Comments on: CASA Qantas audit supressed … QF30 ricochet revealed http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 08:54:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ben@crikey http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24132 Ben@crikey Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24132 Scott, I'm the Sydney Morning Herald's last full time shipping cadet (1960-61). Not very bright, just a stubborn old hack with a strong dislike of the mongrel lying bastardry that passes for corporate and public sector communications. <br /><br />Who are you? Scott, I’m the Sydney Morning Herald’s last full time shipping cadet (1960-61). Not very bright, just a stubborn old hack with a strong dislike of the mongrel lying bastardry that passes for corporate and public sector communications.

Who are you?

]]> By: Alex Romanoff http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24133 Alex Romanoff Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24133 Actually the boys at "Mythbusters", bless their hearts, have done a show testing exactly this question, namely, whether knocking the valve off a cylinder of compressed gas can produce a stream of excaping gas of sufficient force to make that cylinder take off like a rocket. After their usual fabrications to break off the valve assembly and a channel to guide the cylinder, they succeeded in punching a hole through a cement block wall. So it is entirely plausible, though the cylinder didn't "explode", somehow the valve broke off. The question is the how? Actually the boys at “Mythbusters”, bless their hearts, have done a show testing exactly this question, namely, whether knocking the valve off a cylinder of compressed gas can produce a stream of excaping gas of sufficient force to make that cylinder take off like a rocket. After their usual fabrications to break off the valve assembly and a channel to guide the cylinder, they succeeded in punching a hole through a cement block wall. So it is entirely plausible, though the cylinder didn’t “explode”, somehow the valve broke off. The question is the how?

]]> By: Ned http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24134 Ned Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24134 Gibson says 'its just like any other audit report'. <br /><br />Except 'It is understood Qantas will now assist CASA in refining the content and style of a mutually agreed final version of the audit,' if this is true (can this be substantiated Ben) where else do here of the auditee finalising the audit report? Would the ACCC or ATSB allow this? Has anybody else who has been audited by CASA been involved in finalising the report? Maybe someone should check the regulations. <br /><br /> Gibson says ‘its just like any other audit report’.

Except ‘It is understood Qantas will now assist CASA in refining the content and style of a mutually agreed final version of the audit,’ if this is true (can this be substantiated Ben) where else do here of the auditee finalising the audit report? Would the ACCC or ATSB allow this? Has anybody else who has been audited by CASA been involved in finalising the report? Maybe someone should check the regulations.

]]> By: Scott http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24135 Scott Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24135 Who is Ben Sandilands? With so much to say on the airline industry I'd be guessing you're an ex airline pilot? Maybe a former air traffic controller? Airline management? I'm interested in learning where your expertise and knowledge about our industry comes from. Who is Ben Sandilands? With so much to say on the airline industry I’d be guessing you’re an ex airline pilot? Maybe a former air traffic controller? Airline management? I’m interested in learning where your expertise and knowledge about our industry comes from.

]]> By: Chris http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24136 Chris Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24136 Have a read of the report. It looks like the valve didn't fail, but rather the whole bottom of the cylinder detached. There is a pretty clear diagram in Appendix D. Basically the bottom pops off and out of the aircraft, the rest goes up through the floor, valve breaks off hitting the door and flips the cylinder up so that the sharp edge cores a hole in the roof. The spent "rocket" falls back to the floor and out of the aircraft.<br /><br />One very interesting detail not commented on though is that four bottles were replaced in January, and the most recent two in June. It was one of these two most recently replaced cylinders which failed. Tracing the history of those would be pretty interesting. It certainly is an unusual failure mode I've never heard of. Have a read of the report. It looks like the valve didn’t fail, but rather the whole bottom of the cylinder detached. There is a pretty clear diagram in Appendix D. Basically the bottom pops off and out of the aircraft, the rest goes up through the floor, valve breaks off hitting the door and flips the cylinder up so that the sharp edge cores a hole in the roof. The spent “rocket” falls back to the floor and out of the aircraft.

One very interesting detail not commented on though is that four bottles were replaced in January, and the most recent two in June. It was one of these two most recently replaced cylinders which failed. Tracing the history of those would be pretty interesting. It certainly is an unusual failure mode I’ve never heard of.

]]> By: David http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24137 David Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24137 As one who has dropped a CIG Oxy bottle with frightening results. I believe that from the description of the QF30 incident it is almost certain that the valve broke off the top thus converting the bottle into a jet propelled projectile. If the bottle had exploded it would have ruptured along its length releasing an enormous amount of energy in an instant. I doubt the survival of the aircraft after such an explosion.<br />Sydney Tech used to have a ruptured Oxy bottle displayed at Ultimo. As one who has dropped a CIG Oxy bottle with frightening results. I believe that from the description of the QF30 incident it is almost certain that the valve broke off the top thus converting the bottle into a jet propelled projectile. If the bottle had exploded it would have ruptured along its length releasing an enormous amount of energy in an instant. I doubt the survival of the aircraft after such an explosion.
Sydney Tech used to have a ruptured Oxy bottle displayed at Ultimo.

]]> By: rjg http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24138 rjg Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24138 Comercial In Confidence! What bloody garbage. Quantas like all of the other Governent assets were sold using the spin of making them accountable to the market place. The market must be fully informed we were all told. That "couldn't" happen under Government control. What constitutes the market for airlines?Why the passengers of course. Don't they need to be fully informed of what they are buying particularly when their lives are at stake. Does anybody remember the "diversion" of the Latrobe river into Yallourn mine earlier this year by Tru Energy and their contractors. That little gem is also subject to a number of Government reports. I bet none of those will ever see the light of day either. They will of course be "commercial in confidence." Comercial In Confidence! What bloody garbage. Quantas like all of the other Governent assets were sold using the spin of making them accountable to the market place. The market must be fully informed we were all told. That “couldn’t” happen under Government control. What constitutes the market for airlines?Why the passengers of course. Don’t they need to be fully informed of what they are buying particularly when their lives are at stake. Does anybody remember the “diversion” of the Latrobe river into Yallourn mine earlier this year by Tru Energy and their contractors. That little gem is also subject to a number of Government reports. I bet none of those will ever see the light of day either. They will of course be “commercial in confidence.”

]]> By: Dacquiri http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24139 Dacquiri Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24139 "...unless immense political pressure is placed on the government to release it in its entirety." Well, yes, exactly. One would hope that, as members of the flying public, our elected representatives can be counted upon to exercise their own political pressure. But, more realistically, what can the rest of us do? It will probably be the usual case of the media having to raise a stink and trying to embarrass the Government into releasing the report. The fact that Governments seem to have been strengthening their deflector shields looks like making that all the more difficult. “…unless immense political pressure is placed on the government to release it in its entirety.” Well, yes, exactly. One would hope that, as members of the flying public, our elected representatives can be counted upon to exercise their own political pressure. But, more realistically, what can the rest of us do? It will probably be the usual case of the media having to raise a stink and trying to embarrass the Government into releasing the report. The fact that Governments seem to have been strengthening their deflector shields looks like making that all the more difficult.

]]> By: Scott http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24140 Scott Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24140 My request for your background information wasn’t hostile. Your vague response makes me think perhaps you got the wrong impression. I was merely trying to work out whether you’re an ‘outsider looking in’ when it comes to the aviation industry. Perhaps you’re the old man I see parked at the end of the runway taking photos of aircraft and listening to the tower frequency on his scanner. Or maybe you’ve got decades of experience working for aviation businesses and your opinions are based on your personal experiences, frustrations, and knowledge of the internal inadequacies within our industry.<br /><br />I hope you will keep the following in mind when next you put pen to paper… As a journalist dedicated to reporting on the aviation industry you have an ethical obligation to report the facts free from exaggeration or personal grudge. Remember it’s not simply the lay man with a fear of flying that reads your articles. If you want your name to be held in high regard in the circles of your aviation peers then think twice before sensationalising or omitting facts that would otherwise make a minor technical issue appear to be a serious incident. <br /><br />Spread the word amongst your journalist friends.<br /><br />Who am I? Somebody proud of the company I work for and the industry I work in. Someone who would like to help stop the mindless slander and scare mongering that seems to have engulfed our media of late.<br /> My request for your background information wasn’t hostile. Your vague response makes me think perhaps you got the wrong impression. I was merely trying to work out whether you’re an ‘outsider looking in’ when it comes to the aviation industry. Perhaps you’re the old man I see parked at the end of the runway taking photos of aircraft and listening to the tower frequency on his scanner. Or maybe you’ve got decades of experience working for aviation businesses and your opinions are based on your personal experiences, frustrations, and knowledge of the internal inadequacies within our industry.

I hope you will keep the following in mind when next you put pen to paper… As a journalist dedicated to reporting on the aviation industry you have an ethical obligation to report the facts free from exaggeration or personal grudge. Remember it’s not simply the lay man with a fear of flying that reads your articles. If you want your name to be held in high regard in the circles of your aviation peers then think twice before sensationalising or omitting facts that would otherwise make a minor technical issue appear to be a serious incident.

Spread the word amongst your journalist friends.

Who am I? Somebody proud of the company I work for and the industry I work in. Someone who would like to help stop the mindless slander and scare mongering that seems to have engulfed our media of late.

]]> By: mike smith http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24141 mike smith Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24141 Navigational aides? What? People were killed? Or do you mean navigational aids? :) Navigational aides? What? People were killed? Or do you mean navigational aids? :)

]]> By: Ben@Crikey http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24142 Ben@Crikey Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24142 Scott, At the risk of boring the rest of the room rigid I don't care what people think about me. I do care about Qantas lying about the failure to complete compulsory ADs on pressure bulkheads as mere paperwork. I am deeply concerned when TIBA 'procedures' replace radar separation in our skies and so are the airlines. The bullsh*t has to stop. If you are in the air transport sector why not address your concerns about 'mindless slander' with diligent compliance with the standards and regulations? Why not insist that the air traffic control system actually control, that the aviation regulator actually regulate, and the Minister actually administer? Or would you prefer us to ignore the obvious until there is another completely avoidable Transair style accident involving a larger aircraft? Scott, At the risk of boring the rest of the room rigid I don’t care what people think about me. I do care about Qantas lying about the failure to complete compulsory ADs on pressure bulkheads as mere paperwork. I am deeply concerned when TIBA ‘procedures’ replace radar separation in our skies and so are the airlines. The bullsh*t has to stop. If you are in the air transport sector why not address your concerns about ‘mindless slander’ with diligent compliance with the standards and regulations? Why not insist that the air traffic control system actually control, that the aviation regulator actually regulate, and the Minister actually administer? Or would you prefer us to ignore the obvious until there is another completely avoidable Transair style accident involving a larger aircraft?

]]> By: Alex Romanoff http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/08/29/casa-qantas-audit-supressed-qf30-ricochet-revealed/#comment-24143 Alex Romanoff Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-24143 Actually the boys at "Mythbusters", bless their hearts, have done a show testing exactly this question, namely, whether knocking the valve off a cylinder of compressed gas can produce a stream of excaping gas of sufficient force to make that cylinder take off like a rocket. After their usual fabrications to break off the valve assembly and a channel to guide the cylinder, they succeeded in punching a hole through a cement block wall. So it is entirely plausible, though the cylinder didn't "explode", somehow the valve broke off. The question is the how? Actually the boys at “Mythbusters”, bless their hearts, have done a show testing exactly this question, namely, whether knocking the valve off a cylinder of compressed gas can produce a stream of excaping gas of sufficient force to make that cylinder take off like a rocket. After their usual fabrications to break off the valve assembly and a channel to guide the cylinder, they succeeded in punching a hole through a cement block wall. So it is entirely plausible, though the cylinder didn’t “explode”, somehow the valve broke off. The question is the how?

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