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	<title>Comments on: An optimist&#8217;s response to Professor Keen</title>
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	<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/13/an-optimists-response-to-professor-keen/</link>
	<description>now with extra source</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/13/an-optimists-response-to-professor-keen/#comment-12598</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12598</guid>
		<description>Well I guess no-one likes to be criticised. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;My reading of Prof Keens article is that he is pointing out the absurdity of Bettellino claiming the Australian market had peaked in 2003 when, in fact, it has increased 27% since then. It therefore follows that we can&#039;t be three years ahead of the US, whatever that means, and are presumably &#039;pre-crash&#039; rather than &#039;post-crash&#039; as Batellino hopes. The recent dip in prices might, therefore, be a shape of things to come.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Your view that the &#039;hottest&#039; point of the market is when prices are increasing fastest is not a figure Keen appears to have used. However it clearly does not pick the peak in prices, which is what is being discussed here, since prices increased fastest from a low base in the early part of the boom according to the figures you have provided. At your &#039;hottest&#039; point in 2003, median prices in Canberra were $145 000 lower than they are right now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for rental yields, well no they have no kept pace with prices. Unfortunately I can&#039;t post graphs here, but the average rental yeild across 6 capitals was actually at a high of 8-9% in the late 80s. It dropped from about 5% in 2000 to below 3% in 2003 and has only gradually recovered to its dizzying heights of a few points below cash. It has, until the recent crash, always yielded less in rent than earnt by shares over this time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The point, which I really do understand, is that current house prices represent at least an opportunity cost of 1.5% gross yeild on cash. Since people don&#039;t invest to lose money, until prices increase or rents increase substantially then property is over-valued as an investment vehicle. Since many think rents or prices can&#039;t increase much, that leaves the option of house prices dropping until the yeilds justify the price (at least for investors). &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I guess no-one likes to be criticised. </p>
<p>My reading of Prof Keens article is that he is pointing out the absurdity of Bettellino claiming the Australian market had peaked in 2003 when, in fact, it has increased 27% since then. It therefore follows that we can&#8217;t be three years ahead of the US, whatever that means, and are presumably &#8216;pre-crash&#8217; rather than &#8216;post-crash&#8217; as Batellino hopes. The recent dip in prices might, therefore, be a shape of things to come.</p>
<p>Your view that the &#8216;hottest&#8217; point of the market is when prices are increasing fastest is not a figure Keen appears to have used. However it clearly does not pick the peak in prices, which is what is being discussed here, since prices increased fastest from a low base in the early part of the boom according to the figures you have provided. At your &#8216;hottest&#8217; point in 2003, median prices in Canberra were $145 000 lower than they are right now.</p>
<p>As for rental yields, well no they have no kept pace with prices. Unfortunately I can&#8217;t post graphs here, but the average rental yeild across 6 capitals was actually at a high of 8-9% in the late 80s. It dropped from about 5% in 2000 to below 3% in 2003 and has only gradually recovered to its dizzying heights of a few points below cash. It has, until the recent crash, always yielded less in rent than earnt by shares over this time.</p>
<p>The point, which I really do understand, is that current house prices represent at least an opportunity cost of 1.5% gross yeild on cash. Since people don&#8217;t invest to lose money, until prices increase or rents increase substantially then property is over-valued as an investment vehicle. Since many think rents or prices can&#8217;t increase much, that leaves the option of house prices dropping until the yeilds justify the price (at least for investors). </p>
<p></p>
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		<title>By: Peter Johns</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/13/an-optimists-response-to-professor-keen/#comment-12599</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Johns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12599</guid>
		<description>The point was rental yields havn&#039;t decreased dramatically, if at all, despite the increase in house prices (ie rent prices have kept pace). If houses were dramatically overpriced, just like when a stock is overpriced, the yield would fall away. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So the whole article is a &#039;furphy&#039; because you disagree with one of 5-6 points made? (of which you failed to understand the significance anyway).Ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point was rental yields havn&#8217;t decreased dramatically, if at all, despite the increase in house prices (ie rent prices have kept pace). If houses were dramatically overpriced, just like when a stock is overpriced, the yield would fall away. </p>
<p>So the whole article is a &#8216;furphy&#8217; because you disagree with one of 5-6 points made? (of which you failed to understand the significance anyway).Ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: Merri</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/13/an-optimists-response-to-professor-keen/#comment-12600</link>
		<dc:creator>Merri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12600</guid>
		<description>Sorry Mr Johns, but rents have not kept pace. Rents have tracked CPI for a good many years, and have not grown above 10% YoY at any time in the past decade. For the same period (June 2002 - June 2008) house prices have increased by 64% over the course of a decade, while rents have increased by 25%. And this takes into account the advent in recent years of &#039;rents through the roof&#039;! So you are wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are also massive deviations from other fundamentals, such as price in terms of household income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Mr Johns, but rents have not kept pace. Rents have tracked CPI for a good many years, and have not grown above 10% YoY at any time in the past decade. For the same period (June 2002 - June 2008) house prices have increased by 64% over the course of a decade, while rents have increased by 25%. And this takes into account the advent in recent years of &#8216;rents through the roof&#8217;! So you are wrong.</p>
<p>There are also massive deviations from other fundamentals, such as price in terms of household income.</p>
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		<title>By: Merri</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/13/an-optimists-response-to-professor-keen/#comment-12601</link>
		<dc:creator>Merri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12601</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, but rent yields don&#039;t remain strong at all. What a complete furphy this article is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but rent yields don&#8217;t remain strong at all. What a complete furphy this article is.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/13/an-optimists-response-to-professor-keen/#comment-12602</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-12602</guid>
		<description>Rental yeilds in my area are, at best, 6% gross - allowing for no expenditure on maintainance or rates and assuming 100% occupancy. Cash is running at over 7% in bank deposits. Being below the no-risk return is not a good support for the price of an investment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rental yeilds in my area are, at best, 6% gross - allowing for no expenditure on maintainance or rates and assuming 100% occupancy. Cash is running at over 7% in bank deposits. Being below the no-risk return is not a good support for the price of an investment.</p>
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