Comments on: Fiddling with excise as the world burns http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/ now with extra source Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:14:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: ADW http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20497 ADW Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20497 If you want to understand what's driving the oil economy, and why Rudd, Nelson, Brown et al are hopelessly inept in their responses to it, take the time to wade through this. Once you start to try to understand what's going on and, and why, it makes frightening sense. By the way, high prices are not the result of financial speculation in oil futures, as we keep being told by mainstream media.<br />http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/4007#more If you want to understand what’s driving the oil economy, and why Rudd, Nelson, Brown et al are hopelessly inept in their responses to it, take the time to wade through this. Once you start to try to understand what’s going on and, and why, it makes frightening sense. By the way, high prices are not the result of financial speculation in oil futures, as we keep being told by mainstream media.
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/4007#more

]]> By: Lucy http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20498 Lucy Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20498 Firstly, Bernard, man, you've been ON recently. Secondly, to the commenters, here's the thing. I don't doubt that Rudd would love to move on and I also think it's sickening that Certain Media Outlets are pouring, er, fuel on the fire by covering fuel price rises as if they were, you know, Iraqi casualties of wa... I mean, gold medals won by an Australian swimmer. But you can't put this all on the media, nor on the Opposition. Rudd campaigned on fuel prices; he never explicitly promised to lower them, because he's not a frigging idiot, but he certainly did get plenty of mileage out of sharing Bruce-n-Bev-the-Tarago-drivers' pain before the last election, so he can't wriggle out of this one that easy. I would love to wake up tomorrow and see a RUDD TO DRIVERS: SUCK IT UP headline in the DT, but I'm not holding my breath. Firstly, Bernard, man, you’ve been ON recently. Secondly, to the commenters, here’s the thing. I don’t doubt that Rudd would love to move on and I also think it’s sickening that Certain Media Outlets are pouring, er, fuel on the fire by covering fuel price rises as if they were, you know, Iraqi casualties of wa… I mean, gold medals won by an Australian swimmer. But you can’t put this all on the media, nor on the Opposition. Rudd campaigned on fuel prices; he never explicitly promised to lower them, because he’s not a frigging idiot, but he certainly did get plenty of mileage out of sharing Bruce-n-Bev-the-Tarago-drivers’ pain before the last election, so he can’t wriggle out of this one that easy. I would love to wake up tomorrow and see a RUDD TO DRIVERS: SUCK IT UP headline in the DT, but I’m not holding my breath.

]]> By: Liz http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20499 Liz Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20499 I like the swipe card idea. could you make healthcare cards plastic and use them? i'm sure some tech people could work out how to split the bill. people that have health care cards usually need them cos they have a low income. and if someone happens to lend their's to their sister say, even if she is not eligible, she probably needs it to help transport the cardholder cos they can't walk or something. i think most people don't like charity and don't usualy advertise their poverty if they can help it, so we should trust them to act accordingly. there's a cheat for every scheme, not just the ones that are designed to help people.<br />but then again, i'm just one vote, i already walk to work and i don't own a car so why should i care? I like the swipe card idea. could you make healthcare cards plastic and use them? i’m sure some tech people could work out how to split the bill. people that have health care cards usually need them cos they have a low income. and if someone happens to lend their’s to their sister say, even if she is not eligible, she probably needs it to help transport the cardholder cos they can’t walk or something. i think most people don’t like charity and don’t usualy advertise their poverty if they can help it, so we should trust them to act accordingly. there’s a cheat for every scheme, not just the ones that are designed to help people.
but then again, i’m just one vote, i already walk to work and i don’t own a car so why should i care?

]]> By: Tony Preston-Stanley http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20500 Tony Preston-Stanley Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20500 Remember the opening editorial comment.<br /><br />"Dear Sole Subscriber,<br />Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, February 3: <br />For too long Australian policymaking has been focused on short-term outcomes dictated by the electoral cycle ... If Australia is to effectively confront the challenges of the future, we need to develop an agreed national direction that looks at the next 10 years and beyond. <br />Which, obviously, would exclude any discussion of the petrol price. "<br /><br />Not quite. It should mean that the discussion of petrol price movements (and diesel price movements which are even more mystifying, with possibly greater potential impact on the economy consumers' participation in it) are couched in the longer term. On balance, as some correspondents have noted, the price looks more likely to stay up the come down. But..<br /><br />The political environment is not one in which long term thoughts are encouraged. Revvin Kevin 24/7 tries and should have the luxury of not having to place everything in re-election context but, as Crikey noted on the Henson brouhaha, his place is with the punters, if for no other reason than there are more of them than the artistic/working family/Mitsubishi types who are living in the here and now.<br /><br />Brendan's interests are all short term.<br /><br />Most of the print media and almost all of the electronic media pander to the short term and then move on. <br /><br />This might, however, be helpful, at least if no-one in government gets a further rush of blood to the head and tries to do something. While everyone is screaming, (and very few are listening) someone might actually be taking a bit of a long term view of the world, including oil product pricing, and cobbling together something that RK24/7 (and even a few of his Ministers) can consider in the relative peace of the Cabinet room - leaky as it appears to be. I think this might be what the taxation review committee might be up to. <br /><br />Steve: I think the idea of a Government swipe card has been put out there before. It has had various names including Australia card but the noise of the anti big brother lot frightened the pollies. And you can bet Woollies think this is way to maximise profits, not improve service.<br /><br /> Remember the opening editorial comment.

“Dear Sole Subscriber,
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, February 3:
For too long Australian policymaking has been focused on short-term outcomes dictated by the electoral cycle … If Australia is to effectively confront the challenges of the future, we need to develop an agreed national direction that looks at the next 10 years and beyond.
Which, obviously, would exclude any discussion of the petrol price. “

Not quite. It should mean that the discussion of petrol price movements (and diesel price movements which are even more mystifying, with possibly greater potential impact on the economy consumers’ participation in it) are couched in the longer term. On balance, as some correspondents have noted, the price looks more likely to stay up the come down. But..

The political environment is not one in which long term thoughts are encouraged. Revvin Kevin 24/7 tries and should have the luxury of not having to place everything in re-election context but, as Crikey noted on the Henson brouhaha, his place is with the punters, if for no other reason than there are more of them than the artistic/working family/Mitsubishi types who are living in the here and now.

Brendan’s interests are all short term.

Most of the print media and almost all of the electronic media pander to the short term and then move on.

This might, however, be helpful, at least if no-one in government gets a further rush of blood to the head and tries to do something. While everyone is screaming, (and very few are listening) someone might actually be taking a bit of a long term view of the world, including oil product pricing, and cobbling together something that RK24/7 (and even a few of his Ministers) can consider in the relative peace of the Cabinet room - leaky as it appears to be. I think this might be what the taxation review committee might be up to.

Steve: I think the idea of a Government swipe card has been put out there before. It has had various names including Australia card but the noise of the anti big brother lot frightened the pollies. And you can bet Woollies think this is way to maximise profits, not improve service.

]]> By: Nick Tr. http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20501 Nick Tr. Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20501 nic, apart from the fact you're criticising Crikey for quoting somebody, which is a little weird - of course it's a permanent change. No-one's trying to play semantic games. But you cannot ignore it'd be a miniscule tax cut to begin with - that will 'be swallowed up' (become ever-increasingly miniscule) within weeks. If you truly believe a tax cut needs to be made in this area, request the Government/Opposition consider a reduction in the GST rate on fuel - which would at least remain proportionate to the ever-rising cost per litre...but no-one's putting that idea forward are they. And since they're not, look at what happens when fuel goes up - the (fixed) discount taken off the excise - and more - is returned straight back to government via higher GST ('swallowed up'). It doesn’t matter a jot to the consumer’s wallet whether it's goes to federal/state. The point is, by itself, and because fuel costs will continue to rise - it's a futile policy which makes no sense – all you’ve done is stall the process by a week or two at most – meanwhile the GST revenue continues to increase in leaps and bounds (‘swallows it up’). Both sides of government need to be planning for/taking much more effective long-term action. As one of the other Crikey articles today points out, the Rudd government has managed to dangerously compromise its 'governing for the future' message (for the time being), by allowing itself to be drawn into this (very) short-term debate – the Opposition will drop it like a cold potato within months (or at least the instant they have a new leader, whoever it may be – can’t you see that?). nic, apart from the fact you’re criticising Crikey for quoting somebody, which is a little weird - of course it’s a permanent change. No-one’s trying to play semantic games. But you cannot ignore it’d be a miniscule tax cut to begin with - that will ‘be swallowed up’ (become ever-increasingly miniscule) within weeks. If you truly believe a tax cut needs to be made in this area, request the Government/Opposition consider a reduction in the GST rate on fuel - which would at least remain proportionate to the ever-rising cost per litre…but no-one’s putting that idea forward are they. And since they’re not, look at what happens when fuel goes up - the (fixed) discount taken off the excise - and more - is returned straight back to government via higher GST (‘swallowed up’). It doesn’t matter a jot to the consumer’s wallet whether it’s goes to federal/state. The point is, by itself, and because fuel costs will continue to rise - it’s a futile policy which makes no sense – all you’ve done is stall the process by a week or two at most – meanwhile the GST revenue continues to increase in leaps and bounds (‘swallows it up’). Both sides of government need to be planning for/taking much more effective long-term action. As one of the other Crikey articles today points out, the Rudd government has managed to dangerously compromise its ‘governing for the future’ message (for the time being), by allowing itself to be drawn into this (very) short-term debate – the Opposition will drop it like a cold potato within months (or at least the instant they have a new leader, whoever it may be – can’t you see that?).

]]> By: Antique http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20502 Antique Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20502 Politicians must know that petrol prices are high and rising all over the world - get used to it. The two most sensible solutions suggested to help the financially stressed are to increase availability of public transport, and take GST off the fares. I travel concession and buy multi-tickets, but a young couple travelling some 5 km from the city pay $4.10 EACH one way. They can return on the same tickets within two hours, which is small comfort if that doesn't suit their plans.<br /><br />Daphne Politicians must know that petrol prices are high and rising all over the world - get used to it. The two most sensible solutions suggested to help the financially stressed are to increase availability of public transport, and take GST off the fares. I travel concession and buy multi-tickets, but a young couple travelling some 5 km from the city pay $4.10 EACH one way. They can return on the same tickets within two hours, which is small comfort if that doesn’t suit their plans.

Daphne

]]> By: brian crooks http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20503 brian crooks Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20503 I cannot understand why people always expect a newly elected labor government to fix problems compounded by long term conservative governments in five minutes, can you visualize an economy under work choices, in a climate of rising petrol and food prices as well as interest rates, and wages being held down by draconian i.r. laws, thats what`s wrong with the U.S, dropping interest rates do not help people with none, or very low incomes, the end result is a major depression, a general, across the board wage increase is the only thing that can get the U.S out of the shit the neo cons have created, dropping fuel excise won`t work, people have to understand that oil is running out fast, so whats left must be conserved for the most important needs of society, and welfare should be for the needy, not the greedy. I cannot understand why people always expect a newly elected labor government to fix problems compounded by long term conservative governments in five minutes, can you visualize an economy under work choices, in a climate of rising petrol and food prices as well as interest rates, and wages being held down by draconian i.r. laws, thats what`s wrong with the U.S, dropping interest rates do not help people with none, or very low incomes, the end result is a major depression, a general, across the board wage increase is the only thing that can get the U.S out of the shit the neo cons have created, dropping fuel excise won`t work, people have to understand that oil is running out fast, so whats left must be conserved for the most important needs of society, and welfare should be for the needy, not the greedy.

]]> By: Chris Johnson http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20504 Chris Johnson Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20504 It's alarming to think Rudd would turn FuelWatch into a national policy. It's one of a number of home-spun projects trumped up by the ALP more than a decade ago to foster the images of its MPs as doers in their communities. If Rudd's dragged a flivver of these awkwardly simple and flawed notions into the national parliament he's cementing that old adage that hayseeds and bumpkins are a dime a dozen in Queensland. It’s alarming to think Rudd would turn FuelWatch into a national policy. It’s one of a number of home-spun projects trumped up by the ALP more than a decade ago to foster the images of its MPs as doers in their communities. If Rudd’s dragged a flivver of these awkwardly simple and flawed notions into the national parliament he’s cementing that old adage that hayseeds and bumpkins are a dime a dozen in Queensland.

]]> By: El http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20505 El Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20505 Maybe they should use the money to subsidise the use of electrical cars or, even better, electrical vespas. Lots of families could then get rid of their second car. Is (way) cheaper to run and a lot better for the environment and gets a lot of cars of the road. Everyone wins.... Maybe they should use the money to subsidise the use of electrical cars or, even better, electrical vespas. Lots of families could then get rid of their second car. Is (way) cheaper to run and a lot better for the environment and gets a lot of cars of the road. Everyone wins….

]]> By: Nick Tr. http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20506 Nick Tr. Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20506 steve martin, it's an interesting idea...but I'm wondering how the system could be delivered at 'reasonable' cost and effort. A few million swipe cards nationally is not going to be cheap or quick to implement - witness the Myki debacle in Victoria and this would necessarily be a much larger operation. Bringing in your 'un-named' fuel receipts to Centrelink is of course no good...and whatever solution chosen, who qualifies? Those who own/have registered a car? There'd be many who don't own a car but regularly borrow one from parents/friends etc, do they still qualify? I'm not against it in principle, but just can't see it being workable. Not to mention, the millions of Australians not on benefits, up in arms at being left out, would spell political suicide. I'd think it might have to be everyone or no-one. steve martin, it’s an interesting idea…but I’m wondering how the system could be delivered at ‘reasonable’ cost and effort. A few million swipe cards nationally is not going to be cheap or quick to implement - witness the Myki debacle in Victoria and this would necessarily be a much larger operation. Bringing in your ‘un-named’ fuel receipts to Centrelink is of course no good…and whatever solution chosen, who qualifies? Those who own/have registered a car? There’d be many who don’t own a car but regularly borrow one from parents/friends etc, do they still qualify? I’m not against it in principle, but just can’t see it being workable. Not to mention, the millions of Australians not on benefits, up in arms at being left out, would spell political suicide. I’d think it might have to be everyone or no-one.

]]> By: Peter Campbell http://www.crikey.com.au/2008/05/29/fiddling-with-excise-as-the-world-burns/#comment-20507 Peter Campbell Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000 #comment-20507 The newly elected Rudd government has an opportunity to show some real leader ship during its first 18 months in office. They are squandering this opportunity by "me tooing" again on Nelson's ridiculous petrol price cuts. And Rudd says "there is no silver bullet for petrol prices". How about Federal funding for public transport and cycling infrastructure? (currently none is allocated) How about getting methane / CNG infrastructure out there - we have heaps more natural gas than we do oil.<br /><br />How about INCREASING the price of fuel with a levy to fund sustainable post-oil transport R&D - or just spending the excise they currently rake in on this.<br /><br />A race to the bottom on short term petrol prices is quite obviously absurd, yet this is the best they can do? The newly elected Rudd government has an opportunity to show some real leader ship during its first 18 months in office. They are squandering this opportunity by “me tooing” again on Nelson’s ridiculous petrol price cuts. And Rudd says “there is no silver bullet for petrol prices”. How about Federal funding for public transport and cycling infrastructure? (currently none is allocated) How about getting methane / CNG infrastructure out there - we have heaps more natural gas than we do oil.

How about INCREASING the price of fuel with a levy to fund sustainable post-oil transport R&D - or just spending the excise they currently rake in on this.

A race to the bottom on short term petrol prices is quite obviously absurd, yet this is the best they can do?

]]>