwood film ‘White Hunter Black Heart’ there’s a chilling scene where Clint (portraying John Huston) confronts an anti-Semite who says that London deserves the blitz because of its Jews. Clint and tells her that he’s met a lot of ugly women in his life, but she is about the ugliest creature he’s ever laid eyes on.

Well Marilyn, in the words of Mr Eastwood, you are just about the ugliest person I’ve ever read. Crikey is about comment and debate and humour – but week in week out you display an ugliness that is truly putrid. Your gutter insults and hatreds seem straight out of the Nazi playbook. I picture you as a camp guard in another life, without Kate Winslet’s talent for empathy.

]]> By: Wagnor http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/03/23/idf-testimonials-tell-frightening-version-of-gaza-war/#comment-15181 Wagnor Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-15181 Crikey - can you please remove the antisemitic hateful comments of kevin Charles Herbert. He is obviously a sick, ill informed little man whose views should be dealth with via racial villification legislation. To accuse genuine Crikey readers of being Nazi's is offensive, as are his comments about where people live. <br /><br />This Kevin Charles Herbert appears to be devoid of character and his comments should be removed. <br /> Crikey - can you please remove the antisemitic hateful comments of kevin Charles Herbert. He is obviously a sick, ill informed little man whose views should be dealth with via racial villification legislation. To accuse genuine Crikey readers of being Nazi’s is offensive, as are his comments about where people live.

This Kevin Charles Herbert appears to be devoid of character and his comments should be removed.

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