How men can get more s-x AND celebrate International Women’s Day
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Poor Bettina Arndt! After all those years of promoting s-x to women, we stubbornly sometimes don’t want to know. She blames it all on the concept of women’s liberation, in particular the vital bit of liberation that told women they had a right to say no to unwanted s-x! This astounding claim comes from her analysis of the responses to some s-x diaries that people volunteered to fill in. Let’s leave out questions of methodology, such as how typical are the s-x lives of men and women who were prepared to keep such diaries. Or maybe how many men would ever tell a female researcher that they didn’t want more s-x than they were getting versus women who thought they may be getting a sisterly ear. There are, however, some basics of research analysis that need to be thought through. Correlation is not cause. Just because there has been a second wave feminist movement for nearly five decades, does that affect s-x lives and frequency? Were men really getting much more in the 50s? And is it feminism that causes women to say NO! I have another option to put up to explain this somewhat dodgy data. There have been changes over this time including an increased number of For all the complaints we have about paid work, it is generally easier to contain and leave behind when you head home than getting a break from the never-ending chores. Men do spend more time with their children, but this is rarely doing the grotty bits of care work, and related household chores, like finding and mending the sports uniform for tomorrow. Bed is therefore often refuge from constant demands and not the place to deal with further demands. And maybe under it all is also resentment that the man didn’t take on his share of the boring bits of households. Therefore, I propose an experiment for all partnered men who feel their needs for s-x are not being met. Spend the next year taking on a genuine 50% of all household tasks, which are randomly allocated to ensure both partners get the grotty bits. Then some sociologist could get a Maybe equal shares of domestic responsibilities may have more to do with libido changes than feminism per se. Or maybe Arndt is suggesting that women should withdraw from the paid workforce and therefore buy their financial support by meeting male needs! Happy International Women’s Day! |
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25 Comments
I agree with Eva here. The flawed assumption of Bettina’s work is that the male definition of sexual desire is normal and that women’s sexual desires are abnormal. Also that there is a ‘need’ for sex, rather than a ‘want’ for sexual pleasure If men perhaps took some time to critique their notion of a ‘right’ of sexual access to their female partners bodies in the first place and perhaps think “well what if my sexual desire was derided as deviant and hers was applauded as normal, reasonable, equitable, what might my insistence on having a right to f**k her when I want it look like”? What’s abnormal about wanting it twice a year? Do men die from no sex?? Bettina also touts the notion that women make up domestic violence and child abuse. And Bettina you are wrong that there has been an overwhelming amount of support from women. Women are not responsible for placating and stroking men who can’t cope with ‘no’ and who refuse to look inwards at their own entitled thinking around the expectation that women exist to comfort men who seem to have an inability to work out the difference btwn a want and a real need (not all men by the way). The sense of entitlement that ran through the diary entries and on Life Matters from men was astounding! How about the men explain their wive’s perceptions? Their wives experiences? Their wives feelings, instead of concentrating so deeply on their own navels (well a bit lower actually). Pleased to see some positive comments by men, rather than the usual yawn of “lets put the feminist down by attacking her personally, rather than engaging in her actual philosphical argument. And by the way, John Grey already came up with this idea of ‘putting out’ as an obligatory part of marriage- his wife divorced him. Women are busy these days guys. It’s called the five finger solution -masturbation. Meet your own sexual desires- were still busy doing the bloody laundry!
How predictable that Eva Cox and her mates are dragging out that tired out clique that more laundry would get men laid. I devote a chapter to discussing this issue in my book, ‘The Sex Diaries,’ reporting the experiences of my many female diarists who acknowledge that men who share the second shift remove one possible source of resentment which dampens female desire. Yet they admit still this is no guarantee the men will be sexually rewarded for their efforts.
I’m reporting the experiences of ordinary men and women as they negotiate this difficult aspect of relationships. My qualitive research does not pretend to be based on a representative sample but very effectively reveals the rich complexities of an issue which is all too often swamped by ideological claptrap. The enthusiastic response it is receiving from both men and women suggests it has hit the mark.
Eva, love you work, but giving the Right’s favourite sex therapist publicity might be a bit counterproductive. She’s been busy sinking into reactionary obscurity since the early ’80s and should be let slide.
Do men really want the kind of sex that is a reward for doing the laundry?
Not being snarky. It’s a genuine question.
I really don’t think men not getting off as much as they would like is an issue in itself so much as a possible symptom of something more problematic. Namely, are we stressing and tiring ourselves out to the point where we don’t have the time, or the energy, or the inclination, for the things that - like sex - are not strictly essential on an everyday basis, take perhaps a little more effort than sitting in front of the TV, but are enjoyable in themselves and/or a means to building stronger relationships and therefore happiness.
I think this is a more useful way of looking at this issue. We don’t want to regress 50 years on matters of sexual agency (and I’m assuming for my own sake that we don’t, at least most of us, right?) and, if you look at it like this, we don’t need to. The problem, if there is one, is not feminism. It is never a problem that a woman feels free to refuse sex if she doesn’t want it. The problem, if there is one, is that in all our working and consuming and worrying and child-rearing and keeping up with the Joneses, we - some of us - might be missing the point a bit. We’re forgetting to enjoy ourselves.
This is a pretty impoverished view of marriage and s*x that Eva presents and supported by the usual suspects. Marriage is portrayed as a kind of ‘mutual exploitation’, the first cousin of that Cold war doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction, or M.A.D, which is a good description of the Left at the best of times.
S*x is a form of communication, abeit very unique, and the prerequisites for any communication that is worthy of the name apply here. There must be some shared ‘values’ ( commUNIONication ) and there needs to be patience, understanding, affection, and forgiveness. The communication in the bedroom simply mirrors the communication in the remainder of the family life of the couple.
The idea that doing the chores at home ‘buys” me s*x with my spouse is bizarre and no different to the the buying of s*x in a brothel. That the Left cant tell the difference between the marriage bed and the brothel bed is no surprise. These are the same people telling women that the right to kill your unborn child is ‘Liberation’.
Eva, you are not helping! You sound like my wife!
I’d happily do all of the domestic duties for the rest of my life if it meant that my wife didn’t get so stressed out and tired. But you know what, she’d just find something else to get stressed out, tired and resentful about. That’s just what some women are like after they’ve had kids. They’re whingers! All I can put it down to is that they’re disappointed with the choices they’ve made in life, and that includes having me as a husband. But mind you, I’m a reasonably good looking guy, not overweight, active, good personality, good earner, great father, socially capable, sensitive, great listener, faithful, loyal etc. But I fear the real problem is that I’m not Hugh Jackman, Johnny Depp or some other wildy gorgeous celebrity.
I could work full time at my job all week, and then spend all of my time at home doing the domestic chores - another full time job, and at the end of it, no matter how tired I was, I would always still want sex with my wife - the women that I love. That’s how men are.
@Eva
There have been changes over this time including an increased number of
wives/mothers combining paid work with other more traditional duties
Which begs the question - wouldn’t this problem be solved by society being more relaxed about paid sex? If wives/partners are seen to exchange the old fashioned concept of domestic bliss for a professional relationship, dropping round to the local brothel may keep everybody happy.
It certainly allows market forces to unleashed on our domestic arrangements
Isn’t this all a bit stupid? There’s no formula or division of labour that will work in every case. There are just people and their relationships. Perhaps some studies should add to their interest in domestic labour, income disparities and child-rearing duties some inquiries about the division of emotional labour.
Mothers often say they become so absorbed in their children that they neglect their husbands. Some husbands, no doubt, are insensitive dolts who just want a root. But I’m just as sure that there are women and men (husbands and wives, whatever) whose emotional needs are not being met by their partners. This causes despair, unhappiness, the whole package. We need to look at people’s inner lives, surely, and not just their socio-economic positions. This is the area that needs to be improved.
And yes, all the ideologues need to climb down from their soapboxes. Isn’t ideology the enemy of thought?
I’ll have what Jane’s having
I am taking 5 minutes to respond - in between time with my 2 year old who supposed to be asleep & my 4 year old has a friend over who I pick up after the kids swimming lessons this morning. I work 4 days a week to spend time with the kids - I wash & iron the clothes & share other domestic work more than most of my mates. We out source domestic cleaning and child care. My partner runs a small but busy law firm and my sex life does not sound any different to the “average australian couple”. Blokes, don’t do it just for the sex - you will be disappointed.
This is a complex issue. Women are not all the same; men are not all the same. Some women have very high libido; some men have very low libido; but probably on average men want s-x more often than women do and the balance of desire within a couple can change over time. Many factors may contribute: hormones, health and well-being (non-tiredness), self-esteem and sense of being valued by and desirable to your partner. One woman may, for example, have reduced interest in sex because she is physically and mentally exhausted by the demands of paid work, parenting and housework, because her husband has become sour and critical of her appearance, efforts or personality, because her husband gives more positive attention and perhaps more s-x to other women, because s-x has become a boring, low effort routine, because her hormone levels have changed. Another woman may have a different pattern of causes. A third may have very high interest in sex because she is getting all the exciting times and attention the first woman’s husband once bestowed on his wife and it makes the third woman feel like Angelina Jolie.
However, Eva, as usual, has drawm attention to an important contributing factor, while Bettina continues to make a quid out of the sad fact than anything written about s-x will sell and men particularly love to read their point of view put by a woman as the whole story. And Kelly, you should hang your head in shame. Your comment was disgusting.
On the money, Eva!
We men who do our ‘50%’ of all household tasks, have no problems.
Here is a woman who hates men, sex and life. In that order! Go the Sisterhood.
If doing housework meant more sex for men then they would do it, guaranteed. Having kids turns off a woman’s sex drive, feminist said women should have control of their bodies (fair enough) and, so, less (not enough) sex for men. Bettina’s sex diary study certainly fits the picture I (a middle aged parent) see around me.
Bettina, cliches are cliches because they are true. Eva is spot on. While some men may be rewarded with more sex for doing the dishes (it does warm the cockles), they are more likely NOT to be rewarded for putting their feet up post 5pm while they watch their wives doing the laundry, dinner, dishes, school clothes and lunches, looking for lost keys, wallets, toys, continuing on and on to 9pm or later. Having someone watch you work without lifting a finger is no turn-on. However, I do believe in “relationship sex” - part of a marriage contract regardless of day to day desire. It’s important - and to be negotiated for both parties satisfaction.
I wonder if the complexity of the issue of sexually unmatched desire in long term relationships can ever be truly plumbed. Bettina’s axe really must be ground down to the hilt with the grinding she has given women’s sexual autonomy. And Eva is right about the rousing issue of domestic equity, but it seems to me (from years of girl talk) that men’s exhaustion also takes a toll of their libidos. In fact Bettina’s findings have never correlated with any women I know, so there is something odd going on.
I see a simpler cause. Monogamy is the problem. All this earnest discussion and research and angst also reflects on this possibility. Monogamy doesn’t work in the vast majority of cases. It has demonstrably and palpably failed over centuries of attempts at sexually exclusive relationships. Yet for so many reasons, and lots of them very good, we persist. I think monogamy is in a state of crisis and we should take a good hard look at its viability and try and imagine different ways to sexually relate. For all that I am ‘true’ to it, simply because, as so many people have found, betrayal, even agreed open relationships, hurt the very one you love. How to marry love to monogamy …
Kelly should be moderated off Crikey. She responded to a piece I wrote with ‘On the Rags Liz?’ Her misogynistic comments have no place in a forum like this.
I bet Eva Cox has never been sexually harrassed.
Goodness me, I know plenty of women with libidos that rival (and exceed) most men, including myself.
I think the reasons of time and exhaustion are quite good explanations.
The problem would seem to be with the relationship itself, emotionally and/or physically. That’s the most obvious thing, in my opinion. If that’s the case, the man in the relationship would certainly not be blame-free.
Bettina Arndt continues in her self-appointed role as man’s best friend. Perhaps no s-x is preferable to second-rate sex. And surely men can speak for themselves.
Good one Eva, you’re hot!
Like a competent scientific thinker you can see through the well paid simplicity.
Thanks from the thinking women I know whom agree with you.
I also have done a study on this topic. I have used a longitudinal case study method with a random sample of one. In 23 years I have found that imploring my wife to close her eyes and spread em in the interests of domestic harmony is negatively related to s-xual frequency. The more I implore the less frequent the s-x. On the other hand the level of my contributions to the housework is positively linked to the frequency of sexual activity. A very high correlation. Thank you Eva .. at last some bloody sense on the topic of this absurd headline grabbing ‘study’.
yes, yes, yeees, yeeeeees, YES! And see Liz Conor’s moment-by-moment account too, in today’s crikey.
Bettina Andt is so predictable in her quest for book sales. Her championing of the male must have resulted in many books being bought by a man and put on a woman’s pillow. Many years ago my grandmother who was born long before the feminists told me to my surprise that she was very pleased when sex was no longer part of her life. The advice to women to lie back and think of England very much predated feminism.
Eva is right of course. A woman has so little time to meet her own needs that further demands on her time by a husband who is prepared to let her do all the planning, all the work and earn a living as well means that his demands are heaped on a great deal of resentment over his laziness and leisure time. No turn on at all especially if a man’s idea of sex is wham, bam, thank you maam, which leaves a woman feeling used. This is what Bettina is advocating. Seems there will be arise in the divorce rate if her advice is followed with even more men saying “What did I do wrong?”
The proposition by Bettina that a woman has to satisfy her husband’s needs and not expect to have any of her own needs met is disappointing because it has gained so much publicity. All the better to make her rich. Bettina may devote a chapter of her book to the need for a man to think of his partner and her workload but that wasn’t what she discussed on Lateline. Bettina is happy to ride to wealth on her sister’s backs which is the worst aspect of her “research”.
trish ! You’re right on all 3
In my youth the girls would be instantly popular and liked by boys if they fluttered their eyelashes and talked to the boy’s about their sex (the boy’s sex). The mother stroke.
Cliches are cliches because they are generalisations. (yes, I do realise the irony of that sentence)