Comments on: The Catholic Church rebellion is getting out of control http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 11:02:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Daniel http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-223 Daniel Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-223 These Catholics still consider themselves to be Catholic, and they do not want to be excommunicated by the Church. <br /><br />If they were Protestant, this whole scenario wouldn't even be an issue. <br /><br /> These Catholics still consider themselves to be Catholic, and they do not want to be excommunicated by the Church.

If they were Protestant, this whole scenario wouldn’t even be an issue.

]]> By: Anne Keane http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-224 Anne Keane Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-224 The problem for the Catholic Church is that it seems to be able to protect clergy who are accused of serious sexual assualts but has no tolerance for clergy who are following Vatican 11 changes.<br /><br />The ordinary Catholic is confused by this, particularly those who agree with tolerance and support for the marginalised. The idea of "temple police" being present at church services is abhorrent. The problem for the Catholic Church is that it seems to be able to protect clergy who are accused of serious sexual assualts but has no tolerance for clergy who are following Vatican 11 changes.

The ordinary Catholic is confused by this, particularly those who agree with tolerance and support for the marginalised. The idea of “temple police” being present at church services is abhorrent.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-225 Daniel Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-225 In some cases the Church's values run counter to the values of a liberal democratic society, such as Australia. In this sense they can be called extreme.<br /><br />I think the Catholic Church can handle the criticism. It certainly is not the victim here. In some cases the Church’s values run counter to the values of a liberal democratic society, such as Australia. In this sense they can be called extreme.

I think the Catholic Church can handle the criticism. It certainly is not the victim here.

]]> By: John http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-226 John Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-226 I find the use of some terms here to be misleading. "Moderate" is used to describe Bishop Morris, when in proposing women priests he is contradicting a definitive teaching of the Church. Thus, in effect is implies Church teaching is "extreme" and those who dissent are the good guys. Why can't a church define its doctrine without being painted as being extreme?<br /><br />Then, it derides as "temple police" those who protest practices that are contrary to Church teaching. So it seems to disobey is "moderate", but if you are faithful and protest against false practices you are "temple police."<br /><br />Looks like the odds are pretty well loaded here, how about a bit of reporting without value-added adjectives? I find the use of some terms here to be misleading. “Moderate” is used to describe Bishop Morris, when in proposing women priests he is contradicting a definitive teaching of the Church. Thus, in effect is implies Church teaching is “extreme” and those who dissent are the good guys. Why can’t a church define its doctrine without being painted as being extreme?

Then, it derides as “temple police” those who protest practices that are contrary to Church teaching. So it seems to disobey is “moderate”, but if you are faithful and protest against false practices you are “temple police.”

Looks like the odds are pretty well loaded here, how about a bit of reporting without value-added adjectives?

]]> By: Dan http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-227 Dan Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-227 You know, pretty much these 'Catholics' just seem to be Protestants at the moment. So what's the big deal? I know some in the Inquisition are saying Fr Kennedy denies the Virgin Birth. Is this so? Meanwhile, the RCs are on the back foot. RCs nil. St Mary's One.<br /><br />But if it turns out that he is not really a Christian after all, the Pope, God help us, will seem to be on the right ground, if history is some guide.<br /><br />It would be great if he is just preaching the gospel. But if he is just some theist muddling it up as he goes along, then for heck's sake, why wouldn't the Empire Strike Back . . . no matter how many turn up to Mass. You know, pretty much these ‘Catholics’ just seem to be Protestants at the moment. So what’s the big deal? I know some in the Inquisition are saying Fr Kennedy denies the Virgin Birth. Is this so? Meanwhile, the RCs are on the back foot. RCs nil. St Mary’s One.

But if it turns out that he is not really a Christian after all, the Pope, God help us, will seem to be on the right ground, if history is some guide.

It would be great if he is just preaching the gospel. But if he is just some theist muddling it up as he goes along, then for heck’s sake, why wouldn’t the Empire Strike Back … no matter how many turn up to Mass.

]]> By: John James http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-228 John James Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-228 Tell me what those 'values' are, Daniel. Tell me what those ‘values’ are, Daniel.

]]> By: charlotte http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/23/the-catholic-church-rebellion-is-getting-out-of-control/#comment-229 charlotte Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-229 I think i can help John. Those liberal-democratic values of Australian society would include, for example, equal human rights for women, anti-vilification of homosexuality and same-sex couples, anti-contraception (let alone abortion in life-threatening or rape contexts) even in the face of HIV-AIDS epidemic in Africa. And thats not counting all the weird value-judgments tucked away in those archaic documents of the Vatican (I mean they only recently recanted on their centuries-old vilification of Gallileo....). I definitely regard the values of Pell et al extreme. And, judging by their congregation sizes and their age, i think you can say they are not representing the views of most people in Australia. <br /><br />But what i find most extreme about the Church when measured against liberal-democratic values/practices is that it firmly believes that it has a monopoly on truth and morals for everyone, everywhere, for all time. That is at odds completely with rationale and practice of 'reason of state' (hence it was vilified as 'atheist' when it emerged) and even more so with democratic sovereignty. While the Church accommodated, as they had to, the separation of Church and state, as I understand it, it was only after WW2 in early 1960 that the conservative Yves Simon was able to convince the Vatican that democracy was not a necessary threat to the Church. And he only achieved that by arguing that while, for example, women no longer needed to be treated as deficient and could have the vote, this did not mean that they had any right or proficiency to say what the collective interests of society were - they could only represent their particular interests. Hence (and this is his example) no matter what women say it is the the governors who would independently decide they should stay at home for the good of society. No arguments. The problem is that nowadays we tend to call these people in liberal-democracies arrogant @#$&* and unfit for positions in government. I think i can help John. Those liberal-democratic values of Australian society would include, for example, equal human rights for women, anti-vilification of homosexuality and same-sex couples, anti-contraception (let alone abortion in life-threatening or rape contexts) even in the face of HIV-AIDS epidemic in Africa. And thats not counting all the weird value-judgments tucked away in those archaic documents of the Vatican (I mean they only recently recanted on their centuries-old vilification of Gallileo….). I definitely regard the values of Pell et al extreme. And, judging by their congregation sizes and their age, i think you can say they are not representing the views of most people in Australia.

But what i find most extreme about the Church when measured against liberal-democratic values/practices is that it firmly believes that it has a monopoly on truth and morals for everyone, everywhere, for all time. That is at odds completely with rationale and practice of ‘reason of state’ (hence it was vilified as ‘atheist’ when it emerged) and even more so with democratic sovereignty. While the Church accommodated, as they had to, the separation of Church and state, as I understand it, it was only after WW2 in early 1960 that the conservative Yves Simon was able to convince the Vatican that democracy was not a necessary threat to the Church. And he only achieved that by arguing that while, for example, women no longer needed to be treated as deficient and could have the vote, this did not mean that they had any right or proficiency to say what the collective interests of society were - they could only represent their particular interests. Hence (and this is his example) no matter what women say it is the the governors who would independently decide they should stay at home for the good of society. No arguments. The problem is that nowadays we tend to call these people in liberal-democracies arrogant @#$&* and unfit for positions in government.

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