Comments on: Who cares, they’re only Palestinians

By: Frank Birchall

Frank Birchall — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Israeli governments of the past 60 years, by their oppressive, ruthless and selfish treatment of the Palestinians, have done more to dishonour the memory of the Jews who died in the Holocaust than any of the hostile Middle Eastern countries. However, we must not forget the debt owed to Israelis, like Yesh Din, who stand up courageously for human rights and true democracy .

By: Mirek

Mirek — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Of course, Rudd would say that; by his own admission, he is `passionate` about Israe. However, it`s not just because he is `afraid` of the Zionist lobby, it`s de rigeur if if you are a servile ally of the US, the way successive Australian Governments have been.

By: Frank Birchall

Frank Birchall — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

With respect, Steve, all that John James says is not “quite correct”. His references to “Arab cut-throats” are nothing more than crude racist slurs. The rest of his comments, as you point out, are simply an attempt to divert attention from the point of the article. John kindly adds the obligatory paranoid rant about the so-called “Left”. Israel might well say “With friends like John, who needs enemies?”

By: JohnJames

JohnJames — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I think Israel does remarkably well in maintaining the open society that it does given the band of Arab cut-throats with whom it has to deal. Here you begin to see the Left in all its glory when it aligns itself, as it always does, with the cut-throats. Israel has a mult-party democracy, an open and free press, an independent judiciary, freedom of religious expression and of course groups like Yesh Din operate with impunity. Can you imagine a similar group operating under the auspices of Hezbollah or Hamas? Israel returned the Sinai to its vanquished foe , Egypt, and has attempted to assist Lebanon deal with Syrian terror as Muslim and Christian opponents of Syria are murdered. But for Hamas, a palestinian state would be much closer to fruition.

By: James O'Neill

James O'Neill — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

To call Israel a “democracy” is farcical as a number of respected commentators have noted for years. Quite apart from its appalling treatment of ther Palestinians Isreal is consistently defying UN resolutions; it has defied a ruling of the World Court; it continues to build a wall (rarely shown on tv for what it is); it continues to confiscate Palestinian land for its “settlers”, it continues to bomb and otherwise attack its neighbours; and it continues to be the major source of agitation for policies that enable its expansion of territory and influence for a ‘greater Isreal” as set out in documents over the years.
In truth it is no more a democracy than Zimbabwe but it continues to get a free ride from the Australian Press and politicians like Rudd who are more afraid of the local Israel lobby than they are concerned for the legitimate rights of one of the most appalling oppressed groups anywhere in the world.
Who cares? I do and it enrages me that the Australian government cares so little.

By: John James# 3

John James# 3 — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

“Its a fool or a bigot who sets their benchmark to the performance of others” So kevin, tell me what the benchmark is for the Arabs. Or is only the Jews who have a benchmark to meet?

By: Ev

Ev — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

John James, are you suggesting that, just because many Arab nations are autocratic, it gives Israel the right to treat its own indigenous civilians like dogsh*t? If Arabs torture their civilians, that therefore gives Israel the right to torture its civilians?

If so, it shows that you really have no Jewish morals. Or Christian or Moslem ones either. Real Jews believe that G-d has set down certain standards of behaviour which aren't determined by some relativist measure of what others do.

From your language and logic, I can only conclude that, whatever you are, you certainly couldn't be a proper Jew.

By: steve martin

steve martin — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

John James #3: Of course the Arabs should have benchmarks to meet if they are to become democracies.But to imply that that Israel,already a democracy doesn't have to be any better than an Arab autocracy like Egypt, or Syria is silly. It's like schoolboys saying "he started it first" or being challenged saying "he's worse than me". It's irrelevant.
Israel is a democracy albeit apparently run by pretty corrupt politicians, but what's new,we have a few here in Australia.
Whatever the way that Israel came into existence,and there were some pretty terrible events at the beginning,the fact is that Israel is de jure a state;and as such is entitled to defend itself against terrorists and/or other states..
But for a deocracy to have it's Supreme Court to rule that torture was permissible in exigent circumstances is not the mark of a domocratic society.
Nor is the continuing dispossesion of Palestians from their internationally recognized land to make way for illegal settlements.
Nor it is the mark of a democracy to inflict communal punishment in reponse to terror attacks; apart from anything else it's illegal under international law.
There is much more that could be written about abuse of legal process by the Israeli authorities.
It really is a shame because as you say Israel is a denocracy,albeit a flawed one if some of it's citizens are not equal under the law in practice.
It's I suppose natural after the abandonment of the Jewish people and the resulting holocaust if they look trat with contempt the opinions of those countries that abandoned them in the 1930s and 40s.

By: Stephen Wong

Stephen Wong — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

To John James: Is it because of Hamas that Israel is continually building new settlements?

By: JohnJames# 2

JohnJames# 2 — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Frank, Kevin , Show me the Arab state which is a multi party democracy, which has regular elections in which there is freedom to dissent and which respects human rights? Show me which Arab state surpases Israel. About the closest you’ll come is Iraq, and, boys, we dont want to discuss why that is, do we? You guys are a little like Thabo Mbeki dealing with Robert Mugabe, two heroes of the revolutionary Left, straining out gnats while you swallow camels! ( Arab camels ) .
Arafat was corrupt as is Fatah, that’s why Hamas prevailed. Hamas and Hezbollah are surrogates for Iran whose President has suggested israel should be wiped off the face of the earth while he continues to develop nuclear weapons and flout the IAEA much like Saddam, whom you boys apologise for regularly, also resisted UN inspection teams.

By: steve martin

steve martin — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

All that JohnJames says is quite correct but the point of the article is that Israeli Palestinians are not receiving the benefits of Israeli democracy.

By: John James# 3

John James# 3 — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Wow, That’s a first for me! Being accused of being a secular Jew. But I think some of you ‘lovers of democracy’, qualified though that may be, have lost the thread of this exchange. Several of the postings described israel as being ” like Zimbabwe”, ” intellectually and morally corrupt’ and denied it was or is a democracy even “Nazis” ( Bizarre! ) Of course countries can improve, that’s part of the human condition, but Israel is doing remarkably well in not preventing democratic exchange when all its neighbours are trying to destroy Israel or are indifferent to its survival and are stifling any attempt at the openess we demand of Israel. Surely a large part of the difficulties in the Middle east would be avoided if the Arabs were as open as Israel.
When we were at war we deprived German and Italian Australians of some of their liberty because it was considered necessary to secure the civilian population safety.
The new settlement issue is fiercely debated within Israel itself. Sharon withdrew Israeli soldiers from Gaza and tore down some Jewish settlements. Some of the hard line Jews regard Sharon as a traitor. Thats why Rabin was assassinated. So, lets insist on benchmarks, but for all the players!

By: Kevin Charles Herbert

Kevin Charles Herbert — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

John James: it's a fool or bigot who sets their moral compass according to the performance of others. Your response sounds remarkably like the shrill NSW Jewish Board of Deputies, or AJAC, response to criticism of any substance. Or like the Israeli Nazis who jackboot their way around the region, bent on revenge against... anyone...'cos we'll kill anyone who doesn't meet our expectations.

As for the validity of all of your latest points, Israel has always been the prima facie militiarist bully boy in the region, or instigator, while the hapless, badly led, fragmented Arabs & Palestinians continue to the poorly armed victims.

Despite Anthony Cordingly's blanket rejection during the Q & A during his visit to the Lowy Institute, of the possibility of Israel returning to its pre 1967 borders , there will be no lasting peace until that occurs. The 41 year war continues, and will do so until:

a) there's nuclear stand off over Israel OR
b) the pre 1967 borders are observed.
c) The water supply is returned to the region

It's quite simple really..for everyone except the idiot Israeli militarists.

By: steve martin

steve martin — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

It is worth reading “Breaking the Silence - Soldiers testimonies 2005-2007” on some of the events occurring in Israel.
The web address: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/index_e.asp
is worth a browse.

By: Ed

Ed — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I don’t care whether you are religious or not. If the state you call “Jewish” and whose actions you support does not behave in accordance with Jewish values, it cannot be called a Jewish state. Judaism isn’t about nationality or race. It is abouit values.