Comments on: NSW spending too much on World Youth Day? Pope a Catholic?

By: kate

kate — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

You’re right Tim, my language was a little intemperate. After all, it is so impolite to point out to people that their beliefs are baseles, their actions reprehensive, and their practices harmful to themselves and others. I will try to be more polite in the future.

Your assumptions about my schooling are interesting. Is it unthinkable to you that a catholic-educated child would be able to so comprehensively discard the indoctrination?

By: Bernard Keane

Bernard Keane — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

The “zombie messiah” crack was intended to get people thinking how absurd the beliefs of even a massively mainstream religion like Catholicism actually are. Not content with adopting the very intelligent, if somewhat derivative, philosophy espoused by the historical Jesus, the early Church crafted the myth of his returning from the dead and walking around inviting people to stick their fingers in his wounds before levitating into heaven. Otherwise intelligent, sane adults actually believe this stuff, and - much worse - our taxes support them to do so.

By: Tom McLoughlin

Tom McLoughlin — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Holy hell that’s alot of comments to digest. What I wanted to add as a reformed alter boy, never abused either, was - how can Iemma stuff up an ANZAC day solemn religious festival pic fac (NZ soldier statue on major landmark bridge, excludes relatives of esteemed artist and NZ citizens tripping all the way across the ditch). I just had to laugh at the foot in dog poo tv images of cranky folks on 2, 7 but not 9 etc. And another thing - I swear I saw smokin Joe Tripodi traipsing up the steps at St Peters Basillica (yeah really the one in Rome) in early June 2002. Or a swarthy gent that looks very similar. Damn hot day, still wearing double breasted dark grey. World Youth day pitch? Or just a cousin from the old country? Confession after a certain AD staffer in distress? Like religion itself, it’s a mystery.

By: Jason

Jason — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Nice try Peter Machi, however again it would seem your type will continue to try and pull the wool over peoples eyes by not being completely honest with you figures. Below is copied from the Australian Depart of Immigration website "... Visas to attend World Youth Day (WYD) will be free of government charges, and will allow a standard stay of three months. The Electronic Travel Authority (ETA) and the Tourist visa are the most appropriate visas for pilgrims attending WYD." Thus your $40M from fees is blown out of the water. Plus Pell is now saying that the pilgram numbers will be 225K, so your 500-600 and again your associated revenue blown out of the water. As of 29 JUne 2008, as reports on line in The Daily Telegraph in Sydney "...More than 132,000 pilgrims have registered with World Youth Day organisers. Another 64,000 registrations are partly completed." I might be wrong but that adds up to 196,000 (how many of these are paid up registrations - well short of the orginal numbers put forward and the adjusted numbers now being put forward by Pell. I also note that the cut off date was 1 June - what deal has the federal government done to allow late - including the above 64,000?

Plus the majority of pilgrims will be billeted in private homes and at schools etc and they pay for packages based on wealth of the country they come from - I'm not aware that the government or tax payer is get this money from the packages( obviously there are operational costs there too) and hotels are indicating they expect occupancy rates to by lower than there are normally at the same time - and again your associated revenue blown out of the water, private companies are also supplying food at the event, so your revenue blown out of the water again.

All of the follow up tourism boom has been tried before - particularly after the 2000 Olympics - it simply did not turn out in the dollars people like you push. Whether your are deliberately trying to be deceptive or not or you are simply following the leader you are WRONG and it's Sydney that will suffer. By the way what's the Catholic Youth Youth Days' deffinition of "youth"? And will they try to bodggy the numbers?

By: Les

Les — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

How much of the $85+ millions of NSW public money being spent on this function is being used to keep both Australian and visiting children and youths secure and safe from sexual assault by the many predatory catholic priests and brothers who will be attending?

It is clear from the well-documented history of paedophilia and sexual assault by priests and brothers in virtually every country of the world over many years that they will pose a far greater risk to our children than any potential terrorist threat.

What precautions are the organisers and the AFP taking to protect our children?

By: John James # 2

John James # 2 — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Agnostics “are not given” to anything!

By: Tim Wallace

Tim Wallace — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Hooley dooley, Kate, you sure are hung up on the God question. It’s like you asking me to provide evidence AFL is the one true code to in order justify the existence of the Sydney Swans or to allow the Fremantle Dockers to play at Olympic Park. Now personally I find League dull and uninteresting, silly even. But I don’t presume that because others think different they’re retards, and when the government lays on extra public transport and policing for the NRL grand final, and thousands of League fans traipse through my neighbourhood, I’m not outraged. You get what I’m saying?

By: Peter Machi

Peter Machi — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

test

By: Brett

Brett — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Go Daphne…I’m with you…spot on!!

By: Daphne

Daphne — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I am an agnostic, a belief system to which I religiously adhere. Do I qualify for tax exemption? Agnostics don’t find it necessary to clog up the streets so that they an be reassured that others share their faith in a trilogy of gods, represented by a celibate old man in a very expensive fgown and hand-made shoes. And agnostics are not given to pointless missionary statements, like blowing things up. Perhaps agnosticism should be taught at schools.

Daphne

By: Philip Comer (the unbeliever)

Philip Comer (the unbeliever) — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Good God. Let me be the first to Godwin this place and hope I don’t live to see the day when Kate and Greg drag all the believers and their Voltaire inspired lackeys off to the gas chambers. Hatred of your fellow man, or women is alive and well in 21st century Australia.

Back to the issue in question it seems the NSW government may have made a mistake in bringing World Youth Day to Sydney. So we live and learn. Down here when Victoria was in a state of disrepair Kennett brought us the Grand Prix and we’re still paying for it. And by crikey some of us await the day when we can crucify these occursed petrolheads on their axles of evil.

By: John James # 4

John James # 4 — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Yeh, but Mary Ann , Mithras wasn’t crucified, a punishment of great ignominy reserved for the worst of criminals in the Roman world. And Mithras has made no impact whereas Christ compels assent or rejection. “Who do men say that I am?” is a question addressed to human beings of every age.There can be no fence sitting, and dont you see alot of dills rejecting!

By: kate

kate — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Your sainted aunt and her friends may be doing some good (or may not). This is entirely irrelevant. There is no evidence that God created the universe. There is no evidence that life could not have originated without God. There is no evidence that the universe exists for the purpose of making human life possible. There is no evidence of an afterlife. There is no evidence of the Garden of Eden, a Tree of Knowledge or talking snakes. There is no evidence of the Israelites wandering through the desert. There is no evidence for a virgin birth. There is no evidence for a resurrection, or a bodily ascension into the heavens. There is no evidence of a soul. There is no evidence of answered prayer. There is no evidence of the miraculous suspension of natural laws. There is no evidence that the Bible was written by or inspired by God. There is no evidence for God whatsoever. Therefore, any doctrine which requires us to believe these things, and threatens punishment if we do not, is false.

By: Peter Hill

Peter Hill — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Mr Keane states: “Don’t forget that religious groups do not pay tax – including company tax, GST, FBT and capital gains tax”. Um, wrong. There is no such thing as “company tax” or even “capital gains tax”. Company tax is a euphemism for income tax paid by companies, and as far as I am aware, the CC is not a company. Saying the CC is exempt from company tax is saying they are exempt from CGT. Second, there is no exemption from GST liability afforded to religious groups, or any other group for that matter. The CC is paying GST on its taxable supplies just like any other institution. It just so happens that some of the supplies it makes are given concessional treatment, the primary one being the supply of a religious service, which is GST-free. That doesn’t really mean that much because the last time I entered a church I didn’t need to pay at the door. The point Mr Keane makes, of disproportionate concessional treatment, is there to make, but how about we stick to factual argument?

By: Garry de Vries

Garry de Vries — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I found Bernard Kean’s article overly cynical, sarcastic and critical. Throw away lines like “the govt. has gifted the Catholics to celebrate such bizzare concepts as transubstantiation, virgin birth and zombie Messiah’s” are offensive and then the predictable tirade about how religious groups are exempt from certain taxes etc. What about the role Journo’s play in building unity? Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy think about such things! Does Kean have anything constructive to add to the ongoing debate?

By: JamesK

JamesK — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Not content with politics our hero/villain ventures into religion…..Yes politics is presently so very bland and (dare i say it?,) politically correct! We need Keating!!!!

By: John James

John James — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

I think the Crikey editorial team are gripped by a ‘Papists-under-the-bed Syndrome’. Last week Alex Mitchell wrote a bizarre piece about the ‘sinister’ reasons for Geoge Pell having John Howard over for dinner and this week its Iemma and the Labour boys’ turn.
Seriously, Benedict is the spiritual leader of the largest christian denomination in the country and the recognised leader of the Christian faith world-wide. He is also a distinguished Head of State. He has just completed a visit to the United States during which the media largely ignored a concurrent visit by the British Prime Minister and devoted all attention to him, such was the interest. The President accorded him the honour of a White House welcome and opportunity to speak. He addressed the United Nations who also accorded him a warm welcome.
For Catholics, he is the Vicar of Christ, occupying the See of peter and therefore the Petrine Office, to whom Christ accorded the power of the ‘Keys’

By: Tim Wallace

Tim Wallace — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Crikey, kate. I reckon you’ll take it anyway you want. Actually I see evidence of God everywhere: there is a creation, there might be a creator. Science can explain the material universe up to the point of the big bang, but has no answer for how something came from nothing. At that point we’re into the realm of metaphysics. Possibly you think Christians believe God is an old man sitting on a cloud, and you seem to want a map to his address and experiments verified in a laboratory (lab results do in fact show spirituality being tied to brain neurology, which makes me wonder why evolution has equipped humans with a spiritual dimension since nature doesn’t expend energy of things with no purpose.) Your position kinda reminds me of the climate change skeptics demanding “absolute scientific proof” before they’ll accept evidence of human-created global warming. How about this: you provide me with hard scientific proof of love, compassion etc and we’ll take it from there.

By: Harry

Harry — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Mr Keane may need to get the full facts on taxation before he rushes into print. Then other side of the coin is that churches make a substantial contribution to society, which, if taken into account , would make for an extremely interesting balance sheet. Where the churches are engaged in for profit activities, then certainly they should be taxed. His description of Jesus as a zombie Messiah reveals his motivation.

By: Tim Wallace

Tim Wallace — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

So the real beneficiaries are public servants. If you think the cost of such services won’t be outweighed by the money those visitors will inject into the local economy during their stay then you’re the one harbouring outlandish economic assumptions.

5. The Catholic Church and other denominations don’t make profits; they use that money to run not-profit services like schools, hospitals, nursing homes, hospices, hostels for the homeless, support services for the poor and marginalised, and the like. And do so more efficiently than the government agencies. Or maybe you think DOCS is doing a great job. If you want to foster a sensible debate why not provide a breakdown of where all that money goes.

6. When all you agnostics can point to the voluntary, not-for-profit social capital that you provide that is comparable to that provided by church organisations then you’ll have a leg to stand on.

By: greg

greg — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Wow-wee, talk about cat amongst the pigeons! I love how christians in particular catholics like to cling on to historical myths as related by mr keane (virgin birth, zombie messiah etc) yet tend to overlook the recent history such as the inquisition, the middle ages murder of 9million women for ‘witchcraft’, colonisation & genocide of indigenous peoples worldwide! the catholic church is the richest organistion in the world, hell, all that gold they took, the artworks, not to mention collusion with the nazis in ww2! as profit making enterprises all religious orgs MUST pay tax. hell not only do they not pay tax but my taxes subsidise their schools and events like World Young god botherers day! as to the claim on not being misogynistic sorry but anti-abortion & anti-contraception = anti-women and lets not forget to add another ‘slight ’ intolerance - homophobia. simply put no public money for religious events of any brand! amen to that.

By: Bernard Keane

Bernard Keane — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

JJ, you shouldn’t have expected me to do something better than bringing the Pope back from Avignon?? WTF? Elegant segue into abortion, too. Is there NO topic on which you can’t find a foetophilic angle?

By: Tim Wallace

Tim Wallace — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Dear me Kate, I’m presuming you didn’t go to a Catholic school, so I’m wondering where exactly you learnt your own delightfully articulate bigotry and hated.

By: Mary Ann

Mary Ann — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

The religeon of Mithras was a misoginistic cult worshipped by the Persians for several centuries BC. Mithras was born of a virgin, (Anahita) the birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts, 12 apostles attended him as he travelled. He was god’s messenger of truth. He was buried in a tomb and later rose from the dead. Sound familiar?
Christianity is a cult and its leaders are powerful and greedy. The powerful and greedy will continue to exploit the ignorant and superstitious as they have done for thousands of years.

By: Mike

Mike — Thu, 01 Jan 1970 10:00:00 +0000

Mr Keane is welcome to his views about religion, and his comments on Churches and taxation are edifying.
However, he does himself no credit with the gratuitous description of “zombie messiahs”.
(Incidentally. do the staff of Crikey endorse this descriptor?) If he truly believes such comment is justified he should demonstrate his integrity by commenting in a similar insulting manner on the beliefs of a group which will not show Christian tolerance towards him, perhaps Muslims in Australia.