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	<title>Comments on: Sounding the alarm on the legal takeover of mental health</title>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/11/sounding-the-alarm-on-the-legal-takeover-of-mental-health/#comment-15664</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Psychiatric conditions, or &quot;mental illnesses&quot; are a grab-bag of phenomena covering everything from anxiety to dementia. The extent to which these are &quot;illnesses&quot; varies, in the accepted sense of physically-identifiable pathology. Mostly they are diagnosed by means of difficulties or disagreeable deviations in behaviour or experience that are distressing to either the patient and/or to their family and community. Many mental illnesses have social / environmental contributing causes. Most have profound social consequences. In many cases  behavioral deviations are so maladaptive as to call into question the sufferer&#039;s ability to manage their own affairs while ill. If no effective intervention occurs to arrest the negative social and potentially legal consequences of this incompetency, these will feed back and likely exacerbate the original condition, resulting in a spiral of loss of control. The better the sufferer&#039;s social supports (family, community) the more likely a good outcome. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So it seems to me that these authors&#039; objection to &quot;a legal and community perspective intervening in clinical decision making&quot; is actually what is frequently required as a rational strategy of amelioration. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;They also object that &quot;even the most reckless or indifferent intravenous drug user or alcohol dependent person does not face such state paternalism, or violation of civil rights.&quot;  My response to this is that perhaps it would be better if they did. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I agree that this is a profound issue with major consequences for medicine and the law. But psychiatric conditions are not, and so cannot be treated as, entirely medical in the traditional sense of a disease process confined within the body of a person. In fact this old medical model is breaking down in other areas as well, such as chronic diseases in general where there is increasing recognition of the interaction between bodily disease and behaviour (eg smoking). These also raise issues of &quot;individual freedom&quot; in the context of public health measures such as anti-smoking legislation. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All illness is a matter for the community in terms of health care and loss of contribution. So just as the recent financial meltdown has illustrated for the field of economics, so in the field of health there is balance to be found between freedom and state regulation. There is little freedom to be had either in financial poverty, or in debilitating illness and death.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psychiatric conditions, or &#8220;mental illnesses&#8221; are a grab-bag of phenomena covering everything from anxiety to dementia. The extent to which these are &#8220;illnesses&#8221; varies, in the accepted sense of physically-identifiable pathology. Mostly they are diagnosed by means of difficulties or disagreeable deviations in behaviour or experience that are distressing to either the patient and/or to their family and community. Many mental illnesses have social / environmental contributing causes. Most have profound social consequences. In many cases  behavioral deviations are so maladaptive as to call into question the sufferer&#8217;s ability to manage their own affairs while ill. If no effective intervention occurs to arrest the negative social and potentially legal consequences of this incompetency, these will feed back and likely exacerbate the original condition, resulting in a spiral of loss of control. The better the sufferer&#8217;s social supports (family, community) the more likely a good outcome. </p>
<p>So it seems to me that these authors&#8217; objection to &#8220;a legal and community perspective intervening in clinical decision making&#8221; is actually what is frequently required as a rational strategy of amelioration. </p>
<p>They also object that &#8220;even the most reckless or indifferent intravenous drug user or alcohol dependent person does not face such state paternalism, or violation of civil rights.&#8221;  My response to this is that perhaps it would be better if they did. </p>
<p>I agree that this is a profound issue with major consequences for medicine and the law. But psychiatric conditions are not, and so cannot be treated as, entirely medical in the traditional sense of a disease process confined within the body of a person. In fact this old medical model is breaking down in other areas as well, such as chronic diseases in general where there is increasing recognition of the interaction between bodily disease and behaviour (eg smoking). These also raise issues of &#8220;individual freedom&#8221; in the context of public health measures such as anti-smoking legislation. </p>
<p>All illness is a matter for the community in terms of health care and loss of contribution. So just as the recent financial meltdown has illustrated for the field of economics, so in the field of health there is balance to be found between freedom and state regulation. There is little freedom to be had either in financial poverty, or in debilitating illness and death.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/11/sounding-the-alarm-on-the-legal-takeover-of-mental-health/#comment-15665</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-15665</guid>
		<description>Tribunal members stipulating the minutiae of treatment orders, and community oversight of ECT are two separate matters and it seems disingenuous to conflate them in this way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There are &quot;emergency&quot; provisions in certain states whereby the doctor can order ECT if in their judgment the patient is &quot;at risk&quot;. I am aware of cases where patients, having been involuntarily committed following a manic episode, are subjected to ECT without consent, despite presenting no physical danger to anyone, including themselves.  This is particularly the case with bipolar patients who refuse to acknowledge their illness and are dismissive towards treatment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m surprised by the authors&#039; assertion that:  &quot;There are many, far more perilous interventions in medicine which are not routinely constrained by the opinions of lawyers or members of the community.&quot; Let&#039;s be clear: we are talking about restraining the patient, placing them under anaesthetic and inducing seizures by passing electric current through the brain. Can the authors offer examples of &quot;more perilous interventions&quot; which can, legally, be forcibly carried out on non-consenting patients?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Treatment of non-consenting individuals requires the highest level of oversight. To imply that this equates to paternalism is fatuous, and even hints at some other agenda. ECT, like DST, lobotomy and trepanation before it, is barbaric pseudo-medicine that should be consigned to the pages of some macabre journal of medieval quackery.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tribunal members stipulating the minutiae of treatment orders, and community oversight of ECT are two separate matters and it seems disingenuous to conflate them in this way.</p>
<p>There are &#8220;emergency&#8221; provisions in certain states whereby the doctor can order ECT if in their judgment the patient is &#8220;at risk&#8221;. I am aware of cases where patients, having been involuntarily committed following a manic episode, are subjected to ECT without consent, despite presenting no physical danger to anyone, including themselves.  This is particularly the case with bipolar patients who refuse to acknowledge their illness and are dismissive towards treatment.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised by the authors&#8217; assertion that:  &#8220;There are many, far more perilous interventions in medicine which are not routinely constrained by the opinions of lawyers or members of the community.&#8221; Let&#8217;s be clear: we are talking about restraining the patient, placing them under anaesthetic and inducing seizures by passing electric current through the brain. Can the authors offer examples of &#8220;more perilous interventions&#8221; which can, legally, be forcibly carried out on non-consenting patients?</p>
<p>Treatment of non-consenting individuals requires the highest level of oversight. To imply that this equates to paternalism is fatuous, and even hints at some other agenda. ECT, like DST, lobotomy and trepanation before it, is barbaric pseudo-medicine that should be consigned to the pages of some macabre journal of medieval quackery.</p>
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		<title>By: beverley</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/11/sounding-the-alarm-on-the-legal-takeover-of-mental-health/#comment-15666</link>
		<dc:creator>beverley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-15666</guid>
		<description>My  dear friends just because people call you mentally ill, do not feel that it the end have a loving fighting spirit and believe in yourself and get out in society, if you can find a job great, or do something to share with others, you may need counseling or have friends that make you feel great and then you will sleep well if you love &lt;br /&gt;yourself and go to bed in a happy mood you may sleep well , and perhaps meditation may help. but do not give up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My  dear friends just because people call you mentally ill, do not feel that it the end have a loving fighting spirit and believe in yourself and get out in society, if you can find a job great, or do something to share with others, you may need counseling or have friends that make you feel great and then you will sleep well if you love <br />yourself and go to bed in a happy mood you may sleep well , and perhaps meditation may help. but do not give up.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/11/sounding-the-alarm-on-the-legal-takeover-of-mental-health/#comment-15667</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-15667</guid>
		<description>test</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>test</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/11/11/sounding-the-alarm-on-the-legal-takeover-of-mental-health/#comment-15668</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-15668</guid>
		<description>God help us if the attitudes to ECT put forward in this article represent the University of Sydney&#039;s Values and Ethics! Anyone who has investigated the use of this &#039;therapy&#039; and its abuse, would fully understand why the psychiatric profession is not trusted to be the sole determiner of its administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God help us if the attitudes to ECT put forward in this article represent the University of Sydney&#8217;s Values and Ethics! Anyone who has investigated the use of this &#8216;therapy&#8217; and its abuse, would fully understand why the psychiatric profession is not trusted to be the sole determiner of its administration.</p>
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