The word of God, brought to you by The Australian
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See The Weekend Australian’s special World Youth Day edition? Pages of religious propaganda – some from Catholic lesser lights like Pearson and Angela Shanahan, sure, but also from quality writers like Paul Kelly, who is apparently embedded with the Pope, and Mike Steketee. The glowing coverage continued today, with more from Kelly, Tess Livingstone offering some hagiography of George Pell and the promise of Caroline “Fight or Flirt Mechanism” Overington live-blogging on the Pope. There’s even a gallery of photos of yesterday’s touchdown, with useful captions to explain which one is Kevin Rudd and which one the Pope, and a nice shot of Pell’s backside greeting his Holiness. The Weekend Oz also offered an angry editorial about the ABC and Fairfax coverage of the event, complaining about the ABC running the Anthony Jones story (suggesting, along the way, that Jones deserved whatever sacerdotal semen ended up on him), and calling The Sydney Morning Herald “parochial” in its coverage. The alternative, presumably, is that the ABC should have kept silent, and The SMH should, rather than pointing out inconvenient facts like the handout of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars to the event, be promoting it uncritically. Just like The Australian is, as it turns out. For all its high-minded spiritual rhetoric, The Oz’s attack on the ABC and Fairfax wouldn’t have anything to do with News Ltd being a major sponsor of the event, would it? That fact isn’t disclosed anywhere in The Australian’s glowing coverage and commentary. Or perhaps, like Rex Mottram’s “spiritual rain” in Brideshead Revisited, it was disclosed, but we were too sinful to see it? Kelly recycles the propaganda from Christians that secularism equates with relativism and immorality. The Oz doesn’t like relativism when it comes with a French philosopher and cultural criticism attached, but found it useful in its campaign against the reality of global warming, where a clear scientific consensus was dismissed in favour of biased research and the rantings of cranks. And millions of Australians might be shocked to learn that their lack of religion makes them incapable of ethical judgements. But if we take Kelly’s argument at face value, let’s consider the alternative to our god-less, amoral way of living: in this case, a system of belief that is authoritarian, that deeply fears and excludes women and seeks to control their bodies, that despises homosexuality, and that is intrinsically anti-science. And that’s in its relatively tolerant 21st century incarnation. And isn’t there also an echo of “noble savage” in Christians’ oft-repeated claim – echoed by Kelly – about the growth of religion in Third World countries? That fundamentalism – whether Christian, Islamic or Hindu – is rising in countries with poor educational levels and repression of women (which all three have as central tenets), hardly seems something to boast about. But presumably it is intended to show up us jaded westerners and our existential malaise. The ABC might be full of latte-sippers and The SMH has long since abandoned its ambition of being a journal of record in favour of lifestyle frippery, but both can still fulfil the basic media functions of quality reportage and analysis. The Australian, despite its pretensions to conservative rigour, offers only reflexive bias, conflicts of interest and intellectual sloth. |
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80 Comments
In 1961 while the then Pope and his cardinals were skating around the possibility of Catholic women being allowed to use the Pill I had just had my fourth child. An economic disaster. I went to see one of the priests where we went to Mass to ask what he thought the final decision would be. He said, “My dear, I am very sorry for you, there are more Catholics in the world than Protestants and there’s only one way to keep it that way, the church will never OK the Pill.” I thanked him, got back into my car and drove to my Presbyterian GP and got the Pill. I ceased to be a Catholic on that day.
If the catholic organization doesn’t change it will become ilrelevant, if the catholic organization does change it will become ilrelevant, it has boxed it self into a corner.
Marilyn, I assume that means that you will be leaving the country as soon as possible, so that we can give it back to the people that the (as you so racistly, yet so uneloquently put it) “whining poms” stole it from.
Venise, “enjoying the s*it out of life” is a neat summation of all atheism has to offer.
Dave Liberts: ” ” If you can read this, you’re a COSMIC ACCIDENT. That’ll get the Intelligent design crowd going.” is an honest indication of your view of the matter, which is more than us atheists get from some creationists. It’s also the reason I’m an atheist.”
Dave apparently fervently ‘believes’ that there is no god because he chooses to ‘believe’ that he is a cosmic accident!.
Why “cosmic” Dave?; why not similarly meaning words like: infinite, limitless, universal, ubiquitous,vast, catholic……Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient?
Good piece in today’s SMH from Gerard Henderson on criticising the pope bashing “sneering secularists - a combination of proselytising atheists and Green Left Weekly reading leftists”:
“If you only listened to the sneering secularists you would get the impression that Catholicism is somehow responsible for high birth rates and the spread of HIV/AIDS. In fact, population growth is highest in the Middle East and sub-Sahara Africa where the Catholic Church is not strong. Likewise, there is no correlation between the spread of HIV/AIDS and the strength of Catholicism.”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/the-sorry-sport-of-pope-bashing/2008/07/14/1215887535962.html
And Henderson is an agnostic.
Sydchrome, who’s Brendan? Your Irish grandmother’s influence, no doubt! Pity you didn’t listen to her a little more. Defending the sodomites and paedophiles, mate! And all in the name of freedom.
Dave Liberts,
Wrong. Hitler is certainly NOT a catholic. Here is why.
Continued…..
If Nazism represented the culmination of anything, it was that of the nineteenth-century and early-twentieth century ideology of social Darwinism. As historian Richard Weikart documents, both Hitler and Himmler were admirers of Darwin and often spoke of their role as enacting a “law of nature” that guaranteed the “elimination of the unfit.” Weikart argues that Hitler himself “drew upon a bountiful fund of social Darwinist thought to construct his own racist philosophy” and concludes that while Darwinism is not a “sufficient” intellectual explanation for Nazism, it is a “necessary” one. Without Darwinism, there might not have been Nazism.
The Nazis also drew on the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, adapting his atheist philosophy to their crude purposes. Nietzsche’s vision of the ubermensch and his elevation of a new ethic “beyond good and evil” were avidly embraced by Nazi propagandists. Nietzsche’s “will to power” almost became a Nazi recruitment slogan. I am not for a moment suggesting that Darwin or Nietzsche would have approved of Hitler’s ideas. But Hitler and his henchmen approved of Darwin’s and Nietzsche’s ideas. Harris simply ignores the evidence of the Nazis’ sympathies for Darwin, Nietzsche, and atheism. So what sense can we make of his claim that the leading Nazis were “knowingly or unknowingly” agents of religion? Clearly, it is nonsense.
So in addition to the mountain of corpses that the God-hating regimes of Stalin, Mao, Pot Pot and others have produced, we must add the body count of the God-hating Nazi regime. The Nazis, like the Communists, deliberately targeted the churches and the believers because they wanted to create a new man and a new utopia freed from the shackles of traditional religion and traditional morality. In an earlier blog, I asked what is atheism’s contribution to civilization? One answer to that question: Genocide.
Please, will someone point out to the Oz, the Telegrump and the rest of Rupert,s propoganda sheets - not to mention the parade of fawning politicians - that this is NOT a public event. Many, many people in Australia - would you believe, the majority? - do not subscribe to this particular fantasy. Personal belief is personal belief and should be regarded as such. I do not approve of any religions, not excluding economics, and consider it highly offensive that the Prime Minister treats this as a political event and that news rags spread silly propaganda.
Dave Liberts,
Ref: Was Hitler a Christian?
by Dinesh D’Souza
I agree with much of the piece but it is important to distinguish religion from systems of magic such as astrology, as James Frazer does in the Golden bough: a study in magic and religion (1890). Systems of magic are deterministic - they hold that a specified event will certainly happen given its antecedents. In contrast religion recognises free will - that people may choose between the enlightened path and the path of darkness. For this reason, altho religion should be deprecated for causing wars, etc, it should always be preferred to systems of magic such as astrology.
Zac, you might regard Hitler as an atheist, but he didn’t. He described himself as (wait for it, it’s a beauty)….Catholic! And did the church repudiate this at the time? Your answer eagerly awaited.
JamesK, I used the word ‘random’, JJ used ‘cosmic’, I was merely quoting him. As for what I believe, I’m quite interested in the evidence that evidence of complex molecules similar to those on which life is based has been found in metorites. I’m not claiming to be ‘right’ - I’ll leave that to religion - I’m just stating that my assessment of the various probabilities of the basis of life leave ‘God’ looking like a long shot, and I’m not about to make all my judgements in life in the hands of religion based on a long shot. I acknowledge the possibility that I might wind up looking like a clown at the Pearly Gates one day, but do Christians acknowledge that they’re running the risk of looking equally stupid as Allah judges them? As for Henderson, how predictable that he’s not in favour of op-shop dressed protestors. He might be agnostic but, like most others reliant on commercial media to make their living, he knows which side his bread is buttered on when it comes to judging WYD. Far too many Catholics to risk upsetting them if it leads to a decrease in sales. Do you agree with Henderson and Pell that further overpopulating the planet is right as long as we’re upping the numbers of white Christians, JamesK? Your reference to Africa’s population is mysterious if you don’t.
Good article Bernard. You had me worried last week when you accepted the WYD’s organisers’ claim that they hadn’t asked for the ‘Thou shalt not offend’ laws without questioning why they hadn’t asked for such laws to be withdrawn, but this is very good. I agree that secular society should respect religious beliefs of all shapes and sizes (unless these same beliefs are the basis for intolerance or are discriminatory) as well as respect the rights of atheists to their view of the matter. Kelly, despite JamesK’s praise, is just doing what he always does - backfilling Rupert’s opinions with semi-intellectual arguement. Kelly’s article was not bad for what it was, but Bernard’s criticisms are very valid. Personally, my two cents on WYD is that I’m not opposed to it, nor am I opposed to the government supporting it on the basis of it generating worthwhile economic activity (and wouldn’t it be good to get the real figures to test if NSW taxpayers backed a loser here?), but I’m very opposed to the counter-productive anti-protest measures Sydney-siders will have to live with. There are some extremely sound criticisms of the effects of Catholic doctrine on a whole range of the world’s citizens which need to be made, not that you’d know this from Kelly’s article.
btw zac you conveniently overlooked the witch burnings, the inquisition the crusades eh! George W Bush told him god told him to invade iraq -stick that in your chrisitan pipe and smoke it..
I hold no brief for the organisers of Youth day but Bernard this stuff is really bad. badly argued hysterical c…p. You are usually so much better.
“Perhaps the fact that Murdoch is an RC might have something to do with the coverage”. Andrew Murdoch is anglican.
Mark virtually no German youth declined to join the hitler youth. it did not mean hardship it meant being sent to a death camp. many boys like one of my teachers went to Hitler youth in the morning mass at lunchtime. What would you have done?
John James: It’s because women like that are so effing stupid that callous men like you are able to prey on them. Anyway, I said that she shouldn’t blame the Catholics. That should have pleased you. Why aren’t you up in Sydney enjoying the Gymkhana?
Allen Brown
Quote “It really p…ses me off that the superstitious think that you have to have a belief in a big daddy in the sky in order to have a moral basis to your life. The answer is simple: self-respect. Or, as the late great humanist and author Kurt Vonnegut said, “Goddammit, you gotta be kind.” Unquote
1. Do you think it is “superstitious to believe we are here by big bang and for no purpose?
2. Do you believe it is superstitious and the Atheists look utterly foolish to believe humans were transformed from apes over a million years?
3. Isn’t superstitious and dangerous to believe we are no more special than bacteria and virus and no more special than animals?
4. You guys make assumptions to explain pre-big bang, don’t you think that is supersitious and a belief?
5. If God is not the basis of morality to a person’s life then what is?
6. What is the basis of self-respect and kindness?
7. If it is all about self-respect and kindness, why was that absent in Atheistic societies around the world? Why did the Atheist Communist states end up killing 300 + million men, women and children to create utopian Atheist societies around the world?
Atheism (it is a belief system and a religion in Australia and U.S) is the worst ideology humanity has ever seen. Mind you Karl Marx said “Communism begins where Atheism begins” Before you preach any further please confront this Atheist brutality and Atheist gulags (try China and North Korea) around the world.
May “Darwin” god bless you!
As much as I find humour in your piece Bernard, it’s discouraging to see that our society has not matured to the point where the human traits of empathy, compassion, fraternity, and love are freed from the shackles of pious morality.
I’m sure michael that Bernard will be relieved to ‘discover’ that you “thought the piece was provocative” because I am certain that the intention was that it be provocative!
In fact almost any individual of below average intelligence and above would reasonably agree that the piece was provocative.
There are 77 odd comments and most do not really respond to the article directly. For most it served as a discussion topic not at all directly related to the petty themes of the article.
I must admit to being perplexed by your opinion that it “clearly frightened those seeking immortality”.
Perhaps you have the prejudiced view that people of faith in some way unnaturally fear death or perhaps that people of faith who no longer fear death now fear silly articles by Bernard Keane?
Either proposition is clearly idiotic at best. Lastly your: “& they put a pea or two under the mattresses of those not prey for it” comment sounds frankly like the rantings of an insane person.
Joan Huggett; I am so shocked by your astonishing statement that perhaps I didn’t explain myself properly. The point I was trying to make was this. WTF were you doing talking to a priest about your reproductive system? I am appalled yet fascinated. WTF did you imagine that you should discuss anything to a priest? WTF do they know about life. They’re nothing but non-sexual drones themselves. Well, that’s when they are not bu*gering little boys.
Eric, I am not here by big bang (needs more faith to believe this foolishness) or ape to man Atheist mythology. Good boy, you wan’t to add all the wars secular government conducts for territory or resource or power on to Christians. Did you know U.S has a effective judiciary. How about adding to the list every country in the western world? This is what Atheists do when you run out of rationality. And the other trick of Atheists is to lump Islam with Christianity. You know that helps you guys claim religion is violent. The truth of the matter is Islam has got nothing to do with Christianity. Researching Mohammad’s child wife - Aishya and his brutality on his own people would tell you why. Well, the real issue here is this…..
“The sun set on the 20th century more than four years ago but you can still see a blood-red glow on the horizon. The century that saw unprecedented technological progress also saw unprecedented slaughter. Previously, religion had served mankind’s deep needs for explanation, order, spiritual comfort and transcendental meaning. Now a new and hideous thing was summoned up to serve the same needs. The thing was ideology, and in a few decades it caused more bloodshed than millennia of religion. It was darker and more irrational, and contained within it something unknown to all the Religions of the Book: a death wish. Religious leaders, however bad they may be, however prone to hubris and hatred, are constrained by fear of God above and by ancient tradition and wisdom. Ideological leaders have no such constraints.”
Ref: Which kills more: ideology or religion?, Andrew Kenny
Unprecendent Slaughter - Do you get it? 300 million innocent women, children and men were (and still is) slaughtered for Atheism. When exposed you guys can’t stand the heat. Confront reality, ask the religious for forgiveness and show some humanity.
Bernard Keane: This article is nothing short of being a masterpiece. Olé, olé, olé. Apart from their proselytizing, their endless boring tirades trying to exhort the witless to vote Catholic and their using Christ to justify everything, they are extraordinarily slow to use their beloved statistics if there is a negative attached. Catholicism is the overwhelming ‘religion of choice’ in the land of OZ’….. No it ain’t, Atheism out-guns Catholicism by eight percent. An unpleasant fact the Catholics loathe and dismiss atheism as not being a religion. This change in Australian beliefs has come about despite the Catholic Church’s banning of birth control.-Oh yes, most of us have heard about the Catholic system of Birth Control. Which is one of the reasons we have mass starvation, and Global Warming.
Then we have the moral values of the Catholic Church. All those men in cassocks, kindly faces beaming down at children, wondering which boy in the class might have the best ‘b*ttom like a pe*ch.’ Then, when one of them gets sprung, it’s like the coming together of a million Ravens. All the Holy Romans rushing in, defending the guilty party. This is religion? As I said in another part of Crikey; “it is in the interests of Catholicism to drag everything and everybody down to the lowest common denominator. Hence the great ‘Australian chip-on-the-Shoulder Syndrome’. Why don’t they stick to b*ggery? At least that doesn’t reek of condescension. It’s an unpleasant fact that Catholics get more out of life defending the indefensible, rather than enjoying this wonderful planet. And that my friends, equals a very sick and foetid religion.
Bernard,
The new (not new really) “intolerant secularism” is NOT typical bollocks, Bernard. My research tells me it is brutal. All you need is the courage and the intellectual and professional honesty to admit it. I know it is hard for secularists or Atheists (well it is one and the same, the difference is the packaging) to admit it. This is what is going through your mind. “How can the elitist crowd you know ppl who are into so called reason and science be intolerant?”
Bernard, Secularism is not just about the separation of Church and state. Today it is the most intolerant ideology that is used to repress the religious and freedom of speech. It is a state tool to impose Atheism through the public institutions like public schools, media etc. Many in media today are the representatives of Atheist religion (yep, Atheism is a religion in Australia and U.S).
By the way here is a few (I can list heaps more) examples of modern secular/Atheist intolerance/violence. How would you justify this secular/Atheist intolerance. Not bad even Atheists have “jihadists” who wouldn’t mind strapping a bomb for secularism/Atheism.
Have a look at what the secularists/godless are up to and you can draw your own conclusions if we are safer from bloodshed in a secular/Atheistic world.
ATHEIST BIGOTS
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“As an Atheist I find many fellow Atheists very bigoted. Although I don’t believe in God, I don’t use that as an excuse to bash Christians for their beleifs as many do. I have never heard a Christian say ban Atheism unlike many Atheists wanting to ban religion. Learn to accept differing opinions.”
Posted by: Another Atheist of Brissy 06:33pm Thursday 26th June
http://tools.goldcoast.com.au/yoursay/comment_all.php
SECULAR/ATHEISTIC VIOLENCE
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
ANKARA: Turkish authorities have detained at least 21 hardline nationalists, including two prominent retired generals, in a widening police investigation into a suspected coup plot.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the detentions were linked to the investigation into Ergenekon, a shadowy hardline secularist group suspected of planning bombings and assassinations calculated to trigger an army takeover.
“It is not the AK party they cannot tolerate - what they can’t tolerate is democracy, the national will, the people’s feelings and thoughts,” Mr Erdogan said.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23959304-2703,00.html
JamesK, I’m now agreeing with most of what you’ve just said. I agree that natural evolution is not proof of atheism, although many religious people reject natural evolution because it denies their religion. For me, however, it follows that we have developed religion as part of our own natural evolution, and I reject it as being nothing more than a half-good, half-bad fiction. I’ve already stated on this page that I’m not opposed to WYD per se, and you are correct that a religious festival which makes people feel better has some good qualities. Where we differ is that I strongly support the NoToPope coalition’s right to raise some inconvenient details about the church as loudly as they wish. If the church was more honest about its failings, I might have a different view about this too.
Connor,
Quote “Atheist “belief system”, as you errantly call it,” Unquote
I am not in a intolerant delusionist like Atheist Pope Dawkin or Hitchens or the Atheist MULLAH Harris. Here is why I say “Atheism” is a belief system. To start off “Atheism” is a religion in Australia and U.S.
Atheism is more than a belief. It is an ideology/doctrine, a belief system and a lifestyle. In a nutshell it is values based.
Atheism, in this day and age when religion is all around us, is not simple non-belief. Ignorance is non-belief. Atheism is a conscious decision to disregard the gods and theology proposed in different religions.
It’s disbelief. It’s making a stand and saying, “Your theistic belief system is bunk, and here is why I think so”. The irony is that such a stance is the creation of another belief system, which can turn itself into a religion.
a) Athiesm is certainly an IDEOLOGY.
Here is what I mean when I say atheism is an ideology…….
1 The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.
BASIC DOCTRINE’S OR TENETS OF ATHEISM
There is no definitive atheist organization that defines the absolutes of atheism, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t some common, there are basic principles that atheists, as a whole, tend to adopt. Listed below are some of them.
Pease note, however, that not all atheists accept all of these tenets.
Believes -
1. There is no God or devil.
2. There is no supernatural realm.
3. Miracles cannot occur.
4. There is no such thing as sin as a violation of God’s will.
5. Generally, the universe is materialistic and measurable.
6. Man is material.
7. Generally, evolution is considered a scientific fact.
8. Ethics and morals are relative
Continued………
dear zac(hariah) you must have missed this post completely. go back to trolling the Your Say pages of your idealistic rag the OZ. nighty night…
zac, you are completely deluded - millions upon millions of people have been murdered in the name of your “god” - the inquisition, the witch burnings, the middle ages, the crusades, imperialistic conquering of the world, indigenous genocide, not to mention the number of people murdered by US backed despots since the formation of the CIA in 1947, oh yeah lets not forget the current war on terror, the million plus dead in iraq because of the sadist brother religions of christianity , islam & judaism. your god is as fraudulent as your understanding of history
Venise, leave the poor woman alone! Back to the pit.
Nice work, Bernard.
All religion, whether it is of a Christian, Islamic, or any other bent should be deposited directly into the trash. They are manifestations of man’s desire to control, our collective inability to admit our own mortality, an attempt to lift our species to some spurious designation of importance above all else, and are echoes of our animistic heritage when astrological bodies such as the Sun, Moon, and otherwise did indeed appear to be miraculous and god-like without the benefit of science to prove otherwise.
For as much as adherents to these mythologies feel that their beliefs are somehow beneficial to the human species, they are instead massively negative and oppressive. How much more could we have achieved or done by this stage if we had been able to throw off the shackles of religion centuries or millenia ago? Certainly, Galileo’s genius would have been far more warmly received (sans stake burning).
Nor is it just in the scientific arena that we would have benefitted. Humanity would be in a much improved condition if all people were provided with an opportunity to think, rationally argue, and constructively criticise the world around them. To be able to frankly question dogma. Unfortunately, religion and religious politics (that’s probably a tautology) ensures that many do not have that opportunity.
Far more moral and admirable is the woman or man who is able to selflessly give of themselves without the need of heavenly reward nor the fear of wrathful damnation to motivate them to acts of charity or to display respect their fellow man.
Despite my abject distate for all religion and my preference to see it eradicated, I suspect that it is presently as intrinsic to our species as Fear.
That, of course, squarely declares my opinion of current events and the expenditure of tax payer money on this Dog & Pony show. I can only innocently gather that the Catholic Church must be a little short of cash.As for members of the 4th Estate jumping on the bandwagon, well.. I have long given up expecting anything worthy of that mantle coming from such members.
Bernard, excellent stuff. I was personally very dissapointed with SBS last week when on the World News they read from the catholic guide book about the Pope ‘at the age of 14 being forced to join the Hitler Youth’. Now whether or not he was forced is debateable (many German youth choose not to join, accepted at great risk). The Vatican showed itself adapt at re-writing history with the previous Pope and his conduct during the war but I would expect that a government run broadcaster could at least have shown some independance.
I had an unusual encounter with some Oxford Oratory youth on a Melbourne train on Friday night. The girls were here for the Docklands mass on their way to Sydney. No, I was on the way back from watching different saints at the MCG. Even stranger was the fact that their parish priest commented somewhat favorably on my blog post, Of Saints and Sinners, the next day.
I’m expecting a papal apology this week for all the physical and psychological abuse heaped on us in Catholic schools during the 1950s and 60s.
Labor View from Bayside
“Far from religion being under siege in Australia, it’s a daily struggle to keep its influence out of our laws”.
Unfortunately I think the good fight has been lost - christianity is the basis for “our” laws and indeed ethics !
Bigotry towards Catholics is a little boring and should be left in the 1930s. I want to see more of the Stephen Mayne style of writing. Unfortunately a lot of the non-business stories read as though they have been penned by undergraduates in the middle of a “Direct Action” rally.
Having said that I do enjoy Bernard’s articles.
Connor Moran,
You guys claim Atheism is all about so called reason, logic and science and you have nothing to do with God. So you don’t need the existence of God to answer the following question do you? If God is the cause of all violence then a godless society should be a peaceful society. But history tells me that is not the case. History is soaking with the blood of defenceless women, children and men who were butchered to create Atheistic societies around the world.
Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Adolph Hitler and other atheist tyrants collectively murdered more than 300 million people.
Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that not all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of ATHEISM in the past few decades.
As far as I am concerned, every life is precious. However, it’s time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence.
ATHEISM, not religion is the real FORCE behind the MASS MURDERS of history.
For Atheist delusions check out the following book in Amazon….
_______________________
“The Dawkins Delusion?: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine “
by Alister E. McGrath and Joanna Collicutt Mcgrath (Hardcover - Jun 8, 2007)
http://www.amazon.com/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/083083446X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216083231&sr=8-1
_____________________________
God is No Delusion: A Refutation of Richard Dawkins (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/God-No-Delusion-Refutation-Richard/dp/158617231X/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216083231&sr=8-6
by Thomas Crean (Author)
________________________________
And this from the PIONEER OF ATHEISM - Anthony Flew
There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
by Antony Flew and Roy Abraham Varghese (Hardcover - Oct 23, 2007)
‘A number’ of statutes in Australian law derive from Christian morality? I’d say most of them do, Bernard. And that this is a good thing.
Well, Venise, we can have an Atheists World Youth Day!. I’m sure there is a phone box we can rent.
JJ, not a bad idea to organise an Atheist Youth Day (rather than an RC one). However, as there are something like 250 million non-believers in the world between the ages of 15 and 29, we would need a very large fleet of Dr. Who phone boxes to accommodate those who chose to attend.
Who in Australia is going to stand up and speak effectively against the spread of the gospel of Pell, the faith of Rudd, the happy clappers at Hillsong and the catechisms of Kelly? Their simpering cries of martyrdom, (that no-body in Australia listens to them, and that their voice needs to be present in all public debate), rings hollow when we look at the facts. When, prior to the last liberal government, did anyone notice an Australian Prime Minister or treasurer give pre-election speeches in fundamentalist churches? When was it tradition for a newspaper magnate to be given a public funeral and memorial concert by the government of the day in the Sydney Opera House? When was it usual for leaders of minority sects like the Closed Brethren to be given quick and easy access to the PM’s office at a moment’s notice?
We need to speak up long and hard against religious fundamentalism in Australia, to turn back the tide of its doctrinal faeces and to maintain the strong Australian tradition of justice and freedom based on human rights, not biblical preposterousness.
JH
Good for you Bernard. Frankly the rise and rise of temperature and sea levels pales into insignificance beside the rise and rise of the religious crazies - and the politicians who pander to them. I have a bumper sticker, acquired from the US, on my car that goes: “If you can read this thank an evolutionarily successful hominid”.
There were others more to the point but I want to make them think. And I don’t want my car torched.
Dave, you are jumping all over the place to avoid debating. So a cosmic accident is now a random accident? You quoted JohnJames not me.
I reference an article from Gerard Henderson about pope-bashing and give a long quote which specifically rebuts the puerile rationale of the “sneering secularists” in their pope bashing and you suggest I quote out of context or some other such nonsense.
You also suggested with respect to Hendeson and I quote: “As for Henderson, how predictable that he’s not in favour of op-shop dressed protestors. He might be agnostic but, like most others reliant on commercial media to make their living, he knows which side his bread is buttered on when it comes to judging WYD”
Which Dave is bollox……….. Henderson is writing in Fairfax’s SMH not News’ Oz.
I am not pedantic. Unlike you I’m being rational and moreover I do not insult my interlocutor by changing the debate anytime it begins to look too difficult.
Why are Spanish pilgrims rejoicing for their next WYD? Have they forgotten what happened last time the Vatican intervened. In the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834), innocent peasants who could not recite the latest Catholic liturgies were tortured and murdered. This was organised by the Vatican’s Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, which in 1965 was renamed Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Its head for 24 years (1991-2005) was one Cardinal Ratzinger.
Did he close it down and apologise? Far from it. He defended it thus (SBS TV program 20/7 “The German Pope: Benedict”)
“We do have a certain continuity” and “Remember, the Inquisition represented progress - people could no longer be sentenced without an investigation”. So the tearing of peasants on the Rack, the imprisonment of Galileo, and the burning of Bruno was OK by him.
Yet he is worshipped my millions. The world is in deep trouble.
That is why I set up the Protest Popemobile, and http://www.worldTRUTHday.org.
Perhaps the fact that Murdoch is an RC might have something to do with the coverage….
Apparently Venise, Joan does not want to debate a nutter about something intensely personal that happened to her 47 years ago…….
Apparently also the majority of mankind now and in history believed in a god, gods or a higher power. Others believe that there is no god. Others do not know but are open minded. A belief is only an operating assumption in the absence of overwhelming evidence or reason. But not for some people who have all the answers …..eh Venise?
hey zac
why is it your bigoted racist christian view believes that your god is the only god when as stated in a previous post here that aboriginal australians have beliefs that have been around eons longer than your religion. goes to show the absolute racism inherent in your beliefs. justify whatever you like but i don’t see a whole lot of humanity in religion that is anti-gay, anti-women, anti-choice and anti-life - you believe what you want to so keep it that way i don’t need to believe in what you believe. as for your big bang theory, why is it not just, if not a lot more feasible that the rainbow serpent is the source of creation? keep your bigoted views to yourself.
primo levi stated it correctly when he wrote “Auschwitz exists therefore god does not”. if we truly want to look at religious belief in the context of time, Aboriginal Australians who have been here anywhere between 40,000 and 120,000 years, have complex belief systems regarding their idea of ‘creation’ . in the realm of time, chrisitanity has only been here for just over 2,000 years , it really is only in kindergarten compared to dreamtime creation beliefs who would have completed a phd! why is it that abrahamic religions believe that their god is the only god? And to prove such beliefs they have murdered milions of people worldwide and committed genocide on indigenous people and their culture. all in the name of a god of love.
I’d like the good tabloids and broadloids of Australia to do justice to this event by reporting on;
1. The increase in condom sales in Sydney for the week
and in nine months time,
2. The number of unplanned pregnancies or failing that perhaps the number of sexual assaults.
Bernard, can you get in touch with Ansell and ask question 1 please? I’m sure Rupert won’t want to upset his chances of getting into Heaven (HELL for him, more like it).
John James, good of you to get to the heart of the matter. Your line ” If you can read this, you’re a COSMIC ACCIDENT. That’ll get the Intelligent design crowd going.” is an honest indication of your view of the matter, which is more than us atheists get from some creationists. It’s also the reason I’m an atheist. The extraordinary phenomenon which is life has its basis in the existance of DNA and other complex molecules which are involved with translating and replicating DNA. The success or failure of DNA to replicate itself and thus survive through generations depends entirely on how useful the effects of its translation are, or whether it can evolve into something ‘better’. This is a molecule with its own complex philosophy. The question of how this arose is comprehensively un-answered (as John Clarke says, journalism was in its very primitive stages back then), but possible solutions include random chemical reactions (what you term cosmic accident), arrival via meteorite from another source where this phenomena is better explained or the involvement of some form of intelligent designer (aka God). Various proponents all refer to different evidence to back their arguements. The bottom line is that, to my hopefully logical mind, the existance of any God seems relatively unlikely, and the existance of the Catholic God (and other bits of the Trinity) seems like a very long shot indeed. Just as genes succeed or fail based on a mixture of fitness, impact and being-in-the-right-place-at-the-right-time, so do memes. Religions are a superb example of memes. Some succeed, some fail. Not based on whether they’re ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ (logically, they can’t all be right), but on whether humans love or hate them. The lowest common denominator is the adjudicator here. Catholicism’s success is much more about its position on contraception and pleasing the meek than ‘God makes it so’. Religion does some good in the world and some terrible evil, but ultimately it seems to be a case of ‘my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend’. This is why atheists are at the very least concerned (and in some cases downright furious) about WYD. Your statement in a subsequent comment “enjoying the s*it out of life” is a neat summation of all atheism has to offer” is obviously only your opinion, but I couldn’t disagree more. Atheism is as difficult as being religious - we have evolved a need to feel that there is a heaven as a direct response to our evolutionarily successful urge to stay alive, and atheism is necessarily difficult for this reason. Bagging atheists will only make us more opposed to your religiosity, and you have to ask yourself whether this is the outcome you are seeking.
Perhaps the fact that Murdoch is an RC might have something to do with the coverage….
It really p…ses me off that the superstitious think that you have to have a belief in a big daddy in the sky in order to have a moral basis to your life. The answer is simple: self-respect. Or, as the late great humanist and author Kurt Vonnegut said, “Goddammit, you gotta be kind.”
Crikey has been mocked (Editorial - 14 Juy 08)?!? Shock! Horror! Tarred with its own brush, at the very worst. Enough sooking - more analysis. It’s what we pay for. Can’t find anything positive about an international gathering of Catholic youth? Even the Bikies get a pat on the back at Christmas! Brisbane city centre this morning was the scene for street singing, dancing, flag waving - pretty threatening stuff, huh? Sure isn’t that governent sponsored Schoolies that makes the Surfers business district a no-go zone for a week . No one drunk; assaulted; arrested - yet. Keep hoping Bernard. Some years ago Brisbane hosted the world Rotary convention; it got government support; they marched; we closed the streets. The sky did not fall. Bernard, if you’ve got an issue with Catholicism and you’ve moved on, please move on. Focus on the facts if you want to - cost of subsidy versus return on investment might be a good place for a rationalist to start.
Dave, I would suggest that the “possibility that biological life first arose as a random chemical reaction billions of years ago” is widely accepted (and by me).
That does not negate or promulgate a belief in god nor atheism. I agree that some ‘intelligent design’ arguments and the understanding of such arguments are the antithesis of intelligence.
I am uncomfortable by the ugliness of the ‘NoToPope Coalition’ and the ugliness of the Pell detractors. It reflects poorly on Australia as a nation if they are not stood up to by rational argument.
I may not be a Catholic but christian values are honourable and the church does much good here and worldwide and not just for their own congregation. So Pell echoes Costelloe….so what?
A worldwide community gathers in Sydney (in itself by nature a good thing) and celebrates worthy values. What is not to approve?
Dave Liberts: “It’s also the reason I’m an atheist” is all you. The ‘it’ refers to the ‘cosmic accident’ that you quoted from JJ’s post. Desist from wriggling!
Interestingly, your ‘confusion to the enemy’ response you would seem to suggest that far from being an atheist that you are in fact an agnostic.
Which is it Dave? Atheist or agnostic? There is a ‘cosmic’ order of difference!
In response to your obfuscating and distracting question: “Do you agree with Henderson and Pell that further overpopulating the planet is right as long as we’re upping the numbers of white Christians, JamesK?” :
I do not accept the prejudice inherent in the question.
I have made no reference to Africa’s population.
Venise: Away with you harlot! He is my priest and you can’t have him!
Don’t think I don’t know your game……. trying to deceive all innocents of the priesthood over to the Dark Side……..
Connor,
Atheist Beliefs -
— — — — — — — — — -
From a observer
33rd annual ATHEIST CONVENTION in Seattle, Washington, in April of 2007
Let me list here the experience of a person who attended the 33rd annual ATHEIST CONVENTION in Seattle, Washington, in April of 2007. He had a very interesting experience and he learned things he did not expect.
While sitting in the crowd, listening to speakers, and watching the atheists’ reactions, it dawned on him how utterly religious they seemed to him. He is not trying to say they believed in a God but they acted as though it were.
As he sat there, watching, taking notes, listening, he formulated a list he thinks is accurate and representing of what he saw at the convention. Have a look.
1.Creed
a) No God, anti God, Pro-homosexuality, anti-Christianity.
b) Atheism is a belief. I know that many atheists will disagree with this, but the atheists gathered around a COMMON BELIEF of no God or lack of God and the need to increase what they perceive as separation of church and state in America.
2. Crisis
a) Created a problem and offered a solution. The problem was religious oppression in society with atheistic ideals as the solution.
3. Assemblies
a) Gathered in groups with meeting times. Now, atheists don’t meet nearly as frequently as Christians do in their churches. However, they do have state meetings, national meetings, and regular gatherings.
4. Pulpit
a) The lectern from which speeches were made, their ideas were promoted, and their reasons for their belief system were validated.
5. Evangelistic
a) The atheists sought converts to their cause. They frequently spoke about getting the idea of atheism out into society, and to move people away from theism.
6. Celebration over converts
a) Rejoiced when converts to their BELIEF SYSTEM were announced. There was applause and excitement when there were announcements about people who had “come out of the closet” and announced their atheism.
7. Zealous for their cause
a) They wanted their cause and belief system expanded to the extent of changing America to reflect their thinking.
8. Exclusive
a) Only they have the truth. The atheists repeatedly spoke of how atheism was the truth and that theists and deists were ignorant of facts and reason.
9. Us against them mentality
a) There was a profound description of the division between atheism and theism with the atheists being the ones who were defending themselves against the intrusive theists.
10. Concerned about public image
a) This is normal. They were very concerned with how they were perceived and wanted to change their negative reputation.
11. Lack of critical thinking
a) This is common everywhere. Though they thought they were rational, by far most of the arguments and comments weren’t.
12. Misrepresentation of opposing views
a) Again, another common trait among people who gather in groups, have a common ideology, and see others as being less enlightened.
13. Voting block
a) The atheists mentioned voting as a group in order to progress their cause in society.
14. Infighting
a) This is normal for groups. We don’t all see eye to eye. However, they all held to atheism even though they had disagreements about some particulars.
15. Money
a) They didn’t have tithing, but there were plenty of things for sale. In addition, let’s not forget to mention how they sought donations to help cover the costs of promoting atheism, paying speakers, renting facilities, etc.
OBSERVER COMMENTS
I think it rather ironic that those who are AGAINST REIGION so much, are in actuality so RELIGIOUS themselves. I couldn’t help but smile and see the natural tendency of people to gather around an IDEA, develop a CAUSE, and then PROMOTE it.
ATHEISTS have gathered around NON-BELIEF and want that non-belief PROMOTED in society.
There seems to be a perception on the part of some readers that I’m anti-Catholic. I’m no more anti-Catholic than I am anti-Zoroastrian or anti-Mormon. For mine all superstitions are the same, and people are welcome to their delusions, as long as they don’t seek to regulate the behaviour of others on the basis of them, or draw on state support for them.
Unfortunately, the adherents of a number of religions - several brands of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism - are prone, in their more fundamentalist forms, to assuming a right to compel non-adherents to behave in a certain way, often involving the most appalling hypocrisy compared to the actual behaviour of many senior members of those faiths. Oh, and they also tend to treat women like shit.
Without these tendencies, these faiths would be strong forces for good in the world, since many of their adherents take seriously the primary lesson of love for others, and that can only be a good thing.
In 1961 while the then Pope and his cardinals were skating around the possibility of Catholic women being allowed to use the Pill I had just had my fourth child. An economic disaster. I went to see one of the priests where we went to Mass to ask what he thought the final decision would be. He said, “My dear, I am very sorry for you, there are more Catholics in the world than Protestants and there’s only one way to keep it that way, the church will never OK the Pill.” I thanked him, got back into my car and drove to my Presbyterian GP and got the Pill. I ceased to be a Catholic on that day.
Hi there - I’ve put down my Garnaut report for a moment to re-enter the fray.
There is a fair degree of vitriol from “Socialist Alliance” types and atheists being directed towards Catholics celebrating World Youth Day. I can see a degree of logic to some of the less hysterical comments.
We all live in a Western democracy that has christianity at its core. And the vast majority of Australians identify themselves as christian, with Catholicism the largest denomination (check out any census). What I find puzzling is the bigotry towards a celebration that has great relevance to Australians and has a positive message at its core. After all - the christian hordes didn’t loot and bomb their way up pitt street yesterday.
Here’s the thing - western culture is not perfect, but people from other parts of the world are voting with their feet to be a part of it. And christian tolerance is part of the package. We can all find negatives if we go back to the middle ages, but in the here and now there are some pretty nasty atheist governments around the world with zero tolerance for other beliefs. Plus some other religions are not noted for their tolerance when they are in the majority.
In fact under many other cultures around the world all participants in this forum would likely be put to the sword (or locked-up at the very least) - makes me think Bernard and his sneering acolytes should get down to Sydney and carry the cross in gratitude !
The Australian should be renamed Pravda for its rigid ideological line, day after dreary day.
Despite News Ltd’s full frontal attack on Kevin Rudd, not a day goes by without some snide attack, it has had absolutely no effect on Rudd’s popularity; look at today’s Newspoll. The right wing loonies at News Ltd are just pissing in the wind.
The timing of the ABC and Fairfax sexual-abuse attacks on the Catholic Church illustrates the inherent anti-Catholic bias in those organisations. It also exposes the hypocrisy of both organiaations who claim to be impartial in their reporting. While I will continue to boycott the unprofessional Fairfax, it is galling that some of my taxes will continue to be used to fund the unprofessional ABC.
JamesK, I honestly apologise for any vagueness of wording. I’m not trying to avoid debate, but I am acknowledging that when it comes to discussion of the possibility that biological life first arose as a random chemical reaction billions of years ago, what John James refers to as a ‘cosmic accident’ and I call a random molecular reaction are the same thing. The pro-Intelligent Design lobby have a different spin on this, but I was congratulating John James for not subscribing to their intellectual dishonesty. Creationism is an intellectuallly honest belief, I just don’t happen to support it at all.
As for Henderson, I don’t buy that the SMH are as concretely anti-WYD as you infer. Just as The Oz runs its share of left-of-centre opinion pieces to ensure some appearance of diversity and to ensure that some lefties still subscribe (I’m one), the SMH aren’t silly enough to burn all of their Catholic readers so running Henderson’s line is obvious. I can relate to Henderson’s article insofar as there are elements of the liberal Anglican church I’d be inclined to stick up for, for similar reasons to Henderson’s support of Catholicism. That said, I personally disagree with Henderson’s assessment of the Catholic Church’s response to priest abuse and position on condoms. Overwhelmingly though, I think Henderson is just using the debate around WYD to push his usual anti-ABC barrow and criticise protesters.
I found Pell’s statement that ‘the western world’ needs to catch up on its populating extremely distasteful because of its implication that the relative decline of white people as a proportion of the world’s population would be bad news for the Caholic church. I’m disappointed but not surprised that Henderson has avoided this in his article.
This so-called “celebration” is little more than a cynical propoganda event staged by a church in serious decline in Western Europe and other developed countries like Australia. “World Youth Day” was, let not forget, originally designed by the last media-astute pontiff as a clever smoke screen to deflect attention away from the dark reality that this shadowy and obscenly wealthy organisation is run by an elitist clique of self-serving, out-of-touch and extremely hypocritcal old men.
The propoganda pumped out in Sydney over the next week by the “infallible one” and his cronies will stand in stark contrast to their actions on the appalling and very real issue of child sexual abuse that strikes at the very heart of their organisation. The recent expose of how Sydney Archbishop George Pell cynically handled one such case should leave no doubt that the true purpose of this organisation (and, to be fair, a number of ‘protestant’ churches) is to accumlate and protect its wealth at all costs.
Dave Liberts,
Wrong. Hitler is certainly NOT a catholic. Here is why.
Embarrassed at the murderous legacy of atheist Communist regimes in the twentieth century, leading atheists seek to even the score with believers by portraying Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime as theist and specifically Christian. Atheist websites routinely claim that Hitler was a Christian because he was born Catholic, he never publicly renounced his Catholicism, and he wrote in Mein Kampf, “By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” Atheist writer Sam Harris writes that since “the Holocaust marked the culmination of…two hundred years of Christian fulminating against the Jews,” therefore “knowingly or not, the Nazis were agents of religion.”
How persuasive are these claims? Hitler was born Catholic just as Stalin was born into the Russian Orthodox Church and Mao was raised as a Buddhist. These facts prove nothing as many people reject their religious upbringing, as these three men did. From an early age, historian Allan Bullock writes, Hitler “had no time at all for Catholic teaching, regarding it as a religion fit only for slaves and detesting its ethics.”
How then do we account for Hitler’s claim that in carrying out his anti-Semitic program he was an instrument of divine providence? During his ascent to power, Hitler needed the support of the German people—both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussian Lutherans—and to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as “I am doing the Lord’s work.” To claim that this rhetoric makes Hitler a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself says in Mein Kampf that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bears no relation to the truth but is designed to sway the masses.
The Nazi idea of an Aryan Christ who uses the sword to cleanse the earth of the Jews—what historians call “Aryan Christianity”—was obviously a radical departure from the traditional Christian understanding and was condemned as such by Pope Pius XI at the time. Moreover, Hitler’s anti-Semitism was not religious, it was racial. Jews were targeted not because of their religion—indeed many German Jews were completely secular in their way of life—but because of their racial identity. This was an ethnic and not a religious designation. Hitler’s anti-Semitism was secular.
Hitler’s Table Talk, a revealing collection of the Fuhrer’s private opinions, assembled by a close aide during the war years, shows Hitler to be rabidly anti-religious. He called Christianity one of the great “scourges” of history, and said of the Germans, “Let’s be the only people who are immunized against this disease.” He promised that “through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity.” In fact, he blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution.
Hitler reserved special scorn for the Christian values of equality and compassion, which he identified with weakness. Hitler’s leading advisers like Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann were atheists who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.
In his multi-volume history of the Third Reich, historian Richard Evans writes that “the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in.” Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken the Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler’s government became increasingly anti-religious.
The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as “troublemakers” were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were simply murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers. Poor Sam Harris cannot explain how an ideology that Hitler and his associates perceived as a repudiation of Christianity can be portrayed as a “culmination” of Christianity.
Continued…..
JamesK, you’re a pedantic so-and-so aren’t you. Yes, the ‘it’ refers to what I’d suggest is a random event and JJ calls a cosmic accident. Different terminologies arising from different beliefs. I don’t think this is as big a deal as you suggest, but if you’re right then I can only apologise for not being clear enough in my language. Contrary to your denial, the Henderson quote you chose (out of his entire article) specifically referred to Africa. I simply sought clarification as to whether this was because this quote reflected your personal view. Your answer seems to imply it doesn’t (but it’s not very clear so sorry if I’ve mis-interpreted) which simply prompts the question why you included this section of the quotation - after all, this issue has been given national prominence by Cardinal Pell in the last 24 hours.
And Zac, mate, you’ve got a great future as a Catholic church propogandist. Seriously, you’ll make a fortune out of pilgrims to rival Mel Gibson. Shame about rich people and the eyes of needles etc. There are literally pages and pages of Hitlers quotes about what a great Christian he is, and the Catholic Church in the 1930’s didn’t do much to dispel this. It’s also interesting to note taht the last Jewish ghetto pre-Hitler was in Rome in the nineteenth century. Presumably, by your logic, this wasn’t anything to do with Catholics either. Atheists, or at least folk who reject literal interpretations of the bible and who have historically incurred the wrath of the Vatican for doing so, have given the world modern science. You might not regard it as much of an achievement, but I do.
Bernard said it better than I did-my entry was somehow destroyed-Atheists look at the world that the Catholics, Muslims, all other religions please fill in the dots……………and are sickened by the galloping over-population explosion; produced by women too stupid to think for themselves. Women are the world’s greatest polluters. They don’t question the divine(?) right of priests and their men to rule over them. To me surrendering my body to the dictates of the Church is utterly and completely grotesque. You use women like bees use drones. All religions are despicable. Also Atheists are loyal to their country. Catholics place the Pope above their country and Anglicans place QEII above all else.
JamesK; go back to your bigoted little dog-house. Does your priest enjoy a little b*ggery on the side? You should question him rather than vilifying the people who can think for themselves.
Thanks Bernard, I love a good anti-religious rant. It’s a bit strange here in Sydney at the moment, a little like being under seige, with road closures, sirens, helicopters and the like.
For further reading on this topic, ie the way religion has infiltrated our lives, and how atheists can actually have genuine ethics, I recommend Michael Onfray’s ‘Atheist Manifesto’. Be warned though as he does get a bit wound up and veer wildly between topics in an attempt to link X with Y…
EB
Oh, and that above comment should be directed at ‘Zac’ twice as much as JJ.
Brendan, your comments are pretty much spot on, in my view. Catholicism piously dictates strictures to control the masses, whilst creating a wealthy, self-centred autocracy that retains for those who mould the pilgrims, rights that they outlaw. These include homosexuality and paedophila.
Connor Moran,
Here is the link to ……
And this from the PIONEER OF ATHEISM - Anthony Flew
There Is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
by Antony Flew and Roy Abraham Varghese (Hardcover - Oct 23, 2007)
http://www.amazon.com/There-God-Notorious-Atheist-Changed/dp/0061335290/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216083231&sr=8-7
Frank Brennan and a few anglican bishops were the leading lights in the struggle against locking up children in concentration camps in the desert. Pell made one lame statement in 2002 after the massive hunger strike of over 400 innocent human beings locked in Woomera and then forever held his peace. Frank was tireless with forums, public speaking, books, pro bono legal work and so on. The Jesuits throughout Australia offered free education for young refugees ignored by the so-called christian parliament who legislated to commit this large scale crime against humanity.
Meanwhile millions of unchristian folk like me worked for years without asking for a thing to free those people from their prisons.
Our so-called christian country then went to the high court to make it legal under the law to lock them up for life if they refuse to leave even if they are born in detention.
The coalition members claim to be christians but they all voted to murder Iraqis on a grand scale.
Spare us all from this so-called christian country nonsense. It is aboriginal country that was stolen by a bunch of whining poms and criminals.
I confess (LOL!) that Michael’s praise left me a little disconcerted. Although it wasn’t quite as incomprehensible as that genuinely weird piece by Philip Jensen in the Herald today.
Joan Huggett: I was born an atheist, had a Damascene moment-to use a term that Catholics love- when aged 16 that I was utterly, and completely correct to have remained an Atheist. I will remain an Atheist all my life. Yes, I have died twice and recently was in hospital four times. Nothing convinced me then that there was a God. Nor will it ever. I’ve said this in order to make you realize that I’m not trawling for another religion. But I have to ask you some questions. Why did you allow a religion to be privy to your bedroom? You admit that you knew another child would be a financial disaster. So, what on earth possessed you to even talk about such a private matter; to a blathering priest of all people. (priest of any religion) What business of his was it what you and your husband did in bed? If all Catholic women are so thick then they deserve every child they get. I’m sorry, but the Catholic church certainly chooses its victims with extraordinary care. Doubtless your parents were Catholics. Why did you just blindly follow the system without question ? Why did you listen, let alone follow what an old fag in a cassock told you to do? Nothing can convince me that anyone, especially a woman, could be so full of doubt about herself that she obediently places herself in the control of another person. Did you have no pride? No shame, no sense of being private?
I can’t tell you I’m sorry for what happened to you. Nor, for once, can I blame the Catholic church. It was your decision, your body, your life. Obviously you believe there is a God, so why did you throw life back in her/his/its face?
Hmmmm I wonder……Bernard Keane or Paul Kelly for a balanced editorial review of a significant event (any significant event) in the nation.
Hmmm…who will it be?……sooooo dificult …but Paul Kelly wins the vote by a …….massive landslide.
Well would believe it? Extraordinary…no accounting for taste in the face of Mr. Keane’s extraordinary brilliance,
Bernard you need a holiday! Seriously….
John James: Oh dear! You really shouldn’t have a go at humour. It’s not your style at all.Dear man, stick to your rosary and your superstitions going back to the dawn of time; where Catholicism has remained ever since. And I will stick to enjoying the s*it out of life. It’s the best four letter word I can think of. Just as s-x is the best three letter word I can think of.
Abandon hope all ye who enter here!
“You will here many silly things said & if people are stupid enough to think such things nothing you can say will change that thinking or allow another point of view any currency” I am grateful to my father for this pearl given me some 60 years ago & his advice was “don’t try to change their mind”
This seems particularly apposite to a matter of opinion largely motivated by fear of death. For many any view other than theirs is too frightening to even admit possible.
THanks Bernard I thought the piece was provocative & clearly frightened those seeking immortality & they put a pea or two under the mattresses of those not prey for it.
zac, you are completely deluded - millions upon millions of people have been murdered in the name of your “god” - the inquisition, the witch burnings, the middle ages, the crusades, imperialistic conquering of the world, indigenous genocide, not to mention the number of people murdered by US backed despots since the formation of the CIA in 1947, oh yeah lets not forget the current war on terror, the million plus dead in iraq because of the sadist brother religions of christianity , islam & judaism. your god is as fraudulent as your understanding of history.
Go for it Frank! You sound like the sort of guy who watches alot of Dr Who! And Lewis, how about ” If you can read this, you’re a COSMIC ACCIDENT.” That’ll get the Intelligent design crowd going.
Well said, Bernard… I haven’t read such a well-argued case against the pious self-righteous snobbery that passes for Christianity for many years.
Venise,
There seems to be a reason why the “we are here by big bang for no purpose” and ” I am a ape” (these absurdities needs more faith than the religious to believe) - darwinian mythological crowd are gnashing their teeth. Check this out…..
“But why exactly do atheists have their knickers in a knot these days? I mean its not like they have ever been the majority in the landscape of humanity. Indeed, from what we can tell they have always been a tiny minority. Maybe that’s why they are so angry. I mean we are supposed to be not only in the age of reason, we are supposed to be in the space age, ‘boldly going where no one has gone before’. And maybe this is one reason for the proud man’s contumely. They just can’t understand why people are still bothering to believe all this ‘religious’ stuff. Their attitude is so very different from that chronicled in John Updike’s ‘In the Beauty of the Lilies’ where someone gradually loses their faith, and ends up sad about it. Nope, the attitude of these folks is “Flame On!” to borrow a phrase from one of my childhood Marvel Comic heroes. And ‘me thinks they protesteth too much.’
Angry Apostles of Atheism Attack
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/01/angry-apostles-of-atheism-attack.html
How much more of this tiresome twaddle must we endure from Bernard Keane? When he writes on other matters he usually has something worthwhile to say, but Catholicism causes him to slip a cog. If he must write pieces like this, he should send them to The Australian Rationalist rather than inflict them on Crikey readers.
Zac, once you start from “God Exists”, all the Atheist “belief system”, as you errantly call it, suggest is that the onus is on you to PROVE that God Exists. Good luck, and to all the WYD delusionists.
As I prepare for my afternoon session of self-flagellation, I seek inspiration from Bernard & his followers. They too are well aware of the perfidy of the papacy:
“Being in Sydney…a little like being under seige, with road closures, sirens, helicopters”. - Yes, save us !
“Coalition members claim to be christians but they all voted to murder Iraqis on a grand scale”. - Not sure of relevance or accuracy, but Yes, Yes !
“Spare us all from this so-called christian country nonsense. It is aboriginal country that was stolen by a bunch of whining poms and criminals.” - That’s the spirit !
“Murdoch is an RC”. - Oooh yes, again, not sure on accuracy, but if it were true it would explain it all !
“I was personally very disappointed with SBS last week” - Yes…so are we all…they should be with us !
“Minority sects like the Closed Brethren…given quick and easy access to the PM’s office at a moment’s notice” - Outrageous we MUST stop them !
“We need to speak up long and hard against religious fundamentalism in Australia” - Umm..haven’t witnessed any stonings in Australia Square recently but YES, YES.
How dare the papacy spread a message of tolerance & goodwill. How dare they be well behaved and inject funds into the Australian economy - don’t they know the end of the world is nigh ? Now, where did i put my Garnaut report ?
Just wondering Bernard… did you write this particular article for a bet? Something along the lines of “I bet I can be even more pompous, tedious and self-righteous than those I despise”?
And no, I’m not a Christian.