<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t blame the greenies, blame the lack of bunkers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:48:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom McLoughlin</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/#comment-12905</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom McLoughlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12905</guid>
		<description>In NSW the same game plan for the rednecks (advisedly) was exposed big time. Of 830 fires a mere 67 were in national parks, mostly burning into not out of. Only 3 in declared wilderness areas - no threat to life or property being so remote. This was the director of NPWS in a letter to The Australian for all to read.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;NAFI are losing the momentum on this one, and their cover is blown. For 5 decades they logged rainforest and wet old growth forest types - no doubt all around Kinglake West, Marysville, Kilmore etc. They got their way in the main. Now look at the pictures in The Australian of blacked trees to the horizon back to Melbourne. They don&#039;t show fuel load - what they show are state forest logging zones on the mountain above Kinglake that were skinny dry sclerophyll regrowth. The kind that burns the way wet old growth and rainforest doesn&#039;t burn. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let&#039;s get the harvesting plans out for the last 50 years. The timber volumes chipped per logging coup to indicate tree size, and species. Let&#039;s see what areas burned today as dry sclerophyl that used to be wet old growth and rainforest decades ago before the 8M tonnes a year woodchip sector mined the trees for chips and converted it all to dry sclerophyl. Before climate extremes turbo charged the regrowth wick and negligence or criminality lit it all up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There will be some areas that were always dry sclerophyl but in a mosaic. Now its monoculture dry forest type. Thankyou rednecks. No wonder they don&#039;t want to talk land tenures or statistics of firestorm origins. It was the same in NSW in 1994. Damning stats of their own land use failures in state forest and less extent private farm land, and greed. Damn their impudence. They systemically killed off our wet forests over 5 decades and want to blame the greenies for that? Get real. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In NSW the same game plan for the rednecks (advisedly) was exposed big time. Of 830 fires a mere 67 were in national parks, mostly burning into not out of. Only 3 in declared wilderness areas - no threat to life or property being so remote. This was the director of NPWS in a letter to The Australian for all to read.</p>
<p>NAFI are losing the momentum on this one, and their cover is blown. For 5 decades they logged rainforest and wet old growth forest types - no doubt all around Kinglake West, Marysville, Kilmore etc. They got their way in the main. Now look at the pictures in The Australian of blacked trees to the horizon back to Melbourne. They don&#8217;t show fuel load - what they show are state forest logging zones on the mountain above Kinglake that were skinny dry sclerophyll regrowth. The kind that burns the way wet old growth and rainforest doesn&#8217;t burn. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s get the harvesting plans out for the last 50 years. The timber volumes chipped per logging coup to indicate tree size, and species. Let&#8217;s see what areas burned today as dry sclerophyl that used to be wet old growth and rainforest decades ago before the 8M tonnes a year woodchip sector mined the trees for chips and converted it all to dry sclerophyl. Before climate extremes turbo charged the regrowth wick and negligence or criminality lit it all up.</p>
<p>There will be some areas that were always dry sclerophyl but in a mosaic. Now its monoculture dry forest type. Thankyou rednecks. No wonder they don&#8217;t want to talk land tenures or statistics of firestorm origins. It was the same in NSW in 1994. Damning stats of their own land use failures in state forest and less extent private farm land, and greed. Damn their impudence. They systemically killed off our wet forests over 5 decades and want to blame the greenies for that? Get real.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom McLoughlin</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/#comment-12906</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom McLoughlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12906</guid>
		<description>The Herald Sun won&#039;t let any comments on the Rob Incoll opinion piece go forward promoting the hazard reduction/fuel load claim. I made my comment at about 4am this morning and kept a copy knowing the way the world works, onto my blog. Along the lines of the above about a career long blindness about conversion of wet forest types to dry sclerophyl and leaving moisture out of the oxygen, fuel, ignition bushfire equation. So convenient, so cynical.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The Herald Sun moderators have pulled it off comment from the public by the look of things here:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Need action to prevent similar disasters&lt;br /&gt;Rob Incoll&lt;br /&gt;February 16, 2009 12:00am&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25058241-5000117,00.html&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;God I hope 4 Corners tonight give the loggers what they deserve after their fun at the expense of green people many of them fatal victims of their logging legacy in central Victoria. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;How long until the power company being sued joins the state forest agency as a co-defendant, or even some of these dog woodchippers? Their actions of destroying wet forest were &quot;reasonably foreseeable&quot; for expert foresters to quote Donoghue v Stevenson. Turning wet forest into dry across whole landscapes was always going to lead to bushfire/wildfire/megafire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Herald Sun won&#8217;t let any comments on the Rob Incoll opinion piece go forward promoting the hazard reduction/fuel load claim. I made my comment at about 4am this morning and kept a copy knowing the way the world works, onto my blog. Along the lines of the above about a career long blindness about conversion of wet forest types to dry sclerophyl and leaving moisture out of the oxygen, fuel, ignition bushfire equation. So convenient, so cynical.</p>
<p>The Herald Sun moderators have pulled it off comment from the public by the look of things here:</p>
<p>Need action to prevent similar disasters<br />Rob Incoll<br />February 16, 2009 12:00am</p>
<p><a href="http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25058241-5000117,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25058241-5000117,00.html</a></p>
<p>God I hope 4 Corners tonight give the loggers what they deserve after their fun at the expense of green people many of them fatal victims of their logging legacy in central Victoria. </p>
<p>How long until the power company being sued joins the state forest agency as a co-defendant, or even some of these dog woodchippers? Their actions of destroying wet forest were &#8220;reasonably foreseeable&#8221; for expert foresters to quote Donoghue v Stevenson. Turning wet forest into dry across whole landscapes was always going to lead to bushfire/wildfire/megafire.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: M. James</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/#comment-12907</link>
		<dc:creator>M. James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12907</guid>
		<description>While bunkers are being much discussed (has it really taken us 200 years to figure this out?) the paradox of the remarkable Jim Baruta experience is that it is evident that the bunker was actually NOT critical in his survival.  As his video clearly showed, his house survived barely touched by the fire–and more remarkable, his garage—sharing walls with the bunker—also survived despite being apparently loaded up with plenty of highly flammable things.  The point is that Jim Baruta shows that the “leave early or prepare and stay” policy remains perfectly valid.  The emphasis is on “prepared” and it is equally clear that in the great Australian complacency, hardly anyone was prepared—even though all day Saturday the warning signs were clear to everyone.  In the widely covered Hughes experience, they had woeful preparation (apparently a roof ventilator allowed free access of embers into the ceiling space!) but nevertheless survived because the house gave sufficient protection for just long enough (before being burnt from the inside out) that they could find already-burnt clear ground to shelter;  this was an example of surviving by not panicking.  The endless pictures of completely burnt-out houses does not prove that either they cannot be saved by simple measures nor that even with little proper preparation they cannot provide some protection that is a lot better than being outside or worse, in a car.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Jim should be sent on a lecture circuit to show his fellow bush-dwellers what simple and relatively inexpensive measures can save a house (and thereby save themselves).  It would be worth much more than the official bureaucratese that is likely to come out of any government enquiry in which the health-and-safety brigade will most likely propose the usual over-the-top and unaffordable, impractical measures.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While bunkers are being much discussed (has it really taken us 200 years to figure this out?) the paradox of the remarkable Jim Baruta experience is that it is evident that the bunker was actually NOT critical in his survival.  As his video clearly showed, his house survived barely touched by the fire–and more remarkable, his garage—sharing walls with the bunker—also survived despite being apparently loaded up with plenty of highly flammable things.  The point is that Jim Baruta shows that the “leave early or prepare and stay” policy remains perfectly valid.  The emphasis is on “prepared” and it is equally clear that in the great Australian complacency, hardly anyone was prepared—even though all day Saturday the warning signs were clear to everyone.  In the widely covered Hughes experience, they had woeful preparation (apparently a roof ventilator allowed free access of embers into the ceiling space!) but nevertheless survived because the house gave sufficient protection for just long enough (before being burnt from the inside out) that they could find already-burnt clear ground to shelter;  this was an example of surviving by not panicking.  The endless pictures of completely burnt-out houses does not prove that either they cannot be saved by simple measures nor that even with little proper preparation they cannot provide some protection that is a lot better than being outside or worse, in a car.</p>
<p>Jim should be sent on a lecture circuit to show his fellow bush-dwellers what simple and relatively inexpensive measures can save a house (and thereby save themselves).  It would be worth much more than the official bureaucratese that is likely to come out of any government enquiry in which the health-and-safety brigade will most likely propose the usual over-the-top and unaffordable, impractical measures.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom McLoughlin</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/#comment-12908</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom McLoughlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12908</guid>
		<description>That Baruta story revealed from memory the house was double not single brick or other material. More expensive for that reason too. This was the gist of extensive comment elsewhere. Interesting to read Les Murray the poet about bunkers in the Sunday press. I go along with that too. Critical to be away from the dwelling says author Paul Collins. My buddy who survived the 94 fires Mellong on the Singleton Rd (they were told by police to evacuate, instead did a back burn up to their farm houses, sheds) suggests  alternative independent air hole perhaps via an extended inlet pipe system to 100 metres away. Has a logic to it with fire passing over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That Baruta story revealed from memory the house was double not single brick or other material. More expensive for that reason too. This was the gist of extensive comment elsewhere. Interesting to read Les Murray the poet about bunkers in the Sunday press. I go along with that too. Critical to be away from the dwelling says author Paul Collins. My buddy who survived the 94 fires Mellong on the Singleton Rd (they were told by police to evacuate, instead did a back burn up to their farm houses, sheds) suggests  alternative independent air hole perhaps via an extended inlet pipe system to 100 metres away. Has a logic to it with fire passing over.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Venise Alstergren</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/#comment-12909</link>
		<dc:creator>Venise Alstergren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12909</guid>
		<description>Does anyone really think the Greenies are to blame? People who recognize a path to power may be achieved by jumping aboard the Green movement are far more guilty. As for the redneck brigade one has to understand they make an awful lot of noise but frankly they are none too bright.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Who allowed the shonky building standards to take over the building industry? Deliberately shaving off any impediment to survival in order to sell cheap sub-standard buildings? Who allowed people to build houses smack up against national forests? Who allowed town planners to construct cul-de-sacs in high fire danger areas? Who allowed the sheer numbers of people to move into these fragile areas? Streets which once had two or three houses now having forty houses: whilst failing to maintain any infrastructure? Who allowed people to build in these areas without building fire shelters? Who thinks it&#039;s more important to tender for the next available Olympics, or to spend 500 million dollars to up-grade the Rod Laver arena? Who has allowed the construction of a power-hungry desalination plant, to be fueled by brown-coal? Who has quickly called for a royal commission, in order to deflect the guilt of allowing all of these things to happen? Who allows the barbarism of the Formula one car racing event to happen on a yearly basis?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Once you&#039;ve worked these questions through, you might ask yourselves if it would have been better under a government led by the state Coalition? Personally, I don&#039;t think so. Instead of the present government just accepting payments  from the developers, the Coalition would probably have tendered for the tender, as it were. Throughout our history our various states&#039; governments have been reveling in sh-t. Occasionally nature bites back. And people are fried alive. And we all know governments are seldom held to account for anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone really think the Greenies are to blame? People who recognize a path to power may be achieved by jumping aboard the Green movement are far more guilty. As for the redneck brigade one has to understand they make an awful lot of noise but frankly they are none too bright.</p>
<p>Who allowed the shonky building standards to take over the building industry? Deliberately shaving off any impediment to survival in order to sell cheap sub-standard buildings? Who allowed people to build houses smack up against national forests? Who allowed town planners to construct cul-de-sacs in high fire danger areas? Who allowed the sheer numbers of people to move into these fragile areas? Streets which once had two or three houses now having forty houses: whilst failing to maintain any infrastructure? Who allowed people to build in these areas without building fire shelters? Who thinks it&#8217;s more important to tender for the next available Olympics, or to spend 500 million dollars to up-grade the Rod Laver arena? Who has allowed the construction of a power-hungry desalination plant, to be fueled by brown-coal? Who has quickly called for a royal commission, in order to deflect the guilt of allowing all of these things to happen? Who allows the barbarism of the Formula one car racing event to happen on a yearly basis?</p>
<p>Once you&#8217;ve worked these questions through, you might ask yourselves if it would have been better under a government led by the state Coalition? Personally, I don&#8217;t think so. Instead of the present government just accepting payments  from the developers, the Coalition would probably have tendered for the tender, as it were. Throughout our history our various states&#8217; governments have been reveling in sh-t. Occasionally nature bites back. And people are fried alive. And we all know governments are seldom held to account for anything.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: fehowarth</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/02/16/dont-blame-the-greenies-blame-the-lack-of-bunkers/#comment-12910</link>
		<dc:creator>fehowarth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12910</guid>
		<description>What I picked up from comments made was that there were a lot of people who could not make the decision whether to go or stay through lack of understanding of the danger they were in.  Statements like &quot;no one told us&quot;.  Surely they put there heads outside, they would have been asking for advice, not waiting to be told.  There were many who survived that understood where they could be safe.  One family cover themselves between two large water tanks. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The policy of making the decision to go or stay can only if work if you have the necessary knowledge of dangers to make a informed decision.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I picked up from comments made was that there were a lot of people who could not make the decision whether to go or stay through lack of understanding of the danger they were in.  Statements like &#8220;no one told us&#8221;.  Surely they put there heads outside, they would have been asking for advice, not waiting to be told.  There were many who survived that understood where they could be safe.  One family cover themselves between two large water tanks. </p>
<p>The policy of making the decision to go or stay can only if work if you have the necessary knowledge of dangers to make a informed decision.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Page Caching using disk: enhanced
Object Caching 593/603 objects using apc

Served from: www.crikey.com.au @ 2012-02-12 16:12:30 -->
