Comments on: NT classrooms limit indigenous languages to 1 hour a day

By: Judith Conway

Judith Conway — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Stupid rules just invite you to break them. Insist on seeing the proof that the new way is better, and only change if you are convinced by evidence.

By: graham dunton

graham dunton — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

at last some sanity, it is the childrens future people are concerned about. demographicly english or a form of english is the most spoken language. without a comprehensive understanding, there is little chance of these Australian children fulfilling their true potential.

By: GraemeL

GraemeL — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

A factor that needs to be entered into this debate is that Marion Scrymgour is herself an indigenous lady, and one should be able to assume she knows something about the business of educating her people's progeny. Not that she has shown any such knowledge in her actions ever since she came into this critical portfolio.

Instead, she unceremoniously dumped her very qualified Dept head, on the pretext that the Dept head was to blame for the poor outcomes over decades in indigenous education.

The main issues in this discussion are that the children must first be encouraged to come to school, so that competent teachers then have a chance of giving them some degree of education. If the competence/ability of the teacher who has been recruited by this Minister's Dept to be in that school allows for teaching in English or their local dialect or for that matter Swahili, that surely is better than the child having no opportunity to learn - as has been the case all too often in recent years.

If the people at Areyonga have the skills, application and determination to teach in whatever manner is assessed to have sufficient quality to bring the children ahead, this Minister should pull her head in and support that school with resources and understanding, instead of the nonsensical stupid determination she has issued.

Let's first make the schoolroom a place where the children want to be. Then there is a chance for a learning experience that so many of these children are not accessing at present.

By: liv

liv — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I agree with Lia.

I have been working in an aboriginal school where english is second language and there is no first language programme

kids can't speak english well
entire community express strong resentment to the mainstream culture and particularly HATE the school
and generally kids do not come to school much BECAUSE when they did come to school they were shouted at belittled and patronised by ignorant teachers who really thought they were the heroes in doing the 'hard work" of civilizing the natives. Kids were literally LOCKED OUT LOCKED OUT of classrooms as a strategy for 'behaviour management'. I think the kids were normal kids. Other staff who had taught NOWHERE else think kids are especially difficult in terms of behaviour - not so. the kids are normal gorgeous kids- hearts of gold and infinite potential that gets killed at school. LET INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES LIVE- LISTEN TO PARENTS

By: mike smith

mike smith — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Isn’t there some research that says that the language/s you learn when very young are the ones that will be spoken better? Let’s look at the entire day, and the languages the kids are exposed to over that day. School, 4 hours of English, 8-10 hours of sleep (??) that leaves about 10-12 hours exposure to indigenous language, both at school and home. Sounds reasonable. Banging on about paternalism isn’t really helping.

By: Grace

Grace — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

It would be preferable if the people writing comments actually read the article rather than reaching for their ideological guns.

As Samanti de Silva writes "However, out of about 60 remote schools only nine are bilingual. And yet results across all the remote schools are below that of their mainstream counterparts. In fact, the bilingual schools have marginally better results in English than the English-only remote schools."

It is about time that the Government implemented evidence-based policy. Good luck Areyonga

By: brian

brian — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

If the Areyonga community want their children to first learn their own language & then gradually move to english why not! It is good to see the parents supporting the school in teaching the children. They are in the minority with billingual schools with only 9 in the NT and the results as regards english are equal to if not better than the english only schools. You learn from your parents so is it not better to learn at an early age in your parents language & then move to a more difficult but more widely spoken language. Lets give the community a fair go and not tell them how to teach their children & maybe lose the parents support. Too many white children have parents who do not take an interest and then the courts, police & social welfare system has to pick up the pieces. Why should public servants impose their views on this community withour proper consultation just because something else worked elsewhere it may not be suitable for Areyonga. Make the programme suit the requirements of the people it is supposed to help as one size does not fit all .

By: Ruth Davies

Ruth Davies — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

In the early days of the last century, my Welsh grandfather and his fellow students were caned if they dared to speak Welsh on school grounds. The English were determined that all children in the UK would speak English. Welsh was called a dead language. Note that today there is a full television station that broadcasts in Welsh only, and many thousands of Welsh speakers. Language is an important element of cultural identity. Every language says something different about the world. We should be celebrating our diversity of indigenous languages and encouraging their use in schools.
It is disheartening to see the same arguments of a century ago being used to justify cultural imperialism and disdain for other cultures. The peoples of the Northern Territory will lose far more from losing their language than they could ever gain from speaking English only.

By: lia

lia — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

This stinks of White Australia Policy when children of Italian and Greek backgrounds were forbidden to speak their home language at school and their families advised by “experts” to use only English at home to help them “assimilate”.
Samanti de Silva and the Areyonga community in the NT have every right to be alarmed. Had the same warning bells rung in the 1970s and 80s, children of ethnic minorities would have a better level of English today.
For every well-intentioned person who believes that less aboriginal (or any other) language equates to better English, there is a tonne of research that proves beyond doubt that well-structured, formal bilingual teaching improves English literacy (as it does maths and all other types of language “codes”). I have personal and professional experience of bilingualism and in every instance can attest that having a student’s home language and culture valued at school are paramount to the upbringing of balanced, bicultural children who grow up to be not only more nimble in their thinking but also more tolerant of society as a whole.
This retrogade attempt at assimilation sends only one message to aboriginal children - your culture does not matter. That was hardly the intention of reconcilliation.

By: J.

J. — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Article 14 of the The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples states that;

1. Indigenous peoples have the right to establish and control their educational systems and institutions providing education in their own languages, in a manner appropriate to their cultural methods of teaching and learning.

2. Indigenous individuals, particularly children, have the right to all levels and forms of education of the state without discrimination.

3. States shall, in conjunction with indigenous peoples, take effective measures, in order for indigenous individuals, particularly children, including those living outside their communities, to have access, when possible to an education in their own culture and provided in their own language.

What is happening in the NT would be considered a violation of the Areyonga's Human Rights and could be considered linguistic genocide. Unfortunately, Australia is one of four countries (New Zealand, Canada, USA and Australia) that voted against the declaration.

By: gary

gary — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Is there a quote somewhere that adds “culture and tradition” to “patriotism” as the “last resort of the scoundrel?” Aboriginal culture ceased to exist in the form it had maintained for centuries at that point where aborigines stopped being nomads and settled into townships, wrongly described as communities. In any other context they would be called ghettos.
I have spent time, in differing roles, in many of these places. The way forward is through integration, not isolation. If you want an example go to Boullia, a fully integrated and beautifully succesful town. Then go on to nearby (nearby in far west Queensland terms at least) Urandangi, an aboriginal “community”.
The world changes. Get on with it.

By: Gerry Costigan

Gerry Costigan — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I have experience pertinent to this discussion.

Firstly, in the 1960s and 70s, I worked in inner city Melbourne where a large number of our school children were either born in Greece or born in Australia with Greek speaking parents. At our schools it was clear that these young people were growing up illiterate in two languages. They were not able to communicate well with their Greek speaking parents. Nor were they able to communicate well with Aussie speaking teachers, fellow students or the general public.

We ran some courses in Greek language and culture. They were wonderfully successful. Whatever theories educationalists have about "transfer" of language skills, the Greek students gained greatly not only in understanding their own language and culture but also in understanding the Aussie language and culture. Hence, they could communicate well with their own parents and family; and they could communicate well (or better) with their Aussie teachers and playground peers.

Later, I lived in Alice Springs. It is a meeting place for at least four different aboriginal cultural groups. Many young people I knew could speak (but were not literate in) three or for aboriginal languages, as well as in Aussie talk which I do not like to describe as "English".

I am confident to state that as they became more literate or fluent in the languages their families spoke, they also became more literate and fluent in the Aussie language.

Gerry Costigan
East Perth

By: LF

LF — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

People need to stop basing their decisions on gut feelings and look at the research and the evidence (eg read Gerry Costigan's comment).

Bilingual education does not mean poorer English - in fact, the opposite is true. That is what this article is saying, teaching children in their first language helps them to learn English.

Only 9 indigenous schools are bilingual, all the others teach English only, and the results in those schools are worse than in the bilingual schools. Doesn't that tell you something? Several people have left comments saying that indigenous kids need to learn English - bilingual education is designed to HELP children to learn English better.

PS Marion Scrymgour is indigenous, but she doesn't speak an indigenous language. She grew up in Darwin. She is an urban indigenous person and can not be compared with ESL remote children.

By: Maree Whitton

Maree Whitton — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Samanti de Silva, For the sake of the future of Indigenous children they most certainly need to be taught in English. It is a backward step to be teaching in any other langauge.
It seems to me that teaching in bilingual languages would hinder education standards and would continue to keep the children behind mainstream education. The mere fact that we still have indigenous people unable to speak English in this day and age is a disgrace to Australia. By all means local Indigenous languages have a very important role to play and should be taught in the schools and should never be allowed to die, but for the good of the children English should be taught with the help and in consultation with the local indigenous people. This is no time to keep children locked away in segregated communities. By all means teach them about their cultural heritage including their languages but educate them so they can work in the wider world for their communities, and this in turn willhelp their communties. Only with proper education can indigenous children move forward.
I don’t think Indigenous childrens’ future be put any further at risk, they should be educated to the very best of our ability.

By: jon

jon — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

This is a very worrying development that seems to totally ignore local valuations of language maintenance and the role that bilingual education can play in improving educational outcomes, as demonstrated in New Zealand with Maori language preschool centres. The bottom line is that if there is evidence that bilingual schools outperform other schools then sound public policy should see more bilingual schools, not fewer, as Samanti de Silva cogently argues. Also real choice for people living on country will require competencies in both local and english languages. I see parallells here with the proposed abolition of the CDEP scheme. All the evidence shows that CDEP participation is better than work for the dole in terms of hours worked, additional income generated, community development and enterprise development. So the government’s response in the face of such evidence is to propose turning CDEP workers into welfare recipients (growing the employment gap!) while promising to convert some CDEP positions into so-called proper jobs without flexibility and community accountability. There is also emerging evidence that people living at outstations have more peaceful and healthy lifestyles and that if eductational services are delivered then attendance and performance can be high. It is worrying that again there are moves afoot to further marginalise outstation residents who fall into a gap between outstation resource agencies (that are generally CDEP organisations facing restructure into employment contractors for the state) and large shires that are not resourced or qualified to provide services to remote outstations. The notion of evidence base policy making is sounding more and more like rhetoric and less and less like reality. There is an urgent need for community engagement in decision making that affects Indigenous people’s lives and livelihoods. I wish the Areyonga community the best in their struggle to retain the bilingual program at their school.

By: Christine

Christine — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

When will government ministers realise that this type of paternalistic approach doesn’t work when it comes to Indigenous affairs - or anything else for that matter. Why does someone who clearly has no understanding of these communities, their values and their strengths, get to make decisions with absolutely no consultation with, or consideration of, the people who will be affected most?

By: Rachel

Rachel — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

On the other hand, Christine, children who cannot speak or read English are at a huge disadvantage in later life, and basically isolated from the wider community. All too often we see indigenous people interviewed on television who can barely speak English. If their language at home is not English, then it has to be given more weight at school so they can become truly bilingual.

By: Grace

Grace — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

By: Melissa

Melissa — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I have just read both this article and some of the comments that have been posted below and must say that I am disgusted at the responses of some people who have spoken against bilingual education programs with obviously no knowledge or experience as to how these programs operate. I am fortunate to have recently completed 7 weeks of practicum for my teaching degree in a bilingual school. Having always been a supporter of bilingual education I was excited to be going into such an environment and upon completing this practicum now realise just how little I understood of bilingual education prior to entering the school. I went into the community speaking little of the indigenous language and therefore found it very hard to communicate, relying heavily on translations from those who spoke both english and the native language. This gave me huge insight into what it must be like for students who don’t speak English who are then immersed in English only classrooms, it results in total lack of comprehension for such children. Furthermore I learnt many indigenous students learn differently to those in Western cultures, for example they don’t like to ‘have-a-go’ until they are certain they can produce a correct response. Immersing such students in English only programs will result in students becomming more withdrawn, participating less and lower attendance rates.

I agree low literacy levels is a huge issue in Indigenous communities and something that needs to be dealt with. However it would be better to look at attendance rates, in my class there were over 50 students enrolled with anywhere between 7 and 35 attending. Rather than destroying bilingual programs that have developed of many years why don’t we use money and resources to increase attendance rates. I am certain that this would result in higher literacy rates in older populations. Finally I ask that before making comments on this issue people seek out experiences to become informed of the realities involved.

By: Sally

Sally — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Aboriginal people did not traditionally read and write Pitjantjara nor teach it in schools - it was an oral language which survived through everyday use. The written form of indigenous languages is an invention of white linguists who have falsely sold it to indigenous elders as a way of allowing their languages to survive the ravages of globalisation and colonisation. Despearte to maintain thier culture and traditions, elders have grasped onto bilingual education as the answer. It is not. You can quote as much research from New Zealand and Canada as you like, but in Australia, the present generation of young indigenous Australians have a poorer level of English language literacy than their parents and grandparents who were taught exclusively in English. Without strong English language literacy, young people’s choices are dramatically reduced. Marian Scrymgour as a proficient speaker of both an indigenous langauge and English knows this. She also knows that Aboriginal families are the place for children to learn thier indigenous culture and that white linguists and teachers should concentrate on providing a solid grounding in the world’s power language: English.