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	<title>Comments on: A deficit might be the most decisive thing</title>
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		<title>By: Nats</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18028</link>
		<dc:creator>Nats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18028</guid>
		<description>Jono, we have been living in a Friedmanite world for a long time; to say it is Keynesian failings that got us here is absurd.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Costello&#039;s budget surpluses in times of greed and money flow is exactly what Friedman would have done; keep the money supply tight, and inflation will remain low. Although I was a Keynesian as an economics student, I watched how its implementation helped break stagflation - the old rule that you could never have both low inflation and low unemployment. The fact is that Costello, pushed by Howard&#039;s pork barrel, let inflation out of the bottle, just in time for the global meltdown. It&#039;s what you get when you mix two opposing theories together and expect magic. Sorry Davo, but it&#039;s not so straight forward.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The global decline was due to other factors which you wouldn&#039;t find in either camp&#039;s manual... it was poorly managed lending which was packaged up and sold around the world based on misleading statements. Throw in Bush&#039;s tax cuts to the rich and you have an inflated property market serviced by those who can&#039;t afford them... they needed tax cuts, not waiting for the gracious &#039;trickle-down&#039; from the wealthy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I also don&#039;t see why we are handing out grants to those who mismanaged their shareholder wealth. And the reason the markets are not reacting to Keynesian tactics is because they know the fastest way out is through a lot of pain... mortgagee sales, retrenching execs and letting companies fall. It&#039;s just that whoever allows that will be politically crucified. And that&#039;s why you have vultures like Turnbull and Hockey carping from the skies, hoping for a carcass to scrounge off and feed on. We are damned either way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jono, we have been living in a Friedmanite world for a long time; to say it is Keynesian failings that got us here is absurd.</p>
<p>Costello&#8217;s budget surpluses in times of greed and money flow is exactly what Friedman would have done; keep the money supply tight, and inflation will remain low. Although I was a Keynesian as an economics student, I watched how its implementation helped break stagflation - the old rule that you could never have both low inflation and low unemployment. The fact is that Costello, pushed by Howard&#8217;s pork barrel, let inflation out of the bottle, just in time for the global meltdown. It&#8217;s what you get when you mix two opposing theories together and expect magic. Sorry Davo, but it&#8217;s not so straight forward.</p>
<p>The global decline was due to other factors which you wouldn&#8217;t find in either camp&#8217;s manual&#8230; it was poorly managed lending which was packaged up and sold around the world based on misleading statements. Throw in Bush&#8217;s tax cuts to the rich and you have an inflated property market serviced by those who can&#8217;t afford them&#8230; they needed tax cuts, not waiting for the gracious &#8216;trickle-down&#8217; from the wealthy.</p>
<p>I also don&#8217;t see why we are handing out grants to those who mismanaged their shareholder wealth. And the reason the markets are not reacting to Keynesian tactics is because they know the fastest way out is through a lot of pain&#8230; mortgagee sales, retrenching execs and letting companies fall. It&#8217;s just that whoever allows that will be politically crucified. And that&#8217;s why you have vultures like Turnbull and Hockey carping from the skies, hoping for a carcass to scrounge off and feed on. We are damned either way.</p>
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		<title>By: Jono</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18029</link>
		<dc:creator>Jono</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18029</guid>
		<description>Phylli Ives - we already *are* following Keynesian ideas, thats what got us into this mess into the first place. All this credit expansion created by central banks trying to keep interest rates low in the past is coming home to roost.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;FDR and the New Deal didn&#039;t bring America out of the great depression. It prolonged and deepened the depression. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;FDR tried price fixing and trade barriers, and none of it helped. He tried to keep the price of farmers labor high, and it failed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now Bush/Obama, Paulson and Bernanke are trying to keep the prices of property and shares high. The amount of rushed legislation passed in the last year is astounding. Bernanke and Paulson are all Keynesian fools. Trust me, if you&#039;re a fan of Keynesian ideas, you&#039;ll be very pleased with Bernanke. None of his efforts have worked and he is running out of bullets, but he can always rely on one weapon - the printing press.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;After this round of deflation, expect hyper-inflation and the end of the US dollar as the world&#039;s reserve currency. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phylli Ives - we already *are* following Keynesian ideas, thats what got us into this mess into the first place. All this credit expansion created by central banks trying to keep interest rates low in the past is coming home to roost.</p>
<p>FDR and the New Deal didn&#8217;t bring America out of the great depression. It prolonged and deepened the depression. </p>
<p>FDR tried price fixing and trade barriers, and none of it helped. He tried to keep the price of farmers labor high, and it failed.</p>
<p>Now Bush/Obama, Paulson and Bernanke are trying to keep the prices of property and shares high. The amount of rushed legislation passed in the last year is astounding. Bernanke and Paulson are all Keynesian fools. Trust me, if you&#8217;re a fan of Keynesian ideas, you&#8217;ll be very pleased with Bernanke. None of his efforts have worked and he is running out of bullets, but he can always rely on one weapon - the printing press.</p>
<p>After this round of deflation, expect hyper-inflation and the end of the US dollar as the world&#8217;s reserve currency.</p>
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		<title>By: Phylli Ives</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18030</link>
		<dc:creator>Phylli Ives</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18030</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the world leaders and the Prime Minister should go back to the history books and read about the Keynesian theory and FDR&#039;s New Deal which brought the US out of the Great Depression.  Of course we don&#039;t have a great depression yet but they should definitely look ahead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the world leaders and the Prime Minister should go back to the history books and read about the Keynesian theory and FDR&#8217;s New Deal which brought the US out of the Great Depression.  Of course we don&#8217;t have a great depression yet but they should definitely look ahead.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18031</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18031</guid>
		<description>I was a bit sceptical from the start about the scheme to place pensioners at the centre of the nations economic engine. You can&#039;t ride on the back of a pensioner, as they are generally too frail, and our most best trading neighbours frown on live exports. So fattening them up, laudible as it is before Christmas, earns no money. Now we have to find out if the government, even a labour-branded government, knows the difference between Keynesianism and plain old pork barrelling.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I hope we can avoid any more insolvent industries claiming that their dog ate their balance sheets and, if the government would just give them one more chance they would do better next time. Even more so, no more of the inane pabulum of the housing Minister seeking to pump air into a housing market which resembles no so much a balloon as the final moments of a certain famous zepellin. Those with debt must keep it; its theirs, they bought it fair and square. The Governments job is to look for future opportunities which will generate income and support spending, not prop up debt. It also mightn&#039;t hurt if the banks dropped business lending rates before credit cards, housing loans, car loans and other forms of non-investment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was a bit sceptical from the start about the scheme to place pensioners at the centre of the nations economic engine. You can&#8217;t ride on the back of a pensioner, as they are generally too frail, and our most best trading neighbours frown on live exports. So fattening them up, laudible as it is before Christmas, earns no money. Now we have to find out if the government, even a labour-branded government, knows the difference between Keynesianism and plain old pork barrelling.</p>
<p>I hope we can avoid any more insolvent industries claiming that their dog ate their balance sheets and, if the government would just give them one more chance they would do better next time. Even more so, no more of the inane pabulum of the housing Minister seeking to pump air into a housing market which resembles no so much a balloon as the final moments of a certain famous zepellin. Those with debt must keep it; its theirs, they bought it fair and square. The Governments job is to look for future opportunities which will generate income and support spending, not prop up debt. It also mightn&#8217;t hurt if the banks dropped business lending rates before credit cards, housing loans, car loans and other forms of non-investment.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilyn</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18032</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18032</guid>
		<description>Howard would have given a hand out to the rich and told the poor to get stuffed.   Now I am poor and I am going to buy a new couch with my money.   I have not had one since 1987 and it is pretty sad and tired.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So why is Crikey whining about poor people getting some money to spend when a surplus is just grand larceny and over charging on taxes in the first place?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard would have given a hand out to the rich and told the poor to get stuffed.   Now I am poor and I am going to buy a new couch with my money.   I have not had one since 1987 and it is pretty sad and tired.</p>
<p>So why is Crikey whining about poor people getting some money to spend when a surplus is just grand larceny and over charging on taxes in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18033</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18033</guid>
		<description>I am not convinced that a tax break is a good thing. Governments may have a patchy record of directing investment, but they and corporations are the only mechanisms we have of collectively directing resources. Individual tax cuts will just go on individual debt - which tends to be cars, houses etc and no broadband networks, industrial research, transport etc. People have generally argued that corporations are much better than governments at targeting investment and, of course, government&#039;s record is patchy. But then, the present crisis is proof positive that the corporate sector is equally capable of disasterously misallocating resources. If they want to disasterously misallocate their own resources, then fine, but I think the government is going to have to get into the business of targeted investment to protect the tax payer from them simply using the federal budget as a bailout. What we have to avoid is welfare for corporations, and individuals, who have gotten into financially unviable positions. The believers in the free market really should start believing in the part where badly managed firms fail.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Re Simon; I&#039;m not sure the RBA shares as much blame for the credit bubble as the banks and, of course, us punters. The RBA and the government failed to stop it, but the banks created the bubble and we collectively bought the mortgages. There certainly wouldn&#039;t have been any time in the past five years where the general public would have welcomed the RBA stopping house prices rising. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not convinced that a tax break is a good thing. Governments may have a patchy record of directing investment, but they and corporations are the only mechanisms we have of collectively directing resources. Individual tax cuts will just go on individual debt - which tends to be cars, houses etc and no broadband networks, industrial research, transport etc. People have generally argued that corporations are much better than governments at targeting investment and, of course, government&#8217;s record is patchy. But then, the present crisis is proof positive that the corporate sector is equally capable of disasterously misallocating resources. If they want to disasterously misallocate their own resources, then fine, but I think the government is going to have to get into the business of targeted investment to protect the tax payer from them simply using the federal budget as a bailout. What we have to avoid is welfare for corporations, and individuals, who have gotten into financially unviable positions. The believers in the free market really should start believing in the part where badly managed firms fail.</p>
<p>Re Simon; I&#8217;m not sure the RBA shares as much blame for the credit bubble as the banks and, of course, us punters. The RBA and the government failed to stop it, but the banks created the bubble and we collectively bought the mortgages. There certainly wouldn&#8217;t have been any time in the past five years where the general public would have welcomed the RBA stopping house prices rising.</p>
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		<title>By: denise</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18034</link>
		<dc:creator>denise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18034</guid>
		<description>Do you know people the unemployed will thank  NO one if their is cash left in the bank,  Its a bit like watching your children starve while you make sure the bank book is in credit.  So the opposition and co can carp all they like , And also more people working means less unemployment cheques and more GST  so the deficit makes sense to me.  I really think that Mr. Rudd knows  this but its good to keep talking about a good bank balance makes every one happy,  but really everyone knows  what the real story will be. Thank&lt;br /&gt;god we have the labour party now.    I heard a liberal say the pensioners will just save it i can tell you my list is a long as a piece of string i have spent 20 times on essentials  so there.  Shows you how out of touch the liberals are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you know people the unemployed will thank  NO one if their is cash left in the bank,  Its a bit like watching your children starve while you make sure the bank book is in credit.  So the opposition and co can carp all they like , And also more people working means less unemployment cheques and more GST  so the deficit makes sense to me.  I really think that Mr. Rudd knows  this but its good to keep talking about a good bank balance makes every one happy,  but really everyone knows  what the real story will be. Thank<br />god we have the labour party now.    I heard a liberal say the pensioners will just save it i can tell you my list is a long as a piece of string i have spent 20 times on essentials  so there.  Shows you how out of touch the liberals are.</p>
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		<title>By: davo</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18035</link>
		<dc:creator>davo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18035</guid>
		<description>Jono: the biggest boom in history - 1945- 1973 was fuelled by Keynesian policy. It was only when the free-traders took over Treasury and the parties that it ended - the rise of Thatcher, Reagan and later Hawke, and satan&#039;s own John Howard - the biggest failure in Australian history (and that&#039;s saying somehting - a bigger failure than even McMahon or Parkes) got control of the books, and basically robbed everyone... so perhaps the Depression did get worse, but FDR adn Keynesianism also brought us out of it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And next ime your house gets robbed (which I hope it doesn&#039;t), don&#039;t call the police. After all, they&#039;re paid with &#039;stolen&#039; money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jono: the biggest boom in history - 1945- 1973 was fuelled by Keynesian policy. It was only when the free-traders took over Treasury and the parties that it ended - the rise of Thatcher, Reagan and later Hawke, and satan&#8217;s own John Howard - the biggest failure in Australian history (and that&#8217;s saying somehting - a bigger failure than even McMahon or Parkes) got control of the books, and basically robbed everyone&#8230; so perhaps the Depression did get worse, but FDR adn Keynesianism also brought us out of it.</p>
<p>And next ime your house gets robbed (which I hope it doesn&#8217;t), don&#8217;t call the police. After all, they&#8217;re paid with &#8216;stolen&#8217; money.</p>
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		<title>By: Cryptic</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18036</link>
		<dc:creator>Cryptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18036</guid>
		<description>The difference between being &quot;decisive&quot; and having to go into &quot;deficit&quot; is having deep pockets and strong hands rather than a &quot;life vest&quot; which is full of holes, i.e. a life vest which contains a &quot;lie&quot;.&lt;br /&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference between being &#8220;decisive&#8221; and having to go into &#8220;deficit&#8221; is having deep pockets and strong hands rather than a &#8220;life vest&#8221; which is full of holes, i.e. a life vest which contains a &#8220;lie&#8221;.<br />.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18037</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18037</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for the Government handing out colourful pieces of plastic with numbers printed on it to the unemployed and other needy people, just not to corporations who have failed in their ability to price risk and show no signs of being able to do better on the public teat. However, if we go deeply into deficit and the government is not spending on anything that produces income then the distracting artwork on the dollars handed out will be the unemployeds only consolation, because the purchasing value of those dollars is going to decline sharply.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess it depends on the deflation vs inflation argument, but printing money which goes on unfinanced consumption - however necessary - is not going to get anyone better off in the long term. If keeping money in the bank is akin to letting your children starve, inflation is akin to feeding them nothing but sweets. They still starve. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for the Government handing out colourful pieces of plastic with numbers printed on it to the unemployed and other needy people, just not to corporations who have failed in their ability to price risk and show no signs of being able to do better on the public teat. However, if we go deeply into deficit and the government is not spending on anything that produces income then the distracting artwork on the dollars handed out will be the unemployeds only consolation, because the purchasing value of those dollars is going to decline sharply.</p>
<p>I guess it depends on the deflation vs inflation argument, but printing money which goes on unfinanced consumption - however necessary - is not going to get anyone better off in the long term. If keeping money in the bank is akin to letting your children starve, inflation is akin to feeding them nothing but sweets. They still starve. </p>
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		<title>By: Simon Black</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/21/a-deficit-might-be-the-most-decisive-thing/#comment-18038</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Black</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-18038</guid>
		<description>What a hypocrite, first you attack the Liberals for claiming that they can control the economy, then you go about blindly defending the Labor government for its &#039;stimulus&#039; to pump-prime the economy out of recession.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This is absolute nonsense, we don&#039;t need to go into deficit, and we certainly don&#039;t need meddling politicians to spend our government into debt so that our grandchildren will be paying it off. Why should the taxpayer be bailing out zombie industries like the car industry or banking or even childcare providers ?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Government spending is always badly targetted, the only form of economic stimulus that goes towards productive investment is a tax cut, where people&#039;s stolen property is returned to their rightful owners. It encourages people to work harder because they are rewarded for their labor.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Instead our government opts for corporate welfare.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And another solution - we should shut down the RBA who helped fuel the biggest credit bubble in this country&#039;s history. Bring about sound money, with no fractional reserve, redemption of specie payments and no lender of last resort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a hypocrite, first you attack the Liberals for claiming that they can control the economy, then you go about blindly defending the Labor government for its &#8216;stimulus&#8217; to pump-prime the economy out of recession.</p>
<p>This is absolute nonsense, we don&#8217;t need to go into deficit, and we certainly don&#8217;t need meddling politicians to spend our government into debt so that our grandchildren will be paying it off. Why should the taxpayer be bailing out zombie industries like the car industry or banking or even childcare providers ?</p>
<p>Government spending is always badly targetted, the only form of economic stimulus that goes towards productive investment is a tax cut, where people&#8217;s stolen property is returned to their rightful owners. It encourages people to work harder because they are rewarded for their labor.</p>
<p>Instead our government opts for corporate welfare.</p>
<p>And another solution - we should shut down the RBA who helped fuel the biggest credit bubble in this country&#8217;s history. Bring about sound money, with no fractional reserve, redemption of specie payments and no lender of last resort.</p>
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